Just Some Thoughts

[Irish Pride]

Good morning, all... .

So, I've been doing a lot of reading/research on being a co-dependant. I'm determined to fix this. During all this reading, some important points/thoughts are being raised. These may have been touched on in other threads. I'm also stating, for the record, that I have ZERO formal education in any type of psychology. These are my opinions, and observations, based off of what I've read, what I've experienced and what I've read about others experiences. I could be WAYYYY off. I'm just hoping this might help some of you in your pain.

If you think you MIGHT be co-dependant, read this

www.mentalhealthamerica.net/co-dependency

Co-dependants and BPD's are VERY similar. In fact, just about the only major differences (IMO) between the two is that a CoD is empathetic and a BPD isn't. We serve ourselves in different ways. BPD's do so without any thoughts of the ramifications their actions will cause others. Very self-serving. Whereas a CoD does nearly everything with others feelings in mind, totally disregarding themselves in the process. But still self-serving, in it's own way, and just as dysfunctional.

However, it's my opinion that I could, very easily, have been a BPD. The backgrounds for both are eerily similar (rooted in abusive childhood), the self-image of ourselves is corrupt and broken, the fears of being alone/abandonment are parallel and we both seek outside influences to make us feel better about ourselves. It's almost like we travelled down the exact same road for a long time, but at one, critical juncture, they turned left and we turned right.

Another thing I was thinking of was, the amount of times I've seen it written, how badly the non wants to contact, or even entertains thoughts of getting back together with, the xBPD. If you're a CoD, this would be nothing short of disaster. BPD's and CoD's are a nuclear device just waiting to be detonated. It's throwing rocket fuel on the fire. If you even think you might be CoD, the best thing you can do for your xBPD is to leave them be and stick with NC. CoD's just enable the BPD's in their behavior. We're not helping them, in ANY way. Quite the opposite, in fact. And, to be rather blunt, contacting, or getting back with, your xBPD serves who, exactly? Are you doing it for them, or yourself? If you're CoD, and you truly love them, walk away. Help yourself first, become whole with yourself first, then make a sound choice on your possible future with your xBPD, whatever that may be.

https://bpdfamily.com/content/codependency-codependent-relationships

www.whatiscodependency.com/loving-borderline/

I mentioned, in a previous thread, about a story my therapist turned me on to. I think she knows I'm CoD, but wanted to nudge me in the direction and see if I'd figure it out for myself. For most people, self-realization of one's dysfunctions is always more accepted, and liberating, than someone coming straight out and telling you about your dysfunction.

www.slideshare.net/cyaneum/the-missing-piece-meets-the-big-o

I said how this struck a chord with me. I now know why. That's what being a CoD is like.

The good news is, this can be fixed. We can become the "Big O". Let's roll!

www.psychcentral.com/lib/recovery-from-codependency/00014956

P.S. - I am asking the mods to PLEASE not move this. IMO, this is VERY relevant to those wanting to detach from a BPD relationship. Being CoD is why some of us keep/kept going back to the xBPD and, if not treated, may make the same mistake again. Information, and knowledge, is power.

[enlighten me]

While I agree CoD is similar to BPD as it has coping mechanisms. My personal belief though is that it was not a turn in the road difference but a genetic difference.

This is why some people who have excellant childhoods end up BPD or aspd and why others who have awful childhoods dont.

I certainly think that nurture and our FOO have a huge part to play in our behaviour. Like yourself I have no formal education in this and dont know if CoD could be classed as a pd or whether its just a set of traits.

[Mel1968]

Er, having read all this and the links, I think it may safe to say that I'm co dependent. I just thought I was a nice person who wanted to do the best by people.

I'm saying it flippantly, but actually, I am feeling a bit rocked by this discovery. I did have an inkling from things that folk have mentioned on the boards, but seeing it all laid bare like this, and recognising myself completely is another matter entirely.

I cried at the Big O slide, it broke my heart. Admittedly, I do cry often at the moment, but even so... .

Gosh. Of course I have to keep away from her, for both our sakes. I'm so very very sad.

Actually, I think I might be feeling quite a lot rocked by this discovery.

