can public school kick a kid out due to an annoying dad?

[momtara]

My exH has sent my son's teacher a few angry emails because she shared info with me at dropoff, and not with him. We talked with our parent coordinator and she suggested that I tell him anything important within 24 hours. I shared this with the teacher. She told me something on Friday so I told him about it. He got mad that she didn't email him about it and he emailed all her superiors. So one of them promised to email him if there are issues and concerns. Agh, at least now the teacher doesn't have to engage with him. It's too bad, though, that he bullies people into having to respond. I don't want it to have a chilling affect on people communicating things to me. Anyway, I assume since this is our town's public school district, they wouldn't kick him out just because of his dad's inappropriate emails. He doesn't show up at school or anything. A public school (this is in the US) couldn't kick our son out because of this, could they? We're not a rich district so I imagine he's not the only problem parent.

[GaGrl]

If it's a public school, then no... .they can't dismiss children from the school due to a parent's bad behaviors.  If so, then the public schools would be much less crowded than they are.

If you haven't already done so, make sure the teacher and the administrators know that you have custody and decision-making status.  It may get to point that communications with your Ex are a courtesy only, should they come to understand that Ex can't actually do anything legally.

[scraps66]

No, they can't, but they can become less inclined to deal with the family in general consequently.  I am dealing with this now, school wants to move our S10 to a different school with better support, and ex is fighting.  His behavior is bad and exuNPD/BPD finds fault with school, a lot, despite S10's fundamentally disturbing behavior.

You can do well playing the mediator as school will much rather deal with you as opposed to angry dad. 

[momtara]

Good advice. I did think I read a story here a while ago about a kid being kicked out of preK, but maybe that was a private school. I think so far things are ok, but just want to have an idea when I should step in legally. For now I'll wait.

[momtara]

Now exH has sent the teacher and all of her superiors an email saying that after a conversation he had with the superiors this afternoon, he has spoken with his lawyer and they have no right to restrict his access to the teacher.

Uh oh, wonder what that convo was about.

I am torn between calling them to tell them I doubt he spoke with his lawyer and we have a PC to help us, or forwarding the email to our PC, or not doing anything and letting it play out.

If ex is not blaming me for this, and is engaging with the school, maybe I don't put myself back in the line of fire. Or... .?

I think what I will do is tell them we have a parent coordinator to help us deal with this, but I don't know what else.

Well, I have dealt with much worse things than this. At least this isn't a private provider.

[livednlearned]

You are outside this spat loop and don't need to mediate or facilitate or explain or apologize. He's his own big adult self acting like this -- it's no reflection on you.

My ex threatened every professional he came into contact with. At first, he would do anything and everything he could to charm them. Eventually, he split them black and made threats.

Let the principal handle this -- that's why they're paid the big(ger) bucks, to deal with problem parents and HR headaches. Take a big deep breath and try not to fix this or get involved. Divorced spouses don't typically stay involved and the school will be familiar with this behavior. Twice I had to take in custody orders to my son's school when the order was modified. The principal told me he doesn't think things are bad until the sheriff shows up to deliver the protective order. Public schools deal with far worse than a bunch of angry emails, sadly.

Also, if you're going for full legal custody, this is the kind of behavior that will make your case so much easier to make.

[momtara]

Thanks, LandL.

SO he followed up emailing them and claiming his lawyers said the teacher has to respond to all his questions.

They responded and said, certainly, the teacher will talk to you, and they apologize for the "misunderstanding" last week. Ugh. There was no misunderstanding.

I guess he sort of threatening them into backing down, but not a big deal. What is a big deal is that the teacher will now be afraid to say anything to me in the morning when I drop my son off. That sucks. But I guess I will stay out of it for now. Ex emailed the PC and claimed I didn't tell him about the conversation. I emailed her what he sent to the supervisors. Don't know if she'll step in or let it lie, but at least she knows.

I sort of want to tell them that he lies about his lawyer and they don't have to listen when he makes threats.

