Havent logged in in awhile

[maxsterling]

I just needed to be away from all the BPD talk for a few days, take time to myself, and just think.  But I do thank all of you sincerely for all the advice and support I have been given.

Not really too much has changed, but no more violence (thank God).  I've reached out to services for male victims of domestic violence.  I'm hoping to find some kind of group therapy for that.  I keep these outreach activities from my wife, because frankly I am scared to death of her reaction should she find out.  I've also been reaching out more to the men in Alanon, and that has been literally a lifesaver.

I'm still having weird flashback and issues with the violent evening.  I feel a little uncomfortable when she is touching me, especially from behind.  I haven't felt sexual at all in weeks, my T and the information from others says that's a normal reaction after being involved in a traumatic event.  And I am not just talking about not feeling sexual towards my wife, I'm talking that any idea of sex just kinda feels bad to me - even when I see on TV or a movie.   So maybe TMI, but ED for sure. 

My garden is going great.  I spent one day outside all day over the weekend in 100 degree heat just working, and it felt great.  W was in a bad mood and didn't want me in the house anyway.   I've been working on learning to propagate plants I like, and growing veggies using the "three sisters" method.

[RELATIONSHIP PROBLEM SOLVING]

RELATIONSHIP PROBLEM SOLVING This is a high level discussion board for solving ongoing, day-to-day relationship conflicts. Members are welcomed to express frustration but must seek constructive solutions to problems. This is not a place for relationship "stay" or "leave" discussions. Please read the specific guidelines for this group.

[formflier]

 

Good to hear from you... .

All of what you talk about seems appropriate for the level of trauma that you have went through... .it's a process... .and you seem to be working hard at processing it.

Have you guys been to MC since the incident? 

Hang in there... .glad the garden is going well... .  I"m currently working on a horse trailer... .I like working on mechanical things... .it helps me think... .and gives me sense of accomplishment.

FF

[maxsterling]

Good to hear from you... .

All of what you talk about seems appropriate for the level of trauma that you have went through... .it's a process... .and you seem to be working hard at processing it.

Have you guys been to MC since the incident? 

Hang in there... .glad the garden is going well... .  I"m currently working on a horse trailer... .I like working on mechanical things... .it helps me think... .and gives me sense of accomplishment.

FF

yeah, one MC session.  15 minutes discussing W's activities and her taking care of herself.  30 minutes discussing baby/pregnancy/prenatal stuff while my head ran and could not ignore the big elephant in the room, and finally me getting really frustrtated and pointing out that we can't have a baby unless I can actually get an erection, and just let it loose right then and there about the difficulties I am having with flashbacks and trauma related stuff.   Another MC session tonight.   

Horse trailer sounds fun!  I put an ad up offering welding service in my neighborhood, and three takers in just a day.  I love welding, but am just a hobbyist and only own a welder to fix my vintage car and make junk art sculptures and household repairs.

[formflier]

Horse trailer sounds fun!  I put an ad up offering welding service in my neighborhood, and three takers in just a day.  I love welding, but am just a hobbyist and only own a welder to fix my vintage car and make junk art sculptures and household repairs.

I have daughters... .daughters love horses... .so... .I think I'll have this for a while.  4 horse slant load  (1995 model) with compartment in the front for tack.  Eventually... .it will all be painted an up to snuff.

I started out investigating the poor braking performance.  Well... .the first drum I pulled off... .resulted in rusty brake pieces falling on the ground... .so... .4 new backing plates with new self adjusting brakes should be here tomorrow.

Plenty of welding to do on this... .I'm a novice... .hobbyist... .

FF

[formflier]

 

Has there been a discussion about your wife's health (mental and physical) as it relates to having a baby?

Chances of MC, T and P (and maybe OB gyn) to get on same page and say... .present... .whatever... .here is a plan to get you to where you need to be to have a baby... .(in our professional opinion)... .

That way... .you are not the blame... .and it's not your idea... .

