In the absence of proof.

[Family Court Strategies: When Your Partner Has BPD OR NPD Traits.]

Not knowing whether she was or was not BPD really impacts how I think about our past relationship, how I think about her now settled relationship and how I perceive my roll in what was a disaster.

In the absence of proof it is the doubt that creates the most pain. If there were proof then in some way it would remove the doubts and alleviate the impact it continues to have on my emotions.

Does anyone else feel like this?

[Ripples]

Not knowing whether she was or was not BPD really impacts how I think about our past relationship, how I think about her now settled relationship and how I perceive my roll in what was a disaster.

In the absence of proof it is the doubt that creates the most pain. If there were proof then in some way it would remove the doubts and alleviate the impact it continues to have on my emotions.

Does anyone else feel like this?

[valet]

I question my own reasoning for claiming to myself that she is a pwBPD, but I've looked at most of the evidence, have compared it to other people's stories, and I'm pretty sure I'm right.

It was definitely a strange relationship, either way.

The real nail in the coffin was that I felt like I was going crazy towards the end, and that I thought I had a whole slew of undiagnosed mental disorders myself. In hindsight, I did this because I was desperate for answers, and needed some kind of explanation as to why my relationship was failing when it seemed like I had never done anything but be the best partner I could to my ex.

We were compatible as hell. The relationship wouldn't have failed under normal circumstances (it was shocking to all of our mutual friends) unless there was some kind of obvious separating event like one of us deciding to move somewhere else without the other for an extended period of time and the other not wanting to.

That said, we did play our own part, dysfunction or not. The way she behaved towards me was definitely a catalyst to that process. My ex was one to refuse to communicate her needs, and when she did they were often subtly threatening and unreasonable, at least in context of a balanced relationship.

[Dunder]

Ripples, Yes, I have felt this way, especially when I first began to suspect BPD. I brought to my therapist a list of 20 facts about her behavior, not interpretations of what I thought were her motivations or speculation as to what she may have done, but strictly facts of what her actions and behavior consist of. I wanted to limit the effect of me filtering our relationship through my own biases and perspective.  In the process of composing my list and reflecting on her actions and my actions as well, the diagnosis became less and less important and I began to simply accept that our relationship was a very unhealthy one and that I needed to end it. I was so preoccupied with a diagnosis that I lost sight of the larger issue at hand which was that my partner behaved in ways that caused me a lot of pain, anxiety and confusion unlike any other relationship that I'd ever had.

My therapist strongly suspects BPD and I do too, but I keep looking at that list of objective facts regarding not just her behavior but the way in which I responded to her behavior and interacted with her. I have focused on those facts to guide my thinking and ultimately my decision to end my relationship with her.

I hope this helps you even just a little.

[ShadowIntheNight]

My ex is extremely high functioning. It took me 4 months AFTER she ended our relationship (we didn't break up, after 9.5 years she "faded" away, then sent me a note that her legal battle had been "life altering." Yes, that was the "reason" for her ending it.) she then scapegoated me because of what I said to her when I received the note telling me she was on a new path (her words). So somehow inexplicably, after what she had done, I get chastised for saying what I said.

I've never heard of such behavior, certainly not out of someone who seemed to have her stuff so together. Given the gift of,hindsight, I can now see there were signs of this disorder all along. I just had never heard of BPD and there was no reason for me to think my ex had an emotional disorder.

As a matter of fact, it wasn't until the last 4 years of our relationship that her behavior got noticeably different. I felt like for the most part that the attention and adulation she was receiving at work was going to her head, and this was causing her to become "invincible." And even stupid things like her being head of her kid's PTA group this past school year made her think she was on the next train to fame and fortune (I kid you not).

The point is I don't know if my ex is BPD. I am sure she has never been diagnosed with the disorder. I am sure she thinks what she does is perfectly normal. And if you have everyone telling you how wonderful you are, than how could there be something wrong with you, right?

And to top all of this off my ex is a therapist. she counsels people with emotional disorders! So do I wonder if she has this or not? I used to. I used to a lot. Then I started finding journals from several years back and discovered I had written about elements of the disorder that she was doing that caused me trouble back then. This wasn't once, this was many times. Then I started seeing how her actions over the 10 years could lead me to be about 96% sure she does indeed suffer from this.

And it is still possible I am wrong. And if I am, then she is just a lowdown despicable person. Unfortunately I can't look past her behaviors and conclude that she is anything but someone with an emotional disorder, because I am sure that her being lowdown and despicable would have taken longer than 9.5 years to rear its ugly head.

So doubt if you must, but then start doing some detective work and see what you learn. You may be surprised. It turns out I had way too much evidence to conclude otherwise. And I will say this, no normal sane person ends a relationship the way she did. The ending is the biggest clue, but in reality in my case it was the first clear clue something was wrong with her. Everything else I found a way to excuse. There's no excuse for her ending it that way after 9.5 years. Unless she is disordered.

[Bensonshays]

Not knowing whether she was or was not BPD really impacts how I think about our past relationship, how I think about her now settled relationship and how I perceive my roll in what was a disaster.

