My mother

[EaglesJuju]

This is my first post on this board. I have been working through my issues with my SO and have not had the opportunity to focus on my relationship with my mother. I think it is finally time for me to start addressing my relationship with my mother. There is so much to say and I do not know where to begin.

My mother is diagnosed with schizophrenia and Bipolar. I am highly certain that she suffers from BPD as well. She fits into the witch queen typology of BPD mothers.

She has made my life a nightmare ever since I was a young child. I have endured physical, emotional, and mental abuse from her for as long as I can remember. The years of abuse has wreaked havoc on my self-esteem. 

Although I am an adult, I still live in fear of her. She calls me literally 5 times a day. The calls are never about how I am doing, they are always about her and her needs. She thinks that everything should revolve around her. In fact she says that she should be the most important thing in my life, even more important than myself.

Recently, I had to put my beloved dog down. I have been really upset with that decision. Instead of being understanding and supportive, she has been projecting her own vitriol towards me. During the last week, I have been told I am "evil, selfish, cruel, and a horrible child."  The worst was when she told me two days ago that I deserved to be beaten and I should go kill myself. 

She tells me that I do not deserve to be her child and she does not want to talk to me ever again. I know that she will not go through with her threat. Honestly, sometimes I wish she would never talk to me again. I would be relieved somewhat. 

I know I should not pick the phone up when she calls me, but I end up doing so, even though I know every phone conversation is FOG based. I have always wanted to go NC with her, but my family makes me feel guilty and tells me that she just loves me and is mentally ill. Then I cave in and feel guilty. 

I can use communication techniques and radically accept my SO's BPD, but I cannot fully accept my mother. She has inflicted so much pain on me, it is hard for me to get the point of radical acceptance.

I do not know how to get to a point where her behavior does not affect me or destroy my self-esteem. 

[Naughty Nibbler]

EAGLESJUJU:

Sorry your mother and relatives are causing you so much pain.  Thought I'd offer some thoughts for you to consider.

During the last week, I have been told I am "evil, selfish, cruel, and a horrible child."  The worst was when she told me two days ago that I deserved to be beaten and I should go kill myself. 

That's alarming.  I can understand how distraught you are.  Is she off her meds? 

I know I should not pick the phone up when she calls me, but I end up doing so, even though I know every phone conversation is FOG based. I have always wanted to go NC with her, but my family makes me feel guilty and tells me that she just loves me and is mentally ill. Then I cave in and feel guilty. 

Anyone who tries to make you feel guilty for going NC with your mom, has to have their own mental issues to acknowledge and deal with.

Handling a BPDH has to be more than enough to handle.  Consider announcing to the family members who are trying to make you feel guilty, that you are going NC with your mom and the issue isn't open for debate.

Your relatives need your help, "to make you feel guilty".  Don't give them that power.  Because they want to take the abuse from your mom, doesn't obligate you to do the same.

Don't answer her calls.  Plenty of ways to block calls these days.  If necessary, change your phone number.   I use my landline phone number for junk calls, - situations where I have to give a phone number to some entity I do business with who is likely to do robo calls to me.  I never answer it and everything goes to voicemail.  (have your husband screen the voicemails and ask that he just deletes the calls from mom without even telling you).  If necessary, change your cell phone number and only share it with those you trust.  You can alway set your cell phone options, to NOT show your caller ID to anyone. That way, you could place a call to someone and they won't get an id to learn what phone number you are calling from.  Y ou can change the setting back and forth as desired.

Bring whatever degree of sanity possible into your live!  You have the power and it's no one else's decision other than yours.

[EaglesJuju]

That's alarming.  I can understand how distraught you are.  Is she off her meds? 

I do not believe that she is off her medication. If she were, she would be more unstable.

Her nasty remarks obviously do not help and make me feel horrible about myself.

Anyone who tries to make you feel guilty for going NC with your mom, has to have their own mental issues to acknowledge and deal with.

My grandmother is the biggest advocate of me not going NC with my mother. My grandmother is in hospice right now and thinks that I should be understanding. My mother has lashed out at my grandmother and put her through hell in the past, but she respects my grandmother.

My mother truly does not have respect towards me. I have established boundaries, such as do not call me after a certain time, but my mother does not abide by the boundaries.

I do not answer her calls and usually forward them to voicemail. If I do not respond, she will threaten me. When I have not been in contact with her, she has carried out those threats. She has called my brother's college and told the dean that my brother was on drugs (obviously not true), when my brother did not speak to her. She has done similar things to me when I was not speaking to her.  Honestly, I am afraid that will happen again if I got NC.

[Naughty Nibbler]

EAGLESJUJU:

Is your grandma under hospice at your mom's home, or in a hospice facility?  Usually, hospice is for patients who have less than 6 months to live.  How much longer do you think your grandma has?  If your grandma is still living in your mother's home, then you have a more difficult situation.

If grandma is in your mother's home, you might want to plan to go NC after your grandma passes and post death issues are handled. Are your grandma's memory and mental facilities still good?

I just read a post this morning, where someone shared a strategy they have used with the BPD in their life (can't remember who gave the advice).  They proactively inform their employer about a possible problem with the BPD.  That way, they weren't sitting on pins and needles - leaving the BPD with the power to blackmail them.

Your brother might want to speak to a school counselor and inform them that his mom is BPD and emotionally blackmails him to get what she wants. Have them put something in his records.  Should mom call the school again, she won't have any power and after they look at your brother's records, they will know that your mom is mentally ill.

So sorry about your grandma.  I can see how she enters into the equation.  After grandma passes, you might consider getting a restraining order against your mom.  Offensive and threatening emails and voicemails are bad enough, but emotional blackmail and calling employers, schools and other entities with the intent to do harm is a more serious matter.

Just some thoughts to consider.  I don't know what I don't know, so some suggestions might not be right for you.

[EaglesJuju]

Is your grandma under hospice at your mom's home, or in a hospice facility?  Usually, hospice is for patients who have less than 6 months to live.  How much longer do you think your grandma has?  If your grandma is still living in your mother's home, then you have a more difficult situation.

My grandmother is at her home. My mother has her own residence. My grandmother is living on borrowed time at the moment.

Are your grandma's memory and mental facilities still good?

Yes they are. 

I just read a post this morning, where someone shared a strategy they have used with the BPD in their life (can't remember who gave the advice).  They proactively inform their employer about a possible problem with the BPD.  That way, they weren't sitting on pins and needles - leaving the BPD with the power to blackmail them.

I have hid where I worked from my mother before, but she ended up finding out. She can be very manipulative and sneaky.

I have spoke with my employers about her, but she really is that good at manipulating people. 

So sorry about your grandma.  I can see how she enters into the equation.  After grandma passes, you might consider getting a restraining order against your mom.  Offensive and threatening emails and voicemails are bad enough, but emotional blackmail and calling employers, schools and other entities with the intent to do harm is a more serious matter.

I have thought about this. I do know when my grandmother passes away, my mother is going to be incredibly unstable. I can see her lashing out towards me and other family members once it happens.

[Naughty Nibbler]

EAGLESJUJU:

Does your grandma have someone living with her on a full time basis, 24/7?

Are you aware of your grandma's will and/or trust provisions? Do some insurance policies or accounts have beneficiaries referenced or are there some joint accounts (with grandma and mom)?  Does your grandma have a financial power of attorney, medical power of attorney? 

Just mentioning some things to define and understand and to have your grandma have an opportunity to make any adjustments to prior to death, or to explain to family.

Learn what you can directly from grandma.  If everything goes to your mom, then it will be easier to go NC after grandmas' death.  If multiple family members are beneficiaries on the house and other titled assets or untitled assets.  Things could get problematic, especially if someone in the family acts as executor/adminstator. 

Knowledge can be power, so knowing about your grandmas' estate in advance, could be helpful.  Having conversations about wills and family trusts can be difficult conversations to have, but it will be worthwhile. Hopefully there is clarity in a will/trust and limited room for conflict in handling the estate after grandma passes. 

[EaglesJuju]

Does your grandma have someone living with her on a full time basis, 24/7?

Yes, she does have someone living with her on a full time basis, that is not a family member.

Are you aware of your grandma's will and/or trust provisions? Do some insurance policies or accounts have beneficiaries referenced or are there some joint accounts (with grandma and mom)?  :)oes your grandma have a financial power of attorney, medical power of attorney?  

My grandmother does have a will and has provisions for all involved or included in the will. My mother does not have power of attorney.

Learn what you can directly from grandma.  If everything goes to your mom, then it will be easier to go NC after grandmas' death.  If multiple family members are beneficiaries on the house and other titled assets or untitled assets.  Things could get problematic, especially if someone in the family acts as executor/administrator.  

The assets are going to be divided amongst my mother and uncles.  My grandmother had enough forethought to make sure that there would be minimal fighting amongst family members. Regardless, my mother will most likely end up trying to sue the rest of the family. She has sued a large portion of my family members throughout the years for frivolous things.  

She has split many of my family members black at one point, including my grandmother.  I can see it becoming tumultuous when my grandmother passes away. I certainly do not want to be anywhere near her when that happens.

I have spent most of my life being empathetic towards her.  Lately, I have found myself being incredibly angry towards her. I have been working through some difficult things at therapy. The origin of the majority of my issues of self-esteem, feeling unworthy/unloved, and constant guilt/self-doubt stem from her emotional and physical abuse over the years.

[Panda39]

My disclaimer  ... .The co-parenting board is my home base but I frequently lurk on this board.  My SO has an uBPDxw and two daughters so I'm often lurking here trying to understand what types of things his daughters might have to negotiate.  I want you to know that you help me to better understand and better help two young ladies that struggle too.

