Practising Validation, more examples incl. Skype conversation

[Depression = 72% of members]

She is asking for money during her intense emotional spikes. She is threatening another break up and doesn't want me. I am not giving in to her demands, the conversation as follows:

Her: You spent 2 hours of stressing me out instead of giving me what i asked

Me: Giving you what you demand during intense emotional outbursts doesn't make things better for us

Her: I am leaving and you can forget about me. IF YOU EVER COME BACK HERE I WILL NEVER MEET UP WITH YOU

Her: I DONT CARE WHAT YOU SAY

Me: Its important I stand my ground during these times. Once you calm down we can talk about things, in a calm, neutral and loving space

Her: NO

Her: YOU WILL NEVER SEE ME AGAIN. WHEN YOU COME HERE AND CANT REACH ME, DONT TELL ME I DIDNT WARN YOU

Her: I WILL REVERT TO YOU ALL THE STRESS AND PAIN YOU CAUSED ME ALL THESE YEARS

Me: Baby, i care for you and love you very much. I am doing this to portect you from yourself

Her: [Name of her ex] WOULD NEVER HAVE PUT ME IN THIS HELL!AND I LOST HIM COZ OF YOU!

Her: YOU DONT EVEN KNOW HOW TO HANDLE ME! I HATE YOU SO MUCH! I WISH I NEVER MET YOU!

Her: WHAT THHE ___ YOU ___ingING PSYCHO FREAK

Her: ILL SHOW YOU PSYCHO IF YOU EVER COME BACK HERE, YOU'LL SEE!

Her: You are loved and care for.

Me: I am here for you once you have calmed down

Her: Not by you.

Her: I dont want your kind if love and care. I hate it and i hate YOU

Her: YOU SUCK. YOU ARE THE WORSE PERSON IVE EVER KNOWN.

Her: YOURE NOT WORTH LOSING [her ex] OVER. THIS IS SUCH HELL AND YOU ARE SATAN!

At this point she threatens to go to a local casino and borrow from a loan shark - she did this before and it almost cost her, her job and reputation.

Her:The cab smells like gasoline. ill die of intoxication before lung cancer

Her:Just to make you realize im honest of how i feel, I will never be talking to you in a good way anymore. From now on, this is how ill talk to you

Her: you can say goodbye to anything sweet with me. i will give you further hell for what im going through now!

Me: Darling I know you feeling terribly hurt right now. I am making my decision based on what I think is best for you and best for us

Her: You will regret this night [my name]. with all others you put me through.

Her: When you come here and dont see me, think of tonight if you cant remember the rest.

Her: I will never respond to you properly again. Always remember that.

Her: I will never give you my respect.

Overall i felt really good, I didn't get angry nor withdrawn. I didn't give her want she demanded, but also didn't get angry

[daz_bpd]

She is asking for money during her intense emotional spikes. She is threatening another break up and doesn't want me. I am not giving in to her demands, the conversation as follows:

Her: You spent 2 hours of stressing me out instead of giving me what i asked

Me: Giving you what you demand during intense emotional outbursts doesn't make things better for us

Her: I am leaving and you can forget about me. IF YOU EVER COME BACK HERE I WILL NEVER MEET UP WITH YOU

Her: I DONT CARE WHAT YOU SAY

Me: Its important I stand my ground during these times. Once you calm down we can talk about things, in a calm, neutral and loving space

Her: NO

Her: YOU WILL NEVER SEE ME AGAIN. WHEN YOU COME HERE AND CANT REACH ME, DONT TELL ME I DIDNT WARN YOU

Her: I WILL REVERT TO YOU ALL THE STRESS AND PAIN YOU CAUSED ME ALL THESE YEARS

Me: Baby, i care for you and love you very much. I am doing this to portect you from yourself

Her: [Name of her ex] WOULD NEVER HAVE PUT ME IN THIS HELL!AND I LOST HIM COZ OF YOU!

Her: YOU DONT EVEN KNOW HOW TO HANDLE ME! I HATE YOU SO MUCH! I WISH I NEVER MET YOU!

