Are we living a double standard?

[Before you can make things better, you have to stop making them worse...]

If in an family relationship, or in a romantic one but pre-breakup:

When we invalidate their feelings, we're just being honest.

When they invalidate our feelings, they're being selfish and cruel.

When we lie to them about what we think or want, we're just trying to keep the peace.

When they lie to us about what they think or want, they're dishonest scumbags.

When they're uneasy around us, it's because they are sick in the head.

When we're uneasy around them, it's because they're sick in the head.

When they blow up, it's a "temper tantrum" or a "dysregulation" or "acting like a child".  

When we blow up, we are of course entirely justified, or at absolute worst, "Well, maybe it wasn't the right thing to do, but you can see how anyone could be driven to it because... .<insert whatever>."  

If they don't want us to go out with our friends, they are controlling and needy.

If we don't want them to go out with their friends, we're entirely justified because we don't approve of their friends, or think they're going to get drunk/do drugs/sleep around.

When we tell them what to do and how to live, we're just trying to be helpful.

When they tell us what to do and how to live, they are being arrogant and presumptuous.

If in an Unchosen relationship, or were in a Chosen one, but it has broken up:

If they check our facebook, it's because they're stalking.

If we check their facebook... .well, they haven't blocked us yet (or did but unblocked us later) so we have every right to.

If they are going out with someone new, they've replaced us because they can't stand to be alone.

If we are going out with someone new, it's because we deserve every chance at happiness.

If we focus on our own feelings, needs, and well-being, we're trying to recover.

If they focus on their feelings, needs, and well-being, they're being selfish and self-entitled.

If they badmouth us to others, it's a smear campaign.

If we badmouth them to others, we have every right to talk about our feelings.

At the core of all these things lies this bizarre assumption that we have the right to demand that someone feel as we feel, think as we think, perceive the world the way we do, and behave as we consider appropriate, while they have no right to demand the same of us.   Indeed, if someone refuses to do these four things and stubbornly persists in being themselves, we then accuse them of being mentally disturbed (when they may or may not hold irrational beliefs, but we obviously are holding some!), intrusive and overbearing (when they might or might not understand personal boundaries, but we definitely don't), childish (when they may or may not be immature, but WE'RE the ones having trouble with a crucial developmental milestone, that of Theory of Mind), etc.

Perhaps I have a different perspective on all this -- I am the child of a BPD, not the romantic partner of one.  But I can tell you that from my own experience, things become much easier when you stop looking at everything they think, do, feel, or believe as a manifestation of sickness or as further "proof" of how inferior they are to yourself... .which let's be honest here, is what it really boils down to.  (Ego, again.)  They're a completely different, three dimensional human being, with their own wants, needs, goals, and priorities, on their own journey down this road we call life.  If they don't like you, are afraid of you, or whatever, then frankly, they have their reasons, whether you agree with them or not, and you should accept that.  

Maybe the real question here is not why they choose to "vote with their feet" and seek out people and places they consider less objectionable, but why we don't?  Again, referencing most of the content of these boards, people post here day in and day out, complaining constantly about their partners, exes, parents, siblings, friends, and everything else.  Frankly, if we learned more about voting with our feet (rather than acting like we have some kind of duty to be in relationships with people we obviously neither like nor respect), I think we'd be a lot happier just in general.

[Lunira]

If in an family relationship, or in a romantic one but pre-breakup:

When we invalidate their feelings, we're just being honest.

When they invalidate our feelings, they're being selfish and cruel.

When we lie to them about what we think or want, we're just trying to keep the peace.

When they lie to us about what they think or want, they're dishonest scumbags.

When they're uneasy around us, it's because they are sick in the head.

When we're uneasy around them, it's because they're sick in the head.

When they blow up, it's a "temper tantrum" or a "dysregulation" or "acting like a child".  

When we blow up, we are of course entirely justified, or at absolute worst, "Well, maybe it wasn't the right thing to do, but you can see how anyone could be driven to it because... .<insert whatever>."  

If they don't want us to go out with our friends, they are controlling and needy.

If we don't want them to go out with their friends, we're entirely justified because we don't approve of their friends, or think they're going to get drunk/do drugs/sleep around.

When we tell them what to do and how to live, we're just trying to be helpful.

When they tell us what to do and how to live, they are being arrogant and presumptuous.

If in an Unchosen relationship, or were in a Chosen one, but it has broken up:

If they check our facebook, it's because they're stalking.

If we check their facebook... .well, they haven't blocked us yet (or did but unblocked us later) so we have every right to.

If they are going out with someone new, they've replaced us because they can't stand to be alone.

If we are going out with someone new, it's because we deserve every chance at happiness.

If we focus on our own feelings, needs, and well-being, we're trying to recover.