Your relatives need your help, "to make you feel guilty".  Don't give them that power.

Naughty the quote above is a gem    I'm going to share that with my SO who has a D14 struggling with a lot of guilt around her uBPDmom.  You are so right about giving them the power.

EaglesJuju,

I'm sorry to hear of the loss of your dog it's tough to lose our furry family members. 

I don't have any brilliant words of advice, but did want to say that I'm glad you posted.  It's a brave thing to look this stuff in the face.  No little child or adult child for that matter should have to be a victim any type of abuse.  I also want you to know that there are others on this board that will understand exactly what you've gone through.  Keep up the good work.  As they used to say in the old Lorial commercials "You're Worth It" 

[EaglesJuju]

Hi Panda39,

Thanks for the warm welcome. 

Your relatives need your help, "to make you feel guilty".  Don't give them that power.

I struggle so much with guilt. I can get to a place where I am feeling good about myself, but between my mother and SO, they pile on so much guilt that I end up feeling horrible about myself.

I'm sorry to hear of the loss of your dog it's tough to lose our furry family members. 

Thank you. I do miss my fur baby. She was the best friend ever.

My mother was "upset" about the loss of my dog. I called her and asked her if she wanted to say goodbye before I went to the veterinarian. She came over and sat on the couch. Obviously I was really upset.  She made a point to start discussing the method that the veterinarian was going to use to put down my dog in a grotesque manner. I said, "Mom this is really upsetting me." She gave me a disgusted look and started talking about her life and how I should be upset and feel bad for her instead of my dog.

As compared to my SO, it is very hard for me to radically accept her. Sometimes I can forgive her and feel bad that mental illness has destroyed her life, but then I think about the destruction that she has caused in mine and my empathy slowly dissipates.

[pessim-optimist]

Hello EaglesJuju,

Welcome to the Coping board!  

It must be so hard to go through all of this in time when you need support... .

As I am reading this thread, it seems to me that you would ideally like to go NC, but for many reasons do not believe that it is safe or doable at this point. I am sorry, that feeling that you aren't safe must be hard; and the fact that your grandmother might not be here for too long and then things might get worse must be really stressful... .

One thing stands out to me in your post:

... .but I cannot fully accept my mother. She has inflicted so much pain on me, it is hard for me to get the point of radical acceptance.

In my opinion, radical acceptance means radically accepting reality - that the person is mentally ill, that they will behave the way they behave and that without therapy they will remain the same.

To me, it does not mean that their behavior is acceptable, and it does not mean that I have to accept them the way they are... .

You seem to have gone through a lot of trauma with your mother, and since you say she fits the queen/witch type, often it may not be safe or advisable for you to be around her.

You may have read the book: Understanding the Borderline Mother, by Christine Lawson. If so, it may help you to re-read some of the passages on how to protect yourself from the harmful behaviors of queens and witches. If you haven't read it yet, it might be a good time for you to read it with the disclaimer that some readers find it very intense, in that case, take it easy and only if you can handle it.

In any case, probably the most helpful piece if information regarding the witch behavior called the TURN (when the person suddenly turns into a cold, cruel and hurtful individual) is the advice that whenever the witch "appears" on the scene, the only safe protection against that is to disappear from her presence: i.e. immediately leave, hang up the phone etc.

I do not know how to get to a point where her behavior does not affect me or destroy my self-esteem.

There might be some BPD behaviors of your mother that are not directly aimed at you that you may learn to live with and to deal with in a manner that doesn't affect you any more, but the direct attacks that stem from the witch character will always be extremely harmful and that is why the book suggests that the only way to deal with that is to leave the scene as soon as the attack starts.

I hope this helps a bit, you are going through a really tough time... . 

(I have just cross-posted with you - it does not seem to apply directly to what you talk about in your last post, but I thought of sharing it anyway as it might well apply in general)

[EaglesJuju]

In my opinion, radical acceptance means radically accepting reality - that the person is mentally ill, that they will behave the way they behave and that without therapy they will remain the same.

To me, it does not mean that their behavior is acceptable, and it does not mean that I have to accept them the way they are... .

Unfortunately,  I cannot accept her mental illness. I often think of her as a non-disordered person at times. When I think like that, it really affects my self-esteem. That is something I have been trying to work on in therapy, but I have been swamped with issues from the other disordered people in my life. 

You seem to have gone through a lot of trauma with your mother, and since you say she fits the queen/witch type, often it may not be safe or advisable for you to be around her.

I try my best to distance myself from her, but it is hard.

In any case, probably the most helpful piece if information regarding the witch behavior called the TURN (when the person suddenly turns into a cold, cruel and hurtful individual) is the advice that whenever the witch "appears" on the scene, the only safe protection against that is to disappear from her presence: i.e. immediately leave, hang up the phone etc.

I have not read the book yet, but I am definitely going to. As ridiculous as it sounds, I feel awful when I hang up the phone. It feels like I reinforce her hateful comments about me being selfish and horrible. Then I end up just listening to her hateful diatribe until I say, "Mom I have to go." I end up feeling guilty and a sadomasochist. 

There might be some BPD behaviors of your mother that are not directly aimed at you that you may learn to live with and to deal with in a manner that doesn't affect you any more, but the direct attacks that stem from the witch character will always be extremely harmful and that is why the book suggests that the only way to deal with that is to leave the scene as soon as the attack starts.

She is completely different from my SO. Both have a victim mentality, but she can truly affect me more. 

[Leaving]

Hi Eagles 

I haven't read every post but I think I read enough that I can understand what you're going through.  Gosh, it just amazes me what you and I and others have had to deal with relative to our mothers ( or fathers).  You are very strong.  Remember that!

If it helps any, I will tell you that I too went through the stage of wanting NC, guilt and even the guilt of my maternal grandmother.  I did the NC anyway and it was really rough for two days afterward and at holidays for about a year but I got through it and it got easier and it was truly what helped me the most.  Don't look at the NC as a forever thing.  Just take it a day at a time but give yourself the space you need and deserve without feeling guilty.  Everyone's situation is different so, you need to decide what your needs are and how to handle the NC or the contact in a way that allows you peace of mind and self respect. 

My grandmother understood why I had to do the NC though she rarely would talk about it with me. I think she felt guilt saying bad things about her daughter.  She also had her reasons for wanting us all intact and 'happy'.  She was old, nearing death and of course she wanted to know that everyone would be happy and fine after she was gone ( peace of mind).  It also made her feel guilty to know that my mother was so evil and abusive toward me and that I had no father and no mother or brother and that I was alone.   As long as everyone pretended we were fine, then my grandmother lived happily in denial.  Denial comes so easy for everyone in my family except me.  The other issue was that because my family was so small ( just my mother, brother and her at the time) it was noticeable when I wasn't present and therefore made her feel uneasy.  OH WELL that was her/their problem. 

For several years, i would arrange to visit my grandmother at times before or after holidays.  At one point I told my brother that I could no longer have a relationship with him if it required me having one with our mother and he got angry with me and refused to have one with me.  He accused me of being bitter, unforgiving and difficult.  Oh well!  I try to have compassion and empathy for everyone in these awful situations but the bottom line is that none of them were going to help themselves and certainly not going to help me. 

Eagles, you've got to take care of yourself FIRST.  I know it feels wrong- like you're neglecting or being selfish but trust me, you're not. Yeah it feels wrong because it's wrong that anyone would behave in such a way that we must consider such drastic measures but you're not wrong for doing so.  You did not choose your parents and you don't have to be responsible for them.  To honor them ( in the Bible) only means to provide a proper burial out of respect since they are human too and they did give you life ( that's what a Minister and a Rabbi told me anyway).  Write down specifically what things you would regret or fear if you do the NC and write down the positive things you imagine if you do NC.  Think about it logically and try to be as objective as you can.  Think about how you can benefit from staying in contact and how it could harm you.  I wrote everything I felt and thought down on paper.  I still have all those notes from years ago to serve as a reminder of what I've been through.

NC for even a few weeks or months can help you gain a more realistic perspective of your situation and yourself.  I'm still discovering ways that my mother abused me that I actually thought was normal.  I have low contact with my mother now and that's enough. She knows I'm wise and ' on to her' and it makes her very uncomfortable.  I would have never made any contact with my mother if I had been a better situation in my marriage.   I only contacted her because I was terrified of my husband and I was living in a hotel.  I have no family or friends now and so, I reached out to her just to know I had ' some' protection or someone who knew where I was.  What a joke.  She cares nothing for me as always but even so, I felt I needed to reach out.  In some way it does provide a sense of not being so alone in the world but it's really just an illusion. She's really not a mother and certainly not a friend.   

Hope that helps in some way.

[EaglesJuju]

Hi Leaving,

Thank you for sharing your story.    I am truly sorry for your struggles with your mother.

Eagles, you've got to take care of yourself FIRST.  I know it feels wrong- like you're neglecting or being selfish but trust me, you're not. Yeah it feels wrong because it's wrong that anyone would behave in such a way that we must consider such drastic measures but you're not wrong for doing so. 

Putting myself before my mother is something that I know I need to do. I need to be able to stop feeling so guilty all the time. My own feelings of guilt have truly gotten in the way of my life.

I have always imagined what it would be like not feeling guilty. I am sure I would have less anxiety. My self-esteem would be constant, instead of constantly being broken by other's words/behaviors.

