how to sum up BPD

[emergent]

I have a hard time getting people to understand the whole extent of what BPD is. I've talked to two (in person) friends about my BPD(ex)w recently, and both have come away with incomplete impressions of BPD. One seems to think the disorder is about fear of abandonment, and the other thinks it means chronic anger. Both times I talked, time was limited... .I am planning on talking more with these two people to clear it up (which could take hours and that's ok), but I wonder about you out there: how do you sum up BPD in a few words?

[fromheeltoheal]

Hey emergent-

The criteria for diagnosis of the disorder in the DSM is pretty good at listing the traits.

The core of the disorder is a fear of abandonment, because abandonment would mean a borderline would have to face the subsequent abandonment depression that follows, the stage of development they never successfully went through when young, the situation that created the disorder to begin with.

Lots of people here say folks in their lives just don't understand the disorder and what they're going through, which is why it's cool to talk about it here, we've all been there.  Do you know why it's important to you that the folks in your life understand?

[FannyB]

The more you love them, the faster they run away - whilst proclaiming you don't love them enough!

The proverbial enigma wrapped up in a riddle! 

[Overbeck]

When it comes to what it is like to break up with a Borderline, I often compared to living in Times Square in New York 24 hours a day, seven days a week. Then you snap your fingers and you're in the middle of the wheat field in Kansas. The change in pace and the lack of noise when you break up can be maddening.

Regarding how borderlines operate, I often compare them to mathematicians. Borderlines don't see the world the same way that most of us who use words see it. It is almost a different language. Like a species from a different planet.

[Sunfl0wer]

Hey emergent-

The criteria for diagnosis of the disorder in the DSM is pretty good at listing the traits.

The core of the disorder is a fear of abandonment, because abandonment would mean a borderline would have to face the subsequent abandonment depression that follows, the stage of development they never successfully went through when young, the situation that created the disorder to begin with.

Lots of people here say folks in their lives just don't understand the disorder and what they're going through, which is why it's cool to talk about it here, we've all been there.  :)o you know why it's important to you that the folks in your life understand?

Humm... .

I'm going to add to that.

I think it is a primary inability to self soothe.

Secondary/or as a result of lacking self soothing... .comes all the other traits... .

Abandonment fears

Self harm

Devaluation

... .looking for external means of soothing

However, where does that put black/white thinking?

There is an underlying cognitive processing that isn't working... .I imagine.  How does that relate to soothing?

Does a person with black/white thinking... .due to the cognitive skill they are missing... .not being able to mentally hold two separate truths in the mind at the same time... .then lend to the inability to self soothe... .as a natural result of missing that original cognitive process?

So then really it can all point back to some original cognitive process that is lacking/underdeveloped that helps people hold different truths about a situation in their mind, allowing them to coexist?  Maybe this leads to the rest? The rest are just displays of this lack of cognition issue?

In case that was confusing... .

I was not beginning by making a convincing argument, rather, thinking it out... .out loud.

[fromheeltoheal]

Hey emergent-

The criteria for diagnosis of the disorder in the DSM is pretty good at listing the traits.

The core of the disorder is a fear of abandonment, because abandonment would mean a borderline would have to face the subsequent abandonment depression that follows, the stage of development they never successfully went through when young, the situation that created the disorder to begin with.

Lots of people here say folks in their lives just don't understand the disorder and what they're going through, which is why it's cool to talk about it here, we've all been there.  :)o you know why it's important to you that the folks in your life understand?

Humm... .

I'm going to add to that.

I think it is a primary inability to self soothe.

Secondary/or as a result of lacking self soothing... .comes all the other traits... .

Abandonment fears

Self harm

Devaluation

... .looking for external means of soothing

However, where does that put black/white thinking?

There is an underlying cognitive processing that isn't working... .I imagine.  How does that relate to soothing?

Does a person with black/white thinking... .due to the cognitive skill they are missing... .not being able to mentally hold two separate truths in the mind at the same time... .then lend to the inability to self soothe... .as a natural result of missing that original cognitive process?

So then really it can all point back to some original cognitive process that is lacking/underdeveloped that helps people hold different truths about a situation in their mind, allowing them to coexist?  Maybe this leads to the rest? The rest are just displays of this lack of cognition issue?

