When they were children

[Notwendy]

Inspired by Stalwart's post, I'll start the thread

1. Adults shamed as children are afraid of vulnerability and fear of exposure of the self.

2. Adults shamed as children may suffer extreme shyness, embarrassment and feelings of being inferior to others. They don't believe they make mistakes. Instead they believe they are mistakes.

3. Adults shamed as children fear intimacy and tend to avoid real commitment in relationships. These adults frequently express the feeling that one foot is out of the door prepared to run.

4. Adults shamed as children may appear either grandiose and self-centered or seem selfless.

5. Adults shamed as children feel that, "No matter what I do, it won't make a difference; I am and always will be worthless and unlovable."

6. Adults shamed as children frequently feel defensive when even a minor negative feedback is given. They suffer feelings of severe humiliation if forced to look at mistakes or imperfections.

7. Adults shamed as children frequently blame others before they can be blamed.

8. Adults shamed as children may suffer from debilitating guilt These individuals apologize constantly. They assume responsibility for the behavior of those around them.

9. Adults shamed as children feel like outsiders. They feel a pervasive sense of loneliness throughout their lives, even when surrounded with those who love and care.

10. Adults shamed as children project their beliefs about themselves onto others. They engage in mind-reading that is not in their favor, consistently feeling judged by others.

11. Adults shamed as children often feel ugly, flawed and imperfect. These feelings regarding self may lead to focus on clothing and make-up in an attempt to hide flaws in personal appearance and self.

12. Adults shamed as children often feel angry and judgmental towards the qualities in others that they feel ashamed of in themselves. This can lead to shaming others.

13. Adults shamed as children often feel controlled from the outside as well as from within. Normal spontaneous expression is blocked.

14. Adults shamed as children feel they must do things perfectly or not at all. This internalized belief frequently leads to performance anxiety and procrastination.

15. Adults shamed as children experience depression.

16. Adults shamed as children block their feelings of shame through compulsive behaviors like workaholis, eating disorders, shopping, substance abuse, list-making or gambling.

17. Adults shamed as children lie to themselves and others.

18. Adults shamed as children often have caseloads rather than friendships.

19. Adults shamed as children often involve themselves in compulsive processing of past interactions and events and intellectualization as a defense against pain.

20. Adults shamed as children have little sense of emotional boundaries. They feel constantly violated by others. They frequently build false boundaries through walls, rage, pleasing or isolation.

21. Adults shamed as children are stuck in dependency or counter-dependency.

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[Notwendy]

19. Adults shamed as children often involve themselves in compulsive processing of past interactions and events and intellectualization as a defense against pain.


This is so true, for both of us. When I was a kid, if I asked for something, my mother would be sure that what I asked for was what I didn't get. I was also shamed in a way for wanting something. I know that my H was shamed as a child for wanting by his critical father. If he asked for something, his dad would say " you don't want that".

So, we got into this loop over me wanting to reset my ring. I saw some rings and wanted them- pretty normal response- they were pretty. There was no other reason. Even if I didn't get one, or could not afford one, there is no shame in wanting one. If people didn't want things, commercials would not work.

So, I propose the idea. Maybe it isn't going to happen, and I already know I would have to restrict my want into the "affordable" category, but still, it was just an idea. To my H, it felt like " I don't like the ring you bought me" and his response to me was negative. This triggered my shame " how dare I want or ask for something" "I shouldn't ask for things I want". I start to cry- because it is hard for me to ask. This triggers my H's shame " I'm a bad husband, now she is crying, now I have to let her have the ring she wants so I'm not a bad guy" I'm then sobbing " I wish I didn't ask this in the first place".  

And so goes the crazy cycle... .

[vortex of confusion]

This triggered my shame " how dare I want or ask for something" "I shouldn't ask for things I want". I start to cry- because it is hard for me to ask. This triggers my H's shame " I'm a bad husband, now she is crying, now I have to let her have the ring she wants so I'm not a bad guy" I'm then sobbing " I wish I didn't ask this in the first place".  

