Will the manipulation/lies ever stop? pt.2

[Before you can make things better, you have to stop making them worse...]

So I visited my ex at the psych ward yesterday. Maybe I shouldn't have. Probably shouldn't have. She was the sweetest girl ever. She was a bit upset though, and told me how she had attacked the nurses physically and they had wrestled her to the ground and hit her with two injections to calm her down. There were also lies, and promises that of course will not be held.

When I showed up, I was a bit distant. She went into the bathroom in her room and started putting on makeup. I asked her what she's doing, she told me "I want you to think I'm pretty. You didn't smile at me when you came here and I thought maybe it's because I'm not pretty enough today." Is that manipulation? Or does she really think that? After all these years of me (and others) telling her how pretty she is, does she honestly believe what she's saying?

It's so hard for me to detach. Whenever I try to accept how insane she is (read other posts of mine), I start feeling sorry for her and start thinking that if I abandon her, she has NOTHING left (which is true - not even family of origin can put up with this anymore). When I don't accept that she's insane, I start building hope that she will change instead.

What the f do I do? This is ruining me and my entire life.

[LonelyChild]

So I visited my ex at the psych ward yesterday. Maybe I shouldn't have. Probably shouldn't have. She was the sweetest girl ever. She was a bit upset though, and told me how she had attacked the nurses physically and they had wrestled her to the ground and hit her with two injections to calm her down. There were also lies, and promises that of course will not be held.

When I showed up, I was a bit distant. She went into the bathroom in her room and started putting on makeup. I asked her what she's doing, she told me "I want you to think I'm pretty. You didn't smile at me when you came here and I thought maybe it's because I'm not pretty enough today." Is that manipulation? Or does she really think that? After all these years of me (and others) telling her how pretty she is, does she honestly believe what she's saying?

It's so hard for me to detach. Whenever I try to accept how insane she is (read other posts of mine), I start feeling sorry for her and start thinking that if I abandon her, she has NOTHING left (which is true - not even family of origin can put up with this anymore). When I don't accept that she's insane, I start building hope that she will change instead.

What the f do I do? This is ruining me and my entire life.

[Trog]

One thing I often forget, but that is really true, is that unless we are healthy and happy and whole ourselves we really can not help anyone. And often we are not only not helping, we are enabling. My wife apparently is in severe depression now, and this sounds awful, but, bloody good. For four years I was bending over backwards to maintain her in every way being emotionally abused and drained into the bargain, now no one is enabling her and she's left to look at herself in the mirror, my ex, like yours has a psychotic illness. She needs to learn (my ex) that she needs meds and it's not fair to burden everyone around by her failure to accept she is ill.

This depression should have happened years ago and if I hadn't been enabling her and trying to 'help' or 'heal' her then we'd have stood a better chance at our marriage years later if/when she ever figured it out.

We have to come to any relationship with our cup full, if you give of yourself to a person when you don't truly have something to give you make the other person a thief. This creates resentment and resentment is poison to any relationship.

[LonelyChild]

... .

I don't think I am enabling her anymore. That's probably why all this has shown itself. She used to be "ok" (BPD ok) when I enabled her. I stopped, and this is what happened. I know it's not my fault. I just talk to her, listen. I don't do much of anything, I don't validate or invalidate. I just let her talk.

What do I need to do? For me and for her. Abandoning someone who has nothing makes you feel unworthy of even being alive. How could you abandon a child (mentally) that has no family (they can't take her behavior anymore), no money, no friends, no future, lives in a really poor area with lots of drug addicts etc?

[Trog]

My ex did have a family who do go on enabling her and plenty of friends who do not know she has ever been sectioned (she just disappears while psychotic so most friends never see it) and some friends do call her out.

Could I have abandoned her if she didn't have those people? No, I don't think I could. But I'd need to seek out a huge amount of support for myself outside the situation.

'This is ruining me and my entire life' - then your cup is truly not full, if you can't leave her then you at least need to take better care of you first and her second and with capacity. Go out and get support, do not lose sight of your goals, tend to all your needs as a top priority, it's really true, if you do not come with your cup full, it can not 'run over' for the benefit of others, a miserable and ruined you is not the help to her you might believe it is.

[LonelyChild]

My ex did have a family who do go on enabling her and plenty of friends who do not know she has ever been sectioned (she just disappears while psychotic so most friends never see it) and some friends do call her out.

Could I have abandoned her if she didn't have those people? No, I don't think I could. But I'd need to seek out a huge amount of support for myself outside the situation.

'This is ruining me and my entire life' - then your cup is truly not full, if you can't leave her then you at least need to take better care of you first and her second and with capacity. Go out and get support, do not lose sight of your goals, tend to all your needs as a top priority, it's really true, if you do not come with your cup full, it can not 'run over' for the benefit of others, a miserable and ruined you is not the help to her you might believe it is.