[Trog]

Im codependent and I feel so much better accepting, reading about and understanding my role in the failure of my marriage than I do pointing the finger at my ex. I can never really know what's going on with my ex, what she is thinking and I certainly can't fix her. With myself I have the power and control to fix myself. The minute I feel pain over my marriage, switching to the mindset of my own codependency brings massive relief even if it's acknowledging a fault in myself. Ive spent years bogged down with my ex and before that crap relationships, the idea o can fix it and find real love is a tonic against the back drop of heartbreak of my failed marriage

[Mel1968]

Trog, that makes such a lot of sense, thank you. Even though our relationship is over, I've been spending all my time reading and learning about BPD. That's been really useful in terms of reassuring me that what's been happening is perfectly normal, but I've also been thinking a lot, "oh, if only I'd known that earlier I could have behaved differently, it would all be ok now" or "well, it was always doomed, her BPD made sure of that."

But I can see now that a change of focus to me, in relation to me, not just in relation to her BPD, will be very helpful.

Daunting.

[Olivia_D]

Hi All, I know that I have many Co-Dependent behaviors.  Here's what I have learned about Co-Dependency, via therapy and counseling, and 20 year in Al-Anon.  It is a deeply entrenched set of behaviors and not a personality disorder but it is still a challenge to unravel those long-standing behaviors.  Here's what I have for my compilation on Co-Dependency.  We are seemingly the perfect dance partner for PD people.  Surprise, surprise.  

As it has been explained to me, a person with Co-Dependent traits learned such “behaviors” in early childhood.  It was/is essentially a survival mechanism for the Co-Dependent to calm the waters of a stormy / chaotic home environment.  It is a role that you assume to keep people and events in your life from escalating; it is way to control your environment in order to de-escalate situations and control your anxiety.  These are learned behaviors to remain safe and are not the same as having a personality disorder.  I have learned that Co-Dependent traits are indicative of a way to manage PTSD (anxiety associated with fight, flight, or freeze). 

People with PTSD and Co-Dependent traits are very much aware of other people’s moods, actions, behaviors, sickness, well-being, love, withdrawal, et cetera.  In PTSD terms, this is called hypervigilance.  It is a triggered response, reaction, management, survival mechanism, to another person’s behavior.

Over time, a Co-Dependent learns to put their needs, wants, desires on the backburner as there isn’t enough time in the day to people please and take care of themselves.  In doing so, a Co-Dependent will decide that they are the defective one and they need to “fix” themselves in order to help “fix” the other person. You essentially take on personal responsibility for everyone around you as-if you caused the problem or issue.  In the mind of a Co-Dependent, if you caused the issue, you can fix the issue. 

This caretaking / people pleasing / putting yourself last is the Holy Grail for a person with a personality disorder, particularly BPD, NPD, ASPD, and histrionics as they can be in the spot-light 24/7 when they have a Co-Dependent spouse.  If it’s always about them and you always put yourself last, it is a perfect fit.  However, in order to survive (like you did in childhood where you learned these behaviors) in a relationship with a PD person, it can never become about you or reciprocity (ever) or you have disturbed your role in the PD person’s life. In order for the PD person to keep you in “check,” they grow increasingly manipulative, violate boundaries, lash out, project their negative traits / behaviors on to you, and essentially make it perfectly clear that it is their way or the highway.  Well, it is this very behavior / treatment / pathology that likely caused you to develop Co-Dependent traits as a survival mechanism in your childhood and it triggers those deeply-engrained beliefs that you must always subjugate yourself and your needs / wants / desires and never assert yourself or you will be discarded, rejected, or abandoned.  In turn, you feel defective and go back to being a caretaker to maintain the status quo of the relationship and to keep the person / events from escalating.   

The more that your self-esteem is damaged and you feel defective or less-than, you take on 100% responsible for everything in the relationship, you go through periods of great self-doubt and start believing that this abusive person’s projections towards you or their assessment that you are the dysfunctional one starts to take hold.  The abuse cycle of charm-silence-rage continues to keep you in check. 

In order to survive this ongoing abuse, my victims / survivors of abuse develop “Stockholm Syndrome” which is when the victim / survivor develops a strong sense of loyalty to the PD person, disregards their own needs an disregards the abuse, cannot listen to or accept objective feedback from friends or family about the situation or will not disclose anything to an outside person about the abuse, et cetera.  Stockholm Syndrome is prevalent with abused children, battered spouses, cult members, and people that are in controlling personal relationships.  This trauma bond with an abuser is a strong survival mechanism.  This is usually the most significant reason by the battered spouse didn’t just leave him / her, which is a frequent question in domestic violence cases.