I have been following the conversations about shame and childhood and what not. The question that I keep coming back to is "How is focusing on their triggers helping me?" My husband's triggers aren't likely going to change. No matter how much I understand them or can identify the source. The only one that can change his triggers are HIM. I can be mindful of them and try not to deliberately trigger him. The reality is that the only way to avoid them completely is to go back to walking on eggshells.

Likewise, my triggers belong to ME. I am solely responsible for addressing that.

How would things be different if you could figure out a way to deal with your trigger so that your husband's negative response didn't trigger you? In my mind, and limited experience, focusing on my trigger and doing better with MY reactions is helping me to short circuit the crazy cycle.

[Fian]

At the risk of causing a political argument (which no one wants), I have started to see some BPD type behaviors in politics.  The concept of trigger warnings, and creating safe spaces, as a way to condemn those that say things that are "triggering" others.  It seems that if it is unacceptable in a BPD relationship, it probably shouldn't be acceptable in the political realm either.  Anyway, risky subject, and I hope I haven't derailed this thread.  If you disagree with me and want to debate, send me a PM.

Thanks

[Notwendy]

Vortex, I agree with you that focusing on our own triggers is most effective. We can only change our own triggers.

What is helpful to me to understand my H's triggers is that when I do, I don't take it personally. Long before I understood much about what was going on, my H would blame me for triggering him, and I would take what he said personally. Once I understood that it was mostly about him, I didn't take it personally. That helped me to not react emotionally and get into that cycle.

I think we can only work on our own triggers, but I also don't see it as having to choose. We can be aware of them both even if we can only work on ours.

Fian, yes, I agree with not getting into politics, but I would say that it seems to me that politics is dysfunctional, where people can paint the "other" side black and political comments can be inflammatory. In my own experience, knowing people on all sides of the political spectrum, I see both sides being more diverse than that, with some people struggling over having to choose one side since neither side fits exactly... .and I try to stay out of arguments.

[waverider]

reads like a list of my partners personality traits

[Notwendy]

Yes, it does, but reads like some of mine too.

The biology of this is interesting. How do some of us become nons- looking at ourselves ( but many are co-dependent) and some be what I call the projectors- blaming others while seemingly unaware of themselves? It must be some combination of biology- some are more vulnerable in different ways  to being shamed.

19. Adults shamed as children often involve themselves in compulsive processing of past interactions and events and intellectualization as a defense against pain.




This could also define my relationship and possibly others here might identify with this. Having lacked emotional validation as a child myself, I married someone who, when I get emotional, feels criticized and projects back at me.

Now, we each have qualities that are also positive, which attracted us to each other, but this issue is one that gets us into these impossible loops. What we have to do is be aware of our own issues and choices. This is one reason why people can leave one difficult relationship and end up choosing another one that is similar- because our own issues are played out in relationships.

[misuniadziubek]

I was watching a video by John Bradshaw based on his book series and one of the things he talked about is that what we experience as children affects what we look in for a partner as a result. Yes all the way down to the terrible ways we were treated by our parents. We look to recreate the conflict we saw... .

That's why people fall 'in love at first sight'. This is familiar! You understand my plight!

I'd say that up to 70% of those apply to me, or did. I've overcome some. Even more for my pwBPD. I'd say our childhoods weren't THAT terribly different. Simply up to the age of 4, I had a nurturing extended family that negated a lot of what was going on and didn't have a probable predisposition to BPD.

I recently had a deeper conversation with my partner explaining to him how hurtful he was to me when he is angry or frustrated. He's responded with, those words are just words because I'm mad. They hold no meaning to me. I spent my childhood hearing those all the time

My issue is: So did I.  I just responded differently. We take on different roles to process our childhood issues. If we felt enough at loss of control we act the perpetrator so that we feel in control. My pwBPD has low self esteem. Anytime I tell him that I appreciate his support or that he's been particularly nice, he instantly denies it. Tells me that he's really nothing special, that I could probably end up with someone who is actually better.