I have forgiven her for most of her abuse, but I have not truly forgotten. It is hard to forget the years of being physically/mentally abused and then getting blamed for the abuse that she inflicted upon me. My scars of her abuse is reminded to me on a daily basis by my suffering from dependent personality disorder (DPD). I was never one to shift blame on someone and I have always taken responsibility for my behavior, but there is a part of me that resents her. 

I never was allowed or able to be angry with her. During my younger years, I was told that I should disregard her behavior because she is mentally ill. I just suppressed all my feelings. Now these repressed feelings have started to emerge. I never experienced anger before.  How do you work through anger and repressed feelings from abuse?

[Leaving]

Hi Leaving,

Thank you for sharing your story.    I am truly sorry for your struggles with your mother.

Eagles, you've got to take care of yourself FIRST.  I know it feels wrong- like you're neglecting or being selfish but trust me, you're not. Yeah it feels wrong because it's wrong that anyone would behave in such a way that we must consider such drastic measures but you're not wrong for doing so. 

Putting myself before my mother is something that I know I need to do. I need to be able to stop feeling so guilty all the time. My own feelings of guilt have truly gotten in the way of my life.

I have always imagined what it would be like not feeling guilty. I am sure I would have less anxiety. My self-esteem would be constant, instead of constantly being broken by other's words/behaviors.

I have forgiven her for most of her abuse, but I have not truly forgotten. It is hard to forget the years of being physically/mentally abused and then getting blamed for the abuse that she inflicted upon me. My scars of her abuse is reminded to me on a daily basis by my suffering from dependent personality disorder (DPD). I was never one to shift blame on someone and I have always taken responsibility for my behavior, but there is a part of me that resents her. 

I never was allowed or able to be angry with her. During my younger years, I was told that I should disregard her behavior because she is mentally ill. I just suppressed all my feelings. Now these repressed feelings have started to emerge. I never experienced anger before.  How do you work through anger and repressed feelings from abuse?

Everything you know and believe about yourself has been manufactured by your mother and all her enablers for their benefit- not your's.  Mentally ill or not, she is what she is and she does what she does.  Understanding that someone is ill is one thing but it doesn't justify tolerating abuse. There are professionally trained doctors and nurses whose job is to care for sick people.



I've wrestled with the concept of forgiveness many times in my life and it wasn't until I read something by Alice Miller on forgiveness that I began to understand what forgiveness really is and how it is expected in dysfunctional families, religions, etc... .  I finally arrived at my own conclusions and you will too once you separate and begin living your own life. I think forgiveness can mean different things to different people at different times in their lives but for me forgiveness is something that is given to someone who deserves it and understands the value of it.  Otherwise, it is abused by others and given by us in vain.  Forgiveness is something 'earned' by people who were seeking it by rectifying their mistakes or changing their behavior.  My mother has never asked for forgiveness, she's never 'earned' it, never changed her behavior.  So, why should I forgive someone who doesn't want it or need it or value it?   I don't harbor anger or resentment toward her.  I never did which is actually the reason why it took me so long to find my way out of her web.  I was always forgiving, always willing to start over because that is who I am and to be frank, most people are willing to forgive anything when the person who harmed them quits harming them or quits doing the harmful things. I've learned that when someone doesn't repeat, I just tend to go with the flow as if nothing ever happened.  I am always a forgiving person and I would guess that you are as well.  Those are good qualities in our character that are being spoiled and abused by people who abuse it. 


Recently, my mother accused me of causing my husband to abuse me.  I calmly looked at her and said, ' That is the most cruel and untrue thing you have ever said to me and confirms that you are a selfish coward who always chose to neglect my needs because you couldn't handle the truth or your contribution to my pain and suffering. It's because of comments like that, that I ended up with an abusive husband. Most mothers want better for their daughters but you always wanted me to suffer mom, why is that?"   She didn't say a word but she didn't apologize either.  After she left, I felt a pang of guilt.  I thought about sending her an email apologizing for speaking to her in such a direct way but I gave myself some time to sit on my feelings and thoughts and I wrote in my journal and I chose not to apologize for being honest and defending myself.  NC for many years on an off allowed me to step far enough out of her web that I was able to put her abuse and my reactions to her abuse into a healthy perspective. I see her in a totally different light now- it's very clear to me what she is and how she treated me and why.  It gave me the emotional independence to be able to bloom into my authentic self.  I still have a LONG way to go but I'm on the right track and I actively work at it every day in all that I do.  Every experience is 'new' to me- The way I relate to others, the choices that I make.  It's like being born again and starting all over on my terms.  I have nothing to lose by creating my own life- even if it means losing my mother in the process.  After all, I never had a mother anyway, right?

Here a couple of other examples of how my mother didn't care about my well being or safety or health:

I had a lump in my breast- she was angry that I went to the doctor because if it turned out to be cancer then it could wipe out her inheritance ( medical costs)

My house was broken into, ransacked and I was robbed- she accused me of socializing with bad people and therefore I got what I deserved

I was raped in college- I was told not to press charges and to pretend that it didn't happen because it was my fault that I went to school that night and spoke to the man who raped me.

I had scarlet fever and she would not take me to the doctor until the neighbors and school forced her.

I had a stomach ulcer at 18 with internal bleeding and she got angry because I didn't go to work and drove me to the doctor in an angry fury as if I was faking it and didn't want to work.  They immediately rushed me to the hospital in an ambulance where she proceeded to cry and pretend to care. 

Should I forgive her?  I don't see how that would benefit anyone and frankly, I think that forgiving those kind of behaviors hinders a persons healing because it gives them a sense that what was done to them was not important enough to acknowledge in its proper context.  Therefore, we believe that we are not worthy enough to acknowledge what happened to us and that we are justified in feeling hurt, confused and angry.  I believe that forgiving these type of people and their behaviors just confuses our perception of ourselves and of others and causes us to tolerate more and more the things we should not.  We keep forgiving and hoping things will change and we end up becoming so run over, so exhausted, so hurt and we learn that it is up to us to tolerate because it's our attitude that is problem.  It's one thing to take the high road when it's just an isolated incident of bad character but to keep on doing that just turns us into road pavement.

Here's the link to Alice Millers Essay:  She does a much better job of explaining my thoughts on forgiveness than I do:

www.alice-miller.com/articles_en.php?nid=48

I also recommend her books.

I believe and KNOW that the truth and only the whole truth sets us free.  The way we are taught to forgive doesn't align with living in truth. Women especially are often told that they have to keep their husbands in line.  Please!  As if men are mindless pathetic beings who can't help themselves.  When people live in truth, there is no need to consciously put forth any effort to forgive and anger is only a temporary feeling.  If my mother came to me today and said, ' I realize what I've done, I realize how I've hurt you, etc... .and I'm willing to help you in any way that I can" , I would welcome her into my life without any hesitation.  But, she's not going to do that.  Until she does, she does not deserve my forgiveness because has never asked for it.  I know that sounds harsh as if I'm angry but I'm not angry at her at all.  She is what she is and she just happens to be my mother.  I can't help that or change that. The only thing I can do is take care of me and my own life.  I only allow her in my life on MY terms only.  I will not allow her to spin her web around me anymore.  I'm the one in control of my life now- not her.  When you begin to feel control ( it begins with NC) then you too will feel less affected by her and less and less guilty and less obligated to serve her needs at your own expense.  You will become more powerful as you bloom and begin to live the life that you were meant to live. 

You are worth every effort you can make to create a safe, happy and loving life for yourself today.  Don't allow anyone to degrade your worth and quality of life in any way.  You said that you can imagine what it would be like to live without guilt... .well, if you can imagine it, then that means it is within your reach.  Grab it and run.   

[pessim-optimist]

As ridiculous as it sounds, I feel awful when I hang up the phone. It feels like I reinforce her hateful comments about me being selfish and horrible. Then I end up just listening to her hateful diatribe until I say, "Mom I have to go." I end up feeling guilty and a sadomasochist.

I know... .that's how it's all set up: to keep you in and pull you back in when you start pulling away.

She is completely different from my SO. Both have a victim mentality, but she can truly affect me more.

 

Of course, Eagles - she is the one who majorly shaped your identity, and her current behaviors keep reinforcing the unhealthy feelings and the kind of self-image you are trying to shed in therapy.

In some ways, to me, it's like getting medical treatment for ingesting poison, and then getting poisoned all over again. That way, the progress in healing would go real slow, and depending on the amount of poison and the amount of treatment, it may not even work at all - does that make sense?

I like what Leaving says about separating from our disordered parent. How about bringing that topic up in therapy?

For some, temporary NC, or therapeutic separation is the best solution, because they cannot truly and fully separate otherwise. It worked really well for me also.

I thought of myself as fairly independent and healthy, as I internally distanced myself and protected myself from my FOO from an early age. But even at that, I found out that I was influenced by them way more than I thought, and the period of separation allowed me to discover my true identity w/out the constant interference and oppressive influence of my parents, not to even speak of the constant stress of managing the r/s and fending off their intrusions - that consumed a lot of energy I could not put into living my life before and into actually fully individuating.

I was NC for 3.5 years and re-connected with them about ten years ago. Since then, I have kept much stronger boundaries and our r/s is much more shallow. However, it is much more healthy and definitely much safer. Even so, every now and then I find myself slipping a bit into the old patterns, but quickly catch myself and backpedal into safe waters. For me, the period of NC was a life-saver. I would not have been able to find my balance otherwise and would still live in a semi-entangled way with my parents and would probably never really discover the freedom and peace that life offers.