In case that was confusing... .

I was not beginning by making a convincing argument, rather, thinking it out... .out loud.

Masterson's explanation is pretty helpful:

Before we are born and slightly thereafter, we cannot distinguish between ourselves and our mother; to us we're one person, not a stretch really since we are or just were inside her.  At some point as we explore our bodies, or mother and the world it becomes clear that there is a "me" and a "her", two separate entities, and the entity that is "mother" is there sometimes and sometimes not, so where does that leave us?  As a part of normal development a child realizes they are separate from their mother, they feel alone and abandoned, and they weather what's termed the "abandonment depression", a necessary step in developing a "self" of our own and becoming an autonomous individual.  A borderline never does that, for a variety of reasons, which sets up a lifetime pattern of banging up against that abandonment depression but never going through it, which is why abandonment and the fear of it are a constant focus, and attachments are everything to a borderline, a subconscious reestablishment of that bond with their mother when they were one person.  Also, when a borderline doesn't go through that abandonment depression further emotional development stops as well.

So the lack of ability to soothe emotions comes out of a lack of a fully formed self, and therefore unstable, there's no consistent ego to go back to, so the self interpreting events is always changing, and therefore so is the interpretation, impossible to keep up with.  How much would that suck?

Black and white thinking comes out of that stunted emotional development, just like a child; everything is either all good or all bad because the ability to see the gray of nuance and accept someone else as a whole are not developed.

Self harm is a way to soothe emotions, or at least make the physical pain great enough that the emotional pain seems less by comparison.  And devaluation is another attempt at soothing emotions, make another person all bad, black and white thinking, and also projection, off all the negative feelings about themselves onto someone else so a borderline doesn't have to feel them, so the other person needs to be the perpetual scumbag.

All of it coming out of the failure to detach and become a self, the need to attach to reestablish the bond to continue not becoming a self, and the fear of losing that attachment.

[Sunfl0wer]

Hey emergent-

The criteria for diagnosis of the disorder in the DSM is pretty good at listing the traits.

The core of the disorder is a fear of abandonment, because abandonment would mean a borderline would have to face the subsequent abandonment depression that follows, the stage of development they never successfully went through when young, the situation that created the disorder to begin with.

Lots of people here say folks in their lives just don't understand the disorder and what they're going through, which is why it's cool to talk about it here, we've all been there.  :)o you know why it's important to you that the folks in your life understand?

Humm... .

I'm going to add to that.

I think it is a primary inability to self soothe.

Secondary/or as a result of lacking self soothing... .comes all the other traits... .

Abandonment fears

Self harm

Devaluation

... .looking for external means of soothing

However, where does that put black/white thinking?

There is an underlying cognitive processing that isn't working... .I imagine.  How does that relate to soothing?

Does a person with black/white thinking... .due to the cognitive skill they are missing... .not being able to mentally hold two separate truths in the mind at the same time... .then lend to the inability to self soothe... .as a natural result of missing that original cognitive process?

So then really it can all point back to some original cognitive process that is lacking/underdeveloped that helps people hold different truths about a situation in their mind, allowing them to coexist?  Maybe this leads to the rest? The rest are just displays of this lack of cognition issue?

In case that was confusing... .

I was not beginning by making a convincing argument, rather, thinking it out... .out loud.

Masterson's explanation is pretty helpful:

Before we are born and slightly thereafter, we cannot distinguish between ourselves and our mother; to us we're one person, not a stretch really since we are or just were inside her.  At some point as we explore our bodies, or mother and the world it becomes clear that there is a "me" and a "her", two separate entities, and the entity that is "mother" is there sometimes and sometimes not, so where does that leave us?  As a part of normal development a child realizes they are separate from their mother, they feel alone and abandoned, and they weather what's termed the "abandonment depression", a necessary step in developing a "self" of our own and becoming an autonomous individual.  A borderline never does that, for a variety of reasons, which sets up a lifetime pattern of banging up against that abandonment depression but never going through it, which is why abandonment and the fear of it are a constant focus, and attachments are everything to a borderline, a subconscious reestablishment of that bond with their mother when they were one person.  Also, when a borderline doesn't go through that abandonment depression further emotional development stops as well.