Until my pwBPD, I've been the one to keep one foot out the door. Again I expressed it differently. I generally kept all my relationships at a distance. Often times a physical distance. If someone was at a proximity close enough that I'd see them regularly, I'd kill the relationship asap. People I genuinely liked as well. I'm pretty convinced that my partner has ... .quite forcibly healed that in me. Whenever I started to retreat, he instantly would confront me. Either you' want to be with me, or you don't. Make a decision.

[OffRoad]

I think that if I know what my H's triggers are, I can be more mindful of not doing something that triggers him (if it is possible, sometimes it isn't). It's no different that common courtesy. If I let a door slam on someone's face, that isn't going to make them happy. But if I hold the door for them as I walk through, they will know I wanted to ease their passing through the door.

I have no intentions of twisting myself into a pretzel to avoid causing a trigger in my H, but by the same token, if I can avoid one, why shouldn't I? And if I don't know what might be causing the triggers, how can I avoid them? Knowledge is power, as the old saying goes. Knowing that my H has the "get them before they get me" mentality makes it easier for me to short circuit his feeling like I am out to get him.

So for me, "How is focusing on their triggers helping me?" It helps me avoid the arguments and meltdowns by sidestepping a trigger when I can, which leads to a happier life.

[takingandsending]

This leads me to a question of what you do when you are raising young children with a BPD parent. I have a lot of these issues, which is why I met, fell in love with and married my uBPDw. But I turned a different direction than she  did as a child and lived a different story. Now our stories have met, and I accept that I am powerless to change the course of her story and can only address my own story.

I try to teach my sons to accept that wanting is okay, that asking is okay, that making mistakes is okay, that having and even sometimes taking is okay. That being angry or happy is okay. I just don't know how much of a dent it makes in the frequent shame spillages that my wife or I have. I suppose, like anything, we simply do our best to not harm and encourage growth. Tough world for kids to grow up in, though.

[Stalwart]

2. Adults shamed as children may suffer extreme shyness, embarrassment and feelings of being inferior to others. They don't believe they make mistakes. Instead they believe they are mistakes.

5. Adults shamed as children feel that, "No matter what I do, it won't make a difference; I am and always will be worthless and unlovable."

I find these probably the most powerful and guiding statements in the list apart from the emptiness and the lack of defining self they feel.

I talk to a lot of people on line that are borderline. These are the two common characteristic they all seem to share in. In most cases it totally guides their emotions and perceptions with relationships.

What chances do you possibly have when seeking love to alleviate loneliness is so strong and only overshadowed in its intensity by the understanding that it will fail and abandonment is even more desperate.

It breaks my heart to see the confessionals some send me on just how alone they are and how much they despise themselves and why. The sheer intensity of reading someone justifying ending their lives can just bring tears to your eyes when you can see through the darkness and know that if only some of the people had people in their lives how much it could help them.

I take my hat off to the people here that take on that task of making lives better for all the difficulties and challenges they confront doing it. Exceptional people and I hope that each and every one of you know that about yourselves.    

[Notwendy]

Bradshaw's books resonated with me as well.

One of my determinations is to break the cycle with my kids, and that starts with me. It was a huge motivator to work on myself.

No parent is perfect, I do the best I can- we all do. However, I think the qualities that can go a long way include: unconditional love, validation, healthy boundaries, and respecting their boundaries.

I also observe my FOO and my H's over several generations. It's interesting how kids raised in similar environments can be effected so differently by these dynamics. I also look at the roles the kids play-who is the golden child, who is the scapegoat, which adults are the enablers/caretakers and who is being care taken. I have tried very hard to not impose these roles on my kids. In addition, I try hard to avoid the trappings of narcissistic families that look at the kids as extensions of themselves. They are their own people.

For parents who try to do the right thing. Don't underestimate the power of one person to break the spell of the family lie or to be a positive role model, to take a stand for honesty. One person can have a lot of influence.