If they focus on their feelings, needs, and well-being, they're being selfish and self-entitled.

If they badmouth us to others, it's a smear campaign.

If we badmouth them to others, we have every right to talk about our feelings.

At the core of all these things lies this bizarre assumption that we have the right to demand that someone feel as we feel, think as we think, perceive the world the way we do, and behave as we consider appropriate, while they have no right to demand the same of us.   Indeed, if someone refuses to do these four things and stubbornly persists in being themselves, we then accuse them of being mentally disturbed (when they may or may not hold irrational beliefs, but we obviously are holding some!), intrusive and overbearing (when they might or might not understand personal boundaries, but we definitely don't), childish (when they may or may not be immature, but WE'RE the ones having trouble with a crucial developmental milestone, that of Theory of Mind), etc.

Perhaps I have a different perspective on all this -- I am the child of a BPD, not the romantic partner of one.  But I can tell you that from my own experience, things become much easier when you stop looking at everything they think, do, feel, or believe as a manifestation of sickness or as further "proof" of how inferior they are to yourself... .which let's be honest here, is what it really boils down to.  (Ego, again.)  They're a completely different, three dimensional human being, with their own wants, needs, goals, and priorities, on their own journey down this road we call life.  If they don't like you, are afraid of you, or whatever, then frankly, they have their reasons, whether you agree with them or not, and you should accept that.  

Maybe the real question here is not why they choose to "vote with their feet" and seek out people and places they consider less objectionable, but why we don't?  Again, referencing most of the content of these boards, people post here day in and day out, complaining constantly about their partners, exes, parents, siblings, friends, and everything else.  Frankly, if we learned more about voting with our feet (rather than acting like we have some kind of duty to be in relationships with people we obviously neither like nor respect), I think we'd be a lot happier just in general.

[jhkbuzz]

This is a really interesting post - one that I may need to go back and re-read a few times and think about some more.  

There is certainly some truth to what you say, but there is one vital component that you've failed to include in your discussion: the impulsive, often destructive behaviors of pwBPD.

My ex was chronically dishonest; both lies of commission and omission.  She was repeatedly unfaithful.  She was avoidant and emotionally detached. I won't bore you by telling you how good I was to her; overall I know I was - even as I can acknowledge my own warts, issues, and less than endearing personality traits. I was honest; I was faithful; I remained "in" the r/s and tried to repair it - even though she was avoidant and detached. I was patient and forgiving; she has had a lot of hellish experiences in her life and I understood and empathized with that.

As I go through your list, I don't agree that we always have a list of double standards; I think our reactions were often based on our experience of the behaviors of our partners.

When we lie to them about what we think or want, we're just trying to keep the peace.

When they lie to us about what they think or want, they're dishonest scumbags.

Yes, I sometimes lied to keep the peace - she was so passive aggressive that it was easier to keep quiet about what I needed.

When she lied it was often to cover her tracks with her affair partner(s).

At the core of all these things lies this bizarre assumption that we have the right to demand that someone feel as we feel, think as we think, perceive the world the way we do, and behave as we consider appropriate, while they have no right to demand the same of us.

I didn't want her to feel and think as I do; I enjoyed our differences.  But we were in a committed, monogamous r/s: one she pursued and was very happy to commit to.  Her infidelities were inappropriate in light of her own promises of commitment to me, not according to some arbitrary standard that I imposed upon her.

... .things become much easier when you stop looking at everything they think, do, feel, or believe as a manifestation of sickness or as further "proof" of how inferior they are to yourself... .which let's be honest here, is what it really boils down to.  (Ego, again.)

You know, it's not a matter of ego for me - and I don't think it's a matter of ego for a lot of other people on these boards.  Many of us are deeply wounded and traumatized by the behavior of someone who we thought loved us; someone we thought we'd be spending the rest of our lives with. I didn't fall in love with her because she was "inferior"; I didn't struggle with the end of the r/s because she was "inferior"; I struggle because I loved her deeply and she hurt and betrayed me more deeply than anyone I've ever known.  There's no "oneupmanship" here; just a desperate desire to heal and move forward. That doesn't include demonizing her; for me it includes understanding the disorder so that I can compassionately detach and let go. It also includes looking within myself to see what may need to be healed after the experience.

Don't misunderstand the "anger" you see on these boards as the ultimate destination; it is one of the healthy, normal stages in the 5 stages of grief. It's a necessary stage for everyone to experience, but not indicative of where most end up.

[cosmonaut]

At the core of all these things lies this bizarre assumption that we have the right to demand that someone feel as we feel, think as we think, perceive the world the way we do, and behave as we consider appropriate, while they have no right to demand the same of us.   Indeed, if someone refuses to do these four things and stubbornly persists in being themselves, we then accuse them of being mentally disturbed (when they may or may not hold irrational beliefs, but we obviously are holding some!), intrusive and overbearing (when they might or might not understand personal boundaries, but we definitely don't), childish (when they may or may not be immature, but WE'RE the ones having trouble with a crucial developmental milestone, that of Theory of Mind), etc.

