BPD vs Sociopathy

[fromheeltoheal]

My parents loved me, although they didn't communicate it well, that British stiff upper lip thing, but they did, yet I still grew up wondering, which may have had more to do with my own sensitivity than what actually happened.  And like you, that situation predisposed me to look for relationships to get love instead of give it, which is the equivalent of painting a target on our back for the disordered among us to aim for. 

Hi Heel

As someone from the UK who had a similar upbringing, this is very interesting to me. Is this a theory you concocted - or was it arrived at via therapy?

Cheers

Fanny

Hey Fanny-

"Brits" is too broad really, historically the English have been seen as stoic and unemotional, while the Scots and the Irish are pretty wild, jeez the Romans built a wall to keep the 'barbarians' out after all, and the Irish have their own damn island, and then the Welsh were somewhere between.  The emotional display of the Queen, Charles and William are pretty representative of the English norm, although as I've gotten older it's become clear that it's more class than country; eastenders from London or Liverpudlians are pretty emotive, especially when they're kicking your ass.  My mother's from Glasgow, another ruff n tumble place, although she's very stoic, which is a trait of Scottish women a little.  Hell, generalizations have limitations, but what is for sure is neither my Scottish mother nor my English father communicated emotions for sht, neither one have even told me they love me, but I know they both do.  Californians handle this sht better, or maybe it's just overcompensation?

[Mike-X]

My parents loved me, although they didn't communicate it well, that British stiff upper lip thing, but they did, yet I still grew up wondering, which may have had more to do with my own sensitivity than what actually happened.  And like you, that situation predisposed me to look for relationships to get love instead of give it, which is the equivalent of painting a target on our back for the disordered among us to aim for. 

Hi Heel

As someone from the UK who had a similar upbringing, this is very interesting to me. Is this a theory you concocted - or was it arrived at via therapy?

Cheers

Fanny

You might want to look at the literature on attachment theory.

Adult attachment style and partner choice: Correlational and experimental findings. P.A. FRAZIER, A.L. BYER, A.R. FISCHER, D.M. WRIGHT, and K.A. DEBORD. Personal Relationships

Volume 3, Issue 2, pages 117–136, June 1996.

Abstract

Three studies were conducted to assess the role of attachment style in partner selection using both correlational and experimental methods. Study 1 (n = 83 couples) assessed correlations between partner ratings on attachment-style dimensions and the relations between own and partner attachment style and relationship satisfaction. In Study 2 (n = 226) and Study 3 (n = 146), participants who varied in terms of attachment style rated the desirability of potential partners who also differed in terms of attachment style. Results of all three studies generally suggested that individuals were most attracted to partners with similar attachment styles. For example, anxious individuals tended to be dating anxious partners in Study 1, and they preferred anxious partners over secure and avoidant partners in Studies 2 and 3 (combined data). Thus, not all individuals preferred secure partners. Second, unlike previous studies that looked primarily at partner correlations, there was no evidence of anxious/avoidant matching. In fact, anxious individuals seemed particularly averse to avoidant partners. Finally, ratings of parental caregiving styles (especially ratings of mothers) were associated with adult attachment dimensions and partner choices. For example, individuals who rated their mothers as more cold and ambivalent were less attracted to secure partners. Clinical and research implications are discussed.

[FannyB]

My parents were good people but not lovey dovey types. I can recall the family laughing at the sentimentality of the Waltons for example when I was a kid. I suppose it's a possibility that the intensity of the disordered connects to me on a level I hitherto lacked due to suppressed childhood deficiencies in terms of feeling loved?

Anyway, thanks for your insight. At least you've given me some food for thought.  


Fanny

[BorisAcusio]

Finally, ratings of parental caregiving styles (especially ratings of mothers) were associated with adult attachment dimensions and partner choices. For example, individuals who rated their mothers as more cold and ambivalent were less attracted to secure partners. Clinical and research implications are discussed.

That's interesting Mike. I'm not familiar with attachment theory, but having a caring mother and being attracted to insecure partners could indicate that genetic predisposition, or an overly nurturing environment could have the same effect a cold and ambivalent parenting style.

[NonBPDEx]

I'm sticking with BPD, and a very high functioning one at that.  My ex hurt me terribly by never being able to acknowledge that I was desperately trying to support her in every way imaginable. She did say hurtful things with the intent to hurt me similarly to how a child would when s/he is angry. 

My ex was like this also. I don't think she ever intentionally tried to hurt me. I think that perhaps she felt at times that I was hurting her (even though it was never my intent), and so she felt she needed to lash out. But then when she did, she would swing to feelings of agonizing shame.