I also like what Leaving says about forgiveness. If we forgive w/out the other person acknowledging the wrong they have done, we invalidate ourselves (by forgiveness, we cooperate in injustice being done to us - even if it's only done in our own mind). I can unilaterally forgive small infractions due to minor imperfections of another person's character. That's what I believe means being gracious. But when it comes to serious violations, it becomes another matter completely. I read it in all kinds of psychology books that we need to forgive and that if we don't we become stuck. I think there is a difference between forgiveness and letting go. Letting go of the past hurts and leaving them behind and healing from them is what frees me. I can do that.

Forgiveness for me involves the other person, and w/out their acknowledgement of wrongdoing, there is no benefit in forgiving - it becomes empty at best and dangerous at worst... .

I believe in you Eagles, you are on your way of building up that inner strength and repairing the damage that was done to you. Be kind to yourself, and be bold in claiming and protecting what is rightfully yours. You are precious, and you are worth it. 

[Leaving]

Eagles, I hope you're doing alright today.  Did you have a good weekend?


Well said Pessim-Opt:

"I thought of myself as fairly independent and healthy, as I internally distanced myself and protected myself from my FOO from an early age. But even at that, I found out that I was influenced by them way more than I thought, and the period of separation allowed me to discover my true identity w/out the constant interference and oppressive influence of my parents, not to even speak of the constant stress of managing the r/s and fending off their intrusions - that consumed a lot of energy I could not put into living my life before and into actually fully individuating."


I too thought of myself as somewhat independent of my family at an early age but I now know that was all part of my mother's conditioning as well- too keep me from forming any alliance with my stepfather or brother.  She would always say, ' You're like me, aloof and independent'.   There isn't a day that goes by that I don't realize how something I was taught by my mother was cloaked in poison.  Granted, there were some good things she taught me but I'm now realizing that she taught me those things because she was manipulating me to do the good and decent things that she was incapable of being and in her own twisted mind, taking credit.   Likewise, she modeled the opposite of those good things which left me very confused and anxious for much of my life.

My last NC lasted about 4 years and although I initially feared getting involved with her again a few months ago, I'm glad that I did because it gave me the opportunity to measure just how healthy I had become and just how sick she is.  All the pieces of my puzzled relationship with her fell into place and I felt very detached from her- almost like an observer.   Every time I talk to her, I discover another thing that I have nothing in common with.  Yet, as a young girl and young adult, I told everyone, including my therapists, that she was my best friend.  In truth, she was my enemy.

I don't get angry when I have those revelations about my upbringing.  Instead I feel excitement like when solving a difficult mystery or finally seeing the shoreline after a long and difficult journey on rough water.  It's very empowering.

I wanted to just add my thoughts on NC.  It's very scary and difficult to take that leap of faith for ourselves.  In my case it was sort of done for me by my mother when she hung up on me during a conversation one day.  This was typical for her and it was typical for my brother and I to run back to her apologizing ( for what, we never knew)  but that time I didn't.  I was fed up and disgusted with her.  She hung up and I and I instantly felt relief and freedom instead of anger and guilt.  That was back in 1990 I think.  My reaction surprised me.  I didn't talk to her for 3 or 4 years.  The first year was the worst during holidays and special occasions but I got through. Family habits, good or bad, get broken and it's tough.  I went through a lot during those 4 years.  It was like all those puzzle pieces were dumped into a spinning centrifuge.  I felt so confused and hopeless at times but desperate for resolution and happiness.  I bought every self help book there was, went to therapy when I could afford to.  I had a good friend who offered support. 

I think it's absolutely necessary to have a therapist to help with this transition.  A therapist who specializes in NPD and BPD is necessary in my opinion.  I only say that because I've had experience with less experienced or inexperienced T's that caused a train wreck in my progress. 

[EaglesJuju]

Hi Leaving,

I have a pretty rough weekend filled with guilt. It started with my SO and I having an argument on Friday afternoon. The guilt spiraled out of control from here.

I went to my grandmother's early in the day. I still feeling pretty crappy from the argument with the SO. We started watching a movie on the Hallmark channel. The movie had a scene where a dog needed to be euthanized. I started weeping uncontrollably.

My grandmother started talking to me and through all my tears, I started talking about my mother. Everything came out like word vomit. I told my grandmother about the horrible things my mother has said to me lately. My grandmother told me to hang up the phone and ignore her when she talks to me like that.

After I left I called my mother yesterday, to wish her a Happy Mother's Day. The first thing my mother said was that I need to get rid of all my dog's toys and bed. I told her I was not ready to do so. She made a point of saying that is the first thing that people do when someone dies. Again, I started crying. Somewhere, I just wanted for her to say, "EaglesJuju it is going to be okay. I am sorry for your loss." I should have hung up the phone, but I felt so vulnerable and alone and just needed someone to be there for me, even if it was her with all her martyr syndrome.

For a half hour she went on about how she had to go out to dinner on Saturday alone. Then it was about her demanding apologies from everyone in her life, because we are the reasons she is this way.

I do see a psychologist. My psychologist has worked with many NPD and BPD individuals and has a good background in personality disorders. The caveat for working with me is my own suffering from DPD. It is a multitude of issues that are interconnected.

I do know all this guilt that I have is toxic. I do sabotage myself from all the guilt and shame that I feel.  My mother has done considerable damage to me, but I do worse to myself from all the guilt.

[stepper123]

Hi Eagles,

I can relate to a lot of what you describe in terms of your mother's interactions with you. I'm sorry you've had to go through those ups and downs like I have. I have somewhat limited contact with my uBPD mom, and that has happened slowly over years of me putting up boundaries. It was very hard at first. When I was in college, much like your mother, mine would call me incessantly. Once I didn't answer the phone for 2 hours, and during that time I had 25 missed calls - she subsequently called campus security and told them I was missing, and they wandered campus asking my classmates if they had seen me. When I called her back she called me selfish and worthless and that I don't think about anybody else but myself. The world of a BPD individual is a very confusing one for those of us looking in.

You may always feel FOG around your mother, as I do mine. But the best thing you can do is put up very strict boundaries. With people who have disorganized thinking, having someone who is consistent, even if the "rules" you enforce upset the BPD individual, can be helpful not just to the person's disease, but also to enforce stability in your own life. If you tell her not to call after a certain time, don't answer the phone after that time. Ever. If you say you don't have time to talk to her more than once a day, don't answer the phone more than once. Be consistent. It is hard at first, and you will meet resistance, but eventually most people stop freaking out when they realize they won't get the response that they want. All of us with BPD family members need to learn how to regain control of our lives, which can be hard when there is so much chaos going on that we don't know where to step without making a mistake.

It's not your fault your mom is sick. It's not your fault she doesn't understand your world, or the world everyone else lives in. It's not your fault that she is so confused about the world she lives in that she chases away the only people she cares about in the world and doesn't even realize it. I know the terrible feeling you have when you hang up the phone - I had that feeling for a long time every time I would say, "I'm sorry you feel that way, I'm sorry you are unable to understand that my intention is not to be hurtful. I love you. I have to go now, goodbye." But if you are consistent, eventually she will understand she can't break you like she has in the past. All you can do is work to be happy and to build a good life for yourself. Fight for that. If she can't be a part of your life in a positive way, then set up boundaries so that she can be a part of your life in the limited way you see fit so that it doesn't disrupt your existence.

[Leaving]

Hi Leaving,

I have a pretty rough weekend filled with guilt. It started with my SO and I having an argument on Friday afternoon. The guilt spiraled out of control from here.

I went to my grandmother's early in the day. I still feeling pretty crappy from the argument with the SO. We started watching a movie on the Hallmark channel. The movie had a scene where a dog needed to be euthanized. I started weeping uncontrollably.

My grandmother started talking to me and through all my tears, I started talking about my mother. Everything came out like word vomit. I told my grandmother about the horrible things my mother has said to me lately. My grandmother told me to hang up the phone and ignore her when she talks to me like that.

After I left I called my mother yesterday, to wish her a Happy Mother's Day. The first thing my mother said was that I need to get rid of all my dog's toys and bed. I told her I was not ready to do so. She made a point of saying that is the first thing that people do when someone dies. Again, I started crying. Somewhere, I just wanted for her to say, "EaglesJuju it is going to be okay. I am sorry for your loss." I should have hung up the phone, but I felt so vulnerable and alone and just needed someone to be there for me, even if it was her with all her martyr syndrome.

For a half hour she went on about how she had to go out to dinner on Saturday alone. Then it was about her demanding apologies from everyone in her life, because we are the reasons she is this way.

I do see a psychologist. My psychologist has worked with many NPD and BPD individuals and has a good background in personality disorders. The caveat for working with me is my own suffering from DPD. It is a multitude of issues that are interconnected.

I do know all this guilt that I have is toxic. I do sabotage myself from all the guilt and shame that I feel.  My mother has done considerable damage to me, but I do worse to myself from all the guilt.

Eagles,

I hope you can find some way to create some peace and happiness in your day today after such a trying weekend. I hate mother's day- it's so stressful.

I'm so sorry, heartbroken actually, about your dog and that you had to make such a courageous decision to let her go.  I had to euthanize both of my dogs a month a part last year and I'm still not over it.  Talk about guilt... .even though I know I did the right thing, I always feel like I may have missed something and jumped too quickly to end their suffering.  It's never easy.  There's one thing you can learn about yourself from that experience and that is, that you are not a selfish woman who enjoys others suffering.  You are strong and courageous and willing to do the right thing even when it would be easier to choose otherwise.  I still have my dogs' things in my office all around me and I talk to them all the time. You keep your dog's things around you as long as you like.  When you're ready to remove them, if ever, then you will. 

