Acceptance of the disorder

[jhkbuzz]

I feel as though I'm in the last stages of healing and acceptance, but there's one point I keep getting "stuck" on.

The relationship is over, I have no doubt.  If she came back and wanted a second chance tomorrow I would tell her no.  I am sad that our r/s ended in such an ugly manner, but it did and there's nothing that can be done about it. I accept all of this.

Intellectually, I understand she has a disorder that makes her emotionally dysregulated and, at times, impulsively destructive - in both self-defeating and relationship-defeating ways.  I understand this is the nature of BPD. I also believe (as does my T) that she is on the dissociative spectrum. Intellectually I "get" all of it.

Yet, whenever I choose to spend any time thinking about the things she did, I become angry as if she consciously thought of all the options and purposely chose to do the most destructive thing possible. (She's not ASPD or NPD, so I know it didn't go down like that.) As if she were just like me, with my "ordered" thinking - not disordered. As if she doesn't have BPD and isn't dissociative.

I don't know if it's just an issue of time - I knew her for 7 years before I understood mental health issues were at play - maybe another 7 years needs to go by before I can completely view her as disordered?  Whatever it is, it's frustrating.  Every once and a while I feel like I grasp/accept it 100% and it's completely liberating - but it doesn't last.

Has anyone else struggled with this?

[EaglesJuju]

I have struggled with this myself. My rationality and logic tell me that the behaviors of my bf are coming from someone who has a mental illness. On the other hand, my emotions tell me that he does not care about me or love me, because of his actions. I have accepted that he has a disorder, but not radically accepted it fully. Radical acceptance is completely accepting with your mind, heart, and body.

My struggle with radical acceptance comes from my own problems with self-doubt. I will get to a point where I am almost at radical acceptance then I doubt myself and pick apart all of the negative behaviors that have affected me or hurt me. Then my emotional mind takes over and I think he is behaving this way on purpose.

I have been slowly breaking the cycle through practicing mindfulness. When I am in wise mind, I can radically accept the disorder and accompanying behaviors for what it is.

[jhkbuzz]

I have struggled with this myself. My rationality and logic tell me that the behaviors of my bf are coming from someone who has a mental illness. On the other hand, my emotions tell me that he does not care about me or love me, because of his actions. I have accepted that he has a disorder, but not radically accepted it fully. Radical acceptance is completely accepting with your mind, heart, and body.

My struggle with radical acceptance comes from my own problems with self-doubt. I will get to a point where I am almost at radical acceptance then I doubt myself and pick apart all of the negative behaviors that have affected me or hurt me. Then my emotional mind takes over and I think he is behaving this way on purpose.

I have been slowly breaking the cycle through practicing mindfulness. When I am in wise mind, I can radically accept the disorder and accompanying behaviors for what it is.

This makes sense - the times I grasp her disorder 100% and (as a result) feel completely at peace with both her and myself must be an experience of radical acceptance.  But it doesn't last.

The little bit of reading I've done about mindfulness makes me want to jump out of my skin a little bit, to be honest.    I'm a mover and a do-er with a lot of energy.  Mindfulness sounds like torture to me!

[EaglesJuju]

The little bit of reading I've done about mindfulness makes me want to jump out of my skin a little bit, to be honest.    I'm a mover and a do-er with a lot of energy.  Mindfulness sounds like torture to me!

I have ADD and I have a lot of energy myself. DBT mindfulness was designed to accommodate even movers and doers.    It is worth a try honestly.

[jhkbuzz]

My struggle with radical acceptance comes from my own problems with self-doubt. I will get to a point where I am almost at radical acceptance then I doubt myself and pick apart all of the negative behaviors that have affected me or hurt me. Then my emotional mind takes over and I think he is behaving this way on purpose.

Why do you think your struggle arises from "self doubt"?

It is probably true that he has engaged in negative behaviors that are objectively hurtful; why do you attribute that to your self doubt?

[Sunfl0wer]

Is it that to RA you feel you somehow would be less validating to your own pain?

Maybe in the past, others have treated you in a way that they shouldn't have, and you coped by thinking they were being "mean" vs "disordered," therefore to think in terms of "disordered" now feels like a huge shift in the way you process?

[jhkbuzz]

Is it that to RA you feel you somehow would be less validating to your own pain?

Maybe in the past, others have treated you in a way that they shouldn't have, and you coped by thinking they were being "mean" vs "disordered," therefore to think in terms of "disordered" now feels like a huge shift in the way you process?

Wow, Sunfl0wer. The first sentence brought tears to my eyes; there must be a grain (boulder!) of truth in it.