Her: WHAT THHE ___ YOU ___ingING PSYCHO FREAK

Her: ILL SHOW YOU PSYCHO IF YOU EVER COME BACK HERE, YOU'LL SEE!

Her: You are loved and care for.

Me: I am here for you once you have calmed down

Her: Not by you.

Her: I dont want your kind if love and care. I hate it and i hate YOU

Her: YOU SUCK. YOU ARE THE WORSE PERSON IVE EVER KNOWN.

Her: YOURE NOT WORTH LOSING [her ex] OVER. THIS IS SUCH HELL AND YOU ARE SATAN!

At this point she threatens to go to a local casino and borrow from a loan shark - she did this before and it almost cost her, her job and reputation.

Her:The cab smells like gasoline. ill die of intoxication before lung cancer

Her:Just to make you realize im honest of how i feel, I will never be talking to you in a good way anymore. From now on, this is how ill talk to you

Her: you can say goodbye to anything sweet with me. i will give you further hell for what im going through now!

Me: Darling I know you feeling terribly hurt right now. I am making my decision based on what I think is best for you and best for us

Her: You will regret this night [my name]. with all others you put me through.

Her: When you come here and dont see me, think of tonight if you cant remember the rest.

Her: I will never respond to you properly again. Always remember that.

Her: I will never give you my respect.

Overall i felt really good, I didn't get angry nor withdrawn. I didn't give her want she demanded, but also didn't get angry

[PLEASE - NO RUN MESSAGES]

PLEASE - NO RUN MESSAGES This is a high level discussion board for solving ongoing, day-to-day relationship conflicts. Members may appear frustrated but they are here for constructive solutions to problems. This is not a place for relationship "stay" or "leave" discussions. Please read the specific guidelines for this group.

[Mike-X]

It seems like it was very intense. It is great that you stayed centered, didn't get angry or withdrawn, and didn't compromise your boundaries. 

My only advice would be to work on inserting SE before T (from the communication tool SET: Sympathy, Empathy, before Truth) in each reply.

[daz_bpd]

*correction, this was said by me Me: You are loved and care for.

@Mike-x, thank you for your reply. Can you give me example response statements for the conversation above? for Sympathy and Empathy. When I say "I know you are feeling intense pain right now" how can i word this better?

When ive tried to use S. and E. before, she has told me "i hate it when you do that" and "who told you to say that?" "who is instructing you to say those things"

I clearly need more help expressing those vital steps in the validation process

She ahs just called me demanding me once more she sends me money and that she is at the casino now.

[OffRoad]

Suggestion:

I'm so sorry that you are out of money. I'd be miserable if I wanted to do something and wasn't able to afford it. Giving you money will not be helpful to our financial situation, so you are going to have to find some way to live within your budget.

And then "If you can't calm down, I'm going to have to hang up until you can talk to me in a non-confrontational manner. I want to work this out, but I can't be a participant when you are screaming at me.

When she threatens to go to a loan shark, "It might seem like a good idea, but then you will be spending more money in interest than you are going to get. I'd like you to have more money, not less. Can you think of other ways you could make sure you have enough money for the week/month whatever?"

This is all in an ideal world, of course, which yours isn't. It's hard to empathize with a person who has no reasoning ability regarding money.

[vortex of confusion]

Some of the things that you said were very invalidating and here is why:

Me: Giving you what you demand during intense emotional outbursts doesn't make things better for us

Very invalidating because it sounds as though you are dismissing her feelings. To her, she is not having an emotional outburst. To her, she is feeling something very strongly and you are pretty much saying, "Lalalalala, I am not listening to you because you are having feelings." And, you are telling her that YOU know what is best for US. The truth is that it isn't really what is best for "US". Not giving her any more money is what is best for you. That isn't a bad thing. How can you rephrase this so that it is said with "I" statements? Perhaps something like, "I am not going to give in to your demands. I do not have the extra money." And leave it at that. The above statement has elements of JADEing to it and would be very difficult for somebody that is already emotionally wound up to here. From my own experiences, I hate with my husband tries to tell me what is best for US. He can tell me what is best for HIM. It is up to ME to decide what is best for ME.