While there is some overlap between BPD and Co-Dependency, the distinguishable factors seem to be

BPD feel entitled to positive treatment or “else”/ Co-Dependents follow a crumb-trail and feel less-than

BPD are dependent upon “you helping them so they feel okay” – it is a need to be taken care of, to be rescued, to be supported / Co-Dependents (while dependent) are enablers / caretakers committed to “helping another feel better at the expense of themselves – it is a need to be needed

BPD is dependent upon the other person to take care of them and enable them / Co-Dependents derive their self-worth by the approval they get from taking care of others

BPD / Co-Dependent is so busy taking care of the other person and their issues and they eventually lose themselves and put their needs / wants / desires on hold

BPD has a strong inability to hear no / Co-Dependents feel selfish, ashamed, or guilty if they say no so they will often say yes to avoid any backlash, but frequently are resentful.

BPD people have no true identity / Co-Dependent has an identity but it is suppressed or tied with caretaking and this can be rebuilt

BPD is pathological personality disorder that has a low prognosis for recovery / Co-Dependent traits are learned behaviors which can be resolved over time.

BPD people are impulsive which is spontaneous and typically not triggered by circumstance / Co-Dependent people are not typically impulsive but are a compulsive response to anxiety

BPD people have chronic feelings of emptiness—a void--which cannot be satisfied / Co-Dependents have low self-esteem / self-worth but it is repairable over time once the Co-Dependent is able to see themselves as a lovable person without have to “earn” that love by being a people pleaser.

BPD people’s moods seem to spontaneously shift with no known trigger / Co-Dependents can also have mood changes but it is typically “in response to” a behavior / situation (anxiety management) which is different from the BPD out of the blue shift in mood.

BPD people rage and throw temper tantrums at the drop of a hat/ Co-Dependents have a difficult time expressing anger and it is kept inside for long periods of time until they hit their breaking point and then it all comes out at once as the steam that has been building cannot be contained.

As a Co-Dependent, when you first look at the diagnostic criteria for BPD you gulp and say oh my, some of that sounds very familiar.  However, as my therapist said, each one of items in the diagnostic criteria has to be looked at closely to see if it is a spontaneous act or a triggered response as well as being able to know the differences between what is "impulsive" versus "compulsive" as well as other items like a "feeling of emptiness" versus low / damaged self-esteem.  Also, anger, is it explosive over little things that are out of the blue or have you suppressed your anger or building resentment for a long period of time and finally blow a screw as you finally had enough.  She also said are you trying to calm the chaos or create it?  BPD people create chaos whereas Co-Dependents run around fixing it. 

A lot of this made sense to me.  She also mentioned that non-PD people, especially Co-Dependents spend a lot of time analyzing things to stave off anxiety by making things more predictable and palatable; whereas, PD people do not bother to sort through the events and analyze matters as they are no introspective, cannot typically see anything but black and white, and they simply move on to whatever can fill the void.  Co-Dependents are left wondering what else they could have done to make it work as it is often viewed as a failure to fulfill their people pleasing role, regardless of how much they did or sacrificed or tried. 

I know that my need to help other is genuine in many respects as I truly am a kind person; however, I also know that I often care too much about the thoughts, behaviors, and acceptance of other people, especially people that dangle that love and acceptance as an invisible carrot to keep you involved in serving their needs.

I am hopeful that there is a way out of this needing to be needed as it is what makes PD people drawn to me and what keeps me trying to get an emotionally unavailable person to get it.  Not fun but recoverable with a lot of hard work.

Olivia

[dagwoodbowser]

This caretaking / people pleasing / putting yourself last is the Holy Grail for a person with a personality disorder, particularly BPD, NPD, ASPD, and histrionics as they can be in the spot-light 24/7 when they have a Co-Dependent spouse.  If it’s always about them and you always put yourself last, it is a perfect fit.  However, in order to survive (like you did in childhood where you learned these behaviors) in a relationship with a PD person, it can never become about you or reciprocity (ever) or you have disturbed your role in the PD person’s life. In order for the PD person to keep you in “check,” they grow increasingly manipulative, violate boundaries, lash out, project their negative traits / behaviors on to you, and essentially make it perfectly clear that it is their way or the highway.  Well, it is this very behavior / treatment / pathology that likely caused you to develop Co-Dependent traits as a survival mechanism in your childhood and it triggers those deeply-engrained beliefs that you must always subjugate yourself and your needs / wants / desires and never assert yourself or you will be discarded, rejected, or abandoned.  In turn, you feel defective and go back to being a caretaker to maintain the status quo of the relationship and to keep the person / events from escalating.   