I think in some ways I am "holding on to the pain."  I don't know why.  Maybe it is because I feel I have the right to feel indignant; angry.  I loved her and she did terrible things to me and it's not okay. Maybe it's to self protect; I need to hold onto the pain so I never "let her back in." To be honest, it sometimes feels like there's a little person inside me that's very, very hurt and ALL of these feelings go far beyond my ex.

The rest of it I think I need to think on for a while.

Thank you.

[EaglesJuju]

Why do you think your struggle arises from "self doubt"?

I struggle with self doubt in all areas of my life. I can think clearly and rationally, but am not always sure that what I am thinking is the "right" decision or answer.

It is probably true that he has engaged in negative behaviors that are objectively hurtful; why do you attribute that to your self doubt?

When I do not doubt myself, I understand the origin of the behaviors. I get that the behavior has nothing to do with me and I do not take it personally.

Certain behaviors are easier for me to accept. I can let the behavior deflect off me like Teflon. Many of the times, that behavior is so outlandish and not plausible. For example, when he is feeling insecure and jealous he says things that are so ridiculous. During those times I accept the disorder for what it is. I do not let my emotions eclipse my rationality.

Others I have a hard time accepting, due to my own issues.  Those behaviors trigger me and although I understand why my bf is behaving that way, my own cognitive distortions get in the way. Certain behaviors hurt me, although I rationally know that he is not intending to hurt me, but my emotions take over. When I am relying on my emotions to discern the behavior, I cannot accept the disorder. I end up feeling guilty that I did not do enough

For me to radically accept certain behaviors, I need to continue to work on my own issues.

[Lucky Jim]

Hey jhkbuzz, Sure, I struggle with this, too.  I find myself evaluating my BPDxW's behavior in terms of what a normal person would do or feel, but it doesn't work that way.  Her actions reflect an irrational and unreasonable mind -- which is all part of the disorder.  I will never be able to wrap my head around her behavior, so I try to let go.  My T says that he would be worried if I could comprehend her craziness!  LuckyJim

[jhkbuzz]

It is probably true that he has engaged in negative behaviors that are objectively hurtful; why do you attribute that to your self doubt?

When I do not doubt myself, I understand the origin of the behaviors. I get that the behavior has nothing to do with me and I do not take it personally.

So the self doubt leads you to (erroneously) fear that you have done something to cause his behavior?

When you are secure in yourself you recognize that his behavior is a result of the disorder?

[enlighten me]

When I try and understand the hurtful behaviour I liken it to a person panicking in a burning building running for the exit and pushing women and children out of their way. Its not that theyre evil theyre just panicking and doing what they think they need to do to survive. Its not planned its just their instinct.

[Lucky Jim]

Hey enlighten me, I like that analogy.  My only question is: to what extent do we Nons in a r/s with a pwBPD make excuses and create justifications for conduct that we know is hurtful, not only to ourselves but to others?  My BPDxW treated my family like s*#@, yet I rationalized it or minimized what was basically rude and unacceptable behavior towards family members who are close to me, and who were never unkind to her.  Her actions towards me, of course, were far more abusive and degrading, yet I put up with it.  Agree that the disorder is what causes it, yet I wonder how frequently we Nons try to ignore the elephant in the room by pretending it's not there?  LuckyJim

[enlighten me]

I dont think its a case of justifying or excusing. Just understanding.

[Lucky Jim]

Agree.  Understanding the disorder is critical.

I guess I just needed to vent about where we draw the line between the disorder and the person.  Maybe there is no line?

LJ

[jhkbuzz]

Agree.  Understanding the disorder is critical.

I guess I just needed to vent about where we draw the line between the disorder and the person.  Maybe there is no line?

LJ

That probably gets to the heart of the question - is there a line between the disorder and the person?

I think there is.

If my ex had developed brain cancer, for example, it's possible that as the disease developed she would say and do (inappropriate or hurtful) things as a direct result of the progression of the disease.  It would be hard to live with her - as it is difficult for anyone who caretakes someone with a terminal illness.  And, in spite of all the "caretaking," I would eventually be "abandoned" after a certain amount of time.  Although I would go through the stages of grief (including anger), I would eventually grieve and heal - I wouldn't "hold it against her" for having cancer, no matter how difficult it made my life or how painful it was for me.  I would never identify "her" with her illness, as if it represented the totality of who she was in our relationship.

But yet this is exactly what I'm doing when it comes to BPD.

[Sunfl0wer]

Agree.  Understanding the disorder is critical.

I guess I just needed to vent about where we draw the line between the disorder and the person.  Maybe there is no line?

LJ

That probably gets to the heart of the question - is there a line between the disorder and the person?

I think there is.

