What does normal look like?

[mssalty]

In a normal relationship do people push each other's buttons and react to it?   

For the entire length of my current relationship, it seems as though the arguments escalate, and I say something I'm not supposed to, and then I'm painted black.   I'm told that what I say is unacceptable, can't be tolerated, etc.   

I seem to remember my parents getting in arguments and saying things that were immature, getting loud, yelling, etc., but what I don't remember was them always feeling one sided, where one person was left apologizing.   

Several days ago my SO said something snotty to me about something that I had done that was unintentional.  I got upset, and they blew their stack for my reaction (a reaction I haven't had in awhile).   Note, I got loud, but didn't use profanity, call my SO names, but did get snippy in my response.   I own that.   

But what frustrates me so much is that I feel like I don't know what is the right reaction anymore, and when I can feel comfortable saying that it wasn't my fault.  Living with an SO incapable of saying "sorry" or admitting any part in an argument means you lose all sense of right and wrong in how you handle things.    You can't gauge your offense when it feels that everything is a major offense.

I've been trying so hard, but it amazes me how every single episode like what happened puts me back in the same place, feeling confused, angry, sad, and unloved.    There is no safety net, no sense that you can both come together and say you're sorry, or that your SO will realize their role.  Without those cues I feel adrift emotionally, and I feel afraid that there's always something that's going to push it over the edge again.   

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[OffRoad]

Hi Mssalty,

In normal relationships, this happens sometimes, but the reactions are not as severe, and most of the time normal people just kind of roll along without things getting out of control. In a normal relationship, you could say "Oh, man, the sink is full." just acknowledging that dishes need to be done, and the other person might say "Yeah." or offer to help do dishes or even do the dishes themselves. In a pwBPD relationship, that observation translates to "You haven't done the dishes." or "You always leave a mess in the sink." or any variation of some kind of blame, when it was simply an observation or verbal reminder to yourself to do the dishes.

In a BPD relationship it often feels like no matter what you do, it's wrong, right? The things I have figured out are as follows. Your mileage may vary.

I'm allowed to have an opinion that is different from my H. He forgets that and I have to calmly remind him. "I get to have my own opinion."

Any derogatory remark that is unfounded or cruel is met with "That was rude. I have no desire to talk to you when you are rude. If you'd like to talk to me in a non-rude manner, I will be happy to converse with you. Otherwise, I am going *wherever*".

If my H comes up with some weird thing out of left field, it's "Where did that thought come from?"

If I can understand what is really bothering him, I'll validate his feelings.

My best defense seems to be addressing the issue head on, but in a detached way, as if what he is saying is in regards to someone else. If I don't take it personally, I don't get angry. It doesn't always work, because face it, there is only so much one person can take. But when you recognize that sometimes your SO is picking a fight because they feel bad about themselves, it gets easier.

And a simple " I don't deserve to be spoken to in that way." and leave the vicinity until the episode blows over works miracles for me, but it depends on the pwBPD.

[vortex of confusion]

I am very interested in following this thread as I have had a difficult time figuring out what normal should look like too.

My thoughts are that both of us should be able to experience a full range of emotions without either of us coming unglued. If I am having a bad day, he shouldn't take it personally.

Like OffRoad said, it is okay to say something about derogatory remarks. One of the things that I have recently done is put a stop to some of his passive aggressiveness. He has this habit of saying, "I am going to go outside." The problem is that he will expect me to follow. If I don't follow, he will get upset. Last night, he said, "I am going to go outside. You can join me or not." I told him, "If you want me to come outside with you, then ask me directly. Tell me, "Hey, I am going outside and would like your company."" Tonight, when he went outside he said, "I am getting ready to go outside. Will you please join me?" And then he said, "Is that a better way to ask?" I said, "Absolutely. I will be right there as soon as I finish up what I am doing." It was soo nice for him to ask me directly without all of the BS of him expecting me to know that he really did want me to join him.

[confusedwoman]

This is something that I've been wondering for a long time as well... .what is normal?

I'm about a month out from my breakup with my exBPD boyfriend who I dated for about four years. That's a long time to have someone messing with your head, and although I know he is disordered, I still can't make sense of a lot of what happened between us, and that's because of his projection and manipulation and gaslighting.