I can understand your point regarding double standards and I think it's a very good one.  We can indeed sometimes have double standards in our relationships, whether BPD is involved or not.  Sometimes it is hard to see these sorts of behaviors in our own selves, and that's one of the major goals in our healing:  self examination.

I'm a bit confused on your characterization of BPD, however.  Do you not think that it is a disorder?  I'm just not entirely clear on how to respond, since I'm not clear on what you are meaning.

[Skip]

Perhaps I have a different perspective on all this -- I am the child of a BPD, not the romantic partner of one.  But I can tell you that from my own experience, things become much easier when you stop looking at everything they think, do, feel, or believe as a manifestation of sickness or as further "proof" of how inferior they are to yourself... .which let's be honest here, is what it really boils down to.  (Ego, again.)  They're a completely different, three dimensional human being, with their own wants, needs, goals, and priorities, on their own journey down this road we call life.  If they don't like you, are afraid of you, or whatever, then frankly, they have their reasons, whether you agree with them or not, and you should accept that.

I have to say that it took me two years into recovery to see this.

I do see some double standards as you describe floating out here on these boards. We all see it.  Some times it hard to face it - especially when we are in a very wounded state.

Why? I think Murray Bowen said it best "People select partners who have the same level of emotional maturity." Your examples demonstrate that.  Heck, I know I don't have personality disorder - I didn't do the things that she did.  I've had enough therapy to know I don't have a PD.  However, when I look back, I see the emotionally immaturity in myself.  It manifests very differently than hers.  I accept it. I work on it.  Life is better.

Lunira, your point is valid.  You're not telling us that its always a double standard (we don't want to look at this in black and white terms) or that these relationships are a level playing field... .rather that when we act badly (in ways we find unacceptable in others) or selfishly, we need to own it... .we don't get a "bye".  Bad is bad.

[cosmonaut]

I agree.  It's a good point.

It's also good to remember, that BPD is indeed a very real disorder, and that for most of us here the reason our ex left probably isn't just that they decided they didn't really like us so much after all.

Good things to think about.  Thanks for sharing that, Lunira.

[fromheeltoheal]

Cool post Lunira!

To me it's a progression.  The relationship ends, we're hurting, and it's easy and natural to make it all about the "evil them", screw the evil them, those b___es and asss, screwed up our entire lives, waa waa, poor pitiful me.

Then the fog clears and the anger wanes, sooner or later, and we start to get a more balanced view; OK, they're still evil, but now I see some things I screwed up too, and maybe, just maybe, I can start looking at owning them.

Then the focus shirts entirely to us, we own our sht fully, see how we can improve and become a better version of ourselves moving forward.  At that point the PD no longer matters, nor does the behaviors of a borderline, and we may just develop some compassion if they walk a really tough road.

So if I'd been perfect in the relationship, a picture of mental health, I would have walked away after the first date, but noo, apparently I had lessons to learn from a very unique teacher.  I say we accept folks wherever they are in the process, and nudge them along if they get stuck in a phase, as we nudge ourselves into whatever our awesome future looks like.

[Skip]

To me it's a progression.  The relationship ends, we're hurting, and it's easy and natural to make it all about the "evil them", screw the evil them, those b___es and asss, screwed up our entire lives, waa waa, poor pitiful me.

Then the fog clears and the anger wanes, sooner or later, and we start to get a more balanced view; OK, they're still evil, but now I see some things I screwed up too, and maybe, just maybe, I can start looking at owning them.

Then the focus shirts entirely to us, we own our sht fully, see how we can improve and become a better version of ourselves moving forward.  At that point the PD no longer matters, nor does the behaviors of a borderline, and we may just develop some compassion if they walk a really tough road.

Hey, fromheeltoheal, you sound a lot like this... .

The book looks at the complex emotions family members go through:

The Confusion Stage. Family members struggle to understand why borderlines sometimes behave in ways that seem to make no sense. They look for solutions that seem elusive, blame themselves, or resign themselves to living in chaos... .

Outer-Directed Stage. In this stage, Family members typically turn their attention toward the person with the disorder... .

Inner-Directed Stage. Eventually, Family members look inward and conduct an honest apparaisal of themselves. It takes two people to have a relationship, and it is important for Family members to better understand their role in making the relationship what it now is and what it can be. The objective here is not self-recrimination, but insight and self-discovery.

Decision-Making Stage. Armed with knowledge and insight, Family members struggle to make decisions about the relationship.