If my ex had developed brain cancer, for example, it's possible that as the disease developed she would say and do (inappropriate or hurtful) things as a direct result of the progression of the disease.  It would be hard to live with her - as it is difficult for anyone who caretakes someone with a terminal illness.  And, in spite of all the "caretaking," I would eventually be "abandoned" after a certain amount of time.  Although I would go through the stages of grief (including anger), I would eventually grieve and heal - I wouldn't "hold it against her" for having cancer, no matter how difficult it made my life or how painful it was for me.  I would never identify "her" with her illness, as if it represented the totality of who she was in our relationship.

But yet this is exactly what I'm doing when it comes to BPD.

I think what is tricky when we are discussing neurological illnesses and mental illnesses... .

It is hard to separate the healthy person from the diseased person.  (Vs a partner who looses a leg)

With neuro or mental illness, part of the illness inherently makes it difficult for them to manage their treatment.  Because of denial, lack of cognitive skills, lack of social skills etc.  Sometimes we see our loved one demonstrate these skills, however, inconsistently.

Then consider, how angry would we be if our family member was clearly denying a course of treatment for the cancer that was proven to work?  We would have many of the similar conflicts we have with our mentally ill partner.

I think it is true with any illness... .

We want to hold people responsible for managing/treating things to the best of their ability... .but just what is their ability?  How do we judge?  Why do we judge?  The ability that was there yesterday, may be different today. 

I have thought these things... .they confuse me... .it is still all grey in my head... .I cannot draw neat boundary lines and circle these thoughts.  I even am not sure I like the term mentally ill.

[Trog]

I feel as though I'm in the last stages of healing and acceptance, but there's one point I keep getting "stuck" on.

The relationship is over, I have no doubt.  If she came back and wanted a second chance tomorrow I would tell her no.  I am sad that our r/s ended in such an ugly manner, but it did and there's nothing that can be done about it. I accept all of this.

Intellectually, I understand she has a disorder that makes her emotionally dysregulated and, at times, impulsively destructive - in both self-defeating and relationship-defeating ways.  I understand this is the nature of BPD. I also believe (as does my T) that she is on the dissociative spectrum. Intellectually I "get" all of it.

Yet, whenever I choose to spend any time thinking about the things she did, I become angry as if she consciously thought of all the options and purposely chose to do the most destructive thing possible. (She's not ASPD or NPD, so I know it didn't go down like that.) As if she were just like me, with my "ordered" thinking - not disordered. As if she doesn't have BPD and isn't dissociative.

I don't know if it's just an issue of time - I knew her for 7 years before I understood mental illness was at play - maybe another 7 years needs to go by before I can completely view her as disordered?  Whatever it is, it's frustrating.  Every once and a while I feel like I grasp/accept it 100% and it's completely liberating - but it doesn't last.

Has anyone else struggled with this?

Absolutely! It's a huge struggle. We are logical and if codependent a little caught up on black and white thinking and I think this is why I struggle sometimes to be conclusive about this relationship.

I am aghast often when I remember her choices and how she hurt me. It makes me furious to remember and also because she seemed to take great pleasure in hurting me. I understand that BPD people are feeling based and will lash out based on remembering their own trauma and it isn't even to do with us many times, but understanding it mentally and not taking it to heart emotionally are very difficult.

Why should we absolve them? Well, because they are mentally ill. I may forgive on some level but i another I will never forget and a part of me does hold her responsible. I dont like people who kick puppies either and at times she was lashing out when I was trying my hardest or already really hurt. She doesn't have that empathy or those breaks I have because from her abusive childhood she was unable to please and was the scapegoat child, I was the little Saint, the golden child, scanning the environment and being hyper vigilant of everyone's emotions, I did that to survive, for her, she was a total ass and arrogant to survive - same busted childhoods, two different reactions. It makes codependents very susceptible to BPD/npd abuse. And as we take everything to our hearts, for me it was crippling

[Mutt]

I become angry as if she consciously thought of all the options and purposely chose to do the most destructive thing possible. (She's not ASPD or NPD, so I know it didn't go down like that.) As if she were just like me, with my "ordered" thinking - not disordered.

Hi jhkbuzz,

I can understand how frustrating and angry that would feel. Is it her dissociations that's invalidating? I say that because you mention she's more on the dissociative spectrum. Is it how she restructures and alters reality at whim that's painful?

I don't think that my ex consciously self destructed on purpose and I do see that much of her behaviors are driven by the disorder? The way I interpret my ex partners destructive behaviors and splitting black is that she pushes away the people that she loves the most.  I interpret that as I meant something to her by the magnitude of her anger and destruction.

[disillusionedandsore]

This is a very interesting thread,  some really good comments.  I struggle with this too at times and I think when feeling hurt,  it hurts that he clearly didn't protect me from his destructive stuff... .Two things I personally get out of this,  one my FOO,  father also failed to protect and second I didn't know how to protect me during BPD relationship,  how to make it stop. Love to me is about protecting,  I know I felt hugely protective of him and I never felt like he reciprocated that with me.  I craved it,  I wanted him to be the big strong protective man and mind me like I was precious,  it was so painful to realise he couldn't.  No amount of explaining it to him was going change that, my focus was lost of course, I needed to protect me,  how cruel that it was from him!