FF

[maxsterling]

Regarding baby - MC actually suggested last week that we start trying soon?  And this after she KNOWS that two weeks prior W attempted suicide?   I can't believe the irresponsibility of the MC.

Backing plates - HA!  The ones on my old ford wore grooves in them, and then would not adjust evenly.  I welded up the grooves, ground then flush, then a new hardware kit, and all is fine.  The trailer sounds like a fun project.  Arc or MIG welding is actually a lot easier than most people realize.  My biggest limitation is that I only have a 20 amp circuit to use, so I can only use a small welder.  Fine for most of what I want to do, but when one guy wanted me to fix his ditch witch, it was something that I couldn't do.

[ColdEthyl]

I'm glad to hear you are doing ok, Max. With the stress and trauma you are under, no wonder you don't feel very sexy, atm.   

[Notwendy]

Max - I am glad you are feeling better.

Something about your posts is confusing to me. You seem to be beating around the bush ( sorry for that imagery) about having a baby. Although you seem to have concerns about bringing a child into this world with the mental condition of your wife, you are doing and saying, anything but that.

Can't have a baby because of your sexual dysfunction? Well that can be addressed- so is your wife thinking that once that is addressed, then you will try for a baby?

Going to pre-fertility OB visits?

Talking about trying for a baby in MC, and the T suggests it. The way you are talking, and your wife is talking, and what you are doing- going to the OB gyn, you are not communicating that this isn't going to happen. In fact, what you are doing makes it seem that it is. Is the T being irresponsible or is she confused- because I am confused by your mixed signals.

I am also reading this with my own experience with dad. Mom would want something, dad would tell us how he feels ( doesn't want to do it) but he would not put his foot down with mom. It could be about anything: a new car, a vacation, a that he can't afford,  We'd see him getting anxious to us, worrying about money. We would plead with him " Dad just say NO" but he couldn't do it. What Momma wanted, Momma got, regardless of the price- emotionally or financially that dad paid.

Max, I am going to be very blunt here. Unless you do not wish to be a father, and are clearly going to say NO -and stick to that NO- no matter what she does, or the emotional price you are going to pay for that NO, I am not so certain that a baby isn't going to be in your future soon. You may want one too, but if not, I don't know if that message is clear.

[byfaith]

Hello Max,

Glad you are doing ok. I know I don't comment on your posts but I do read them and follow your situation. I feel for you. Glad you are finding a little peace. I was concerned about your well being also.

Best wishes for your situation

BF

[maxsterling]

You are absolutely right, Wendy.  I need the strength to say NO.  That's what I am working on now... .

[Wrongturn1]

Max: about having a baby with her, I strongly urge you not to do it until after she makes a full recovery (which might or might not happen, who knows?).  In her condition, she is not fit to be a mother to anyone.  Having a baby will not make her happy - it will make more stress in her life and more stress in your relationship.  She will likely psychologically damage any child she has and might be physically abusive to the child.  Plus, with her history of suicide attempts, there's a serious concern that she will make a successful attempt while the child is still living at home.  Research the impacts on children who lose a parent to suicide, and you'll see that it can cause lifelong psychological damage to the child for decades after the parent is gone.  :)on't do it!

[formflier]

You are absolutely right, Wendy.  I need the strength to say NO.  That's what I am working on now... .

I get the need to be able to say no... .everyone needs to be able to say no... .if that is how they feel.

Hmmm... .

Here is what I've been reading from Max's posts... .that he is not opposed to having a baby with his wife IF things improve and the professionals give the nod that it is appropriate (in other words... .she is making progress... .doing better)  Am I close?  This is why I had raised the other question about are all the professionals talking... .going to present joint treatment plan.

Max... .not trying to put words in your mouth... .but maybe it would be good to clarify what you have told you wife... .or clarify your position to us... .so that can be communicated to her.

FF

[maxsterling]

You are absolutely right, Wendy.  I need the strength to say NO.  That's what I am working on now... .

I get the need to be able to say no... .everyone needs to be able to say no... .if that is how they feel.

