2 questions

[Mel1968]

I've been reading and thinking a lot and I'm coming up with a couple of stumbling blocks which I'd appreciate your thoughts on... .

1. Projection. I know that it's often said that a person projects what they're doing on to you. My uBPDxgf accuses me of infidelity / inappropriate thoughts, motivations, interactions etc with pretty much every single man I interact with. Which, given we are lesbians, is doubly hard. Although she talks about sex tons, (and often, in my opinion, inappropriately) I don't believe for a second she has ever been unfaithful to me.  She is, I know, extremely mistrustful and uncomfortable around men, because of her own past - do you think it's as simple as me being with a man is her worst fear or am I missing something else?

2. I've read a lot about BPD being a lot about shame, but I don't really understand this. I think guilt is when you feel bad for a thing you've done or said, and shame more about your feelings about yourself generally, but what exactly, and why does this make you e.g accuse your partner of sleeping with everyone in sight and refuse to accept that anything she says or does is coming from a good rather than a bad motivation? Is it that you hate yourself so much that you can't understand someone loving you? But again, why that word, "shame"?

3. Also, have been reading a lot about codependency/caretaking and that word  crops up again and again - shame. I don't feel like I am ashamed of myself as a human being. I try my hardest to be decent. I feel bad for some of the ways I've behaved in this relationship, for sure, but I know that I was trying my best, so even then... .But now I'm starting to worry that I'm too shallow and stupid to see something glaringly obvious about myself, and that is the problem. I have definitely put up with being treated in a way that I shouldn't, but I thought it was because I could see how much she was hurting, and because I loved the way she made me feel. I understand the reasons behind both of these better now, but I'm still not sure how that relates to me and shame.

Any thoughts /opinions/explanations gratefully received - I'm trying really hard to understand all this so that 1) I can move on from this rs and 2) I can not make the same mistakes again.

Thanks

Mel

[wishfulthinking]

My BPDh went through phases of accusing me of cheating.  I really don't think he was ever unfaithful to me.  He loves me as deeply as a BPD can, just has his issues.  I really think he wasn't projecting this, it was his insecurity of the things he WAS doing wrong that made him feel like he didn't deserve me and so I would cheat.  Pure insecurity on this one.

His projection was more in the times he would rage at me that I was unappreciative, selfish, never thought of anyone else, etc... .

I do think they feel ashamed of themselves.  Mine deep down knows what his choices were and that they were wrong.  Occasionally he would show hints of remorse, but they would be buried by the next rage.  He didn't feel enough shame to stop him from doing the things, though.

I don't feel shameful of myself.  I feel stupid for putting up with what I did for so long and for the fact that I still deep down want to be with him so very badly, but I do not feel shame.  I can honestly say I tried very hard.  I changed a lot of myself to try to make him happy.  Fact is, you can't make them happy.  I can say that I am a "fixer".  I want to help those I love. 

Good luck to all of us.

[goateeki]

She is, I know, extremely mistrustful and uncomfortable around men, because of her own past - do you think it's as simple as me being with a man is her worst fear or am I missing something else?

What is her past?

I ask because I was subjected to endless (and groundless) accusations of cheating.

[klacey3]

Hi Mel,

Interesting questions... .

In terms of projection.  I think BPD's project their thoughts onto us.  Eg. When i was in my r/s he would accuse me of meeting up with another guy if he asked to meet me and I said no. He asked to meet me a while ago after a big argument and I said I wouldnt go so he told me he would take his ex to his family party. So yes he projected onto me that I would see a guy if i wasnt meeting him because HE would meet someone if I wasn't available. He tells me I would do xyz because thats what he would do.

I don't think people always project though... .I think alot of it is due to their insecurities. They think they are unlovable and dont deserve you so they become scared and think its only a matter of time beforr you realise there is better. I think this frustrates them a lot.

i dont understand the shame thing either... .my now ex used to always say I was ashamed of myself over things like not answering a phone call. I thought BPD's always thought they were in the right and won't accept responsibility, so how can they feel guilt and shame when they don't think they have done anything wrong?

In some ways I do feel shame. I did try hard with him but I feel guilty for being so angry with him and not as patient as maybe I should have been considering he has BPD and can't help the way he is. The other part of me thinks I put up with alot and the only way I could have stopped things escalating would havr been to let him call me horrible names and blame me for everything and be like a slave to his needs so that I could feel his love.

Sorry I am not much help. I don't know a great deal. What do you think?