Its important I stand my ground during these times. Once you calm down we can talk about things, in a calm, neutral and loving space

How about keeping it more simple? "I am going to stand my ground. I will be happy to talk to you when things calm down." Don't tell her "Once you calm down" That is like pouring gasoline on a fire.

Me: Baby, i care for you and love you very much. I am doing this to portect you from yourself

When people tell me things like this, my first reaction is to think, "Who the hell died and made you God? Since when did you become my protector?" You would have been much better off you had left off the "I am doing this to protect you from yourself." That sounds so condescending. It reminds me of the things that my mother used to say and do to me when I was a kid. When somebody says that to me, I immediately feel completely invalidated and it makes me see red because of the implications that I am not a capable human being.

I am here for you once you calm down.

I know that you are trying to set boundaries. Saying this to somebody that is clearly dysregulated is not helpful and it is actually kind of invalidating. You are telling her to calm down. It is quite clear that she lacks the ability to calm down.

Me: Darling I know you feeling terribly hurt right now. I am making my decision based on what I think is best for you and best for us

It sounds to me like she is friggin' hoppin' mad. Really, she is mad because she isn't getting her way. She is throwing a temper tantrum to try to get you to give her money. When they start throwing a temper tantrum, it is sometimes best to abandon ship. What was your reason for staying in the conversation as long as you did?

Don't tell her why you are making your decision. The more you tell her that you know/think that you know what is best for her, the more invalidated she will feel and the madder she will get. If you have to keep repeating, "No, I will not give you money." That is fine. Or, if she goes off and says those horrible things, you might try to find a way to say something like, "I will not listen to this. I have to go." Make it about YOU instead of making it about her. Yes, she will be mad at you for cutting her short but you won't have to listen to her say such horrible things to you. The things that she is saying to you are verbally abusive.

[daz_bpd]

@OffRoad, thank you for your examples

@vortex of confusion, thank ou for your detailed response. I see now that I am doing a very poor job of validating her feelings.

To answer your question: vortex of confusion: "What was your reason for staying in the conversation as long as you did?" I wanted to practice the S.E.T. if I simply withdraw, i wouldn't be able to implement the ideas suggested on this website. I want to cultivate compassion and inner peace, this conversation was a great way for me to see just what emotions came out inside me, and how I dealt with them. I feel I did a good job of remaining calm, AND NOT suppressing any thing. i was able to keep working afterwards without needing to take my usual 'breaks' where I would read or write to deal with my own emotions (self-therapy).

Im going over the examples in detail, and will take my own notes so that I have a better idea to reply in the future

Thank you

[vortex of confusion]

To answer your question: vortex of confusion: "What was your reason for staying in the conversation as long as you did?" I wanted to practice the S.E.T. if I simply withdraw, i wouldn't be able to implement the ideas suggested on this website. I want to cultivate compassion and inner peace, this conversation was a great way for me to see just what emotions came out inside me, and how I dealt with them. I feel I did a good job of remaining calm, AND NOT suppressing any thing. i was able to keep working afterwards without needing to take my usual 'breaks' where I would read or write to deal with my own emotions (self-therapy).

One thing to keep in mind is that when a person is dysregulated, using validation, SET, and a lot of the other communication tools can backfire. That isn't to say that you shouldn't try though. At some point, it is a good idea to walk away from the conflict, especially if you can see that your attempts are not working the way you want them to work.

You did a great job of staying calm. There is another thread going on right now where it was brought up that the act of staying calm can be interpreted as invalidating.

I hope you weren't offended by my response. I know this stuff is really tough to deal with and takes a lot of practice.

[daz_bpd]

@vortex of confusion, no not offended at all. it seems I "can't do anything right" just like my pwBPD says so... .haha, I'm honestly in a much better place right now. I know I have a long road ahead of me and I am technically broke right now, although i have assets, I sent the last bit of my cash to her so that she gets to work and is not fired.