Your grandmother's advice sounds like a good plan to begin your work on self respect.  You should hang up on anyone who is talking to you the way your mother does.  Her words are full of hatred not love.   From now on, hang up on her until she can speak to you with respect.  You have my blessing 

You're such an amazing woman.  Really.  I can't imagine having to endure such constant hateful abuse from a mother and still being able to reach out and write and share your feelings so openly as you do.  There must be a magnificent reserve of love and desire to heal within you.  I hope you will focus on your wonderful gifts and not allow anyone to distract you from nurturing them.

I really believe that if you could just create some time and space for yourself away from your mother, you might be surprised to reap a lot of wisdom about your dependency issues and may even discover that your not defective as you may think. I think many of us could be labeled as having DPD given how we were so desperate as children to receive love. We were taught from the beginning that we were defective and had to work hard all the time to earn anything kind and loving which sets us up for seeking broken people who never have anything to give back.  It's a never ending cycle of self abuse.  I'm just now discovering that I'm actually a relatively intelligent woman despite being treated like an idiot all my life.  In truth I wasn't born screwed up... .I was made to believe that I was defective by my mother.  When I was a little girl, I used to think I was retarded.  I don't think there's anything that I've suffered or struggled with that wasn't hinged to my mother's abuse.   Guilt is a normal reaction when we have a conscience and believe that we've hurt someone.   But, your mother wants you to believe that you are to blame for all your emotional discomfort but you're not to blame.  If you were with other loving people, you would not feel so consumed with guilt because if you accidentally hurt someone, you would immediately rectify the mistake and life would go on.  That's normal.  But, your mother wants you to hold on to the belief that you're responsible for your own misery and hers and as long as you respond with guilt, she's succeeding in her mission. What have you ever done to hurt anyone that deserves that kind of treatment?    It's a lie that she created to justify treating you as she does.  Your guilt serves to relieve her of her own guilt.  She's to blame, not you. 

Today try letting go of any thought that you are imperfect and imagine yourself as the divine and perfect woman that G-d created. Close your eyes and relax and imagine that perfect beautiful little girl. Try to keep that image of yourself about you and not focus on what you believe are shortcomings.   

[EaglesJuju]

I hope you can find some way to create some peace and happiness in your day today after such a trying weekend. I hate mother's day- it's so stressful.

Thank you. 

My day did get a little better. My mother called me 4 times and left messages. Usually her messages are about mundane things or my older brother. After not responding to her 4 phone calls, she thought she would call me at 11 pm. I did pick up the phone. She started asking about my older brother and his family. I cut her off and firmly told her that it was late and inappropriate to call at this time and if she wants to know about my brother she should call him. Then I told her goodbye and hung up the phone.

I'm so sorry, heartbroken actually, about your dog and that you had to make such a courageous decision to let her go.  I had to euthanize both of my dogs a month a part last year and I'm still not over it.  Talk about guilt... .even though I know I did the right thing, I always feel like I may have missed something and jumped too quickly to end their suffering.  It's never easy.  There's one thing you can learn about yourself from that experience and that is, that you are not a selfish woman who enjoys others suffering.  You are strong and courageous and willing to do the right thing even when it would be easier to choose otherwise.  I still have my dogs' things in my office all around me and I talk to them all the time. You keep your dog's things around you as long as you like.  When you're ready to remove them, if ever, then you will. 

Thank you for this. I have been feeling really guilty with the decision that I knew was the right thing to do. It was by far one of the toughest decisions that I had to make in my life.

My mother has made the situation with my dog worse. Sometimes I think that she enjoys making me feel guilty about the dog. I have seen her almost get pleasure from my sorrow. When she is like this it just stirs up my deep seeded resentment for her. 

You're such an amazing woman.  Really.  I can't imagine having to endure such constant hateful abuse from a mother and still being able to reach out and write and share your feelings so openly as you do.  There must be a magnificent reserve of love and desire to heal within you.  I hope you will focus on your wonderful gifts and not allow anyone to distract you from nurturing them.

Thank you.    It is hard for me to hear positive things about myself at times. My mother can say positive things on occasion, but there is always a catch to it. Therapy has helped me to express my feelings. 

I really believe that if you could just create some time and space for yourself away from your mother, you might be surprised to reap a lot of wisdom about your dependency issues and may even discover that your not defective as you may think. I think many of us could be labeled as having DPD given how we were so desperate as children to receive love. We were taught from the beginning that we were defective and had to work hard all the time to earn anything kind and loving which sets us up for seeking broken people who never have anything to give back.  It's a never ending cycle of self abuse. 

I have learned about the origin of my DPD/codependency. I can shift from being completely dependent on someone to being a fixer/helper.

Underneath all my maladaptive behavior, there are positive attributes. I think that many dependents/codependents are empathetic, understanding, supportive, loving, kind, and giving. Those are fantastic qualities for anyone to have.

It is a never ending cycle of self abuse.

I'm just now discovering that I'm actually a relatively intelligent woman despite being treated like an idiot all my life.  In truth I wasn't born screwed up... .I was made to believe that I was defective by my mother.  When I was a little girl, I used to think I was retarded.  I don't think there's anything that I've suffered or struggled with that wasn't hinged to my mother's abuse.   Guilt is a normal reaction when we have a conscience and believe that we've hurt someone.   But, your mother wants you to believe that you are to blame for all your emotional discomfort but you're not to blame. 

The blame does not stop with my mother. My father has blamed me for things that were not my fault. My father has many narcissistic traits.

My father has flat out told me that things that happened with my mother and him were because of me.  Rationally, I know that I did not cause their divorce when I was younger, but my father still blames me.

I have gone NC with my father for a couple of years. As much as my mother is toxic for me, I always had more empathy towards her.

My father is a cold man. I spent the majority of my childhood/teenage years being completely ignored by him. To this day, he could not tell you how old I am or when my birthday is. You could walk in their house and you would never know that he has a daughter. There are no pictures or anything in there that would suggest that I exist.

[Leaving]

I hope you can find some way to create some peace and happiness in your day today after such a trying weekend. I hate mother's day- it's so stressful.

Thank you. 

My day did get a little better. My mother called me 4 times and left messages. Usually her messages are about mundane things or my older brother. After not responding to her 4 phone calls, she thought she would call me at 11 pm. I did pick up the phone. She started asking about my older brother and his family. I cut her off and firmly told her that it was late and inappropriate to call at this time and if she wants to know about my brother she should call him. Then I told her goodbye and hung up the phone.

I'm so sorry, heartbroken actually, about your dog and that you had to make such a courageous decision to let her go.  I had to euthanize both of my dogs a month a part last year and I'm still not over it.  Talk about guilt... .even though I know I did the right thing, I always feel like I may have missed something and jumped too quickly to end their suffering.  It's never easy.  There's one thing you can learn about yourself from that experience and that is, that you are not a selfish woman who enjoys others suffering.  You are strong and courageous and willing to do the right thing even when it would be easier to choose otherwise.  I still have my dogs' things in my office all around me and I talk to them all the time. You keep your dog's things around you as long as you like.  When you're ready to remove them, if ever, then you will. 

Thank you for this. I have been feeling really guilty with the decision that I knew was the right thing to do. It was by far one of the toughest decisions that I had to make in my life.

My mother has made the situation with my dog worse. Sometimes I think that she enjoys making me feel guilty about the dog. I have seen her almost get pleasure from my sorrow. When she is like this it just stirs up my deep seeded resentment for her. 

You're such an amazing woman.  Really.  I can't imagine having to endure such constant hateful abuse from a mother and still being able to reach out and write and share your feelings so openly as you do.  There must be a magnificent reserve of love and desire to heal within you.  I hope you will focus on your wonderful gifts and not allow anyone to distract you from nurturing them.

Thank you.    It is hard for me to hear positive things about myself at times. My mother can say positive things on occasion, but there is always a catch to it. Therapy has helped me to express my feelings. 

I really believe that if you could just create some time and space for yourself away from your mother, you might be surprised to reap a lot of wisdom about your dependency issues and may even discover that your not defective as you may think. I think many of us could be labeled as having DPD given how we were so desperate as children to receive love. We were taught from the beginning that we were defective and had to work hard all the time to earn anything kind and loving which sets us up for seeking broken people who never have anything to give back.  It's a never ending cycle of self abuse. 

I have learned about the origin of my DPD/codependency. I can shift from being completely dependent on someone to being a fixer/helper.

Underneath all my maladaptive behavior, there are positive attributes. I think that many dependents/codependents are empathetic, understanding, supportive, loving, kind, and giving. Those are fantastic qualities for anyone to have.

It is a never ending cycle of self abuse.

I'm just now discovering that I'm actually a relatively intelligent woman despite being treated like an idiot all my life.  In truth I wasn't born screwed up... .I was made to believe that I was defective by my mother.  When I was a little girl, I used to think I was retarded.  I don't think there's anything that I've suffered or struggled with that wasn't hinged to my mother's abuse.   Guilt is a normal reaction when we have a conscience and believe that we've hurt someone.   But, your mother wants you to believe that you are to blame for all your emotional discomfort but you're not to blame. 

The blame does not stop with my mother. My father has blamed me for things that were not my fault. My father has many narcissistic traits.

My father has flat out told me that things that happened with my mother and him were because of me.  Rationally, I know that I did not cause their divorce when I was younger, but my father still blames me.

I have gone NC with my father for a couple of years. As much as my mother is toxic for me, I always had more empathy towards her.