In the absence of proof it is the doubt that creates the most pain. If there were proof then in some way it would remove the doubts and alleviate the impact it continues to have on my emotions.

Does anyone else feel like this?

I talked to my therapist about this just yesterday. After posting here,  I told him I didn't want to pathologize her behavior (or mine) as a means of coping with the break up. He reiterated that her behavior matches that of his borderline patients, but that I need to work on screening potential girlfriends and being willing to walk away if I see things that could threaten a long-term relationship.

Regardless of why she was doing the things she was doing,  I put up with them because I wasn't confident enough. I was afraid I couldn't replace her. I'm willing to bet that a lot people here need to work on the same thing.

[Ripples]

Hello everybody and thank you for your excellent replies.

Valet, what you say about your feelings are exactly the feelings and thoughts I had during my own relationship. All the while, I had a degree of sanity that made me believe that what was happening was completely illogical and it was probably my desire for answers that ultimately drove her away. I guess I was trying to look behind the cracking mirror which to her was forbidden. It wasn't until after the relationship that "Personality Disorder" even came on my radar and it was then that answers began to fall in to place and I realised my part in the dance. Despite the assumptions the evidence was strong as it was for you.

Dunder, yes your words do help. You seem to be stronger in so much that you don't doubt your judgement regarding her actions. They were toxic like no other and I experienced this too obviously. Having a therapist confirm that these actions were not healthy and may point to a disorder would help enormously. Some thing I have not had. That said I did know I had to get out to save my sanity and remove the pain. Like you, I too believe that had she not been the victim of her own problems we would have had a fabulous life because we had so much to offer each other. Maybe this thought is an error!

Shadowinthenight, I think knowing about the disorder during the relationship would have had a significant impact on how I handled things. Thinking back I hate myself for how I dealt with things and I carry a lot of shame as a result. That insight would have helped so much during the relationship and would have eased the pain of separation to some degree. Maybe even possibly saved the relationship. Mine too loved adulation and many of her motivations were adulation based rather than for personal fulfillment. Even today she expends a lot of energy promoting herself in the eyes of her adoring public. The energy this must take is mind boggling! All the evidence over the years stacks up and does point in the right direction, but accepting this is proving difficult recently in the absence of proof! This is something I need to learn how to deal with. But as you say, if she isn't then she is a low down despicable person for hurting someone to that degree, and never really apologizing for the impact it had. I have had apologies regarding what SHE said or what SHE did but never an acknowledgement regarding the hurt and pain it caused. Maybe i'm just being wet. When it ended I was the one to ask if she wanted to carry on. She said that she wanted to be on her own, but then tried to make love. Says it all really, I think I was nothing more than a convenient f***!

Bensonshays, I think our self confidence does take a huge hammering and towards to the end there are a multitude of reasons as to why we let the abuse continue. Whats worse is that after the relationship ended I allowed myself to fall into the push/pull situation. She wanted to hear from me, told me she loved me but didn't want to see me. That was a kick in the teeth that has led to my pain even today. And of course she is now married, two kids and settled. That image also adds to the confusion and doubt!

Are your respective's now settled like this and if so does this make you question yourself?

[Bensonshays]

Bensonshays, I think our self confidence does take a huge hammering and towards to the end there are a multitude of reasons as to why we let the abuse continue. Whats worse is that after the relationship ended I allowed myself to fall into the push/pull situation. She wanted to hear from me, told me she loved me but didn't want to see me. That was a kick in the teeth that has led to my pain even today. And of course she is now married, two kids and settled. That image also adds to the confusion and doubt!

Are your respective's now settled like this and if so does this make you question yourself?

More or less, yes, my perspective is set. If put in a similar situation in the future, I know what I would do differently. I also know what I need to work on moving forward. Your points about allowing the abuse to continue and your confidence taking a hit get to the heart of the matter. No one should tolerate consistently bad behavior from a partner, and their antics shouldn't shake you (or me) up as badly as they did. 

[Dunder]

Dunder, yes your words do help. You seem to be stronger in so much that you don't doubt your judgement regarding her actions. They were toxic like no other and I experienced this too obviously. Having a therapist confirm that these actions were not healthy and may point to a disorder would help enormously. Some thing I have not had. That said I did know I had to get out to save my sanity and remove the pain. Like you, I too believe that had she not been the victim of her own problems we would have had a fabulous life because we had so much to offer each other. Maybe this thought is an error!

I wouldn't describe myself as very strong right now. The nature of these relationships is that you begin to lose your grip on what's normal relationship strife and what's unhealthy disordered codependent stuff. I began to question my abilities to interpret human behavior so much that I had to make a list of empirical information, things that left very little room for interpretation.  Like for example that my EX is a beautiful woman but has by her own admission never married and has gone through countless bad relationships. Or that she has an abusive father, or that she has suicidal ideations, or that she texts me 50 times per day. I stopped listening to her words and looked at just basic facts. Once these facts started to sink in and I began to withdraw from her, I was able to trust my interpretation of her words again. I am 37 days post b/u and the further I get away from the relationship, the more compassion I have for her even though she said and did some very painful things to me. I miss her intelligence, her wit and her beauty, but the pain she caused me wasn't worth it. Our first obligation is to ourselves. We can't help others and have a positive impact on our world if we don't first take care of ourselves. I never knew at the age of 50 I would be learning this lesson in such a gut wrenching way. But I needed to learn it.  