Olivai: Wow... .I mean Wow! Would have loved to have quoted whole thing. I recently discovered I was COD and have been reading and researching to better myself. You pretty well nailed hours and hours of reading in several paragraphs. How Awesome! Going to cut/paste this and save to Quote Diary I've created on a Word doc.

Thanx!

[LonelyChild]

... .

Does this mean that pwBPD can function well with non-CoDs?

[Olivia_D]

LonelyChild, the quote didn't show up.  I sincerely doubt that a BPD person could survive for long with a person that doesn't have Co-Dependent traits.  BPDs and Co-Dependents, in the short term, dance the "dysfunction dance" quite well.

[Olivia_D]

Olivai: Wow... .I mean Wow! Would have loved to have quoted whole thing. I recently discovered I was COD and have been reading and researching to better myself. You pretty well nailed hours and hours of reading in several paragraphs. How Awesome! Going to cut/paste this and save to Quote Diary I've created on a Word doc.

Thanx!

Dagwood, Thank you.  I am glad it was helpful.  I have been reading about CoD for a long time.  I've made significant progress from where I was a decade ago but I have a long way to go.  Al-Anon meetings are essentially Co-Dependency meetings as it doesn't matter whether you are attempting to rescue them from alcohol, drugs, mental illness, or other things.  Awareness goes a long way.

[Irish Pride]

Er, having read all this and the links, I think it may safe to say that I'm co dependent. I just thought I was a nice person who wanted to do the best by people.

I'm saying it flippantly, but actually, I am feeling a bit rocked by this discovery. I did have an inkling from things that folk have mentioned on the boards, but seeing it all laid bare like this, and recognising myself completely is another matter entirely.

I cried at the Big O slide, it broke my heart. Admittedly, I do cry often at the moment, but even so... .

Gosh. Of course I have to keep away from her, for both our sakes. I'm so very very sad.

Actually, I think I might be feeling quite a lot rocked by this discovery.

Hi, Mel. While you know yourself better than anyone, you may want to get a professional opinion. However, I know exactly what you mean. It was a gutpunch, to be sure, when it all fell into place. I got choked up at the Big O, as well.

Hopefully, if you are CoD, you'll come to the same realization. It's fixable. I haven't felt this, at ease, in quite some time. I have answers to my questions. "Why did I stay in relationships (even friendships) that are toxic for me?" "Why did I keep going back to her?" "Why do I still think about her?" "What's wrong with me?", etc.

I'm broken, but I can be fixed. Be remade. And that thought, in itself, has brought me some much needed peace for my mind, heart and soul. I've forgiven myself for my past effup's. I've taken my first steps on a wonderful road of recovery. Hopefully, you do too!

Im codependent and I feel so much better accepting, reading about and understanding my role in the failure of my marriage than I do pointing the finger at my ex. I can never really know what's going on with my ex, what she is thinking and I certainly can't fix her. With myself I have the power and control to fix myself. The minute I feel pain over my marriage, switching to the mindset of my own codependency brings massive relief even if it's acknowledging a fault in myself. Ive spent years bogged down with my ex and before that crap relationships, the idea o can fix it and find real love is a tonic against the back drop of heartbreak of my failed marriage

Agreed! Excellent mindset. My thoughts, exactly.

Hi All, I know that I have many Co-Dependent behaviors.  Here's what I have learned about Co-Dependency, via therapy and counseling, and 20 year in Al-Anon.  It is a deeply entrenched set of behaviors and not a personality disorder but it is still a challenge to unravel those long-standing behaviors.  Here's what I have for my compilation on Co-Dependency.  We are seemingly the perfect dance partner for PD people.  Surprise, surprise.  