Hmmm... .

Here is what I've been reading from Max's posts... .that he is not opposed to having a baby with his wife IF things improve and the professionals give the nod that it is appropriate (in other words... .she is making progress... .doing better)  Am I close?  This is why I had raised the other question about are all the professionals talking... .going to present joint treatment plan.

Max... .not trying to put words in your mouth... .but maybe it would be good to clarify what you have told you wife... .or clarify your position to us... .so that can be communicated to her.

FF

That's pretty much the gist of it.  At least the way I have felt about it the past year or so.  But somehow the suicide attempt - I just feel so confused in my head right now.  I told my T yesterday that I think I need to personally let go of the idea of having a child, because if that was a strong goal of mine, I would pursue another relationship (a healthier mother).  I just don't think I have completely emotionally let go yet - but as I discussed with my T yesterday, the chances of my W making any kind of recovery are nil.   

The reality is, I got together with my wife and hung on this long in part because I am approaching 40 and feel this is my last chance to have a family.  I feel that if this r/s were to end, I would feel so damaged and not feel like dating seriously for a few years, and by that time I would be mid-40s... .  So, up until a few weeks ago my position was still - she gets a job or at least some kind of career direction, she gets emotionally stabilized (whether off meds or on safe meds), and she finds a T and a P she is comfortable working with, and I would be on board.  But the suicide attempt has forced me to re-think things, and I don't know what my new answer is yet.  Before she would mention or talk about suicide, and I would worry, communicate that with her, and she would assure me she would never, ever attempt suicide, that it is all talk, and she would never hurt me like that.   That promise is broken.  And I don't know where I stand anymore.

[Verbena]

Max, I'm glad to know you are ok.  

I agree with the others that having a baby with your wife would be a disaster--for everyone.  

As for your marriage counselor, suggesting you start trying to have a baby knowing your wife's mental illness and knowing she assaulted you recently and then tried to kill herself... .that is far beyond being irrresponsible.  It's insane is what it is.  

 

As I see it, the reality is this:  You can't tell your wife she is unfit to be a mother because she might physically attack you and then try to kill herself.  So you go along to get along in an effort to avoid more violence and trauma to yourself.

When you are strong enough to face her rage and possible violence, tell her NO.  If you have to have her arrested again and hospitalized again, then so be it.  I think you know that is where she needs to be anyway. 



 

[GaGrl]

It sounds as if you are truly moving toward radical acceptance, in that you are moving toward an understanding of what comes along with accepting the reality, long-term, of the PD's condition.

[formflier]

but as I discussed with my T yesterday, the chances of my W making any kind of recovery are nil.   

So... .where does this leave you?  How do you feel about this?

How did you guys arrive at this conclusion?

I see lots of introspection in you at the moment... .

I'm also projecting some of my own experience your way... .if it rings true... .let me know... .if not... .we can chat later about it.

Life altering trauma events stink to go through.  As you become less confused about things... .and start to process what happened... .I would expect that some parts of your life will appear simpler... .clearer... .less things will "matter" to you.  But those things that remain on the list as "mattering"... .will be more important.

Ultimately... .your life is about what matters to you... .figuring that out is an important process.

I'm seeing lots of talk with your T about your wife... .I'm also glad to see some talk about you and why you chose a r/s... .

Straight up advice:  Focus way more on you... .and processing what you have been through.

FF

[maxsterling]

So... .where does this leave you?  How do you feel about this?

Not sure.  Still digesting.  I love the woman, care about her, but I can't let that cloud what is best for me, or even best for her.

How did you guys arrive at this conclusion?

Time.   That I have been seeing this T for a year and a half, I've tried to make changes that I thought would result in positive change from her, she has gone back to T, two trips to the hospital, and yet she is still physically and verbally abusive.   How can one draw any other conclusion?  Is it like suddenly she may some day find the right T, the right med, or whatever the solution and I see a major change?  That would be like the parting of the red sea.  Small changes?  Sure.  Big ones?  Hell, you know how many times she has promised me she would never yell or scream at me again?  One time it wasn't 20 minutes after that promise and she was at it again.  So I need to think long and hard with clarity about whether the best case scenario is good enough - that being a slow change for the better, with many hiccups along the way.