[Dunder]

Regardless of why she was doing the things she was doing,  I put up with them because I wasn't confident enough. I was afraid I couldn't replace her. I'm willing to bet that a lot people here need to work on the same thing.

Benson, In my opinion, this is the great lesson that I have taken away from this experience. I failed to set boundaries for interactions so that I wouldn't develop a painful codependent relationship.  It's like my ego took me on a joy ride, but at any moment I could have taken the keys back from my ego and let off on the gas and I didn't. I have so much more respect for the potential damage that the male ego can cause.

[Lifewriter16]

Dear All,

I sympathise with your need for proof. Proof seems to promise an end to self-doubt, but that hasn't really happened for me.

I went into my relationship with my ex-bf knowing he had BPD. Though he has done DBT followed by 2 years in schema therapy, he still projects onto me, still says it's me who is angry and insecure, still says I initiated breakups when it was him who said; "Goodbye! Have a nice life!" Basically, he still acts in a very unstable manner despite all the help he has received. Now he has been discharged from services and thinks he's cured. He thinks his Healthy Adult is there most of the time, even though, at another time he admitted to me that he is in Detached Protector virtually all of the time and only saw 'me' for the first time about 2 weeks ago despite having known me for almost a year. Now, he is back in denial about his problems only what's different now is he has lots of psychological jargon to attack me with too. I find that I have to reflect a great deal to determine whether there is anything in his criticisms. When I apologise for the part I play in our problems, he seems to think I am blaming myself for everything when I am actually trying to model decent behaviour to him. Occasionally he will admit to a problem, but mostly he blames everything that goes wrong between us either on me or on circumstances.

Am I being too negative in thinking the whole process has barely impacted on his BPD?

[Trog]

I have mountains of proof that my wife is disordered (if not BPD) and I still have nagging doubts! It may not help as much as you'd think if you're doubting yourself. However I do think it helps me in knowing I made the right decision to leave (finally!). I know for sure she will continue to have disaster relationships whether she's with a weak or strong person until she faces her demons. And as the most stubborn and illogical and least self aware person I know I'd be highly surprised if she ever managed that. Though, I hope she does sort herself out and find happiness (just not before I do  )

[Bensonshays]

Regardless of why she was doing the things she was doing,  I put up with them because I wasn't confident enough. I was afraid I couldn't replace her. I'm willing to bet that a lot people here need to work on the same thing.

Benson, In my opinion, this is the great lesson that I have taken away from this experience. I failed to set boundaries for interactions so that I wouldn't develop a painful codependent relationship.  It's like my ego took me on a joy ride, but at any moment I could have taken the keys back from my ego and let off on the gas and I didn't. I have so much more respect for the potential damage that the male ego can cause.

Same here. She did some things that weren't abusive to me directly,  but they were signs that a long term relationship would have been difficult, to say the least.

But after two years of endless dating, I was so happy to be with this beautiful,  feminine girl who seemed so compatible with me that I ignored the warning signs.

Even now, though,  knowing what I know, I miss her. I feel stupid for opening up to her and emasculated because she dropped me in an instant and ran to one of her backup boyfriends. The combination of emotions makes me want to punch a wall.

[LonelyChild]

Am I being too negative in thinking the whole process has barely impacted on his BPD?

For how long was he in DBT?

No, you are not being too negative. BPD seems to be a life sentence, and there seems to be very little hope for change.

[Lifewriter16]

Hi LonelyChild

My BPDbf was approx 6 months in DBT. I suspect it was a DBT course rather than personal therapy.

He finished his schema therapy group at the end of March dumping me two weeks before it finished (that split lasted two days, as I smoothed things over that time) and one week afterwards (which lasted for 17 days because I let him experience the repercussions of his actions). During the time I've known him, it has been clear that he has carefully managed the impression he has given his therapists focusing on his progress rather than his struggles. Now his therapy has ended, I see no hope for any improvement between us. When he ended our relationship again at the end of April, I did not try to dissuade him. He is now my ex-bf, but it still hurts.

[Tay25]

I also had second thoughts about whether my exgf really had BPD or not but there are a few facts that makes me almost certain, these being the unknown self and her lack of empathy. She acted fake in public and many people could tell. She also had no idea what her interests, hobbies, and goals were. They were all based on her friends or whomever was the dominant person in her life.

I've come to realize the diagnosis doesn't really matter, whats matters are the facts and reality. My ex's behavior was abusive and hurtful, whether she was BPD or not. A respectful and caring person doesn't treat people like s***, especially a person you "love".