Resolution Phase. In this final stage, Family members implement their decisions [changes] and commit them.

https://bpdfamily.com/book-reviews/stop-walking-on-eggshells

One the most insightful parts of stop Walking on Eggshells. It really helped me early on to knpow that I was going to recover in stages that would look different from where I started.

[LonelyChild]

When we invalidate their feelings, we're just being honest.

When they invalidate our feelings, they're being selfish and cruel.

My uxBPDgf's feelings were not based in reality, so I could not validate her feelings without being dishonest. She thought her mom and I were having sex and was upset about it. How do I validate that while remaining honest?

She was upset that someome had raped her. But he hadn't, she was in on all of it (I saw the texts). How do I validate that without being dishonest?

The list goes on and on. I can't validate feeliings based on fantasies without accepting her fantasies as reality, which would make (and did make) me mentally ill.

When we lie to them about what we think or want, we're just trying to keep the peace.

When they lie to us about what they think or want, they're dishonest scumbags.

Yes, I lied to her to keep the peace. She could ask me "do you find this girl attractive." Saying yes (and being honest) would most likely result in her cutting herself, or trying to jump out the window, or throwing things at me. She also used stuff like that to justify being unfaithful towards me.

She CONSTANTLY LIED, not to keep the peace, but to cover up her alternate life, sleeping around, doing drugs etc. I didn't do that.

When they're uneasy around us, it's because they are sick in the head.

When we're uneasy around them, it's because they're sick in the head.

She was uneasy all the time, around me or not. Everyone (her FOO included) was uneasy around her, afraid that something would set her off. How could that be because of me? Your way of reasoning is broken, you're ignoring so many factors. Was everyone around her sick in the head because they were uneasy around here? What are you trying to get at?

When they blow up, it's a "temper tantrum" or a "dysregulation" or "acting like a child".  

When we blow up, we are of course entirely justified, or at absolute worst, "Well, maybe it wasn't the right thing to do, but you can see how anyone could be driven to it because... .<insert whatever>."  

The only times I blew up were when trying to resolve things, where she would constantly raise her voice and talk over me. I asked her calmly to stop, but she wouldn't, she just kept screaming at me. Until I raised my voice and told her to STFU and listen for at least 2 full sentences. She blew up ALL THE TIME. If she didn't get to watch what she wanted on TV, she would blew up. If I was 5 minutes late, she would blow up and accuse me of cheating. She, on the other hand, was ALWAYS at LEAST 15 minutes late, often times 45 minutes late for our appointments.

If they don't want us to go out with our friends, they are controlling and needy.

If we don't want them to go out with their friends, we're entirely justified because we don't approve of their friends, or think they're going to get drunk/do drugs/sleep around.

My friends = Actual friends. We did things together in a friendly way, we hung out. I tried to invite her, but she often refused, and none (yes, NONE, not a SINGLE ONE) of my friends liked her.

Her friends = Ex convicts, robbers, thieves, drug addicts, sex addicts etc. During our 2 years r/s, she replaced her ENTIRE friend circle 4-5 times. Her "friends" were not friends, but sleep arounds, abusers, etc.

Of course I didn't want her around trash like that.

When we tell them what to do and how to live, we're just trying to be helpful.

When they tell us what to do and how to live, they are being arrogant and presumptuous.

My life is working out. I earn some money. I study. I manage. I'm very likable. I'm trusted among my friends. We have very reciprocating r/ss.

Her life = No job, no income, no education (not even high school), no friends. Her apartment is filled with garbage.

Why the F should she be telling me how to live my life and not the other way around? Her life would be SO much better for HER if she'd listen to me.

If they are going out with someone new, they've replaced us because they can't stand to be alone.

If we are going out with someone new, it's because we deserve every chance at happiness.

What? How many do you see on here dating someone new early on? We're all broken down emotionally. We can barely manage a normal r/s after a BPD one.

If we focus on our own feelings, needs, and well-being, we're trying to recover.

If they focus on their feelings, needs, and well-being, they're being selfish and self-entitled.

This is just ridiculous. Are you sure you've been around a pwBPD? Do you know how extremely egocentric they are? They do not even grasp the fact that others have emotional needs.

If they badmouth us to others, it's a smear campaign.

If we badmouth them to others, we have every right to talk about our feelings.

Sigh. I never ever told anyone around me anything but the truth.

She, on the other hand, went around saying I raped her and whatnot. Which, of course, I never did.

Do you see the difference?

[Skip]

Do you not see any validity in this thread as it relates to the members here as a whole?

[LonelyChild]

Not much, no.

[Skip]

Ok.

My life is working out. I earn some money. I study. I manage. I'm very likable. I'm trusted among my friends. We have very reciprocating r/ss.

Her life = No job, no income, no education (not even high school), no friends. Her apartment is filled with garbage.

