Borderline traits

[Trog]

For months there are days when I wonder about my own borderline traits. I had assumed I was not borderline because I can't just go off with anyone after a break up and I need a connection to be intimate but upon further reading seems many borderlines do self isolate, as I have.

One thing that I have always known about myself but didn't link to abandonment in the borderline sense is that whenever I have exploded with anger, generally I'm tame as a mouse but there is one thing that always makes me lose my rag, and that is feeling betrayed or uncared for by people who are supposed to love me. Which I guess is a type of abandonment and a fear that this person doesn't really care. Whenever I have had a major meltdown at my wife it is always, always, always triggered by real or perceived cruelty. I would react far more strongly to this than to insults for example.

Another trait is oscillating between love and hate within hours. It was always triggered by something she had done to upset me, likely something like above, and I'd feel intense hatred towards her. But making me feel valued again, I'd quickly forget it and go back to love. Though the loving feelings quickly got less intense the more often I was hurt by her.

Time-limited 'abandonment', her going for a week to her sisters at a time I felt was inappropriate for me was also a trigger for me. I didn't mind her going anywhere as long as it was not a time I was starting a new job or felt she should have been there for me. I saw it as selfish at the time. Even how we ended, when she was sectioned, I knew that yet again I'd be alone for at least a month and felt she had abandoned me. In my eyes all she needed to do was take her meds and she would not have been sectioned.

There's a theme here around abandonment, actual and emotional abandonment, and for sure these were the reasons I left the relationship. I should have left it for the myriad of other crazy behaviours, but for me, this was my pain. I thought because I am not promiscuous and very careful with other people's feelings (except when triggered in abandonment and then I'm angry and hurtful) that it could not be BPD.

Can you have abandonment issues and not be BPD?

[Hadlee]

What I've come to realize after my friendship with a pwBPD is that I also have abandonment issues.  I've actually been giving this quite a bit of thought today as I'm off work due to an injury.  And have been throwing a pretty big pity party for myself

I've dug deep into the pain where I believe my abandonment issues come from.  I haven't had a father in my life, he didn't stick around, and has never wanted a relationship with me.  He has his own family.  I don't even think his adult children know about me.  So... .lets just say that today has been a painful day!

With all the recent thoughts going on in my mind, I started to wonder if I actually have BPD too.  I ended up convincing myself that I must have it.  But... .I know I don't.  A few months ago I asked my T if I had it as I thought I was crazy and losing my mind.  She laughed and said, "crazy people don't ask if they are crazy, so no, you are not crazy."  

Anyway, in answer to your question, yes you can have abandonment issues without having BPD

[LimboFL]

Trog, we all have abandonment issues. No one wants to be discarded. This is isn't unique to pwBPD. The difference is that non's don't search for it and then strike preemptively without any proof. We don't purposely destroy what we love for fear that they will eventually leave us.

It is also completely normal to isolate. I have, to a degree. The ending of any relationship is hard but when it is with a pwBPD, the turmoil is visceral and one both wants to process but also not be out and about when dealing with such pain.

Your post was actually an eye opener for me because everything you said about being calm except when you feel that someone makes you feel betrayed or uncared for and I will add not appreciated for the sacrifices you have made. I could have written your post, all of it, every word.

I think what gets missed in many discussions is that many of us non's are the same, in many ways. As caretakers we are highly sensitive and caring, strong and introverted (the definition of introvert has thankfully evolved because I am quite comfortable in social situations etc. but need my space). Any person that fights to hold a relationship together as we did is someone who is very happy and content in a committed and long term relationship, which means we are not very interested in networking or being highly social.

For the many moons that I have spent on this site, I have not only been soothed to find people with similar BPD experiences but also by how similar many of us are. By this I do not mean that we are all co-dependent, but rather that unselfish, believers in love and compassion and so much more.