As it has been explained to me, a person with Co-Dependent traits learned such “behaviors” in early childhood.  It was/is essentially a survival mechanism for the Co-Dependent to calm the waters of a stormy / chaotic home environment.  It is a role that you assume to keep people and events in your life from escalating; it is way to control your environment in order to de-escalate situations and control your anxiety.  These are learned behaviors to remain safe and are not the same as having a personality disorder.  I have learned that Co-Dependent traits are indicative of a way to manage PTSD (anxiety associated with fight, flight, or freeze). 

People with PTSD and Co-Dependent traits are very much aware of other people’s moods, actions, behaviors, sickness, well-being, love, withdrawal, et cetera.  In PTSD terms, this is called hypervigilance.  It is a triggered response, reaction, management, survival mechanism, to another person’s behavior.

Over time, a Co-Dependent learns to put their needs, wants, desires on the backburner as there isn’t enough time in the day to people please and take care of themselves.  In doing so, a Co-Dependent will decide that they are the defective one and they need to “fix” themselves in order to help “fix” the other person. You essentially take on personal responsibility for everyone around you as-if you caused the problem or issue.  In the mind of a Co-Dependent, if you caused the issue, you can fix the issue. 

This caretaking / people pleasing / putting yourself last is the Holy Grail for a person with a personality disorder, particularly BPD, NPD, ASPD, and histrionics as they can be in the spot-light 24/7 when they have a Co-Dependent spouse.  If it’s always about them and you always put yourself last, it is a perfect fit.  However, in order to survive (like you did in childhood where you learned these behaviors) in a relationship with a PD person, it can never become about you or reciprocity (ever) or you have disturbed your role in the PD person’s life. In order for the PD person to keep you in “check,” they grow increasingly manipulative, violate boundaries, lash out, project their negative traits / behaviors on to you, and essentially make it perfectly clear that it is their way or the highway.  Well, it is this very behavior / treatment / pathology that likely caused you to develop Co-Dependent traits as a survival mechanism in your childhood and it triggers those deeply-engrained beliefs that you must always subjugate yourself and your needs / wants / desires and never assert yourself or you will be discarded, rejected, or abandoned.  In turn, you feel defective and go back to being a caretaker to maintain the status quo of the relationship and to keep the person / events from escalating.   

The more that your self-esteem is damaged and you feel defective or less-than, you take on 100% responsible for everything in the relationship, you go through periods of great self-doubt and start believing that this abusive person’s projections towards you or their assessment that you are the dysfunctional one starts to take hold.  The abuse cycle of charm-silence-rage continues to keep you in check. 

In order to survive this ongoing abuse, my victims / survivors of abuse develop “Stockholm Syndrome” which is when the victim / survivor develops a strong sense of loyalty to the PD person, disregards their own needs an disregards the abuse, cannot listen to or accept objective feedback from friends or family about the situation or will not disclose anything to an outside person about the abuse, et cetera.  Stockholm Syndrome is prevalent with abused children, battered spouses, cult members, and people that are in controlling personal relationships.  This trauma bond with an abuser is a strong survival mechanism.  This is usually the most significant reason by the battered spouse didn’t just leave him / her, which is a frequent question in domestic violence cases.

While there is some overlap between BPD and Co-Dependency, the distinguishable factors seem to be

BPD feel entitled to positive treatment or “else”/ Co-Dependents follow a crumb-trail and feel less-than

BPD are dependent upon “you helping them so they feel okay” – it is a need to be taken care of, to be rescued, to be supported / Co-Dependents (while dependent) are enablers / caretakers committed to “helping another feel better at the expense of themselves – it is a need to be needed

BPD is dependent upon the other person to take care of them and enable them / Co-Dependents derive their self-worth by the approval they get from taking care of others

BPD / Co-Dependent is so busy taking care of the other person and their issues and they eventually lose themselves and put their needs / wants / desires on hold

BPD has a strong inability to hear no / Co-Dependents feel selfish, ashamed, or guilty if they say no so they will often say yes to avoid any backlash, but frequently are resentful.

BPD people have no true identity / Co-Dependent has an identity but it is suppressed or tied with caretaking and this can be rebuilt

BPD is pathological personality disorder that has a low prognosis for recovery / Co-Dependent traits are learned behaviors which can be resolved over time.

BPD people are impulsive which is spontaneous and typically not triggered by circumstance / Co-Dependent people are not typically impulsive but are a compulsive response to anxiety

BPD people have chronic feelings of emptiness—a void--which cannot be satisfied / Co-Dependents have low self-esteem / self-worth but it is repairable over time once the Co-Dependent is able to see themselves as a lovable person without have to “earn” that love by being a people pleaser.