Why the F should she be telling me how to live my life and not the other way around? Her life would be SO much better for HER if she'd listen to me.

So, should either of you be telling the other how to live?  I think that is an example of question being posed here.

[Bennu]

Whilst I think I can see what you are getting at here, it is almost a philosophical extreme - the whole double standards thing is so extreme, that it seems as if you are turning this around to purely 'acceptance' and that we are all different, very different, so just accept it.

Yes we are all different - but basic morals and respect of another individual are part of being a (decent) human being.

The relationship that has caused me such extreme distress and PTSD that I came out of was littered daily with double standards, something I had never noticed so profoundly before - yet comparing those to other people who had severely hurt me in my life, there was only one other who stood out as similar ... .another uBPD relative.  No-one has ever been so similar.

So, it feels as if you are doing the Non thing of self-blame, caused by shame (ref. compassion focused therapy).

No disrespect, but this feels like a shame-based viewpoint. Whilst we Nons are not perfect, there are basic levels of acceptance in everyday society which I am sure others can relate to, regarding BPDs treating other people around them differently than themselves.

I believe it is more to do with the fact that they CAN do it with loved ones, because 'love' allows them access to something that can't be accessed in others (unless low functioning).

[Skip]

Everyone here is a "non".  Everyone here has lived it.  There is no reason to think anyone would want to shame anyone - we're all working together to get healthy. We're family.

I can't speak for the OP, but I think we all can agree that growing up a helpless child in a family with a mentally ill parent has got to be one of the most damaging situations - a child is defenseless.  There are many research papers on the subject.

Everyone knows the pain.

[LonelyChild]

Ok.

My life is working out. I earn some money. I study. I manage. I'm very likable. I'm trusted among my friends. We have very reciprocating r/ss.

Her life = No job, no income, no education (not even high school), no friends. Her apartment is filled with garbage.

Why the F should she be telling me how to live my life and not the other way around? Her life would be SO much better for HER if she'd listen to me.

So, should either of you be telling the other how to live?  I think that is an example of question being posed here.

Ok, let me answer that question (the way you are posing it implies extreme relativism which is quite silly tbh):

Some people need to be told what to do to move in the right direction. My uBPDxgf is one of them. She has substance addictions, gambling problems, no friends, no education, no driver's license, no job, no income. Barely her FOO can be around her now.

Consider if she weren't BPD, just a drug abuser. Should she be told how to live? Or should we all say "well, she chooses to not work and do drugs all day, that is her choice and we should accept that."

How about you consider that certain people do not understand the concept of long-term best interests, or planning ahead?

If you do not understand how hunger is managed, you will not eat until you get really hungry. At which point you're going to go "wow I'm STARVING, what's around me that I can eat?" and just start chewing things up. Then you're content. Then the hunger comes again, and you do the same thing again. "Is there a mcdonalds nearby? I need food NOW."

Is this a healthy way to manage hunger? No, it's not. Is it wrong for someone to tell you that you're not managing your hunger, and actually hurting yourself? If you don't understand, should you be left to your own fate? I'm not sure.

[jhkbuzz]

Some people need to be told what to do to move in the right direction. My uBPDxgf is one of them. She has substance addictions, gambling problems, no friends, no education, no driver's license, no job, no income. Barely her FOO can be around her now.

Consider if she weren't BPD, just a drug abuser. Should she be told how to live? Or should we all say "well, she chooses to not work and do drugs all day, that is her choice and we should accept that."

How about you consider that certain people do not understand the concept of long-term best interests, or planning ahead?

If you do not understand how hunger is managed, you will not eat until you get really hungry. At which point you're going to go "wow I'm STARVING, what's around me that I can eat?" and just start chewing things up. Then you're content. Then the hunger comes again, and you do the same thing again. "Is there a mcdonalds nearby? I need food NOW."

Is this a healthy way to manage hunger? No, it's not. Is it wrong for someone to tell you that you're not managing your hunger, and actually hurting yourself? If you don't understand, should you be left to your own fate? I'm not sure.

This is a really interesting conversation - I can see both sides of the discussion, both yours and Skip's.

I would naturally empathize with your side of the discussion - it's what I did in my own r/s. I saw the self defeating patterns and tried to "guide" - on my gentler days.  Persistently argued why I was "right" on my not-so-gentle days.

But here's the question I'm thinking about now: Where did I get the idea that it was my place to do so?  I wasn't her parent; she was an adult who needed to make her own decisions, good or bad - just like I do.  My real choice is to choose a partner who's on the same page (goals, values, etc.) - not to fix or change someone so that I can have a relationship that's to my liking.  

I'm not saying that you can NEVER guide, point out mistakes, etc. - but when someone is entrenched in a pattern of behavior as an adult, it's up to THEM to decide they want to change. The only thing that's up to YOU is whether or not you want to share your life with them. The truth is that no one can change anyone else anyway - if you think you can you're laboring under a delusion.