[daz_bpd]

My first attempts to learn about my gf's behaviour lead me to Sam Vaknin's: malicious self-love, narcissism revisted. When he spoke about gaslighting or ambient abuse he was pretty much describing how my gf treated me, and how she behaved. Her excessive need for control, and ability to manipulate and the enjoyment she got by playing games with people, it seemed evil.

However, the relationship make up / break up cycle models on this site fit perfectly with how things have been with her for months and months, going on two years.

I feel like the border line traits mentioned in these articles don't fully encapsulate her behaviours. There are definite narcissistic trends. Her lack of empathy and destructive habits and decisions, where she does things while knowing it hurts others and hurts herself in the future.

[Tim300]

Given the wide spectrum of behaviours exhibited, anecdotally, by BPDexs as described on this very board, one has to conclude that BPD is a very wide spectrum indeed! An alternative take on things might be that in the worst case stories I've read on here, the ex in question might be more sociopathic than borderline. Both disorders do the 'idealize, devalue, discard' cycle - but the motivations are different. Whereas borderline behaviour is driven by reflexive defence mechanisms learnt in childhood, sociopaths actually take pleasure from their ex's pain and know what they were doing all along. In light of this, is anyone out there tempted to re-classify their 'borderline' ex? 

Good question.  Mine definitely had flashes of Antisocial Personality Disorder (ASPD) during painting black BPD phases.  She also displayed some tendencies for the other two Cluster B disorders (HPD and NPD).  Our marriage counselor told me that she thought I was being too dismissive of this being a case of ASPD and not just BPD.  Admitting to myself that my ex was a case of ASPD (in addition to BPD) was not easy, but the counselor is right, my ex suffers from ASPD at times.  With that being said, my ex's BPD traits strongly trumped her manifestations of the other 3 Cluster B disorders.  My ex was just textbook BPD right out of the DSM list, and the BPD symptoms were the most commonly occurring of her PD symptoms and overrode whatever ASPD agenda she might have had. 

[Circle]

I really can't decide if my ex is a BPD with a sociopath/NPD streak or the other way around. We only dated for 6 months, but there were a few events in her life during that time span that were just tough to comprehend. Like her absolutely bizarre falling out with her "best friend" to the point of her talking about needing a restraining order from her former friend. Or her telling me how she had to fire somebody she just hired because that person decided to do drugs in the restaurant's bathroom and she caught her new employee doing that. (who does that?) Or (this is already after I was gone) one of her former employees posting a blow out one star review of her restaurant on Yelp, telling to the whole world how he was setup to be fired (and that it has happened to others before) and that the manager of the place is "a complete b!tch" and he has no idea how she even had a job in the service industry. At the time, I just wrote all of this off as a restaurant business specific stuff that I just don't understand. A few months out, when I think about all that, I strongly suspect all those events were carefully set up by my tiny former cheerleader girlie for her amusement.

Interesting. Not to mention that many BPD's can't keep jobs, let alone a managerial position. Maybe it was sociopathy, or psychopathy, or anti-social, or whatever you want to call it?

[Beach_Babe]

It's not a BPD trait if they enjoy hurting you right?

[fromheeltoheal]

It's not a BPD trait if they enjoy hurting you right?

It depends on the motive.  Sociopaths can enjoy hurting other people, or at least lack remorse, where a borderline can enjoy someone else's pain because it makes them feel like they're not the only one in pain, like they're sharing it.

[ZeusRLX]

My last one was a sociopath. She knew what she was doing.

[Vatz]

My ex wasn't a sociopath. She had a drug problem, and I don't think it was to escape anything in particular. More that she was just prone to addictive behaviors and prescribed meds were her thing. People were her thing too, she liked the high of a new relationship, perhaps too much which is probably why she cheated as she did.

Sure, some of her behaviors were abusive, mean and seemed lacking in empathy-but it wasn't total lack of empathy that caused it. It was The High Vs. The Expectations Of Relationship. "The High" won, it was *ahem* higher on her priorities (see what I did there?)

Everyone does Cost/Benefit in their heads when making decisions, even when those decisions affect the ones you love. Maybe she loved me, but not more than her addictions, and the disorder added an extra cost when deciding to cheat. If she doesn't "do stuff" with the "friend" in her mind, she risks losing them-it's a real and heavy fear. Whereas losing me, well... .I did a good job of letting her know that she wouldn't. Did she know this consciously? I doubt it. It would surely be a surprise, but at this stage in the game it's all the same to me. Cost/Benefit... .that's life.

[letmeout]

My ex was a narcissistic sociopath borderline, and he hit them all heavily.