The difference, in my opinion, between us and pwBPD is in how we deal with all of the emotions we feel, how we rationalize and how we react. There were countless times, in my relationship, where I felt like I was being abandoned, but I didn't run and things eventually came back around (felt loved again). I believe that if I had stuck it out (after being tested with a replacement), that I might have been able to get her to come around again, but the replacement was simply not acceptable so I booked immediately. For as heartbreaking as it was, because I loved her deeply, it was the smartest thing that I could have done. I couldn't go through it anymore, no matter how much I was ready to be there for her. I miss so many things about her, especially those beautiful and tender moments, but I don't miss the rage, the one foot constantly out of the door, the orbiters, the criticism, everything that was opposite from me. I had my own flaws and issues but I was always there for her.

Everything we are going through is quite normal, after having been through a storm that was anything but.

[fromheeltoheal]

Can you have abandonment issues and not be BPD?

Of course.  The traits of the disorder are on a continuum and we all exhibit some of them at least some of the time, but an exaggerated focus on abandonment and the fear of it are at the core of the disorder.

Humans are social animals, born to connect.  We all have the need to feel significant, unique in some way, as well as the need for love and connection, two opposing needs in conflict, the need to be separate and the need to be together, standard human.  And taken to the extreme those become the fear of engulfment and the fear of abandonment; it's up to us to decide if they're getting in the way of our lives or are just part of what it is to be human.

[BorisAcusio]

For months there are days when I wonder about my own borderline traits. I had assumed I was not borderline because I can't just go off with anyone after a break up and I need a connection to be intimate but upon further reading seems many borderlines do self isolate, as I have.

It depends on whether you exihibit these behaviours as a lifelong pattern, and still it could be subclinical.

All Cluster B sufferers do isolate themselves, it's a schizoid-like detachment from ordinary reality, called the Detached Protector mode in Schema Therapy. As a vulnerable narcissist, that is my way of dealing with painful feelings. When Borderlines retreat and isolate themselves without new attachment for a prolonged period of time, schizoid traits may evolve, that is Lawson's Hermit character type.

Can you have abandonment issues and not be BPD?

Sure, it's not exclusive to borderline PD. Codependents are also afraid of rejection and abandonment. Most of us come here with some traits of DPD, NPD, even Aspergers. Sublclinical or not, these issues need to be addressed. According to a study, 55 percent of the romantic partners of borderline individuals are themselves met the criteria for an Axis II PD, which is quite staggering.

I was the little Saint, the golden child, scanning the environment and being hyper vigilant of everyone's emotions, I did that to survive, for her, she was a total ass and arrogant to survive - same busted childhoods, two different reactions.

Very wise thoughts, Trog.

Codependents need other people to like them to feel okay about themselves. People-pleasing and care-taking can be used to control and manipulate without even noticing it.

Borderlines need other people to feel good about themselves , their part time selves looking for the good in another person to become whole and then fearing the withdrawal of that good.

Vulnerable narcissists need other people to support and mirror their strong opinions about themselves.

The main difference lies in the ability to internalize value systems, codependents are not destructive because of their well integrated moral frameworks, and the degree of self-awareness.

[Trog]

Trog, we all have abandonment issues. No one wants to be discarded. This is isn't unique to pwBPD. The difference is that non's don't search for it and then strike preemptively without any proof. We don't purposely destroy what we love for fear that they will eventually leave us.

It is also completely normal to isolate. I have, to a degree. The ending of any relationship is hard but when it is with a pwBPD, the turmoil is visceral and one both wants to process but also not be out and about when dealing with such pain.

Your post was actually an eye opener for me because everything you said about being calm except when you feel that someone makes you feel betrayed or uncared for and I will add not appreciated for the sacrifices you have made. I could have written your post, all of it, every word.

I think what gets missed in many discussions is that many of us non's are the same, in many ways. As caretakers we are highly sensitive and caring, strong and introverted (the definition of introvert has thankfully evolved because I am quite comfortable in social situations etc. but need my space). Any person that fights to hold a relationship together as we did is someone who is very happy and content in a committed and long term relationship, which means we are not very interested in networking or being highly social.