I know this first hand.

[Skip]

Where did I get the idea that it was my place to do so?  I wasn't her parent; she was an adult who needed to make her own decisions, good or bad - just like I do.  My real choice is to choose a partner who's on the same page (goals, values, etc.) - not to fix or change someone so that I can have a relationship that's to my liking.  

I think this is a point the OP was getting at exactly, JHK'.

And lonely', one thing at play here may be anosognosia (or its lessor forms), which is consistent with your statement of "extreme relativism".  This, in a sense, is what is happening in many cases.

Many people with a mental illness do not fully grasp that they are afflicted.  What is often viewed by family members to be immaturity, stubbornness,  or defensiveness, is really a much more complex problem - Minimisation, Abnegation and in some cases, Anosognosia.

"Anosognosia" is the clinical term for having a deficit of self-awareness, a condition in which a person who suffers a certain disability is unaware of its existence.  According to Edwin Fuller Torrey, M.D, Anosognosia is the single largest reason why individuals with schizophrenia and bipolar disorder, for example, do not take their medications.

"Abnegation" is a defense mechanism postulated by Sigmund Freud. When a person is faced with facts that are too uncomfortable to accept, they are rejected - despite what may be overwhelming evidence.

"Minimisation" exaggerated or irrational thought patterns that are believed to perpetuate the effects of psychopathological states, especially depression and anxiety.

We have a good video lecture here: https://bpdfamily.com/content/how-to-get-borderline-into-therapy

[Bennu]

Many people with a mental illness do not fully grasp that they are afflicted.  What is often viewed by family members to be immaturity, stubbornness,  or defensiveness, is really a much more complex problem - Minimisation, Abnegation and in some cases, Anosognosia.

"Anosognosia" is the clinical term for having a deficit of self-awareness, a condition in which a person who suffers a certain disability is unaware of its existence.  According to Edwin Fuller Torrey, M.D, Anosognosia is the single largest reason why individuals with schizophrenia and bipolar disorder, for example, do not take their medications.

"Abnegation" is a defense mechanism postulated by Sigmund Freud. When a person is faced with facts that are too uncomfortable to accept, they are rejected - despite what may be overwhelming evidence.

"Minimisation" exaggerated or irrational thought patterns that are believed to perpetuate the effects of psychopathological states, especially depression and anxiety.

We have a good video lecture here: https://bpdfamily.com/content/how-to-get-borderline-into-therapy

But surely, if someone has Anosognosia, we 'shouldn't' just accept it - if everyone always did that, then anosognosia would rule / always stay the same.

Also, with a family suffering from all these 3 conditions (of which I was previously aware), then an ex-partner, by just accepting and moving (which I am doing, btw), everything stays the same.  That's not how evolution, progression, development, improvement, etc, etc work.

We may be aliens from each other but they are trying to change us to fit themselves, we react by changing ourselves and attempting (unsuccessfully) to change them - invariably a Non will attempt to change to fit, but will always fail (which echoes your point).  

But the bit that is grating is that we SHOULD (bad word!) accept them just as they are, being different from us - they are, but relationships are about compromise: we do, they don't.

[jhkbuzz]

I think you're misunderstanding the point, which is that you (... .or I, or Skip, or ______ [fill in the blank]) don't have the power to change anyone. I can't cause someone else to "evolve, progress, develop or improve" - no matter how much I may know it's in their best interest to do so. I don't have that kind of power. That's their choice and their work to do. The best I can do is work on my own evolution, progress, development and improvement.

The more I think about this the more I can see that I made this very mistake in my own r/s. If I had accepted that ^ I would have not continued to date my ex - I would have recognized early on that she was not someone I would choose to be in a r/s with, based on her life choices and her circumstances at that point. But I thought I could "guide" her and help her improve her life - and she seemed to welcome my attempts to do so - so I dove right in. Over time she began to see me as controlling - and there was probably some truth to that.  I should have never put myself - or her - in that "one up one down" position.

(I should probably also mention that "guiding" her and helping her improve her life was quite a boost to my self esteem - and that should NEVER be the source of my positive feelings about myself.)

And I'm not sure that anyone is saying that we should just "accept them as they are."  I believe the OP referred to the healthier reaction to be "voting with our feet."  

[Skip]

And I'm not sure that anyone is saying that we should just "accept them as they are."  I believe the OP referred to the healthier reaction to be "voting with our feet."

Yes. She said she didn't start healing until she accepted reality - Faced the Facts.

I think Murray Bowen said it best "People select partners who have the same level of emotional maturity." Your examples demonstrate that.

And, healing starts when we see that we are doing some of the same things... .

If an ex contacts our new love interest we feel hugely violated.