I'm gaining perspective. I will vow if I do marry one day to choose a partner that will be able to function in a healthy, loving relationship. Divorce must be one of the toughest things to ever go through.

[formflier]

 

This is a new way of thinking and speaking for many of us "nons" here.

My 2 cents worth... .

Figure out a point in time... .or a level of verbal or texting abuse that you will withdraw from... .

How long does she normally take to calm down?

I would make it an "I" statement... .

"I'm too upset to continue a conversation improperly... .I will check in with you in (insert approx time for her to calm down). 

For your own sake... .might be best to turn off phone... .skype... .and really have no idea what is going on.

If felt really weird to me to leave a room... .or leave the house... .knowing she was upset.  Even weirder that she (my wife) just got better... .and would seem to act as if it never happened.

This is where RA (radical acceptance) and not taking it personally comes in.

It's great to want to practice... .but... .take seriously the "stop the bleeding first"... .advice.

Many times it's better just to hush... .again... .very unnatural for most of us nons

FF

[formflier]

She is asking for money during her intense emotional spikes. She is threatening another break up and doesn't want me. I am not giving in to her demands, the conversation as follows:

Her: You spent 2 hours of stressing me out instead of giving me what i asked

Me: Giving you what you demand during intense emotional outbursts doesn't make things better for us

Her: I am leaving and you can forget about me. IF YOU EVER COME BACK HERE I WILL NEVER MEET UP WITH YOU

Her: I DONT CARE WHAT YOU SAY

Daz

Here is my first effort to SET this.  I'm also curious what has gone on for two hours... .was it a conversation.

(S) Note... .lessons say support... .I also see sympathy.  Lately I've been thinking about "supporting statements"

I'm here for you... .or (I'm on your side)

(E)  Not getting your requests met is upsetting... .(maybe send some virtual hugs... . ) if that is a function.   

I would stay away from saying "sorry you are upset"... .important to not say anything that makes you responsible for her feelings... .they are her feelings... .she is responsible... .you are providing empathy.

(T) Truth... .  (this is tricky part)  "You are able to manage your monthly budget as you see fit"  or "It's up to you to make choices about your monthly budget"

I'm tempted to suggest "I will not be sending any more until xx date"... .but I think that keeps you in the loop too much.  Remember... .she is upset... .wanting to blame you for her feelings... .you want to keep that target away from her.

I'm open to others improving my efforts... .

Also open to discuss sympathy versus support.

FF

[formflier]

 

Daz,

My apologies... .I hope you can recreate your first post.  I was one that erased... .when trying to cut and paste.

FF

[daz_bpd]

@formflier, yes it was a conversation. She starts by asking for money and I say 'no' then it gets more and more intense and she starts shouting. She would call me several times, yelling and bringing me down then would berate my ability to 'be a man for her'

I'm trying to follow S.E.T as best as possible using the examples provided

no problem, i will try re-create later. I think I got what I needed

[vortex of confusion]

(S) Note... .lessons say support... .I also see sympathy.  Lately I've been thinking about "supporting statements"

I'm here for you... .or (I'm on your side)

I have been thinking a lot about the "I'm here for you" statements that are recommended as support. I question "I am here for you" because I know how I feel when my husband tries to tell me, "I am here for you." It makes me mad because his actions show just the opposite. His actions show me that he isn't here for me. He is telling me empty words in order to soothe me. What I want is action! I can kind of see how that might apply in this situation. From the partner's perspective, she might be thinking something along the lines of, "If you were truly here for me, then you would give me money/whatever I want."

I am thinking that maybe something like, "I know how tough it is to be tight on money." or "Not having enough money is scary." Something that says, "I can only imagine how you must be feeling right now. I know that when I am in that place, I am angry, mad, frustrated, scared, etc." That might be more empathy than support/sympathy.

I sometimes have a difficult time with this one because a lot of times I do NOT support what my husband is doing or what he wants. Then, the question becomes, "How can I support him as a person without supporting whatever it is that he is doing?"

(E)  Not getting your requests met is upsetting... .(maybe send some virtual hugs... . ) if that is a function.   