I see lots of introspection in you at the moment... .

For sure.  I've been talking often with my alanon sponsor and alanon friends, taking many breaks at work to just walk around the building.  Just really trying to find peace and clarity.

I'm also projecting some of my own experience your way... .if it rings true... .let me know... .if not... .we can chat later about it.

Life altering trauma events stink to go through.  As you become less confused about things... .and start to process what happened... .I would expect that some parts of your life will appear simpler... .clearer... .less things will "matter" to you.  But those things that remain on the list as "mattering"... .will be more important.

Ultimately... .your life is about what matters to you... .figuring that out is an important process.

I'm seeing lots of talk with your T about your wife... .I'm also glad to see some talk about you and why you chose a r/s... .

Straight up advice:  Focus way more on you... .and processing what you have been through.

FF

Excellent advice.  Thank you.  And yes, you are right, I am trying to focus more on me.  And my feeling is that after this event nothing is going to feel the same.   Ever.  And that's the truth no matter the fate of the r/s.  I will probably always be a little less trusting.  Sex many never feel the same.  [/quote]

[formflier]

 And my feeling is that after this event nothing is going to feel the same.   Ever.  

It won't... .right now you may think that is a bad thing... .at some point you may think it is a good thing... .but... .the thing to understand is that it is a major life event... .that will eventually be woven into the tapestry of your life.  I think I have a good sense of you... .you seem comfortable working with a T and making changes based on that... .so... .I am certain that this event will eventually produce positive things in your life... .it will take time to be able to identify those things.

So... .more direct advice:  

You seem to have assembled a good group of professionals.  I'm not getting a sense if they are "playing nice" together or not.

I don't share your and your T's pessimism... .but there is a big caveat to my optimism.  That the assembled group of professionals (assembled due to your hard work) works as a group to help your wife.

and you get out of their way... .and let them do their thing

If your wife runs... .we know the future... .you will be ok.

If you wife at least plays along... .there is hope for the future and you will have to find some energy reserves to let time pass by... .to evaluate the progress.  This is possibly the hardest scenario... .because you are tired.

Don't shy away from this... .you have done the hard work... .you are about to find out what the future holds.

If your wife gets onboard with therapy (even a zigzaggy way)... .I think you can have a dramatically different (better life)

I suspect this is not new info... .but it's good to see it clearly... .

What is the next step towards your future?  

FF

[Cat Familiar]

Max,

I want to share my experience, which is much like notwendy's experience of being a child of a mother with BPD. In a nutshell, it is terribly frightening and unsettling for a child to have a mother who is unpredictable and unreliable. I became the "identified patient" in the family because my father was doing his best to support the family and he coddled my mother, just so that she wouldn't blow up and do something radical. So, rather than look at themselves or the relationship, they focused upon me. Normal kid problems became crises in my mother's mind and I learned to believe that there was something "wrong" with me.

I carried that belief until adulthood. Lots of psychotherapy helped, but it still crops up now and then when I'm stressed out. Fortunately I had the self-awareness, the financial resources and the will to change. Even so, it wasn't easy. Because of my family patterns, I gravitated toward mentally ill partners and married two men with BPD.

When I hear about functional families, I'm amazed that people actually have healthy, loving parents. I know my dad did the best he could under extremely trying circumstances. If he had had an emotionally healthy wife, my childhood would have been very different.

I wouldn't wish what I had experienced growing up upon any child and hence, I chose not to have children because I was afraid that I would either parent them the way I had been parented or do a 180. Either option would have been disastrous.

So, it makes my skin crawl when I read about you going to prenatal conferences with your wife after all you've posted about her. My feeling is that you would be doing a child no favors to bring it into the world with that woman as its mother. Sorry that this is so blunt, but I've lived that reality.