At this point, now that we're broken up, I'd really like to make some progress with myself and part of that is taking a good look at what my own flaws are. I'm actually having a really hard time identifying what I truly did that was wrong versus the things he led me to believe were wrong. I can't figure out for sure what my faults and contributions were, I find myself second guessing because his repeated words are sort of engrained into my brain. He told me that I was controlling, constantly critical of him, tried to monopolize his time, and that I was jealous of the time he spent with other people, just as a few examples. There could be small kernels of truth in some of these accusations, but I think he blew them out of proportion. In other instances, I believe my ex accused me of the exact way that HE was in fact behaving. Still other times, I think he tried to make me feel guilty for trying to bring up anything that might make light of the fact that he wasn't perfect.

Does any of this ring a bell with you? If so, we can definitely discuss it further. It's very, very confusing. Probably one of the hardest parts of the whole thing for me, because our sense of right and wrong has been tampered with.

Like you, I also identified some things that could potentially be part of the dynamic in a healthy relationship, but I wondered to what degree they might occur, or maybe how frequently. This made it difficult to know how much to forgive, how much to accept, and probably caused me to stick around way longer than I should have.

Trying to think of other nuances that could fall under this umbrella. Let me know what else you think of and we can expand on this. I will think of more as well.

And for what it's worth, I think it says a lot about this type of BPD relationship dynamic that you can own up to something as human and forgivable as getting short with someone during an argument, while your pwBPD likely reacted in a far more damaging way without any acknowledgment or apology. The manipulation is all around.

[MercuryHat]

I'm the first to admit I am not a good candidate for defining normal.

However, it seems to me that in a healthy relationship the two individuals can disagree without becoming polarized. If I have a different opinion than my s/o things immediately go into a state of animosity. I will point it out early on (and our mc has done so, as well) by asking "why is this getting so polarized. we can disagree without being enemies" But the defensiveness is astounding. I don't think he can disagree without becoming enemies.

When I have a different opinion I am accused of "being on my high horse", "disrespecting" him, acting like an authority figure, telling him he's a piece of sh!t.

I have tried to modify the way/tone/words/time/manner in which I express my own opinions, to no avail.

My good friends are all people that I have upfront and wonderfully intimate and real conversations with. We don't always agree. When we disagree we learn from each other. It is a beautiful thing.

I wish I had that with my partner. I think to have such a thing is healthy.

I see friends with their partners. I see one turn to the other and say "you're so full of sh!t" in a teasing way. They both laugh. I cringe waiting for the blow up. I have felt tears in my eyes with that particular couple on more than one occasion. He says things to her like "well that's your opinion, but in this case it really is my decision so I'll file your opinion away where it belongs and make my own call." She says things like "I would prefer if you could clean up after yourself" (he's not as tidy as her). It's a beautiful thing for me to observe. I wish I had that at home.

I think healthy couples laugh at themselves and each other sometimes. I think a little bit of teasing can be a fun way to let off steam and shine the flashlight on the annoying aspects of our partner, that we live with and love anyways. I'm not talking passive agressive mean hurtful things, I mean a joke directed at that stupid inconsequential fights we repeat.

In our house we are not supposed to mention those stupid fights. They are too "devastating" to bring up again (unless we're in the fight and then it is great ammunition in the war). To mention that we have unresolved stuff is literally fighting words.

I think healthy couples can say "I'm having a bad day" or "I'm grumpy today" and the other person cuts them some slack. Gives them some love - from a safe and respectful distance.

In our house being grumpy is not permissible. To be grumpy or have a bad day means you are not perfect and we must never allow ourselves to appear imperfect.

I suck at playing by those crazy making rules of our house. I call them what I see them - crazy making. However, that just leads to more arguments (with the accompanying polarization) and more crazy.

The past 5 months or so I have just been keeping my mouth shut as much as possible. I've been choosing my battles, and choosing to shut down.

I don't think that is healthy. But, nor is constant fighting about stupid stuff.

I feel such relief to find the reason for all the crazy. I feel so happy that I am not alone in dealing with the crazy anymore. Y'all know what I'm talking about, and I get what you're talking about. We're all reflections of our BPD "normal".