And yes, LandL, I know this will be a help if I ask for sole decisionmaking. I sort of hope it doesn't come to that, but in some ways, maybe ex wants it to come to that.

[Rubies]

Remember to ask for all documentation from the school on what has transpired ASAP.  The school will be looking out for their own best interest and that of all students.  They will play nice with everyone until they slap a restraining order on an unruly parent.

You don't need to get involved, and you don't need to tell x anything now.  Let the school tell him.

[livednlearned]

One thing my ex did was to get me on the defensive and feel like there was a real issue -- he rattled all the cages and rang all the bells.

Often, though, there was no issue except ex's issues. If you're accustomed to being bullied, try to look at the issue and ask if a reasonable person would agree there is a problem. Was the information urgent? Did your ex need it right away? If he does not know what is happening, is there a detrimental impact on your child?

Another way to look at this is if the tables were turned. Would you be angry if the schools told your ex this information, and not you directly?

[bravhart1]

I wouldn't worry too much about being kicked out of the school. What I would worry about is the teachers not reaching out to you because they are afraid they open a can of worms and have to deal with crazy dad.

We deal with this every week, here's how it has been ironed out:

We have made it clear to teachers and staff ( through documentation like court order) and verbally that they are in no way obligated to contact BPDm unless they want to. If there is anything she needs to know we will send word to her attorney. If BPDm asks for information she is to be told "everything's fine". Anything else just triggers her to try to blame things on us or the school and no one wants to deal with it.

They make it clear to us she seems unstable and hostile and we can't disagree, but we do give teacher ideas about how to handle mom, like don't meet with her alone etc., don't put things in writing, as well as contacting the child therapist for SD6 issues or BPDm issues.

The teacher has confided that she is very much looking forward to this year being over so she can be done with BPDm. She has no idea no we envy her!

[momtara]

That is my concern; I think now my son's teacher will be afraid to talk to me in the morning. However, I am afraid of saying anything against him, as it might look like alienation in a court battle. I guess it all depends. I could deal with it in legalese.

[bravhart1]

Do you have sole legal custody?

[momtara]

nope, shared so far. at this point i could probably move to get decisionmaking for school or medical or what have you. however, he always gets back at me for stuff, and i feel like if i further take away his control or power, he is still taking the kids unsupervised every other weekend and now he has more reason to do something harmful. yes, i am afraid of him. that said, if he did something that pushed me into court, like if a provider quit on us or something, i would immediately want sole legal and i did warn him of that. i just want to wait until he pushes me a little further. we do have a pc and i have to see how far this goes. she doesn't go out of her way to make recommendations so i have to push her, and maybe at this point she needs to step in. i'm not sure.

when our pc was able to talk to his doctors, she could usually inform them what was going on and it helped. i stupidly signed something with him saying our next pc couldn't contact his doctors. this was my mistake and at this point i am trying to figure out how to correct that. he is clearly more agitated than he has been before, and it is getting worse.

i know i say this all the time, but i don't want to make any overt court moves while he is still caring for them - he crashed his car last year five miles from our pc's office because going to her appointment made him stressed. if i am to change anything about our order or do something in court, i'd want him on supervised visitation for a time, but not sure i have enough to get that for that period.

[enlighten me]

I personally would ask to speak to the head and explain the situation. I would say my ex has some issues and that you understand how difficult he can be but worry that his recent behaviour will affect how you and your sons teacher can communicate.

You dont want to put the teacher in an awkward place but you also dont want little things to be missed that could affect your sons education.

[david]

I had a lot of problems with ex and the boys school years ago. I talked to the teacher, the guidance counselor, and the principal about ex and the issues.

The teacher simply listened and said little. I made sure that all communication needs to be shared with both parents through email. If I get an email from the teacher I reply to the email if it needs a reply and I do not send it to ex. If I do that it becomes a big mess. If ex sends an email that is her choice as a parent.