[takingandsending]

Oddly enough, Notwendy, my wife sees herself in that role in her FOO  - as the one to break the bonds of shame and become a source of unconditional love, honesty and integrity. That is part of what drew me to her. Her aspirations and intentions are really fine, the execution not so much. In the end, we can have great intentions, but with little self-awareness, can be incredibly destructive. And that, too, is truly heartbreaking to bear witness.

I think with children, doing frequent repairs is important. We strive for unconditional love, fall short, feel ashamed, feel less than, but it is important to return to a child to let them know that their experience did happen, that we saw it and that we are still there for them, flaws and all. Especially for children with a BPD parent(s), they need that reassurance that love extended is still there for them. My 9.5 year old suffers badly from that fear of abandonment, poor kid. So strange that my wife cannot sympathize with it at all ... .

[Notwendy]

That is sad. I think thr frequent repairs go a long way. Even great parents can get stressed. The power of an apology goes a long way, as does affirming a child's reality and being truthful. I was subjected to denial and gaslighting - told my perception was wrong or moms issues were my fault. I learned not to have confidence in my own peceptions. When my kids have friendships- and also they are old enough to date- I tell them to trust their feelings. If they get an icky feeling about a friend- to trust that.

Things like that I hope are helpful- trust in themselves, their intuition, their perception. Trust their boundaries. We have rules in our family but they are not enforced by fear of parents raging.

[ColdEthyl]

reads like a list of my partners personality traits

If it was a checklist, I could check off all of those for my H... .and a few for me.

[Stalwart]

That's the real point to the list that ColdEthyl and others have mentioned. I really wonder how many of us do see some of these issues from our own childhoods as well and if there's a commonality to that with supporters? I can easily say I found five of those points in the list reflected directly to my own feelings as a kid.

The second thing is a bit more interesting. I wonder how many of us took the time to go through the list and really, actually imagined themselves as children in those situations. That's when it  really hits your heart when you feel a child cower in a corner or lay in their beds at night belittling themselves and wondering if anyone in the world loves them. Pretty dark place to go - it could break your heart if you spent enough time there.

[ColdEthyl]

That's the real point to the list that ColdEthyl and others have mentioned. I really wonder how many of us do see some of these issues from our own childhoods as well and if there's a commonality to that with supporters? I can easily say I found five of those points in the list reflected directly to my own feelings as a kid.

The second thing is a bit more interesting. I wonder how many of us took the time to go through the list and really, actually imagined themselves as children in those situations. That's when it  really hits your heart when you feel a child cower in a corner or lay in their beds at night belittling themselves and wondering if anyone in the world loves them. Pretty dark place to go - it could break your heart if you spent enough time there.

To be honest, Stalwart, halfway through the list I was reflecting on my childhood and felt like I was going to cry. Some days I beat myself up in my head about thinking about the past. I mean come on I'm 36, right? Time to grow up and quit crying about it. That's what I tell myself, anyway. Then it comes back, it makes me feel stupid for caring... .then stupid for feeling stupid for caring.

What takingandsending expresses gave me pause, also. Has having my children around a pwBPD been a good thing, or a bad? For me, my children have already been exposed to mental illness because of my brother (paranoid schizophrenic, I have taken care of him for 16 years since he was 14) and BPD isn't too far off. A lot of the same issues my brother deals with my husband does.

My children are 10 and 15, the 15 year old acts a lot like me. She's quiet... .refuses to ask for help, and mothers everyone. She's very empathetic to people who are picked on, 'different', and animals. My 10 year old is autistic/Asperger's, so a lot of the time he doesn't show empathy but when it's explained to him, he does understand. He is tries hard to always be nice to people, but he does lose his temper easy, and is still learning how to cope with society. His therapist said he has acclimated to society very well and she said it's because I worked with him so much.

For the most part, I think it's been beneficial. My children already had experience with a mental illness. I think it has made them more understanding of others. My H is really good at never acting up around them, but there are things that I talk to the kids with to get their thoughts and insights on.

The other part of me thinks I'm screwing them up like I was. I know that's not true... .my kids are not abused, ignored, told they were less than anyone else, etc etc But my fear and paranoia make me uneasy.