BPD people’s moods seem to spontaneously shift with no known trigger / Co-Dependents can also have mood changes but it is typically “in response to” a behavior / situation (anxiety management) which is different from the BPD out of the blue shift in mood.

BPD people rage and throw temper tantrums at the drop of a hat/ Co-Dependents have a difficult time expressing anger and it is kept inside for long periods of time until they hit their breaking point and then it all comes out at once as the steam that has been building cannot be contained.

As a Co-Dependent, when you first look at the diagnostic criteria for BPD you gulp and say oh my, some of that sounds very familiar.  However, as my therapist said, each one of items in the diagnostic criteria has to be looked at closely to see if it is a spontaneous act or a triggered response as well as being able to know the differences between what is "impulsive" versus "compulsive" as well as other items like a "feeling of emptiness" versus low / damaged self-esteem.  Also, anger, is it explosive over little things that are out of the blue or have you suppressed your anger or building resentment for a long period of time and finally blow a screw as you finally had enough.  She also said are you trying to calm the chaos or create it?  BPD people create chaos whereas Co-Dependents run around fixing it. 

A lot of this made sense to me.  She also mentioned that non-PD people, especially Co-Dependents spend a lot of time analyzing things to stave off anxiety by making things more predictable and palatable; whereas, PD people do not bother to sort through the events and analyze matters as they are no introspective, cannot typically see anything but black and white, and they simply move on to whatever can fill the void.  Co-Dependents are left wondering what else they could have done to make it work as it is often viewed as a failure to fulfill their people pleasing role, regardless of how much they did or sacrificed or tried. 

I know that my need to help other is genuine in many respects as I truly am a kind person; however, I also know that I often care too much about the thoughts, behaviors, and acceptance of other people, especially people that dangle that love and acceptance as an invisible carrot to keep you involved in serving their needs.

I am hopeful that there is a way out of this needing to be needed as it is what makes PD people drawn to me and what keeps me trying to get an emotionally unavailable person to get it.  Not fun but recoverable with a lot of hard work.

Olivia

I agree with dagwood. I've copied and pasted this into a word doc. I'm only beginning to learn, but obviously have a long way to go and much more to learn. This summary... .just wow. That's all I got!  Well, well done!

And you want to know one, tiny little thing that REALLY irks me about finding out I'm CoD? My xBPD said I was. How is that for role reversal and coming full circle? Bloody hell.

Does this mean that pwBPD can function well with non-CoDs?

My xBPD cannot. She has very few friends. The ones she does have, they have a smorgasbord of issues. One of her good "friends"/drinking buddy introduced me to her ex-bf (he thought she was bi-polar) and even admitted to me that he thought she used him. But he is REALLY wishy-washy. In fact, those were the exact words my xBPD used to describe him. He has 10 pounds of problems in a 5 pound bag. One thing my xBPD used to say ALL THE TIME to me was this... ."Birds of a feather flock together". As if there weren't enough   before. I mean, they can function with them, but I don't think they can maintain a relationship, even a platonic one, with them. At least in my experience with a BPD.

[Olivia_D]

Irish:

"And you want to know one, tiny little thing that REALLY irks me about finding out I'm CoD? My xBPD said I was. How is that for role reversal and coming full circle? Bloody hell."

Irish, remember that a broken clock is right twice a day.  Just because she's BPD doesn't mean she's ignorant.  Ponder this: If she saw that you are Co-Dependent then she was essentially agreeing that you were caretaking her dysfunction.  Otherwise, what other way could she have come to the conclusion that you have Co-D behaviors?  It is actually a validation of sorts.  Co-Dependency isn't an insult, it is a coping mechanism from being around some very dysfunctional behavior for a very long time. 

[Glutton4punishment]

Thank You Olivia for sharing your notes. While I don't share all of the same FOO circumstances, I certainly fit the CoDependent description and my ex into the BPD... .