[babyducks]

What I have come to learn about myself is that while my partner has difficulty in self soothing I have difficulty in self validating. (learned that here, thank you bpdfamily)

What is true for me is; if our argument lands on a topic where I already have a suppressed issue, because lets face it, if I had self esteem I wouldn't be in a relationship with someone with BPD,   my button is already half pushed. 

In a normal relationship do people push each other's buttons and react to it?   

I think in a 'normal' relationship people push each other's buttons, react to it, acknowledge it and move on all in a fairly short amount of time. 

I think it's harder for us because we have the intense emotions of the BPD on one hand, and our ingrained habits on the other.

This is a great thread.   I'm going to have think more about this and return.

'ducks

[Thread]

Off-road,

You just spoke to my soul! My H BPD is exactly as you described. I feel so belittled and attacked for my observations or saying anything different then what he has made his mind up about! Oh goodness! And the insecurities... .The trigger for almost all dysregulation!

Does that work though? You're responses?

I know I need to put my foot down with the cynicism and side jabs. If you could give me more advice on this I would love to hear some success stories, or anything. the rude comments or me never being right about anything is just so tiring!

[Hmcbart]

I have been living this life fur almost 20 years. To say I'm a slow learner is an understatement. Now that the veil has been lifted and I can see the truth of things, I have started to become resentful of the lack of "normal" stuff.

While reading the posts on this thread I can see how this affects more than myself. I see it in my two boys (8 & 12). The things they will say or do are looked upon as horrible offenses. My udBPDw has gone overboard in her punishment of some of these actual normal behaviors.

I have done them a disservice by not understanding what "normal" actually looks like. It's not the things that happen in our house. I watch them at dinner and they will say the craziest things. I laugh and play along with them but then remind them they cannot say these things around momma.

It's really kind of sad that it has to be this way. They will be acting like normal young boys until she comes down stairs and then they litterally look over their shoulders after they say something. They are check to see if she heard them and waiting for a reaction. A reaction to "normal".

I have started buffering a lot of what happens in the house now. If she overreacts to something they say or do, I will come in and overrule her authority. It doesn't make for good co-parenting but I am hopeful I can reverse and long term damage. I want them to learn that what we have at home currently is not "normal". I want them to learn that real "normal" is ok.

[OffRoad]

In our house being grumpy is not permissible. To be grumpy or have a bad day means you are not perfect and we must never allow ourselves to appear imperfect.

^^This is what drives me insane. We were given a vast assortment of emotions for a reason, not just fake "happy". I LIKE to feel my emotions.  If I see someone doing something harmful to another person, I LIKE to get totally PO'd and to let them know, in no uncertain terms, that what they did was unacceptable. I LIKE to be able to cry when I feel sad so I can let the sadness go. I LIKE to feel excited to go some place new. I don't like feeling afraid, but that fear is there for a reason, so it has it's advantages, too.

What is the thrill of being "happy" and one dimensional all the time? Better to pretend you aren't mad and let people walk all over you? Not do anything that you might be afraid of or will challenge you? How boring is that?

[OffRoad]

Off-road,

You just spoke to my soul! My H BPD is exactly as you described. I feel so belittled and attacked for my observations or saying anything different then what he has made his mind up about! Oh goodness! And the insecurities... .The trigger for almost all dysregulation!

Does that work though? You're responses?

I know I need to put my foot down with the cynicism and side jabs. If you could give me more advice on this I would love to hear some success stories, or anything. the rude comments or me never being right about anything is just so tiring!

My responses work if I have the balance to respect my own boundaries (leave the vicinity if he won't calm down or I feel disrespected) and the presence of mind to stay calm when I say what I need to say. Saying the exact same words in a sarcastic, condescending, or angry manner never works. And I do have to be mindful of what I say, like in the case of the dishes needing to be done. I'm a person who speaks out loud to log in the reminder to my memory. Most times, I'm not even addressing the person I am with. My kids gets that. My H doesn't.

I also have to use a LOT more words than I would with a non. I can't say "Would you pick up your socks?" That results in accusations against everyone else who has not picked up something, ever in his lifetime. I have to say "I'm doing a load of whites tomorrow, would you please pick up your socks so I can so those, too?" or I have to include everyone as in "OK, five minute pickup. Everyone get your socks into the clothes hamper."