[Mel1968]

Occasionally he would show hints of remorse, but they would be buried by the next rage.  He didn't feel enough shame to stop him from doing the things, though.

wishfulthinking- I recognise that. UNfortunately buried a bit too deep now I think. Interestingly (depressingly) she went to therapy because she believed she had BPD and felt shame/remorse about many things. T told her she doesn't have BPD (after 2 hours ... .she actually completely fulfils all but one of the DSM criteria... .er?) and since then, she has rarely shown any shame or remorse, she is 100% victim and should not be putting up with the abuse of the world, and most specifically me. Go figure 

goateeki - sorry, it doesnt feel right to talk about her past, even if it is anonymous. Suffice it to say I do understand her mistrust - but not of me!

klacey   Sorry I am not much help. I don't know a great deal I disagree completely! The sharing of experiences is really helpful. I've read several of your posts on other threads and found comfort in shared experience. And I'm hoping that with a bit of sharing of collected wisdom and support from people who understand, (as opposed to those who just can't get why you bother and keep on bothering, and why you're not over it yet) that we'll all heal and grow... .

As wishfulthinking said -- Good luck to us all!

[wishfulthinking]

She snowballed the Therapist.  They are good at selling themselves.  The therapist must not be experienced in PD's... .Most regular therapists aren't and are easily snowballed, as BPD's are master manipulators... .Then, the T ends up backing them and they come out worse than when they started because the T just reinforced everything they need to be the victim.

[goateeki]

Occasionally he would show hints of remorse, but they would be buried by the next rage.  He didn't feel enough shame to stop him from doing the things, though.

wishfulthinking- I recognise that. UNfortunately buried a bit too deep now I think. Interestingly (depressingly) she went to therapy because she believed she had BPD and felt shame/remorse about many things. T told her she doesn't have BPD (after 2 hours ... .she actually completely fulfils all but one of the DSM criteria... .er?) and since then, she has rarely shown any shame or remorse, she is 100% victim and should not be putting up with the abuse of the world, and most specifically me. Go figure 

goateeki - sorry, it doesnt feel right to talk about her past, even if it is anonymous. Suffice it to say I do understand her mistrust - but not of me!

klacey   Sorry I am not much help. I don't know a great deal I disagree completely! The sharing of experiences is really helpful. I've read several of your posts on other threads and found comfort in shared experience. And I'm hoping that with a bit of sharing of collected wisdom and support from people who understand, (as opposed to those who just can't get why you bother and keep on bothering, and why you're not over it yet) that we'll all heal and grow... .

As wishfulthinking said -- Good luck to us all!

My dBPD ex wife's mother walked out on her when she was about 11 and her sister was about 9.  She was tied up and raped by a stranger at knife point soon after we began dating.  I never even once considered cheating on her, but every time I visited a friend of spoke with a member of the opposite sex, I was accused of engaging in an affair.  Sometimes there would not even be a precipitating event -- she'd find a strand of hair in the car and accuse me of cheating, and I'd point out that the hair was our daughter's.  Sometimes she would check the position of the car seat and if it had changed, she would ask me who I'd driven in my car.  Complete craziness. 

[Mel1968]

She snowballed the Therapist.  They are good at selling themselves.  The therapist must not be experienced in PD's... .Most regular therapists aren't and are easily snowballed, as BPD's are master manipulators... .Then, the T ends up backing them and they come out worse than when they started because the T just reinforced everything they need to be the victim.

Oh my goodness, wishfulthinking, that is EXACTLY what happened! Thank you so much for saying this! It's what I believed was happening, but who am I to question a professional therapist who is clearly, in some respects, really helping her?

What actually happened time and again was she'd go and tell the therapist of some terrible crime I'd committed, the therapist would agree it was terrible, and she shouldn't put up with such stuff, she'd come back full of indignation, because "Even my therapist agrees that you are a terrible person so you must be" - all well and good and very supportive of ex's mental health... .except the initial crime never ever happened! ARGH!

[Mel1968]

I never even once considered cheating on her, but every time I visited a friend of spoke with a member of the opposite sex, I was accused of engaging in an affair.  Sometimes there would not even be a precipitating event -- she'd find a strand of hair in the car and accuse me of cheating, and I'd point out that the hair was our daughter's.  Sometimes she would check the position of the car seat and if it had changed, she would ask me who I'd driven in my car.  Complete craziness.

goateeki - sorry you had to go through such awful nonsense, but I have to admit to being reassured that I'm not alone. For me, this is the eventual blocker to us having a relationship - I could put up with a lot of the restrictions, uncertainty, ups and downs etc that I'm sure a lot of people wouldn't tolerate, but I cannot any longer put up with being accused, virtually daily, of infidelity (although she does sometimes graciously admit that I probably didn't actually do it, it was just in my head!) when actually, I've honestly  never looked at another person in that way, not once, since I fell for her. I've read about validation and I can see how it works, but ultimately I just don't want to be with someone who thinks those things about me.  Ah well! Thanks for sharing, it has helped.