When one us contact their new love interest, its payback, deserving.

If an ex tells their side of the relationship to friends its a smear campaign

When one of us tells our side of the relationship to friends its vindication.

If an ex seeks revenge, we consider her/him to be a sociopath.

When one of us seeks revenge, we feel that it is justice.

If an ex hacks our email, we consider them stalkers.

When one of us hack email, we consider it breaking no contact.

These are the blatantly obvious examples, there are hundred of more subtle ones.

A lot of us are deeper into the chaos than we know... .Think about it?  Our ex see the same thing - only in reverse.

The only reason to say this to anyone here is not for shame or to advocate for an ex who treated us badly - it is to care for each other and to help each other grow - it is so that we can start breaking through our own self-awareness ceiling and grow emotionally and go on to better relationship partners.

[myself]

It's one of those 'If the shoe fits... .' kind of things. Not everyone here was emotionally immature, or a rescuer-type, or trying to do anything but meet their supposed partner in the middle somewhere. Mostly being consistent. Are you having double standards with yourself then when this time you gave in but that time you stood your ground? How much does 'situational' play into this, especially when the other person is acting in disordered ways?

[Sunfl0wer]

This is an interesting thread.

I wonder also the other side of things, to be over tolerant of intolerable behavior.  Why is it that just because we understand that a person is lying because they are "disordered," that this somehow makes us accept lying from them vs from someone that we are unaware of the origin of the lying?

So because they have some internal struggle, and are suffering, and confused about feelings = reality, we accept lying in a r/s?  We have greater compassion for this = greater acceptance?

I'm not asking because I'm judging.  I'm asking because this is what I do!  All the time! Just because I feel I understand the source and psychological profile and pain of a person, and their underlying motives of a behavior, I am more apt to make it my duty to respond how that person "best needs me to."  I am drawn to my perception that this person "needs" me and this gives me purpose.  It is still self centered.  I can not throw stones calling them self centered for being more overt about their neediness.

I currently think that this is the reason I am attracted to persons that are disordered.

I think it is common for the non partner to pick partners that are disordered because they are more comfortable dealing with a person at a slightly lower level of functioning. So many of us can hang our hat on the idea that we are not as disordered. It feeds into the codependent desires of "helping" another.

I believe that we are attracted to persons of similar maturity.

I wish I could do an experiment and go back to how I get into this r/s:  Fix my ex up with three women who I know are far more emotionally mature and secure than I am.  I want to see how the first month of courtships goes.  I want to see their reactions, what attracts them, then what turns them off and how they analyze my ex and deal with things.  I would love to see how those beginning dates play out differently... .how far they go.  I want to see what I cannot see about myself.

[cosmonaut]

I do think that Lunira, Skip, fromheeltoheal, and others have a very good point that we sometimes have double standards.  I have noticed them in my own self.  Part of our healing does indeed involve needing to look at some hard truths about ourselves, even when it is uncomfortable to do that.  I do hear what some of the other posters are saying, however, in that they feel attacked by this, as if they are being made into the "bad guy".  I think the point is that there isn't a bad guy here.  Both ourselves and our partners have our virtues and our flaws.  Skip's point that bad behavior is bad behavior is right on.  And I think that's what we should focus on.

Perhaps one of the things to consider here is a distinction between our behavior in the relationship and out of the relationship.  I think what many of us are feeling is that we did the best that we could in a very difficult situation while we were in our relationships.  There were all sorts of things that we didn't understand and all of these swirling emotions.  We were involved in a relationship with a disordered person.  Now that we are out of the relationship, maybe we can take a step back and look at what we are doing with clearer eyes.  And I think that's the point to take away here.  Is what we are doing now consistent with our values?  Are we walking the walk?

[Yolo]

Hello all!

I am over two years out... .I'm at a very different point in my healing.  I rarely visit the boards anymore, but I do very occasionally because after a certain point its not about the healing... .its personal maintenance.   There is so much wisdom here, and best not get too lazy and think you are impervious to slipping into patterns of thought that are not value added. This particular thread caught my attention.

I had perhaps the "opportunity" to go through some of the stages of detachment during each of my recycles.  I found this site after our first breakup and like most of us, dug deeper in order to figure out WTH just happened . I had several recycles after that, and in the end... .it almost became a scientific experiment for me. I loved him, I did, I'd do anything for this man... .but reading on this site, and the cold hard truth about what was really happening, I stepped aside a bit to observe during the final round.  I had to prove (for myself in some way) that it doesn't matter what I do, the end is inevitable. And it was. 

The final blow with my ex, was very sad, humiliating, but I have to say, in all honesty, not really unexpected.