I would stay away from saying "sorry you are upset"... .important to not say anything that makes you responsible for her feelings... .they are her feelings... .she is responsible... .you are providing empathy.

So true! Definitely keep your feelings and her feelings separate. My husband and I had a discussion the other day where he was trying to take responsibility for my feelings. I was talking about trying to move past some of the stuff that has happened between us. He was using a lot of we statements and us statements. I stopped him and said, "No, what you did is on YOU. I am not looking at what you are doing or have done. I am looking at MY reaction to what you have done." When he has tried to lump me into things by using US or saying things like he is sorry that I am upset, I have started cutting him off and saying, "No, this is about ME." My feelings are my responsibility. Just like his feelings are his responsibility. It has taken a long time for me to get to that point. For the longest time, I didn't really understand what that meant or even how to make the shift. Once I made the shift, it became a lot easier to catch myself and find better ways of saying things. It is a process.

(T) Truth... .  (this is tricky part)  "You are able to manage your monthly budget as you see fit"  or "It's up to you to make choices about your monthly budget"

I'm tempted to suggest "I will not be sending any more until xx date"... .but I think that keeps you in the loop too much.  Remember... .she is upset... .wanting to blame you for her feelings... .you want to keep that target away from her.

I think the YOU statements might not be the best choice. I am wondering if something like, "I will not manage your money for you or rescue you when you run out of money." I think the truth of the matter is more about Daz than it is about his partner. Stating that she can manage her budget is a lie because she has shown time and time again that she lacks the ability to work with a budget. She has no real motivation to work within a set budget because she knows that she can cry, scream, throw fits, and make threats and Daz will step in and rescue her. I think the truth is more, "I will not be sending you any more money this month." I am not sure how to phrase that in such a way that it keep her from blaming him for her feelings.

[formflier]

I think the YOU statements might not be the best choice. I am wondering if something like, "I will not manage your money for you or rescue you when you run out of money." I think the truth of the matter is more about Daz than it is about his partner. Stating that she can manage her budget is a lie because she has shown time and time again that she lacks the ability to work with a budget. She has no real motivation to work within a set budget because she knows that she can cry, scream, throw fits, and make threats and Daz will step in and rescue her. I think the truth is more, "I will not be sending you any more money this month." I am not sure how to phrase that in such a way that it keep her from blaming him for her feelings.

I think VOC makes a good point... .with good principles behind it.  Daz is the one communicating... .and he is stating the truth of what he will do.

A you statement is him "telling" her what to do... .and is reall outside of his control.

The most healthy thing seems to be that he states his truth... .she decideds on her actions.  It will go badly for a while... .as she makes bad choices... .but... .with consistency... .I think it will get better.


Daz,

One observation about people learning boundaries... .is that they "enforce" way too late.  So... .when she starts to up the ante... .after your first no... .time to set them... .

2 hours seems like a long conversation... .even for a good one.

Maybe limit yourself to shorter things... .even if going well. 

FF

[babyducks]

Hi Daz,

I had a couple of thoughts on your conversation, and this would be my approach.   Everyone is unique and what works for one, may not work for another.     

When she says:

Her: You spent 2 hours of stressing me out instead of giving me what i asked

it seems to me her mood is already high and rising.  in these moments I make sure to acknowledge the stated emotion in some way.   Usually I repeat some part of what was said to me to indicate that I was listening and to establish rapport.   My therapist, (may G-d rain blessings on her soul) would say ''ducks; less is more"  keep it simple.  keep it short.   keep it fairly neutral.  when the mood is rising no big messages.

my response would have been:

I can tell you really are stressed.  Anyone would be stressed when money is this tight.

notice the subtle shift of blaming here,   I am saying she is stressed by the money situation.   Not by what I am doing or not doing about it.  I repeated her words.   I agreed she is stressed.  I agreed she has a reason to be stressed.   Now in the back of my head I may be thinking 'yeah you are stressed because you are doing a lousy job of managing your money' but I am not about to actually say that.       Still I can validate the stress level is bloody high.   Yup.   A whole lot of stress.   

as to the "instead of giving me what I asked".

yup, this is true.    Your boundary, and you know it's a good one, is not to bail her out of her impulsive spending.   I've been following your story somewhat and I am under the impression that you can't afford to send her anymore money and you have really identified this as something very detrimental to your relationship. 