So the lack of ability to soothe emotions comes out of a lack of a fully formed self, and therefore unstable, there's no consistent ego to go back to, so the self interpreting events is always changing, and therefore so is the interpretation, impossible to keep up with.  How much would that suck?

Black and white thinking comes out of that stunted emotional development, just like a child; everything is either all good or all bad because the ability to see the gray of nuance and accept someone else as a whole are not developed.

Self harm is a way to soothe emotions, or at least make the physical pain great enough that the emotional pain seems less by comparison.  And devaluation is another attempt at soothing emotions, make another person all bad, black and white thinking, and also projection, off all the negative feelings about themselves onto someone else so a borderline doesn't have to feel them, so the other person needs to be the perpetual scumbag.

All of it coming out of the failure to detach and become a self, the need to attach to reestablish the bond to continue not becoming a self, and the fear of losing that attachment.

thank you!

[Lucky Jim]

abandonment and the fear of it are a constant focus, and attachments are everything to a borderline, a subconscious reestablishment of that bond with their mother when they were one person.

The paradox for me is that a pwBPD frequently acts in ways designed to achieve the exact opposite result from what one might expect after reading the above summary.  They fear abandonment yet push the SO away with rage and abuse.  Attachments are everything but their hostile and belligerent behavior undermines that attachment.

So maybe FannyB is right to say that BPD is an enigma wrapped in a riddle.   

LuckyJim

[emergent]

Thank you all. This is a really helpful discussion for me.

Do you know why it's important to you that the folks in your life understand?

I have felt very alone for a long time. I am an expatriate in a country where good, true friends take decades to make (but once they're true friends, they stick). I have decided to leave BPD(ex)w after too many years of abuse, but I cannot for another few months at least because of some bureaucratic procedures surrounding an adoption. My family is mostly distant. A couple I know here is divorcing for totally unrelated reasons, and these are the two people I mentioned above, whom I have spoken to and listened to separately while staying neutral, because they are both wonderful people and as it turns out, very good friends. They need support, and I need support, and they want to understand, and I want them to understand.[/quote]
they weather what's termed the "abandonment depression", a necessary step in developing a "self" of our own and becoming an autonomous individual.  A borderline never does that, for a variety of reasons[/quote]
Do you know these reasons? I know BPDexw's mother was not an attachment-parenting type. Could it be that BPDexw was abandoned too brutally? That would surprise me far less. BPDexw has memories of being locked out of cottages, etc (but of course she remembers those things; she's got BPD).

[UserName69]

The more you love them, the faster they run away - whilst proclaiming you don't love them enough!

The proverbial enigma wrapped up in a riddle! 

Best answer on this board! Whenever I started to become serious with my exBPD she started to act weird. Becoming distant, doesn't want to see me etc. My exBPD accused me of having BPD. Couple days ago when I told her I'm going to send her all the presents she gave me, she became very hostile. It seems like they can't understand it because she had a lot of presents of her previous boyfriends. I can't see the point of that.

[LimboFL]

"When it comes to what it is like to break up with a Borderline, I often compared to living in Times Square in New York 24 hours a day, seven days a week. Then you snap your fingers and you're in the middle of the wheat field in Kansas. The change in pace and the lack of noise when you break up can be maddening.

Regarding how borderlines operate, I often compare them to mathematicians. Borderlines don't see the world the same way that most of us who use words see it. It is almost a different language. Like a species from a different planet."

Wow Overbeck, this is probably the most concise brief on the difference between being "in" and then "out" that I have ever read. Time Square to wheat field in a snap. Similar to what service people go through after coming home from a full blown war.  

I also love the mathematics comparison. A beautiful mind! Sadly, not so.

[fromheeltoheal]

abandonment and the fear of it are a constant focus, and attachments are everything to a borderline, a subconscious reestablishment of that bond with their mother when they were one person.

The paradox for me is that a pwBPD frequently acts in ways designed to achieve the exact opposite result from what one might expect after reading the above summary.  They fear abandonment yet push the SO away with rage and abuse.  Attachments are everything but their hostile and belligerent behavior undermines that attachment.