I am ten months post divorce and 5 months NC. Though I am doing much better I am also surprised and disappointed that I'm not further along in my recovery. I still ruminate about our relationship constantly, experiencing my lowest of lows when I find myself recalling my own mistakes and feeling guilty about my portion of our demise. I miss her terribly and would take her back in an instant given the opportunity, which will never happen. I cannot stop fantasizing about having a conversation with her where I am able to identify and resolve the massive collection of wrongs between us. I know in reality that she washed her hands of me in a very short time, hates and blames me for everything, moved on to a new BF, and would likely ridicule me for not having moved on myself if I were ever to reach out to her. What seems crazy to me (literally!) is how at one moment my head can understand these concepts/patterns and agree that they fit me to a T, and yet at the same time my emotions/heart (my worry machine) will continue to cycle through the same self defeating fears and self talk completely unaffected by my head. It's like my head and heart are completely unaffected by each other. I know in my head that it would have never worked out. Our relationship would have only gotten worse. I know that I should be HAPPY to be single and unattached to her. But yet, in my heart, I am still HOOKED! Everywhere I go I am reminded of her and I think of good times. Even mundane trivial memories have become torturous reminders of how much I loved the woman that I married and her two beautiful daughters. I have to tell myself, often out loud, that in the end she was not the same woman I married, but far different. But somehow this information does not get through to my heart. I still love her. I still miss her. I still want her. I have had my heart broken before, but this relationship was different for me. The hardest part of this divorce is reconciling head and heart.

Anyway, Olivia that was excellent reading. Please share more.

[Glutton4punishment]

I also wanted to add that when I imagine my ex reading through this material, I am pretty sure she would identify herself as the codependent and ME as the BPD/NPD. This makes me Nuckin FUTS! I am amazed at how she appears to believe her own "special" view of reality. That makes me question myself, my role, my authenticity... .I wonder, am I the BPD/NPD? Am I the distorted one? Am I the controlling manipulator? She has accused me of these things in so many words and it has baffled me. So I constantly turn every fault and judgment that applies to her back onto myself and I find them all sticking and my self confidence eroding. I am often left looking at myself under a microscope, seeing my own faults, and feeling very uncertain about my goodness/badness.

I think the most important lesson I am learning from all this is that I am an approval junkie, especially when it comes to my romantic partner. When I require their approval on all matters, I lose myself, big time. I need to not give a rip about what anyone else thinks about me. I must have the self confidence to validate myself. This is all great in words, in theory, in my head. Putting into action is another matter.

[Irish Pride]

Irish:

"And you want to know one, tiny little thing that REALLY irks me about finding out I'm CoD? My xBPD said I was. How is that for role reversal and coming full circle? Bloody hell."

Irish, remember that a broken clock is right twice a day.  Just because she's BPD doesn't mean she's ignorant.  Ponder this: If she saw that you are Co-Dependent then she was essentially agreeing that you were caretaking her dysfunction.  Otherwise, what other way could she have come to the conclusion that you have Co-D behaviors?  It is actually a validation of sorts.  Co-Dependency isn't an insult, it is a coping mechanism from being around some very dysfunctional behavior for a very long time. 

I fully agree. In fact, she's quite intelligent, which is why I still hope that, someday, my last words to her might wake her up and get her on the road to recovery. But, it's no longer my problem.

It definitely irks me that she knew and took full advantage of it. But, she has her own dysfunction (I think she's more aware of it than she lets on) and I'm as much to blame for our relationship as she was. But, it's no longer my problem.

I also wanted to add that when I imagine my ex reading through this material, I am pretty sure she would identify herself as the codependent and ME as the BPD/NPD. This makes me Nuckin FUTS! I am amazed at how she appears to believe her own "special" view of reality. That makes me question myself, my role, my authenticity... .I wonder, am I the BPD/NPD? Am I the distorted one? Am I the controlling manipulator? She has accused me of these things in so many words and it has baffled me. So I constantly turn every fault and judgment that applies to her back onto myself and I find them all sticking and my self confidence eroding. I am often left looking at myself under a microscope, seeing my own faults, and feeling very uncertain about my goodness/badness.

I think the most important lesson I am learning from all this is that I am an approval junkie, especially when it comes to my romantic partner. When I require their approval on all matters, I lose myself, big time. I need to not give a rip about what anyone else thinks about me. I must have the self confidence to validate myself. This is all great in words, in theory, in my head. Putting into action is another matter.

I know many of us have thought that same thing, whether or not we're the ones with BPD. My therapist squashed that thought right away. Everything you've described, we've all felt and gone through. And it sucks.