My father is a cold man. I spent the majority of my childhood/teenage years being completely ignored by him. To this day, he could not tell you how old I am or when my birthday is. You could walk in their house and you would never know that he has a daughter. There are no pictures or anything in there that would suggest that I exist.

I'm so sorry Eagles.  You got dealt a really bad hand when it comes to parents. It's not uncommon for N or BPD parents to marry each other but my gosh, where is the attraction?  Where is the love?  Everyone just passes the buck/blame to you. Shame on them.  How truly pathetic.  Of course your parents had issues related to you because they were your parents. But, they pegged you as the scapegoat for their own problems in order to avoid their own accountability for your welfare. I'm not surprised that you have more empathy for your mother because I think it's natural for children to feel that way but also, your mother manipulated you to feel that for her.  My mother did the same thing and even though I loved my dad and he was the kind and thoughtful man, I chose to stay with her.  She always painted herself as the good parent but she also painted herself as a helpless victim and so my brother and I always felt sorry for her.  My mother was very violent with my father and I would get upset and ultimately intervene and stop the fighting.  I finally asked my father to leave because that's what my mother encouraged me to do.   I began having trouble in school, trouble with anxiety, trouble concentrating, etc... .  My mother would  get angry at me when I would get depressed and was struggling in school and tell me that I was a very selfish person to allow her problems to interfere with my life.  You and I are not the selfish cowards- they are.  They inflict pain and suffering but are too spineless and cowardly to take responsibility and choose to blame others like their daughters.  If you had not been around, they would have found some other scapegoat. 

I didn't have a father living with me for most of my childhood.  My bio father left for good after marrying my mother twice.  Each time he was only with us for a couple of years.  I think it's worse to have a bad father around than to not have a father at all.  However, it makes a big difference when a child has at least one well-adjusted parent.  While I don't think my father's leaving affected me as bad as my mother's upbringing, I know that as a female, not having a father's love and support contributed greatly to my low self esteem and lack of confidence and direction in life.

My stepfather lived with me for only 3 years before he divorced my mother and he was a G-d send.  He knew my mother was nuts and he encouraged me and supported my choice for NC.  He was sorry that it came down to that but it was necessary.  He knew she was dangerous and harmful to me.  I loved him dearly but he died from MS and so, I don't have him anymore.

Wow, you handled that call from your mother like a very healthy woman!  That's remarkable!  Cheers to you!  Could you turn off the ringer to your phone at those times when  are no longer accepting calls?  The phone call from her asking about your brother... .Yep, I got those too but I don't talk to my brother anymore so those calls stopped. My mother is passive aggressive and plays games all the time.  Everything she does is a manipulation with some hidden agenda.  BTW, our mother never refers to my brother and I by our names.  She refers to us as the name of the city we live in so she'll ask, ' Have you heard from Jonestown lately'... .( jonestown... .hahahah... .I just made that up... .do you suppose it's a Freudian slip?) 

Is your brother treated differently than you?  My brother is mother's golden child although I've seen her quickly turn on him and heard her speak horribly about him to me in an effort to gain my attention and admiration.  Mother always aligned herself with our spouses against us as well.  My current husband is very abusive and she makes excuses for him and tells me it's my fault that he treats me so badly.  He killed one of my dogs and my mom just says, ' I don't want to hear about it, just let it go, don't dwell on it".  She's truly cruel and evil.

Have you ever read the book, ' People of the Lie" ?  I have a very serious spider phobia and I discovered that the spider is my mother by reading a chapter in that book.  It's interesting that after 3 years of NC with my mother, my phobia improved greatly and I had very little reaction to spiders.  After contacting her again, my phobia is right back to pathological levels.  Therapy never helped.  I have the phobia so bad that if I see a spider, I can't eat for two days and am afraid to walk outside.  Years ago a hypnotherapist tried to help me unlock some repressed memories and all I could see during the sessions was a spider.  I couldn't get past that image at all. 

I had a really enlightening and validating experience this past winter when my mother asked me to contact one her aunts about some genealogy I was working on.  At some point during our conversations, I commented that my mother wasn't very kind to me.  My aunt began telling me all sorts of things about how my mother was as a child and it stunned me that everyone knew how she was and yet they all covered it up and neglected to show special concern for us, her children.  I get really angry when adults turn their backs on helpless children.    Anyway, my aunt also told me that my brother wasn't talking to mother as well.  As it turned out, my brother had 'made up' with mom at some point and so they are talking now- probably just because he has two daughters. Plus, I'm sure he also felt he needed mom because he's been going through a tough time with divorce and he has custody of his kids and is raising them alone.  I don't have any children so I don't feel any obligation to stay connected in that respect thank goodness but I think if I had children, I would feel more inclined to keep them away from her. 

I wanted to tell you... .after one of my NC periods around 2001, I quit using my first name as part of reinforcing my independence.  I now go by my middle name.  It may sound silly and superficial to some folks but it made a HUGE difference in helping me create my own image/self and to feel separate from my mother.   

[EaglesJuju]

You got dealt a really bad hand when it comes to parents. It's not uncommon for N or BPD parents to marry each other but my gosh, where is the attraction?  Where is the love? 

I don't understand the dynamics of a BPD and NPD relationship myself.

I can completely relate and understand your childhood. 

Everyone just passes the buck/blame to you. Shame on them.  How truly pathetic.  Of course your parents had issues related to you because they were your parents. But, they pegged you as the scapegoat for their own problems in order to avoid their own accountability for your welfare. I'm   You and I are not the selfish cowards- they are.  They inflict pain and suffering but are too spineless and cowardly to take responsibility and choose to blame others like their daughters.  If you had not been around, they would have found some other scapegoat. 

Yes, one of my familial roles is the scapegoat. My brother admits that he is narcissistic, so he would never accept this role.

It is really sad that they blame me for their problems. I am slowly learning not accept responsibility for things that I did not do or am the cause of. 

  BTW, our mother never refers to my brother and I by our names.  She refers to us as the name of the city we live in so she'll ask, ' Have you heard from Jonestown lately'... .( jonestown... .hahahah... .I just made that up... .do you suppose it's a Freudian slip?) 

It is a form of devaluation. It is like she is depersonalizing you. My father referred to me as "girl" quite often. It makes you feel like a nameless face, like nothing.

Is your brother treated differently than you? 

My older brother is the golden child in my mother's eyes. She lives and breathes for him, while he does not reciprocate anything to her. In fact, he did not call her on mother's day.

Have you ever read the book, ' People of the Lie" ?  I have a very serious spider phobia and I discovered that the spider is my mother by reading a chapter in that book. 

I never read the book. Do you think your arachnophobia is a result of your parents or upbringing?

The reason why I ask is that I have ornithophobia (fear of birds) that stems from my mother. My mother used to show me the movie, The Birds when I "misbehaved." She said, that birds were going to attack me, claw out my eyes, and kill me if I did not stop making her upset. To further reinforce her punishment, my mother bought decorative birds, including a vulture, that looked realistic and placed them all over the house. She went so far to place one of the birds on my headboard on my bed so it would "watch" over me while I slept.

I am truly sorry for all you have endured. I am glad that you found a way to create your own positive self-image through changing your first name. That is very empowering.

[Leaving]

You got dealt a really bad hand when it comes to parents. It's not uncommon for N or BPD parents to marry each other but my gosh, where is the attraction?  Where is the love? 

I don't understand the dynamics of a BPD and NPD relationship myself.

I can completely relate and understand your childhood. 

Everyone just passes the buck/blame to you. Shame on them.  How truly pathetic.  Of course your parents had issues related to you because they were your parents. But, they pegged you as the scapegoat for their own problems in order to avoid their own accountability for your welfare. I'm   You and I are not the selfish cowards- they are.  They inflict pain and suffering but are too spineless and cowardly to take responsibility and choose to blame others like their daughters.  If you had not been around, they would have found some other scapegoat. 

Yes, one of my familial roles is the scapegoat. My brother admits that he is narcissistic, so he would never accept this role.

It is really sad that they blame me for their problems. I am slowly learning not accept responsibility for things that I did not do or am the cause of. 

  BTW, our mother never refers to my brother and I by our names.  She refers to us as the name of the city we live in so she'll ask, ' Have you heard from Jonestown lately'... .( jonestown... .hahahah... .I just made that up... .do you suppose it's a Freudian slip?) 

It is a form of devaluation. It is like she is depersonalizing you. My father referred to me as "girl" quite often. It makes you feel like a nameless face, like nothing.

Is your brother treated differently than you? 

My older brother is the golden child in my mother's eyes. She lives and breathes for him, while he does not reciprocate anything to her. In fact, he did not call her on mother's day.

Have you ever read the book, ' People of the Lie" ?  I have a very serious spider phobia and I discovered that the spider is my mother by reading a chapter in that book. 

I never read the book. Do you think your arachnophobia is a result of your parents or upbringing?

The reason why I ask is that I have ornithophobia (fear of birds) that stems from my mother. My mother used to show me the movie, The Birds when I "misbehaved." She said, that birds were going to attack me, claw out my eyes, and kill me if I did not stop making her upset. To further reinforce her punishment, my mother bought decorative birds, including a vulture, that looked realistic and placed them all over the house. She went so far to place one of the birds on my headboard on my bed so it would "watch" over me while I slept.

I am truly sorry for all you have endured. I am glad that you found a way to create your own positive self-image through changing your first name. That is very empowering.