So maybe FannyB is right to say that BPD is an enigma wrapped in a riddle.  

Yes, that is a paradox LJ, and goes back to the lack of self.  Imagine a young kid who has just learned to walk; she plays a game of running away from her mother, screw you mom, I'm a big girl now, I'm off into the world, although if she gets too far away and loses sight of her mother she freaks out and runs back.  She runs away initially to break away from her mother, to eliminate being engulfed, losing her fledgling 'self' in her mother again, but when she gets too far she feels abandoned.  It's a game at first, but eventually she gets frustrated with the conflict and starts acting out, which we call the "terrible twos".

And normally we grow beyond that, but a borderline doesn't, so the opposing fears of engulfment and abandonment are still there, and flash forward to adult years and that's where the push/pull behavior comes from, which is a reaction to those subconscious feelings and isn't tempered by a developed 'self'.  And of course the push behavior drives people away, so the thing a borderline fears the most, abandonment, is brought on by their behavior, and they don't know why they do it.  Can you imagine what a living hell that would be?  And borderlines share that with us, as we can all attest.

[fromheeltoheal]

Do you know why it's important to you that the folks in your life understand?

I have felt very alone for a long time. I am an expatriate in a country where good, true friends take decades to make (but once they're true friends, they stick). I have decided to leave BPD(ex)w after too many years of abuse, but I cannot for another few months at least because of some bureaucratic procedures surrounding an adoption. My family is mostly distant. A couple I know here is divorcing for totally unrelated reasons, and these are the two people I mentioned above, whom I have spoken to and listened to separately while staying neutral, because they are both wonderful people and as it turns out, very good friends. They need support, and I need support, and they want to understand, and I want them to understand.

they weather what's termed the "abandonment depression", a necessary step in developing a "self" of our own and becoming an autonomous individual.  A borderline never does that, for a variety of reasons

Do you know these reasons? I know BPDexw's mother was not an attachment-parenting type. Could it be that BPDexw was abandoned too brutally? That would surprise me far less. BPDexw has memories of being locked out of cottages, etc (but of course she remembers those things; she's got BPD).

Well good for you for reaching out emergent, we're always here and we understand at least, and these kinds of conversations are great to have with people we're close to and trust.

The reasons could include abuse, neglect, a mother that won't let a kid detach for her own selfish reasons, or even more simply, a child who had a somewhat normal birth and upbringing but is hypersensitive, so their version of things is more intense and skewed, and of course there's always at least two sides to the story when humans are involved.

For those interested,

Search For The Real Self : Unmasking The Personality Disorders Of Our Age

by Masterson is a great book that is popular around here, and although it covers the genesis of BPD and NPD, it also discusses the development of a 'normal' self, the Real Self as he puts it, and it's a fascinating read in its own right.

[Lucky Jim]

And of course the push behavior drives people away, so the thing a borderline fears the most, abandonment, is brought on by their behavior, and they don't know why they do it.  Can you imagine what a living hell that would be?  And borderlines share that with us, as we can all attest.

You put that well, FromHtoH.  Your explanation is quite helpful, particularly the twin poles of engulfment and abandonment fears.  Your observation is the same as mine, that "the thing a borderline fears the most, abandonment, is brought on by their behavior."  It's a weird cycle, not to mention living hell, for the pwBPD, as you note.  Agree also that "they don't know why they do it," in other words they have no self-awareness, which is perhaps why they see no reason to change their behavior and generally refuse to take responsibility for their actions.  Sad situation for those w/BPD.

Thanks for your thoughtful comments.

LuckyJim

[fromheeltoheal]

Agree also that "they don't know why they do it," in other words they have no self-awareness, which is perhaps why they see no reason to change their behavior and generally refuse to take responsibility for their actions.  Sad situation for those w/BPD.

And even further than that, the disorder begins so early in a borderline's development that it gets hardwired into their personality, it's literally the way they're wired, the way they think, as it is with all of us, like the difference between Microsoft and Apple operating systems.  So no amount of self awareness would help, since there's nothing hidden to become aware of, rewiring can't be done, only tools learned that can temper the emotional fallout.