For the many moons that I have spent on this site, I have not only been soothed to find people with similar BPD experiences but also by how similar many of us are. By this I do not mean that we are all co-dependent, but rather that unselfish, believers in love and compassion and so much more.

The difference, in my opinion, between us and pwBPD is in how we deal with all of the emotions we feel, how we rationalize and how we react. There were countless times, in my relationship, where I felt like I was being abandoned, but I didn't run and things eventually came back around (felt loved again). I believe that if I had stuck it out (after being tested with a replacement), that I might have been able to get her to come around again, but the replacement was simply not acceptable so I booked immediately. For as heartbreaking as it was, because I loved her deeply, it was the smartest thing that I could have done. I couldn't go through it anymore, no matter how much I was ready to be there for her. I miss so many things about her, especially those beautiful and tender moments, but I don't miss the rage, the one foot constantly out of the door, the orbiters, the criticism, everything that was opposite from me. I had my own flaws and issues but I was always there for her.

Everything we are going through is quite normal, after having been through a storm that was anything but.

Well. I never searched for the abandonment, I did overhear her telling her sister once that she was thinking of leaving me, this was a week into a psychosis of hers and I was furious. Mostly furious because I'd been looking after her through this psychosis with home visits and looking after her needs (though later she accused me of not taking care of her... .of course). Hearing that made me even more furious and redoubled my commitment to leave her. But I never sought out reasons, she would go thru my mails for example I didn't do that.

I do not abandonment and lack of care when directly confronted with it, and I don't like it ... .A lot!

[Trog]

For months there are days when I wonder about my own borderline traits. I had assumed I was not borderline because I can't just go off with anyone after a break up and I need a connection to be intimate but upon further reading seems many borderlines do self isolate, as I have.

It depends on whether you exihibit these behaviours as a lifelong pattern, and still it could be subclinical.

All Cluster B sufferers do isolate themselves, it's a schizoid-like detachment from ordinary reality, called the Detached Protector mode in Schema Therapy. As a vulnerable narcissist, that is my way of dealing with painful feelings. When Borderlines retreat and isolate themselves without new attachment for a prolonged period of time, schizoid traits may evolve, that is Lawson's Hermit character type.

Can you have abandonment issues and not be BPD?

Sure, it's not exclusive to borderline PD. Codependents are also afraid of rejection and abandonment. Most of us come here with some traits of DPD, NPD, even Aspergers. Sublclinical or not, these issues need to be addressed. According to a study, 55 percent of the romantic partners of borderline individuals are themselves met the criteria for an Axis II PD, which is quite staggering.

I was the little Saint, the golden child, scanning the environment and being hyper vigilant of everyone's emotions, I did that to survive, for her, she was a total ass and arrogant to survive - same busted childhoods, two different reactions.

Very wise thoughts, Trog.

Codependents need other people to like them to feel okay about themselves. People-pleasing and care-taking can be used to control and manipulate without even noticing it.

Borderlines need other people to feel good about themselves , their part time selves looking for the good in another person to become whole and then fearing the withdrawal of that good.

Vulnerable narcissists need other people to support and mirror their strong opinions about themselves.

The main difference lies in the ability to internalize value systems, codependents are not destructive because of their well integrated moral frameworks, and the degree of self-awareness.

Which would bring me back round to codependency. I am pleased infact to understand I have deep rooted problems because I fear just going round and round in circles in my love life and picking another person who hurts me.

[FannyB]

Trog

It's interesting what we find out about ourselves whilst researching the behaviour of others. I've concluded that I displayed significant cluster B traits around 20 years ago: Chaotic relationships, anger outbursts, excessive risk taking, need for stimulation as found it difficult to relax.  Advancing age and fatherhood seem to have drawn my sting somewhat! I think I'm pretty comfortable with myself now - but others may disagree! 

[fromheeltoheal]

Which would bring me back round to codependency. I am pleased infact to understand I have deep rooted problems because I fear just going round and round in circles in my love life and picking another person who hurts me.