Eagles, Very interesting about your phobia. Your mother is downright evil.  She should have been locked up for child abuse.  I hope my saying that doesn't offend you in any way but seriously, what she did I just can't excuse or justify on any level.  Just curious... .does your brother feel any empathy for your situation?  Mine doesn't care a bit about me and blames me for being a bitter victim and causing trouble in our family.   My father had the same bird phobia as you- terrified of birds-  and his mother was an overbearing narcissist who controlled him and insulted him all the time. He could bird hunt outdoors but birds inside the house freaked him out horribly. Maybe the outside birds did too but I wouldn't know for sure since I only knew him a brief time.  I know he wouldn't come into our house to pick us up for visitation if any of the birds were loose.   My father was a gentle kind man with a wonderful heart but never learned how to escape his mother's wrath.  He married my mother, a narcissist and so, that only made things worse for him. Guess what my mother did for a living?  She was a bird breeder and she had a pet store with birds.  She is obsessed with birds and she has them all over her house and they chew up everything. I'm not talking small birds.  They are large parrots.  She has this one cockatoo that she is so obsessed with and she spoils him in a neglectful way by not having boundaries with him.  She doesn't train her animals to behave but then she screams at him and her dogs all the time. Loud shrill screams that send me over the edge sometimes.   She just uses her animals to gain attention and I know that if any of them turned on her or once they become a burden, she will get rid of them or abuse them.   She has a form of Munchausen by proxy (sp?) and she will neglect to care for her animals properly. What I mean is that she will not allow proper medical treatment but she will take the animal to the vet every week, refuse to do what the doctor says and keep it alive suffering just so she can use it to get attention from the vets. It's so sick Eagles. She did the same with me as a child.  Two doctors have had her banned from their premises.  She also made me watch the movie, The Birds and raved about how it was her favorite.  WEIRD!  Her other favorite is ' Mommy Dearest'.   My golden child younger brother is the same as your brother.  He is also a bit narcissistic and he can treat our mother like poo and get away with it most of the time. He didn't go see her for mother's day and she made excuses for him.  When I was young I could never devote any time or anything for myself without her disposing of me.  She made me serve and care for my brother and if I didn't, there was hell to pay.  Usually she would ignore me for weeks or months.   She abandoned me many times throughout my life and pawned me off anyone she could when I needed anything.  My G-d mother once said that she thought it was so weird how a mother could dispose of her child without even trying to reconcile.

Yes, indeed Eagles.  I know for a fact that my spider phobia is related to my mother.  I know this from reading the book but also from therapy.  So, in my case what happened was that I displaced my fear of my mother onto something that was acceptable and socially feared and hated- spiders. This happened when I was very young. It's not normal for anyone to hate or fear their parent and children ' know' that.  So children displace their negative emotions onto something that is socially acceptable.   The thing is that when I'm NC with my mother, my phobia gets a lot better and I can function without freaking out but as soon as I made contact a few months ago, I began dreaming of spiders and my phobia is back full strength.  Yuk

Isn't it remarkable that we survived as well as we have? 

[EaglesJuju]

Your mother is downright evil.  She should have been locked up for child abuse. 

She was investigated for child abuse. For awhile, my brother and I had supervised visitations with her.

She has beaten me with a vacuum cleaner, her fists, utensils, toys, and other countless objects.

Just curious... .does your brother feel any empathy for your situation? 

My brother resents her and distances her from his life. He did not tell her where he lives. He actually will defend me if my mother is being nasty.

She has a form of Munchausen by proxy (sp?) and she will neglect to care for her animals properly. What I mean is that she will not allow proper medical treatment but she will take the animal to the vet every week, refuse to do what the doctor says and keep it alive suffering just so she can use it to get attention from the vets.

I never really heard of Munchausens with animals before.

It's so sick Eagles. She did the same with me as a child.  Two doctors have had her banned from their premises. 

What types of illnesses did she make you think you had?

She also made me watch the movie, The Birds and raved about how it was her favorite.  WEIRD!  Her other favorite is ' Mommy Dearest'.   

Maybe she can relate to Joan Crawford.  I have always said that my mother puts Joan Crawford to shame. Hell, I am jealous of those kids they had it so much better than I did.

My mother has woken me up the middle of the night to clean before like Joan Crawford. When I lived with her for a brief period of time in my late teens, she woke me up regularly to clean up because I was a "slob."  I am sure that many people can relate to the behaviors in that movie.

So, in my case what happened was that I displaced my fear of my mother onto something that was acceptable and socially feared and hated- spiders. This happened when I was very young. It's not normal for anyone to hate or fear their parent and children ' know' that.  So children displace their negative emotions onto something that is socially acceptable.   The thing is that when I'm NC with my mother, my phobia gets a lot better and I can function without freaking out but as soon as I made contact a few months ago, I began dreaming of spiders and my phobia is back full strength. 

This is interesting. I have never thought of this from that perspective.

For me it was more like I was conditioned to fear birds because of an association of negative feelings associated with it.

[Leaving]

Your mother is downright evil.  She should have been locked up for child abuse. 

She was investigated for child abuse. For awhile, my brother and I had supervised visitations with her.

She has beaten me with a vacuum cleaner, her fists, utensils, toys, and other countless objects.

Just curious... .does your brother feel any empathy for your situation? 

My brother resents her and distances her from his life. He did not tell her where he lives. He actually will defend me if my mother is being nasty.

She has a form of Munchausen by proxy (sp?) and she will neglect to care for her animals properly. What I mean is that she will not allow proper medical treatment but she will take the animal to the vet every week, refuse to do what the doctor says and keep it alive suffering just so she can use it to get attention from the vets.

I never really heard of Munchausens with animals before.

It's so sick Eagles. She did the same with me as a child.  Two doctors have had her banned from their premises. 

What types of illnesses did she make you think you had?

She also made me watch the movie, The Birds and raved about how it was her favorite.  WEIRD!  Her other favorite is ' Mommy Dearest'.   

Maybe she can relate to Joan Crawford.  I have always said that my mother puts Joan Crawford to shame. Hell, I am jealous of those kids they had it so much better than I did.

My mother has woken me up the middle of the night to clean before like Joan Crawford. When I lived with her for a brief period of time in my late teens, she woke me up regularly to clean up because I was a "slob."  I am sure that many people can relate to the behaviors in that movie.

So, in my case what happened was that I displaced my fear of my mother onto something that was acceptable and socially feared and hated- spiders. This happened when I was very young. It's not normal for anyone to hate or fear their parent and children ' know' that.  So children displace their negative emotions onto something that is socially acceptable.   The thing is that when I'm NC with my mother, my phobia gets a lot better and I can function without freaking out but as soon as I made contact a few months ago, I began dreaming of spiders and my phobia is back full strength. 

This is interesting. I have never thought of this from that perspective.

For me it was more like I was conditioned to fear birds because of an association of negative feelings associated with it.

I guess in your case, the bird phobia may be combination of both conditioning as well as displacing fear. I guess that's probably true for most of us who have phobias. 

Your mother was investigated and so why was she not institutionalized or charged?  Is this in the US?  There's a woman across the st. from me who is like your mother and she too has been investigated and yet she has custody of her two boys and I don't get this at all. I've called the police twice about her.  It makes me sick!  I'm so sorry you had to go through that physical abuse.  It's terrifying to see a parent become so violent and it's even worse because the violence was directed at you.   I didn't have to deal with that like you did.  My mother was very violent but mostly toward my dad.  When she was mad a me, she would throw things and destroy property and then retreat to her room for days and refuse to come out.  Our walls were covered in coffee and food most of the time.

Munchausens or something else?  My mother was very strange about me getting pregnant.  She told me from the time I was little that if I got pregnant I would die.  She also told my husbands the same thing ( behind my back).   I spent most of my life believing I had something wrong with my reproductive organs.  Right before I got married to no. 1, I scheduled an exploratory surgery to see if I was normal and I was.  The doctor said, 'I don't know what your mother knows or why she believes your sick but you're fine'.  It really pisses me off that I had that surgery and put my life in danger that way for no reason!  I did get pregnant once and she freaked and told me to get an abortion right away. I thought her attitude and comment was so bizarre and I didn't get one.   I had a miscarriage and she then turned into the victim - the poor dear grandmother who lost her grandchild.  there was not one ounce of concern for me- just HER LOSS and she didn't even come to the hospital.  Anytime my dogs were ill she would tell me to put them down right away and yet she keeps one of her dogs alive who is suffering horribly and makes light of it... .' oh he's happy and fine'. 

  If I was truly ill with anything like the flu or scarlet fever or chicken pox, she would ignore me and neglect me but when I pierced my ears she called an ambulance and had them take me to the hospital.  Everything with her was disproportional to reality.  My mother is also a hypochondriac and I found out from my brother that she told him she was dying while he was in college and he said that he was so stressed out and worried and couldn't understand why I wasn't upset and helping her. Well, because I didn't know!  She tells her doctors and vets that she or her dogs have a certain disease but when the doctors tell her that there's nothing wrong or that there is a different problem, she completely dismisses them and the real problem, wastes money on medical costs and medication that she never takes or gives her animals and gets people to run errands for her, buy her medicines, etc... . 

My mother is not a tidy person and she thinks it's cute. She stole my inheritance and my grandmother's china that was left to me.  She feeds her animals from it and leaves it scattered about her yard.  She lives in filth and chaos and laughs about it. I wouldn't say she's a hoarder but she obsesses on certain things at certain times and she buys them in excess.  For example, instead of buying one nice television, she bought ten tiny ones and had them all set out on her kitchen counter to watch different soaps during the day and she would always whine to her friends that she was so poor that she couldn't afford a real tv like everyone else.  She also refuses to carry a purse and instead carries her wallet and things in a plastic grocery bag and whines that she's too poor to buy a real purse.  She has never owned a coat and refuses to wear one when it's freezing outside. When my grandmother bought her a coat one year she blew up in a rage and ruined everyone's Christmas.  She took it all out on me and blamed me for the uproar. 