[emergent]

Agree also that "they don't know why they do it," in other words they have no self-awareness, which is perhaps why they see no reason to change their behavior and generally refuse to take responsibility for their actions.  Sad situation for those w/BPD.

And even further than that, the disorder begins so early in a borderline's development that it gets hardwired into their personality, it's literally the way they're wired, the way they think, as it is with all of us, like the difference between Microsoft and Apple operating systems.  So no amount of self awareness would help, since there's nothing hidden to become aware of, rewiring can't be done, only tools learned that can temper the emotional fallout.

Although I am leaving, I still hold on to some hope that my exBPD will get better. She started therapy last week (now that I am leaving, even though she said a million times that she would go to therapy when I was staying, she never did - I know this is typical). In the first session, her therapist managed to convince her (god knows I tried myself!) that she suffers from depression. Perhaps further diagnoses are on the horizon.

My hope is actually that she go on medication. I personally avoid chemical medication and am 100% on the naturopathy bandwagon, but like you say, this is not something the body/mind can get over without a major change imposed on it from the outside.

Please tell me antidepressants help... .or maybe there are anti-BPDs?

[fromheeltoheal]

Agree also that "they don't know why they do it," in other words they have no self-awareness, which is perhaps why they see no reason to change their behavior and generally refuse to take responsibility for their actions.  Sad situation for those w/BPD.

And even further than that, the disorder begins so early in a borderline's development that it gets hardwired into their personality, it's literally the way they're wired, the way they think, as it is with all of us, like the difference between Microsoft and Apple operating systems.  So no amount of self awareness would help, since there's nothing hidden to become aware of, rewiring can't be done, only tools learned that can temper the emotional fallout.

Although I am leaving, I still hold on to some hope that my exBPD will get better. She started therapy last week (now that I am leaving, even though she said a million times that she would go to therapy when I was staying, she never did - I know this is typical). In the first session, her therapist managed to convince her (god knows I tried myself!) that she suffers from depression. Perhaps further diagnoses are on the horizon.

My hope is actually that she go on medication. I personally avoid chemical medication and am 100% on the naturopathy bandwagon, but like you say, this is not something the body/mind can get over without a major change imposed on it from the outside.

Please tell me antidepressants help... .or maybe there are anti-BPDs?

Antidepressants can help with depression, for borderlines and everyone else, but there is no anti-BPD drug.  The difference is interesting: antidepressants work by altering brain chemistry to make seratonin and such more available and produce some 'feel good', depression is seen as a chemical imbalance, where BPD is a brain wiring issue, so no amount of chemical balance adjustment will 'cure' anything.  Antidepressants don't really 'cure' anything either and there are other ways to adjust brain chemistry; I'm with you, I stay away from pharmaceuticals and there's nothing a vigorous workout, some feisty rock n roll and a positive mental attitude can't fix, but many people are helped immensely with the right drugs and I'm not an expert.

BPD is like alcoholism in that there is no cure, just ways to deal with the symptoms.  For an alcoholic it's simple, don't drink, although the urge to drink is always there in various degrees and that needs to be dealt with to stay sober.  For borderlines, dialectical behavior therapy (DBT) is a specific type of cognitive-behavioral psychotherapy that was developed specifically for borderlines and has shown to be effective, although it takes a lot of time and commitment.  Cognitive behavioral therapy is very cool for all of us; I like it because instead of 'talk therapy' you actually take actions, do something, fits me better. 

My ex liked going to the doctor because it made her feel significant, important, she was the patient, the 'project', and she gobbled several psychotropic meds at different times; too many variables to know if they really helped and too many doctors to have any good control or guidance, just a trip down the rabbit hole of western medicine and it wasn't doing her any favors.  In my opinion diet, sleep, exercise, hydration and some DBT would have been far better, but she sure as hell wasn't listening to me at that point.

You clearly care about this girl emergent, and it's good that she went to therapy, even though it seems reactionary because you're leaving.  I can imagine she's feeling abandoned, the worst thing that can happen to a borderline, and I imagine she's in pain, both of you are, and that's sad, but the good news is maybe this will be the catalyst and she'll commit to long-term care, and whether or not you two end up together, hopefully it will help her and make her life better.