[jhkbuzz]

I become angry as if she consciously thought of all the options and purposely chose to do the most destructive thing possible. (She's not ASPD or NPD, so I know it didn't go down like that.) As if she were just like me, with my "ordered" thinking - not disordered.

Hi jhkbuzz,

I can understand how frustrating and angry that would feel. Is it her dissociations that's invalidating? I say that because you mention she's more on the dissociative spectrum. Is it how she restructures and alters reality at whim that's painful?

Ohmigod YES.

The way she would restructure and alter reality by (incorrectly) "remembering" events (in order to paint me black) was painful for sure.  But that's only one way that 'reality was altered.'

The other way depended upon 'who was in the lead.' Her and her therapist named her "parts of self" - and I'm now realizing that some of her parts of self were validating (towards me) and some were incredibly invalidating. Wow, I've never really thought about this.  It's crazy making when such extremes come from the same person.

But here's the question of the year:  why is ANY of this bothering me when I can clearly identify that my ex has some profound mental health issues?  How can I know this and still not "accept the disorder"?  Why is there a little corner of my mind that can't seem to accept that she's disordered?  

I don't think that my ex consciously self destructed on purpose and I do see that much of her behaviors are driven by the disorder? The way I interpret my ex partners destructive behaviors and splitting black is that she pushes away the people that she loves the most.  I interpret that as I meant something to her by the magnitude of her anger and destruction.

I agree ^ with that - I think my ex really wanted to have a successful r/s with me, and I do believe she loved me to whatever degree she is capable of loving anyone.  I don't question any of that.

My questions today don't revolve so much around her - I've come to understand her and her disorder(s).  My questions today are more about me and why I continue to have emotional types of reactions when I think about her - especially when I understand the disorder and have no desire to recycle.

[jhkbuzz]

This is a very interesting thread,  some really good comments.  I struggle with this too at times and I think when feeling hurt,  it hurts that he clearly didn't protect me from his destructive stuff... .Two things I personally get out of this,  one my FOO,  father also failed to protect and second I didn't know how to protect me during BPD relationship,  how to make it stop. Love to me is about protecting,  I know I felt hugely protective of him and I never felt like he reciprocated that with me.  I craved it,  I wanted him to be the big strong protective man and mind me like I was precious,  it was so painful to realise he couldn't.  No amount of explaining it to him was going change that, my focus was lost of course, I needed to protect me,  how cruel that it was from him!

Wow, I have lots in common with you.  I think I'm still angry at my ex for not "protecting me" against her destructive "stuff" - as if she wasn't emotionally dysregulated and disordered.  She couldn't even protect herself or her daughter; how could I think she would protect me in any way, shape or form?

I also have a father who didn't protect me against my mother's rages - and it STILL bothers me that I couldn't clearly protect myself in my r/s with my ex.

And yes - when you come to the realization that you have to protect yourself from being cruelly treated by someone you love deeply it is PAINFUL.  But I realize that that is a reoccurring theme in my life - starting with my FOO.

[Madison66]

This is another great thread!  It took me the better part of the 3+ years I was with my uBPD/NPD ex gf to RA that many of her words and actions were from her disorder(s).  The tough thing for me in past was to make sense of it all even though she wasn't officially diagnosed.  Two separate T's that we went to for couple's T told me they saw strong traits of both BPD and NPD.  Still, I allowed her to spin her reality on to me and then took the blame for our issues together.  I was getting more frustrated and angry by the day.  My own T sessions centered on me getting out of the co-dependent and people pleasing modes.  I could then focus on myself and my needs. 

The RA that I finally embraced was not centered around my ex gf's disorder(s).  My RA was three fold:

1. I was not living my values by staying in the r/s

2. I could not and would not accept the behavior of my ex gf and how she treated me any longer, disorder or no disorder.  It didn't work for me.

3. My expectations, needs, wants, etc. were not being met in the r/s.  When I envisioned what I wanted a r/s to look and feel like, it was nothing like I was living.

I believe my T helped me to not focus on my ex gf and her issues, but rather to focus inward to deal with my own "stuff".  That was a key time for me to start to release the anger and energy around my feelings that my ex gf straight up treated me like crap at times.  I don't care if she could or could not control her actions and impulses.  They simply no longer worked for me... .

[Lucky Jim]

Hey Madison, Yes to your threefold RA.  I reached the same place.  Only problem was, it took me 16 years of marriage to my BPDxW to come to the realization that you arrived at in 3+ years!  I guess I'm a slow-learner!     LuckyJim