[SweetCharlotte]

Max,

For what it's worth, I believe that you should have a baby with your wife.

I believe that this is why both of you married, and that this is your project together.

Is it the perfect way to have a baby?

There is never a perfect way, just as there is never a perfect time.

There are two willing and interested parents.

One parent who can work to support the child.

Two parents who love each other and have love to share with a child.

She is not going to get better while you make her wait to get pregnant.

You married her, so don't make her "audition" to have your child.

The audition is over; she won the part.

Now it's time for you to play your part.

As someone who experienced a fair amount of instability before becoming a mother, I can say that having children was the best thing that ever happened to my mental health.

I became much more responsible; I never lost another job and indeed have had one promotion after another.

My oldest child is about to begin college at a top university. My youngest is a top student at her middle school and has qualified for an accelerated high school program.

Enough about me; this is about you and her, and your next step as a couple.

I think that you BOTH will make good parents.

[Verbena]

Sweet Charlotte, have you followed Max's posts?  You're entitled to your opinion, but I cannot imagine how you could say Max's wife would be a good parent.  Sorry, but your entire post shocks me. 

[Grey Kitty]

I'm glad you are hanging in there and finding some support and some things you like. That is huge for you.  

You were talking about small changes and big ones... .

Hell, you know how many times she has promised me she would never yell or scream at me again?

Think about them for yourself too, not just for her.

Saying NO to having a baby for yourself is a big change on your part.

A smaller one is consistently enforcing your own boundary about yelling and screaming. You can leave immediately when she does. Even if you need to ask the police to do a wellness check as soon as you get out the door.

If you don't stick around to be yelled at, that will change the dynamic. Can you do that?

[SweetCharlotte]

Sweet Charlotte, have you followed Max's posts?  You're entitled to your opinion, but I cannot imagine how you could say Max's wife would be a good parent.  Sorry, but your entire post shocks me. 

Yes; I was on the boards when Max began seeing her and I know what she is capable of at her worst. But I also know that Max married her knowing that she wanted a baby and that he wants one too. They don't have much time, and the more he makes her wait, the worse she will get.

My Mom was uBPD as I found out later in life and, although life with her was trying, I do feel that she did her best and was a good parent. I think that Mrs. Sterling has the potential to be a good parent too.

[maxsterling]

No baby talk in mc tonight.   Not sure why, but mc did not go there.   But the crux... .  after w went on her weekly rant about feeling lonely and abandoned by me (b/c i focus on me rather than her negative whining), mc assumed that we both came into the r/s with seperate hobbies, interests, and ways of entertaining ourselves.  I said yes, for sure, and that i now want to encorporate what w likes, too.  W says she didnt feel like an individual before and was always lonely and could not entertain herself.

[Haye]

Max, I'm also wondering about your MC. Does she have any idea of your wife's problems? Could she be totallyl fooled by her - we all know how convincing BPD's can be when it comes to playing the other person as the "faulty one". From what i've read earlier is that there are tons of issues, and stuff like suicide and domestic violence? I'm pretty shocked.

I also find the idea of having a baby now very unqustionable. perhaps once your wife is mentally (more) stable, but wow... .Pregnancy and post-natal hormones tend to shake up even the very sane persons and drive them into post partum blues or such, i wonder what happens to a persons who's already really unbalanced?  And well babies demand care 24/7. They need love and nurture, even when you are tired, even when you haven't slept a wink, or are sick, or feeling bad... .And I am not really sure your wife will be capable of that.

From what i've read of her behaviour... .She might just reject the child feeling him or her is "too demanding" and abandon her mentally, or even physically. I am afraid she might snap under the pressure and harm the child.

I have lived my childhood with a bi-polar mom (the type with psychotic traits), not BPD but very unbalanced and unpredictable nevertheless. My father, we think a demanding personality with BPD traits but that's unconfirmed. They were loving parents, actually, but a child needs a lot more than love. Stuff like stability, food, shelter... .Childhood with parents like them, it left a lot of scars i've been fixing most of my life.I've been told that the swifting between all sorts of moods and extremes is very damaging to a child.