AND I have developed a thick skin. It's much easier now that I know it isn't me. I kept thinking I had done something to start the argument (and I did, but no non would have made it into an argument). Mindful communication, depersonalization, boundaries, and calm speaking are the mainstays of my toolbox.

[OffRoad]

I have started buffering a lot of what happens in the house now. If she overreacts to something they say or do, I will come in and overrule her authority. It doesn't make for good co-parenting but I am hopeful I can reverse and long term damage. I want them to learn that what we have at home currently is not "normal". I want them to learn that real "normal" is ok.

I agree, it's really hard for the kids. My S and I get a half hour of conversation time every school day on the way home from school. We play guess that song and artist, talk over the music, jump from topic to topic and have a darned good time. That is impossible with H in the car. He can't stand music, he can't have anything going on in the background and talk, he likes to "lecture" not have a conversation. The funny thing for me is that he was NOT this way when I met him. This whole persona emerged about five years into our marriage, when he started getting stressed. It was then a sometimes thing, and has became a way too often thing. (My H's BPD personality only comes out when he is stressed-I think it is the pressure of being "on" all day at work. He has nothing left for home)

But as to your overruling her authority, I hope you take her to a different room than the kids, and tell her what you are going to do, as opposed to overruling her in front of the kids. Sometimes, it is unavoidable (Like when my H was trying to force my S when he was 8 to walk out on a log over a gully and my S is deathly afraid of heights-dysregulate all you want H, I'm not backing down), but when it isn't, it's best for them not to see you overruling her. Make it look like you both talked it over and came to different conclusion and maybe you can actually do that. If she follows you out screaming, it's only on her as long as you don't scream back. The go-to line in our house is "Hey, I you to help me with something real quick."

BTW, Hmcbart, you sound pretty frustrated. I soo get that. Once I started to depersonalize what was going on, realized how the way I said what I said contributed to the BPD problems, and started dealing with things in a matter of fact way, it got easier for me. I hope you can fill your own toolbox with things that will make your life easier. I wish I'd found this place 20 years ago... .

[SunflowerFields]

In a normal relationship do people push each other's buttons and react to it?   

Hi mssalty,

I believe I can answer this. I am now in a healthy, happy marriage with a normal person, which came after my BPD r/s.

No - in a normal relationship people do not push each other's buttons. My husband and have a normal, happy, loving relationship. Why would we push each other's buttons? We love and care for each other deeply. Normal, healthy people don't push each other's buttons - they want to make each other happy.

I say something I'm not supposed to, and then I'm painted black.   I'm told that what I say is unacceptable, can't be tolerated, etc.   

This stems from this:

I seem to remember my parents getting in arguments and saying things that were immature, getting loud, yelling, etc.

You grew up in a dysfunctional family, where you never learned what is normal.

I feel like I don't know what is the right reaction anymore, and when I can feel comfortable saying that it wasn't my fault. 

Your feelings as a child were invalidated, so you never learn to trust them.

There is no safety net, no sense that you can both come together and say you're sorry, or that your SO will realize their role. 

If you think back of your childhood, I am pretty sure you will find out this was never the case back then either, because your parents were incapable of doing so. You are now recreating your childhood pattern with your partner, hoping to be able to finally resolve differences. The problem is, the person you are with is similar to your parents, and, just like your parents, he is incapable of doing so.

I feel afraid that there's always something that's going to push it over the edge again.   

Yes, there will be. Your partner is your partner; he is who he is, and he is not changing.

You, however, can change if you want to. You need to learn to trust yourself and your feelings. This can be fixed, and it is a process that will take therapy, practice, and time. 

[Loosestrife]

Normal or perhaps healthy is a better word -  is how we are with our closest friends, but with intimacy, cohabitation and a few blow ups that get resolved by working through things together. A relationship with a BPD will never be normal.

[Thread]

Off-road,

Thank you for the advice! I hope one day to reach that point! I just get so tired each time I get knocked down and like you said for things I'm not even being confrontational about - just speaking out loud usually making mental notes :/