There is a very lovely feature about many of us in that we are actually narcissistic in a way.  Member 2010 explains it, and it is well documented about a Narcisstic Altruism.  I was and AM very  conscientious about doing the right thing.  I value integrity and I live by that.  I imagine most of us on the forum do as well.  It's shocking when someone we think we know and love does not live by the same moral code.  However, turn this back on ourselves, we EXPECT, everyone to live by this code of integrity. 

Then we judge them.  Who needs to get a grip on reality, ... .them or us?  NO ONE IS WRONG.  But as an individual it is our responsibility to ourselves to surround ourselves with people of the same values.  Katy Perry was spot on, we Forgot we have a choice.

It is not selfish to make it about us. Family, we only have a limited time on this earth.  Life is too short to spend scratching your head at what someone else is and isn't doing.  Because I'm not fresh out, I'm with the OP and healtoheel and others.  I see this when I visit.  There is  a double standard on this board.   

If we were involved with pwBPD traits we know what it feels like to LIVE with double standards, we all do.  But I agree with OP, I do after being 2 years on after 4 years of hell.  Study yourself and your emotions.  Our exe's deal with things differently, but they are human emotion on steroids.  They will shut you out or they will bombard you. 

It all comes back to YOU. What to you want. How do you see your future.  Do THEY fit into this vision of your future for YOUSELF.  That is all that matters.

[once removed]

the foundation of my relationship was double standards. i recognized it at the time so for me denying it subsequently would be impossible. some questions that led to healing:

"what was my role in that?"

more specifically,

"i had always considered myself to be highly opposed to double standards in a relationship. so why did i a: allow someone to apply them to me b: allow myself to apply them to them c: engage in a relationship where both parties applied them d: engage in them at all?"

"i say i recognized it at the time. did i recognize that it was the "foundation of my relationship"? no."

it wasnt easy to see this, but doing so depersonalized her actions against me, it allowed me to see what role i played in it, and it gave me the freedom to change and better my behavior, and start being true to my values.

[Gonzalo]

Are we living a double standard? No, and trying to say that the victim of abuse is equally to blame because they couldn't respond to abuse like a saint is the kind of victim blaming nonsense my ex- used to do. She would shout at me for an hour over some inconsequential thing, then if I eventually raised my voice in response that meant we were equally bad. She would deliberately hit on emotional hot buttons for me (like medical issues), then act like that was equivalent to her flying off the handle because I turned off some speakers that weren't being used.

There is a real difference between invalidating a feeling like "I am angry at you because you didn't come home from working a 10-hour day in the heat and immediately clean the kitchen in preparation for my friend coming over, even though I was home all day watching netflix and could have done it" and invalidating a feeling like "I feel like you don't care about me because when we were going to have sex, you got on the phone and wouldn't stop texting other people for 15 minutes." Pretending that all feelings are equally valid just plays right into the abusive games.

[ReclaimingMyLife]

I think both are true.  What Lunira said AND what LonelyChild said.  Seems like only one should be right but that isn't my experience.  Both being true is likely what makes this r/s so darn confusing.  

I respect and agree with much of what Lunira said.  I tend to naturally think that way.  Question myself, my motives, my assumptions, wanting to give others the benefit of the doubt, see it from their perspective, assume positive intent, etc.   As a result of this, I stayed in the r/s (a lot) longer than I should have.  

Had I been willing to really examine the evidence, facts and behavior right in front of me as LonelyChild articulated (I had $400 cash in my car two minutes ago and now it is gone and I am with my UxBPDbf; he handed me the stack of checks so why did the $300 check disappear even though the $15 checks are here, ETC., the list goes on), then I would have left sooner.  

Had I been wise to the REALITY of what was right in front of me, as LonelyChild shared, then I would have doubted myself less and then been able to do exactly what Lunira suggests:  VOTE WITH MY FEET.  I wish I had voted a whole lot sooner.  

As such, I think both Lunira and LonelyChild nailed it.  The trick, for me, is to employ both of these thought systems to observe, analyze and make better decisions in the future.  In the r/s I think I went back and forth btwn these two lines of thought.  Which inevitably made me feel crazy and contributed to me staying in the r/s longer than I should have.  

This is equally true post-b/u.  I am trying to make sense of this r/s debacle by still going back and forth btwn these two lines of thought.  So, I am using the same, flawed either/or thinking in the present that didn't work for me in the past.  I am getting equally poor results.  I am better served by remembering both are true.  Then and now. 

[Blimblam]

It's real simple hurt people hide from their pain by splitting.  By transferring the pain and shame into the image of a bad or inferior other. They then build a positive self image in contrast to this inferior other that needs to be controlled or live up to a set of siciol norms dictated by the subject if the inferior other image lives up to their standards it fits the "golden child," role vs the black sheep both being aspects of the inferior other.  Anyone doing this is hiding from themself and their reality is valid but is based in illusion it is very real to them though.