[sweetheart]

Learning to say 'no,'

and that 'no' is a complete sentence, has been (apart from JADE and STOP!) one of the most important things I have taken away from this forum.

Remember it is the role of a T in MC to reflect back what she perceives is being communicated within the marriage. If there is abscence of concern about how you feel Max about having a baby at the moment, it is because you are not making it explicit, so the T does not identify it as needing to be addressed.

Maybe her continuous instability comes from your lack of clarity in an area that is so important to her.

If I was your w I would be confused by your actions rather than your words at the moment.

Gardening and me time is great, but does your w know that you do not want a baby with her at the moment, and that there are conditions to this going ahead?

Until you are clear with your wife, her emotionally instability will most likely continue.

I wonder if you remember back to your beginnings here when your wife was continuously dysregulating because you were waiting for her to be emotionally stable before committing to marrying her.

I see the same pattern repeating itself within your marriage at the moment - I wrote a reply to you about keeping your w in a double-bind situation then, do you think perhaps this is happening again ?

[Notwendy]

I am not going to tell you whether to have a baby or not. That is your choice.

All I can tell you is that if you do not want to have one, and you do not stand firm in your decision, I think it is highly likely that you will become a father.

I know it takes strength to say no- to this and to anything. I have seen the consequences of saying "No" to my mother. We saw these raging fits between her and my father, suicide threats, ruining his possessions. She abused us and she abused him. Like you Max, he was terrified of her scenes, and probably traumatized by her suicide threats/attempts. We were all terrified of her scenes and also of his getting agitated at us for possibly bringing one on if we didn't say yes to her. Not saying "No" would avert a scene, temporarily, but saying "Yes" enabled this behavior. It put her in complete control of our lives.

It was seeing this that gave me the incentive to take action on myself and my relationship. While we do have some issues, I also recognize the spectrum. We are at the milder end, compared to my mother, who is at the severe end of the spectrum. I believe that everyone here has to take our own individual circumstances into consideration- and severity of issues is part of that. However, although my father started out with a difficult situation, enabling made it more difficult. I didn't want to be an enabler and I was. That was scary to me.

Not saying No when he meant No, possibly averted a storm, but that was temporary from what we could see.

[GaGrl]

It's not the T's responsibility to "go there" regarding babies. If you and your wife aren't making it a topic that is a priority, the T may think you want or need a break from talking about it.

That being said, I'm surprised MC is spendthrift Nguyen time on hobbies so soon after a suicide attempt... .seems like there are more substantial topics lined up.

[Cat Familiar]

As someone who experienced a fair amount of instability before becoming a mother, I can say that having children was the best thing that ever happened to my mental health.

I became much more responsible; I never lost another job and indeed have had one promotion after another.

My oldest child is about to begin college at a top university. My youngest is a top student at her middle school and has qualified for an accelerated high school program.

I'm sorry, SweetCharlotte, but scholastic success has absolutely no correlation to psychological well-adjustment. I graduated at the top of my high school (#3 in a class of over 1000) and magna cum laude at a large university. Yet I had zero emotional intelligence.

My mother isolated me and used me as her security blanket and I had no good role models for how to be a kind and successful human being. I loved her dearly, but it was a form of child abuse.

Max certainly can make his own decisions about whether to bring a child into this world. My opinion, as a child of a mentally ill mother, is that it's important to consider the emotional well-being of a child who will be raised by a woman who has a history of violence, abuse and self-harm.

[formflier]

 

Well said Cat Familiar,


I'm definitely more comfortable in areas where "emotions" aren't as big a deal... .

I did well in school... .and have the ability to focus on task completion... .getting big things done.  Was able to lead large groups of people... .land a plane on an aircraft carrier... .

Yet... .connecting with others on an emotional level... .especially if I "disagree" with their emotions... .is something I'm working on right now.

FF