My life is working fine in other areas. But when I get home at night, I become full of anxiety. I'm studying and it's going great. I have friends to hang out with. Problem is late nights and early mornings, nightmares etc.

I really wish someone else could take over. But no one wants to. Not even her parents anymore. I don't think I could live with myself abandoning someone in this situation.

[LonelyChild]

Trog,

How old is your wife? For how long has she been your wife? Is your r/s working out? Is she getting better?

[Trog]

My ex did have a family who do go on enabling her and plenty of friends who do not know she has ever been sectioned (she just disappears while psychotic so most friends never see it) and some friends do call her out.

Could I have abandoned her if she didn't have those people? No, I don't think I could. But I'd need to seek out a huge amount of support for myself outside the situation.

'This is ruining me and my entire life' - then your cup is truly not full, if you can't leave her then you at least need to take better care of you first and her second and with capacity. Go out and get support, do not lose sight of your goals, tend to all your needs as a top priority, it's really true, if you do not come with your cup full, it can not 'run over' for the benefit of others, a miserable and ruined you is not the help to her you might believe it is.

My life is working fine in other areas. But when I get home at night, I become full of anxiety. I'm studying and it's going great. I have friends to hang out with. Problem is late nights and early mornings, nightmares etc.

I really wish someone else could take over. But no one wants to. Not even her parents anymore. I don't think I could live with myself abandoning someone in this situation.

There's a reason no one else wants to, if it's family I guess she has been like this for a long time and they have tried the lot and are fed up and exhausted and waiting for the rock bottom last chance saloon.

In any case, do you have a therapist? Why do you feel this woman is your responsibility when even her family have given up, why do you put yourself through that? It's gonna pang but you. Must be getting some self worth out of this. I'm not a therapist and it sounds as if talking this obligation and situation through with them would give you some clarity? I know it hurts, especially the psychosis and illness part, it's much easier to leave a BPD who hurts you than a person who you can see is frightened by their own psychosis, I know how much it hurts and how much the desire to save that woman who is almost like a child. (Until they turn on you) is.

[cosmonaut]

My life is working fine in other areas. But when I get home at night, I become full of anxiety. I'm studying and it's going great. I have friends to hang out with. Problem is late nights and early mornings, nightmares etc.

I really wish someone else could take over. But no one wants to. Not even her parents anymore. I don't think I could live with myself abandoning someone in this situation.

I think it's extremely kind for you to be there for your ex.  I also understand how exhausting it must be for you, especially emotionally.  Just be sure to keep taking good care of you.  I really do think it's very noble of you to be there for your ex when she is in such need.  If it gets to be too much, however, let one of the social workers know that you need a break.  That's ok.  You are hurting very badly yourself.  We can only really be in a position to help others when we are strong and healthy ourselves.   

[Trog]

Trog,

How old is your wife? For how long has she been your wife? Is your r/s working out? Is she getting better?

She's in her late 30s, we were together 7 years, no it's not working out, I left her a year ago, is she getting better... .Who knows. I doubt it. For that entire time she denied she had a problem, came off meds, blamed the doctors, blamed me, blamed her family and refused to see she had a problem, being sectioned 5 times hasn't given her a clue. The last I spoke to her she was depressed.

In the end, I realised I was a person too and I was putting myself square last, exactly where my wife put me and my needs well or sick. I abandoned her during section 4. I could not take anymore lies, abuse and shiv stirring, triangulation with her family. I only have 80 years, I don't have time to dedicate my life to a sick person who is making no effort to get well.

[Trog]

My life is working fine in other areas. But when I get home at night, I become full of anxiety. I'm studying and it's going great. I have friends to hang out with. Problem is late nights and early mornings, nightmares etc.

I really wish someone else could take over. But no one wants to. Not even her parents anymore. I don't think I could live with myself abandoning someone in this situation.

I think it's extremely kind for you to be there for your ex.  I also understand how exhausting it must be for you, especially emotionally.  Just be sure to keep taking good care of you.  I really do think it's very noble of you to be there for your ex when she is in such need.  If it gets to be too much, however, let one of the social workers know that you need a break.  That's ok.  You are hurting very badly yourself.  We can only really be in a position to help others when we are strong and healthy ourselves.   

Noble white knights end up with arrows through their body and usually slung by the fair maiden you were trying to save! The thing that keeps many of us stuck, due to our FOO is this bloody idea of being noble in the face of debilitating abuse and neglect from our wives and girlfriends. See how far being noble gets you, you do NOT get what you deserve in this life, you get what you negotiate. None us here have any of the medals we deserve and instead are painted black and many times taken to the cleaners for friends, money and self worth by our exes.

It's not selfish to look after yourself, it's self-full and allows you the ability to properly give in a healthy relationship. I'm not saying this so strongly to hurt anyone here, I'm saying it because this attitude brought me close to suicide, feeling like I'd failed my ex in my white knight role brought me to the brink and I don't want to see anyone down there feeling noble and being broken.