[Sunfl0wer]

In response to projection:

Often my ex's projections were fears he had.  His exW was classic uBPD and he was subconsciously afraid that I would be like her.  He was so afraid of this that he would react to me the way he should have with her.  For example, I am and have always been very fair financially.  However, he would treat me like I was out to take advantage of him and would "punish" me, preemptively.  

Once our MC said to me in private, " I don't think he knows the difference between you and her."  It was true, he was projecting her, onto me.  (It was quite confusing)

Another different type of projection was how he treated my son.  He once literally ignored my son for a full two months, not even saying hello.  However, if I pointed it out to him, instead of telling me he was mad at him, or anything that made some sort of sense... . He instead would tell me that I was not paying enough attention to his D.  Which is preposterous, as I was involved in her care daily, and more than he was!  He would tell me that I didn't like his D.  (The reality was he didn't like my son) projection.

[Mel1968]

Gosh, Sunfl0wer, that must have been so so difficult, how awful for you, and your son. Do you mind saying how old he is/was and what his understanding of it is/was? I only ask because although my ex didnt live with us and my D is 17, I know that it's had an effect on her, mainly in terms of her seeing the effect on me... .that is certainly one of my guilt-inducing things... .

I recognise what you say about not knowing the difference between you and  his exW. That happened a lot with us too, although to be fair, she did occasionally realise she was doing it (in the pre-therapy days) and try and not. Her ex was really very abusive both verbally and physically and quite often I was punished for things she assumed I'd do because the ex did. Unfortunately, as time went on, I  understood more and more why they had such a tempestous relationship, as, in the face of her almost constant accusations, black is white and nastiness, I started to not recognise my former calm self and shouted and screamed and even threw things - thereby confirming hers and her therapist's view that she was, once again, the poor undeserving victim of an abusive partner. Sigh.

[Low C]

My understanding of shame, and I'm open to instruction on this topic, is that the shame felt by someone with BPD is a core thing.  She or he feels shame at some deep, deep level, possibly due to childhood trauma or feelings of abandonment.  I know that my ex stated more and less directly that there were certain topics that she would never talk to me about, and my guess is that it had something to do with this sense of shame.

The other behaviors, the ones that end up being so confusing and hurtful to us partners like projecting, denying responsibility and gaslighting, are coping methods the pwBPD uses to avoid having to deal with this sense of shame that he or she believes defines them.

Does that sound right to others?

[Sunfl0wer]

Mel,

Gratefully, my son feels that the issue is that the BF was a jerk, immature and disordered. (vs thinking himself was to blame) I was a bit shocked…as BF was never ‘overtly’ abusive.  His tactics were so insidious, so seemingly minor…that most pple could not spot it even when looking under a microscope.  It just appeared as “typical” blended family issues.

My son, while appearing mostly timid, is quite sensitive and astute.  Not to sound disparaging in anyway, however, the way a dog can sense: good person vs  not good person, I probably would have done better to pay attention to my son’s experience of the situation vs my own.

Admittingly, my son had the correct understanding of who/what my BF was within months of us dating, however, he never felt it his place to judge or express that, likely didn’t think it would affect my opinion.  My son admitted to me that he was shocked that it took me so many years!  _{(out of the mouths of babes!)}

I have to say tho, my son likely got a side of the ex that I didn’t…when I was not around.  I do not think exBF did anything too different without me there, however, he likely, with no reason to be nice and impress me….my son got to experience the “truth” of what exBF felt, while I was instead intentionally intermittently misled.

As time went on, BF was more and more revealing of himself…I became more and more resolved in my efforts…to not allow it to fall apart….tried to “force” things to work…  This was the beginning continuing of me experiencing sides to myself that I do not like.

Things ended….when I decided to form a greater alliance to myself and my own values vs maintaining the r/s.  I began to not budge from my values.  Then…  I was painted blackest for this….  That is it!  But I can live with this…knowing that I was trying to protect who I am vs give myself away for this “commitment” that only I held. (not him)

 

~SF