So if it was me I would say

"I understand this is difficult to hear but I will not be sending you any more money."

It's about as gentle as I can be in saying this is my line in the sand.   No more money.  I don't need to explain more than once.   I don't need to justify.   I explained.   Don't repeat myself.

Now she is going to react to that.   You can't avoid it.   Her emotions are already on the roof and she just heard a big No.   Ready yourself for an extinction burst.   You can't manage her emotions so that she never gets upset and never threatens to leave you.   There is no perfect set of words that will guarantee that won't happen.   

I suspect you are going to hear some variant of

Her: I am leaving and you can forget about me. IF YOU EVER COME BACK HERE I WILL NEVER MEET UP WITH YOU

Her: I DONT CARE WHAT YOU SAY

Oy Oy Oy Daz,  there isn't a lot you can do with this one.   Like Vortex said this is getting verbally abusive.

Me: Its important I stand my ground during these times. Once you calm down we can talk about things, in a calm, neutral and loving space

I personally like the "I statement".  I'd suggest lots more I statements.   The second sentence wasn't bad. Vortex was right, telling a person with BPD to calm down is like pouring gas on a fire.   Never turns out well.  They have heard it too many times and it feels belittling to them.

I would tweak that second sentence to "I would feel better if we could talk about this in a calm, neutral and loving space/way".   It has the advantage of being true and hard to argue with.

Her: YOU WILL NEVER SEE ME AGAIN. WHEN YOU COME HERE AND CANT REACH ME, DONT TELL ME I DIDNT WARN YOU

Her: I WILL REVERT TO YOU ALL THE STRESS AND PAIN YOU CAUSED ME ALL THESE YEARS

Okay from my view from the cheap seats this is verbally abusive.   This is a threat.   You can't let this one roll by.

I get that you wanted to practice your SET skills and try to work through this    I want to point out you can practice SET on anyone, it's actually easier to learn with people who aren't emotionally deregulated.   Try practicing with people at work, family, friends.   You dove right into the deep end my friend.       

For the barrage that is coming at you I would dig out the Yale Communication Model.  I love the Yale Communication Model.    It helps me set boundaries.   

The model is When ________ happens, I feel ________ so I will _____________.    Fill in the blanks any way you want.   

When you speak to me like that, I feel threatened and upset, so I will end this call/conversation and talk to you later.   Period.  Point blank.   And then do it Daz.     

I agree with the other posters upstream,  it should have ended earlier than it did.   You might have been able to hang in there and stay calm and learn things but clearly she couldn't, she was ramping up all the way to the end and that wasn't good for her.     Formflier had a good point, stop the bleeding is for both of you.   

One other thing I noticed.   And maybe this is just my own stuff coming out.   I noticed the use of pet names.   Normally I would suggest that pet names or affectionate nicknames are only used during affectionate conversations and this clearly wasn't one.   When pet names are used during this type of conversation the messages get really mixed.

This was a difficult conversation.   There was a lot of stuff flying in the air.   In my experience I need to boil these types of conversations down to the simplest common denominators.   Can I afford to send more money?  Would it be good for me to send more money?  Should I listen to this venom?   I can deal with two or three simple equations.   

Hang in there daz, you are doing fine.   

'ducks

[daz_bpd]

@babyducks, thank you so much for your detailed post. I will go over it several times. I'm making notes and trying to formulate a sound strategy using the guidelines you provided as well as those of other posters and the material in the articles.

[formflier]

 

The ducks post is spot on.

Especially the part about diving into the deep end.  Good on you for trying. 

Think crawl... .walk... .run.  You sort of... .IMO... .went straight for somewhere between walk and run.

I like the spunk... .I really do.  I hope we can redirect that energy and intensity a little bit... .and I think you will start to get some awesome results!