[cosmonaut]

I appreciate that's your experience, Trog.  And for you that was the right decision.  No one can dispute that.  That doesn't mean it's the right decision for everyone.  LonelyChild must choose for himself what is the right choice in the level of interaction he wants with his ex.  She is clearly in a very bad place, and I am not going to criticize him for wanting to be there for her.  I can very much understand how he feels, and I can respect it.  Just as I could respect if he feels that he needs to step away.  That's why I recommended that he speak to a social worker if he doesn't feel that he is in a position to be able to be a support for her.  That way the SW could step in as a support.  Everyone here would understand that.

I think sometimes we misinterpret not being a white knight to be we stop caring for someone else's welfare.  I don't think that's the case.  We don't have to rescue someone from the consequences of their actions, but we can still show them love and support.  I don't think that's being a white knight nor a codependent.

These are complex relationships.  At least more complex than most.  There is seldom a clear right and wrong answer.  I hear the point that you are making, Trog, that LonelyChild should take care of himself too, and it's a very good point.  You are right.  We all need to care for and nurture ourselves.  He does not need to be a martyr for his ex.  But it's ok to care and want to be there too, don't you think?

[Mutt]

Hi Trog,

I can understand how difficult it can be when you bend over backwards for someone and you're denigrated and devalued. I'm sorry you had to go through that.

I think you can have compassion with boundaries.

Hi LonelyChild,

I'm sorry you're going through this. Many people in her life may of told her she's pretty and it may of helped her esteem. A pwBPD have low esteem and low self worth. I understand this is the second thread and I feel like I'm walking in the middle of a movie. What's the back story on her parents and they aren't supporting her?

[Trog]

But it's ok to care and want to be there too, don't you think?

Of course. Just not to his detriment and his last sentence of his original post was saying how it is to his detriment.

Of course we are all at different levels of healing. I'm a year out and the OP is still in the maelstrom of this. I have care and compassion for him and perhaps it isn't coming across due to the strength of my words. If that's the case it's not my intention. I know his pain probably more than most here as we have the added element of hospitalizations, he will reach a conclusion that is right for him in time and I highly recommend he gets as much help as possible from any services open to him including the hospitals own. I get the desire to help those we love but all that help is far higher quality if we are ourselves are taking care of ourselves as #1. Mine is one opinion, maybe not even correct for the OPs own particular circumstances.

Mutt is right, compassion with boundaries, not compassion that denigrates your own sense of health or sanity. I truly extend warm compassion to the OP, I know his sentiments are coming from good.

[LonelyChild]

I think you can have compassion with boundaries.

Unforunately, I am so far away from that position, it is merely words for me at this point.

But it's ok to care and want to be there too, don't you think?

Of course. Just not to his detriment and his last sentence of his original post was saying how it is to his detriment.

Of course we are all at different levels of healing. I'm a year out and the OP is still in the maelstrom of this. I have care and compassion for him and perhaps it isn't coming across due to the strength of my words. If that's the case it's not my intention. I know his pain probably more than most here as we have the added element of hospitalizations, he will reach a conclusion that is right for him in time and I highly recommend he gets as much help as possible from any services open to him including the hospitals own. I get the desire to help those we love but all that help is far higher quality if we are ourselves are taking care of ourselves as #1. Mine is one opinion, maybe not even correct for the OPs own particular circumstances.

Mutt is right, compassion with boundaries, not compassion that denigrates your own sense of health or sanity. I truly extend warm compassion to the OP, I know his sentiments are coming from good.

Your posts mean so much to me. I truly do not know what to do at this point. I also fear that she is keeping orbiters around because she is very secretive about many things. I've told her that it's ok if that is what she wants, just be honest about it. I wouldn't judge. But I still think she's lying. Saying she wants to get back with me. The pain is just unbearable some days. I sometimes wish she would just end her life for the benefit and me, herself and her family of origin. This doesn't seem to get any better, just worse over the last 10 years (she's 23 now).

[Hadlee]

LonelyChild - my heart goes out to you

I understand what you are going through, to a certain extent.  Reading your story reminded me of one of my family members, who was hospitalized due to hurting himself during a psychotic episode (I won't go into the full details).

All his life he has been aggressive and would snap out of the blue.  For many years I was scared of him, especially when the 'crazy eyes' would appear.  As I got older I realized just how much pain he was in, and I also many times hoped he would end his own suffering.  My family have always supported him and will continue to do so.  He is a good guy, but he is living with demons.  It's incredibly sad.  I'm sorry the family of yours have disowned her.  It is a difficult thing to deal with for any family.

I visited my family member in the hospital and it was one of the most gut wrenching things I have faced.  Due to him lashing out, he had been put into an induced coma and was cuffed to the bed.  So I understand your compassion, concern and empathy after your visit to the hospital.

My experience is a little different to yours as this involved my family member, however I could never disown him

Just make sure you take care of yourself and ensure you get the support you need.  Many hugs to you, LonelyChild