[Stalwart]

Hey ColdEthyl:

Sounds to me like those two kids have an absolutely wonderful mother that’s doing all the right things ColdEthyl. You really have a challenge with the young boy and I really don’t have the experience with Asperger’s to comment but can so easily see he’s in the very best hands he can be.

I grew up in a very dysfunctional family. A mother with UBPD/histrionics and a father who was a good man but not an understanding one. To be fair BPD didn’t even have a diagnostic recognition then. I went to bed every night and smothered my head with a pillow to try and block out the terrible fighting. My Mom would disappear for days and weeks (with other men) leaving my Dad with five kids and two jobs. I’d get ‘farmed out’ to people in our small community when she’d disappear but really didn’t understand why until I was older. My sister developed into a really difficult uBPD that fit all nine criteria with extreme alcoholism problems. My niece is even more extreme if that’s possible. It really affected my brother’s in some ways as they followed some of those same extremes we lived in as kids. For myself I took what I didn’t like and made darn sure that wasn’t going to be my life or who I was. You see there is so much that is entirely up to a child’s developing nature and not necessarily the direction and influences they have on them in their lives.

Point being, I was brought up in designed naivety because hey, you just didn’t talk about those things then. That was so wrong when I look back on the influence that had in my life.

It  wasn’t until my wife’s diagnosis that I even had a real recognition or began to have an understanding of mental illnesses. I so wish I had a better knowledge from a younger age and a healthier understanding of it. For that reason, I really admire the fact you’re giving your children that understanding. I think that’s really important when done in a healthy nonjudgmental way and I’m sure you’re really good at that just by the way you describe the relationship.

I’m a grandfather now with children you’re age and I was and still am really engaged with my daughters all their lives and my 5 grandchildren.  I’m a reflective and close person with my family and I’ve learned a few things over the years.

“But my fear and paranoia make me uneasy.” Don’t be afraid ColdEthyl, (I dislike that name actually it doesn’t reflect who you are.) You are doing an absolutely wonderful job of being just who you are and influencing your kids in a really positive way. As I already said you’re the same age as my two daughters and I’ll honestly tell you; I’d be proud of you and how you manage your life and challenges if you were my daughter. Really proud of you ColdEthyl.

I learned one thing that has so changed my perspectives with grandchildren. You can only be the best person in raising children that you can be. You are ColdEthyl. The rest will be up to the individuality and personality of your kids and honestly that will be beyond your control. My two daughters were brought up the same way with no preferences and both have developed into the most wonderful people you could hope they could be, but they are mostly extreme opposites on their outlooks and life styles. My wife at that time and I gave them the best foundation for being a decent and caring human being that we could and they followed that, but as far as the outcome: they took the sails on that.

As far as going back if you go back to places of hurt and pain I suppose it’s inevitable and none of us can change what that was for us. If I were you I’d go back with the strength and fortitude of knowing you came through your childhood and upbringing as an outstanding and strong person with real morals and caring for others. That’s a powerful thing to recognize about yourself and it’s my greatest hope you do see that in yourself. You can so see it in your posts.

You shouldn’t doubt yourself ColdEthyl you are doing a wonderful job for the situation you’re in. Your kids couldn’t hope for better or more in a mother. I also don’t believe you could ask for more or better of yourself than you already are because it’s so apparent you’re a wonderful person who is trying and achieving so much.

[ColdEthyl]

Stalwart it's too early for tears! *sniff sniff* But they are good ones. Thank you for saying that.   I know I'm doing a good job, but like I explain to my H, 'knowing' and 'feeling' are not always the same. Feelings sometimes lie to us. Logically, I step back and know my kids are great and are doing great. I know that I am doing the best I can, I know I have handles my past the best way I can. But, having Generalized Anxiety disorder makes my mind question everything.

I know that... .but I still feel the shame. I feel the uneasiness and second guessing. Because I know that... .I know how my H feels to some degree... .I know how my brother feels to some degree. My brother deals with night terrors and hearing voices. Voices he knows are not real... .but they are still there.