The counselor listened and said she would look in on son. She got back to me several times through email and phone calls. She also talked to ex since she was S9's homeroom mother. She volunteered, which is her choice, even though she was never involved in the boys schooling before. The counselor eventually figured ex out and contacted me first before talking to ex. We came to a decision and then I let counselor call ex and talk to her about it as if she never talked to me. This eliminated conflict with ex and school.

The principal was as pc as possible at the meeting but eventually figured ex out after dealing with her several times. I believe the counselor also talked to the principal.

That all happened several years ago. When our oldest went to middle school I had to do it all over again. It was much easier the second time because I asked them to talk to the principal from elementary school. I am sure they did because they called me and the conversation pretty much told me they were on board.

[livednlearned]

I did the same thing as david.

I started with the family specialist -- not sure if all public schools have them, but this person is often a social worker, and his or her role is to facilitate between families and the school. After her, I spoke to the guidance counselor, and then the principal. I let them know what the legal status was, and my concerns.

The schools live in a highly litigated environment, so anything you write by email, and any meeting you have will be documented. Since your ex has said he is going to contact his lawyer, they have likely consulted with their own legal counsel and are following a prescribed script about how they will handle him going forward. They know better than him that what he is threatening is a bunch of bunk. No one at the school did anything out of the ordinary. They are simply responding to your ex in order to minimize conflict.

I guarantee you that his tactics are entirely about bullying you and the school. What you did is so innocent -- you shared the information with him in a timely fashion. Not to mention he needs to figure out his own relationship with the school. No court is going to admonish you -- the divorced spouse -- for what you did or did not do.

You can gather from stories here that courts do not act unless there is a preponderance of evidence and a history of obstruction. The same bias that is afforded toward BPD mothers here is afforded to you.

You feel bullied by him, and you are afraid of court. So actions he takes that trips those triggers will make you feel bullied and scared even more. That does not mean that courts see the situation the same way. Judges look at these situations through the lens of what is reasonable within the law. He is acting unreasonably. That's why this behavior works in your favor. His behavior is now registering with other parties. Once my ex started to target school and professionals, things got much easier. And then he targeted his lawyer, and then the judge.

If you keep your head down and let this play out, he will make things worse for himself all on his own.

[momtara]

Livedandlearned and David, THANK YOU. Your insight is so invaluable. Who else goes through this kind of nonsense? Few peope understand. Friends can only say "Can your lawyer do something?" It is a relief to know how you handled it with school administrators. I do live in a city with enough disadvantaged kids that there are social workers and advocates involved in each case, so I imagine this is not the first time they've dealt with this. I appreciate that advice.

I may put this in a different thread, but I just found out that ex called our dentist to change the appointment the kids have been waiting for for six months. This was after a discussion with our PC last week about following procedure for making appointments etc. He is really reacting to the boundaries I set in the session and now I'm getting scared because he is taking the kids this weekend. He was nice enough to them on the phone last night but apparently he is angry and maybe needs to exert control. One unique thing about my situation is he still wants to be with me. He still has his car registered at our apt. even though he lives w/his parents in a different state. Some of our boundaries we set up were about not bothering each other during work, etc. Less contact with me means he tries to get back at me or get my attention some other way. So he is probably reacting and sees me slipping away and he is furious.

Our last pc did tell me he was bipolar and that if he goes off his medicine i should deal with it in court. I have no proof of this but I think he is getting worse and is off his meds.

Part of me at least wants to go on an emergency basis and have a PC appointed who can talk to his therapists immediately. I can also stick with the same PC but she seems not as insightful. It would certainly make more sense to deal with someone we've been dealing with, though. So I'm dealing with a  bunch of choices as usual. This one was better in our recent second session but hasn't offered any advice about his mental health issues. I have hesitated even to sign her contract, which is bothering her. I have to get back to her on it this weekend. I just feel like if I have to go to court I may want a new pc.

My T agrees that he is just trying to scare me and that this doesn't necessarily mean he'd hurt the children. But I do wonder that if he thought he had nothing to live for, he'd hurt them or hurt himself or them. And he does seem to like to exert control or power over me when he feels he is losing power.