Well anyway, I could go on and on about her lunacy.  I find it so hard to believe that I lived with this woman, believed she was so intelligent and my best friend and thought all her behaviors were just quirky.  It scares me to think of myself as a child under her ' care'. 

You're fortunate to have a brother who will defend you and it's good that he got away but I'm sure it's hard for you to feel so alone and disconnected from him.   I don't think my brother has a clue how sick our mother is. 

I'm really glad that you have a good therapist and that you've shared what you have with me.  As depressing as all this is, it helps me keep things in perspective so I don't get sucked back into my mother's web.  I'm terrified of losing my ground.  I wish so much I could get away from my husband so that I could just move on with my life and leave both of them behind. 

[EaglesJuju]

Your mother was investigated and so why was she not institutionalized or charged?  Is this in the US? 

I do not think that my mother was ever charged with anything. She was institutionalized for a long period of time though. 

My father was granted custody of my brother and I and moved us half way across the country for 6 years. My mother was very upset by my father's decision to move so far away. Those 6 years of being apart was the closest thing I had to normalcy.

Granted my father and stepmother were both cold and selfish, I did not have to endure physical abuse.  At my stepmother's request, my father moved us back when I was 16. For my mother, it was like time was frozen. I still was 10 years old in her eyes.

To this day, my mother still treats me as a child. When I got accepted to one of the best graduate programs in the country for my area of expertise, she told me that the university made a mistake because I am immature and not smart enough to be in the program.

My mother does live vicariously through me. Every time she criticizes me or tells me what to do, it is something that she wanted for her life and could not achieve.  During those times, I can feel empathetic.


 

[Leaving]

Your mother was investigated and so why was she not institutionalized or charged?  Is this in the US? 

I do not think that my mother was ever charged with anything. She was institutionalized for a long period of time though. 

My father was granted custody of my brother and I and moved us half way across the country for 6 years. My mother was very upset by my father's decision to move so far away. Those 6 years of being apart was the closest thing I had to normalcy.

Granted my father and stepmother were both cold and selfish, I did not have to endure physical abuse.  At my stepmother's request, my father moved us back when I was 16. For my mother, it was like time was frozen. I still was 10 years old in her eyes.

To this day, my mother still treats me as a child. When I got accepted to one of the best graduate programs in the country for my area of expertise, she told me that the university made a mistake because I am immature and not smart enough to be in the program.

My mother does live vicariously through me. Every time she criticizes me or tells me what to do, it is something that she wanted for her life and could not achieve.  During those times, I can feel empathetic.


 

Yikes. Your mother doesn't hold back does she?  My gosh, it's like she's armed and ready to shoot you down in any moment. Does she 'hear' herself at all?   I suppose she was abused as a child? 

  I've heard similar criticisms from my mother anytime I achieved anything- though not as direct as your mother.   I spent so much of my life feeling like a fraud because if I got accepted into something, won a prize or award or whatever, I felt like I had misled people- giving them the wrong impression of me or that they felt sorry for me or that I just got lucky.  I don't think my mother wanted anything good or better for me.   She was determined to keep me down and inferior to her.  She was very jealous of me and I always felt very afraid of hurting her feelings by being more successful or more attractive or having more money.  I think my brother also fears hurting her or making her jealous because he would keep promotions a secret and other things.

How did you feel when you were accepted to grad school?  How did you manage to stay focused get through with all her drama interference?  I don't think I could have done that.  I could now but not before. 

I don't feel empathy toward my mother anymore.  Now that I think about it, I don't think it was ever empathy that I felt for her.  Maybe I'm wrong.  I'll have to give that some thought.  I think I had sympathy for her because I attended to many of her pity parties and saw her as a victim.  I don't see that anymore.  I see clearly how everyone in her life was her victim. 

Did you ever feel angry at your father for leaving you with her?  When I was 30 I called my father one morning.  I hadn't seen him or talked to him since I was 18 and even that was just a brief encounter after ten years of separation.  I asked him to come see me and he did and one of the first things I asked him was why he left me with mom.  I told him how awful it was and how crazy she is.  He just said, ' Your mother always loved you'.  " Really dad?  Is that what you consider to be love? No wonder my life is in the toilet." 

My husband is my mother's twin. My brother's ex wife was her twin as well.  It was my mother who loved my husband and wanted me to marry him.  I didn't want to marry him and when I told her that, she raged at me and called me every nasty thing you can imagine and told me to be more like Jenny on Forest Gump.  I felt like the most selfish horrible woman alive.  Every cloud has a silver lining and thanks to my husband and all his abuse,  I was able to see my mother and her abuse from a different angle and catapulted into a catharsis.  All the pieces of my life began to take shape and form a very clear disturbing picture.  One day last summer... .July 4, something inside of me woke up and I suddenly felt alive and ready to defend myself.  I felt completely disgusted with both of them and I detached. I wanted nothing to do with either one of them.  I didn't care anything for them or about them.   I don't know why it happened on that day or what caused me to wake up so suddenly. I just felt alive and I felt resolve rise in me like a volcanic eruption.

[EaglesJuju]

Yikes. Your mother doesn't hold back does she?  My gosh, it's like she's armed and ready to shoot you down in any moment. Does she 'hear' herself at all?   I suppose she was abused as a child? 

No she does not hold back. She left me a voicemail earlier asking about the remains of my dog and what I am doing with them. She went into great detail about how disgusting it is to have the remains of my dog in an urn in my house.

I called her back and firmly told her that it was invalidating and insensitive to leave me triggering voicemails. Also, I said I will not be speaking to her for awhile, because I cannot handle her selfish and inconsiderate behavior. 

She claims she was abused as a child, but I really do not know. She thinks everyone abuses her, so it is probably hyperbole.

How did you feel when you were accepted to grad school?  How did you manage to stay focused get through with all her drama interference? 

I felt proud and that my hard work paid off. When I am focused with school, I tend to shut her off more. Part of her understands that I am busy, but when she is dysregulating or having a manic moment, that understanding wanes. 

Did you ever feel angry at your father for leaving you with her? 

Even as a young child, I was happy that he left her. The only time I felt anger towards him is when he left my mother to be with a younger woman. During that summer, he left my brother and myself with my mother, who abused us relentlessly. My mother did not get out of bed for 3 months, leaving my brother and I to fend for ourselves.

[Leaving]

Yikes. Your mother doesn't hold back does she?  My gosh, it's like she's armed and ready to shoot you down in any moment. Does she 'hear' herself at all?   I suppose she was abused as a child? 

No she does not hold back. She left me a voicemail earlier asking about the remains of my dog and what I am doing with them. She went into great detail about how disgusting it is to have the remains of my dog in an urn in my house.

I called her back and firmly told her that it was invalidating and insensitive to leave me triggering voicemails. Also, I said I will not be speaking to her for awhile, because I cannot handle her selfish and inconsiderate behavior. 

She claims she was abused as a child, but I really do not know. She thinks everyone abuses her, so it is probably hyperbole.

How did you feel when you were accepted to grad school?  How did you manage to stay focused get through with all her drama interference? 

I felt proud and that my hard work paid off. When I am focused with school, I tend to shut her off more. Part of her understands that I am busy, but when she is dysregulating or having a manic moment, that understanding wanes. 

Did you ever feel angry at your father for leaving you with her? 

Even as a young child, I was happy that he left her. The only time I felt anger towards him is when he left my mother to be with a younger woman. During that summer, he left my brother and myself with my mother, who abused us relentlessly. My mother did not get out of bed for 3 months, leaving my brother and I to fend for ourselves.

 


GOOD FOR YOU EAGLES!  I'm so proud of you for standing up against your mother's cruelty. 

I have so many urns in my office and each one is specially hand made.  A friend who is a Quaker potter makes most of mine but when I lost my two dogs last year, I had a wooden box made by a woman on Etsy for both of my dogs so they could stay together. The box arrived just before Christmas which was my present to myself.  I also put their leashes, favorite toys and scarves in there.  I hope you will do something really special for your beloved.  I wish so much that I could have another dog but I won't bring an innocent animal back into my life until I leave my husband.  I miss having that kind of real love in my life.  There's nothing like it.

My mom also locked herself in the bedroom many times throughout my life.  Starting when I was 4 or 5, she left me to care for my baby brother.  Mom tells me that I was a very difficult child to raise and I wonder why she feels that way given how I assumed her role and relieved her of her motherly duties most of the time. 

I would be upset if my father had left us for another woman but otherwise, I was glad when they split up because it was so much more peaceful.  My stepfather had an affair but I was 17 or 18 and frankly, I didn't blame him one bit. I'm surprised he came home at all.  I just didn't like that it created more drama that I had to deal with and of course, divorce drama after that.

It's a miracle that you have the good character that you do and that you have been able to achieve great things despite all the heinous adversity in your life.  I wish that I could have insulated myself more from my mother and her attempts to defeat me.  I was so sensitive and easily affected by her. 

I'm feeling stronger now and it sounds like you are as well.  I have faith that we'll continue to make progress. 

So glad that you're willing to take time out from your mother!   Celebrate your freedom and peace of mind ( put the G-word out of your mind).   Do something special for yourself and enjoy    Wish I could take you out for a coffee.