I try to be an example to my H in that aspect. When I catch myself with errored thinking, I use myself as an example to my husband, so I can demonstrate my point without pointing my finger at him and causing a dysregulation.

Knowledge is power. The more we can learn and know about ourselves... .the more we can understand and empathize with other people.

It  wasn’t until my wife’s diagnosis that I even had a real recognition or began to have an understanding of mental illnesses. I so wish I had a better knowledge from a younger age and a healthier understanding of it. For that reason, I really admire the fact you’re giving your children that understanding. I think that’s really important when done in a healthy nonjudgmental way and I’m sure you’re really good at that just by the way you describe the relationship.

I have always been interested in psychology... .it started with my mother. She was an absent parent, very selfish, manipulative, hypochondriac... .some sort of PD. I would say she's not BPD, but it's obvious something was going on. My dad raised us because when I was 9 and my brother was 3 she "wanted her life back". A few months later, she wanted just my brother so she could get government money for him. She would disappear for years at a time, only to pop up and demand visitation rights. She would say she's coming... .half the time she would just stand us up. She gave me alcohol at the age of 11, and I started drinking with her at the age of 14 when she would pick up for visitation... .if she picked us up. She would get animals... .keep them for awhile and when she got sick of them would drive them to a neighborhood and kick them out of the car and drive off. She would have me steal from stores with her, she would have me and my brother pretend to be collecting money for Unicef, only to keep it all to buy cigarettes and booze. Worst of all, she was married to a pedophile. He wrote these... .letters about scenarios... .things he wanted to do me. She said if I told my dad... .she would never come see me again.

And that was just my mother. My Step-mother and Step-father were also different kinds of abuse.

[Stalwart]

Ethyl for six years I was totally emerged as a volunteer researcher in support groups and think tanks dealing with specific cultural issues we’ve created in our country. I am not American. For years I sat in personal interviews with so many young people whose stories of their lives where the story of yours. One for community awareness of stereotyping and the other for possible procedural changes to a dilapidated government system.

How many, many times I had grown women and men hugging me sobbing what was left of their absolutely wounded hearts on my chest while I was brought to tears holding them. I would go home and document accounts and rip my very being to shreds and I’m scarred by it. We all have are guilt’s in some things we carry. It was impossible from the onset stepping into communities to be objective and no human with a shred of humanity in them could or should be. That’s a guilt for my part that has scarred me for life. We all have guilt’s in our closets.

I find so much hope because I have also talked to people just like you that have survived and broken the mold and more and more it is my greatest hope that more Ethyls are successful at doing that. There is an immeasurable strength to found not only in your ability to survive but you’re ability to thrive. That is why I said I’d be so proud if you were my daughter knowing your past and your challenges and accomplishments. I don’t know if my daughters would have had your strengths. They have never met the challenges. You have and it’s made you the person that you are and that’s really admirable.

There are no other answers than the term survival. I don’t know if everyone can understand the real impact of that given the circumstances. Children in such challenged creations of their own cultures all over the world hold one thing in common. A child must by their own position survive – or not. A child is subject to their environment with so few options or vision to evade it that it becomes a matter of dependency and survival to do what they have to do to simple exist another day.

The blame, the shame we know doesn’t lie in them. It lays in the those who exposed them to such harsh terms of survival. Quickly and easily said but so, so difficult for someone to come to terms with when they’ve lived it.

It would be my hope that one day you could come to terms with that and take all that strength, experience and ability you have grown to go forward and become the exceptional person you are, and take total pride in that.

You and all those who have experienced your life deserve to take strength and be so proud of who they have become and what that represents.

It honestly humbles me to say that I wish I were half the person you are for your accomplishments. I hope someday you sincerely and honestly feel the pride in yourself that I feel for you. You so deserve that and have earned that for yourself. It’s who you are and who have become that matters and that’s a person who so deserves the respect of others as a role model and that same respect for yourself.

“'knowing' and 'feeling' are not always the same.” I don’t believe they are. I believe that first you have to go through the feeling and then comes the recognition of knowing who you truly are.