Stupidly I responded to his latest email early this morning and said he should not mention lawyers in dealing with our providers. Maybe he will see that as closing off one of the few things he does to gain power. Eek. He is taking the kids Saturday. I have to consider the long and short term implications of any move i make.

[david]

Lnl experience mirrors mine. I detached and stopped reacting to ex. She went elsewhere for what she "needed". With my talking to the school and, by the way I spoke to them, they got I was on our boys side. I tried to find solutions for the boys and then addressed how to deal with ex.

The first few times I contacted ex and that backfired. I then decided to talk to the school and let them contact ex. The school recommended, suggested, etc a course of action and ex agreed since I was not involved (in her mind). I believe it made ex feel like she was the parent in charge. It was similar to when we were married and ss's (her kids from first marriage) had an issue. Ex took complete control and never talked to me about it until it was all over. I rarely intervened but on occasion did. When I did she would verbally attack me. A few days later she was calmed down and it became her idea.

Learning what ex reacted to helped me do an end around without her

knowledge. I made the school know it was very important that I was not included in any discussion with ex. The counselor was a very good advocate for

me in that area because she had ex figured out to some degree.

You mention your fears of him doing something to the kids. I have never seen a post in which he actually did do something. It might be something for you to work on. The fear seems to through you off your center. That is all part of detaching.

I used to talk to our boys about what they should do in an emergency. Get away from the danger asap and try to get your brother with you. Memorize my phone number and remember 911. I never gave them specific things and kept it general. I figured it applied to them anywhere so I was just reinforcing skills they needed to learn. As they got older I became less concerned for their immediate safety and well being when with their mom.

[momtara]

So anyway, after he intimidated them with the lawyer threat, they invited him to volunteer in the classroom. So he sent them an email saying he wants to read to the class. Eh, whatever. Good. If he tries to take our son out of school, that's another story.

[livednlearned]

That tells you that they understand the psychology of a parent who feels alienated (whether it's of his own doing or not). They basically validated his feelings and did a ninja move to make him feel more included, thereby reducing conflict.

I'd guess he isn't the first parent they've tamed this way 

[momtara]

Very insightful, Lived and Learned! There are now SEVEN people on the email list responding every time he emails them. Our tax dollars at work.  I guess some have a mental health background (school psychologist etc.) and they did just what you said.

He emailed them back that he would like to come read to the children. But if they say it has to be at a time and date that doesn't suit him, he likely won't do it. He will do it if it's in the morning so he can walk with me to school and thus engage with me. We shall see. As LandL has suggested, I'm staying out of it. If he does volunteer, great!

He has now tried to postpone a dentist appointment for the kids without asking me. The dental office called to let me know, and to say I need a lawyer letter if he does it again. I emailed our PC and said he's reacting out of anger. I asked what I should do if he shows up for visitation this weekend unruly. She had a few ideas, but also wrote: "Although I understand that you can't often prevent such outbursts, it would be helpful for you to understand what would trigger them and try to avoid those situations. I certainly feel that emails should be brief, concise and right to the point."

All I do is spend time trying to figure out how not to trigger him!

I probably have to start a new thread because things are getting out of hand and I have to figure out whether to go to court or not, how, and for what. I'm not sure if I should make some small court motions to address these issues. He needs to pay some of the PC, and I want to make sure he stays in counseling. I also really want a pc who is a forensic psychologist but they are more expensive. So over this weekend I really have to figure out which tack to take: Stick with this PC, dump her, go to court, try to handle it all out of court. I will ask for a few things, like the ability to make appointments and not have them changed.

The PC did suggest that if he never handed in annual letters saying he's in treatment with his psychologist and psychiatrist, we can demand them. But if I go down that road, I have to be prepared for what i do next - emergency motion or something else. And that's going to take some thought. I can't afford another retainer of several thousand for an emergency motion so I'd have to do it myself. I don't want to necessarily make a regular motion if it's going to take weeks and rachet things up.

I guess I need to list what i want and how court can help (or a lawyer letter, which means more money... .)