I may have some codependent traits too, or maybe it's just insecurity, needing to go that extra mile to keep her, because I don't think I'm good enough the way I am.  What works lately, cures all of that, is to just get really frickin selfish, focus on being selfish, and if she's not going to help me believe I'm man enough for her, she doesn't get the benefit of my company and needs to get out of my life, today.  Selfishness makes everything better.

[dobie]

My own abandonment issues lay in my inability to really engage emotionally fully with any partner ... .Even when I have built up trust there is always part of me that is reserved and standoffish which was perfect for me with my BPDx because when she idealized me I could bathe in the NARC power and feelings of being wanted without having to reciprocate . It was only when she started to withdraw and threaten to leave I then became more engaged trying to prove my worth which pushed her further away

A dysfunctional dance indeed , so in short yes one can have a fear / aversion to abandonment and display in an unhealthy way without being BPD

[LimboFL]

Forgive me, everyone, but I am about to bark a little.

It is possible that some might need to ascribe certain conditions to ourselves in order to make sense of what we put up with but ultimately, the bottom line is that we loved our exBPD partners. There really isn't that much more to it. What is love and partnership, if it isn't dependence? I mean, while I am spiritual not religious, when we marry, the words we are asked to speak are, til death do us part, in sickness and in health, no? Where in those lines does it say, if you hold onto your loved one and endure hardship because they are not well, then you are a co-dependent, weak fool who needs to have his/her head examined?

Did we realize at the time that our partners weren't capable of reciprocating? No, so we just kept loving them and some of us still do, including myself (despite the angry words I say daily to continue to push further and further away).

Does this mean that if I see red flags the next time, that I am not going to avoid it, no, because I will but now I have the knowledge necessary to do so before I fall in love. With my exBPD, it was too late, so I fell in love with her. Not the idealized version or because I was idealized, but with the people we saw when the seas were calm. This the person I felt was my partner but because of the disorder she had all of these other side characters that continuously kept screwing things up.

Falling in love with and staying in love with someone is not co-dependence, neither does fear of losing the person you are in love with make abandonment fear something we should consider as a flaw. It is natural to not want to lose the person you love and completely natural to mourn the fact that we simply did not have the tools needed to isolate the individual that we fell in love with, from the rest of the characters in their heads. Anger and frustration arise.

There is no doubt that every person on this planet has baggage and either had our brush with PD's in ourselves, or sadly some who live with it every day, but love is love. This belief that love is only possible or when two people feel comfortable leaving each other is utter BS. That isn't love, that's existing in the world with someone else, nothing more.

Sorry, barking over.

[fromheeltoheal]

Nice bark Limbo!

To dig a little, there's a difference between dependence, interdependence and codependence.  Codependence includes putting someone else's needs ahead of your own, maybe to the extent of complete exclusion of your own needs, and even further, gaining an identity as a caretaker and a sense of self worth from that role.

So who went there?  Ideally we go into relationships with the intent to give, and after giving and giving, eventually we're going to ask where's mine?  It became clear to me that my ex was going to be a project, all take no give, or the 'giving' was done transparently to manipulate, and I felt myself falling a little bit into acceptance of the role or perpetual giver, support system for the needy, and gaining backhanded value and worth from that, and it made me cringe.  That was good news, but I saw the opening and what it could have looked like, and that was just not me.  Now some healthy interdependence?  Sign me up, but it would never happen with her.

[LimboFL]

I completely see your point Heel. There is no question that I too was getting exhausted by the constant give while only crumbs were offered in return. I also don't miss a lot of the devaluation and criticism. Truth is I would likely have continued to deal with it, because while by no means healthy, I was learning to water of a ducks back on almost all of it. It was actually quite freeing. It only took the better part of 4 years to get to that point. What I couldn't take was the hunt and eventual find of the replacement, right under my nose. That was the last straw.

My point isn't so much to say that what we put up with was the right thing to do but more so to cut ourselves a little bit of slack, to appreciate that the heart is a very powerful organ that not only made us fall in love with our partners but also added a huge dose of empathy into the mix. We fought all of our natural instincts because we refused to be the ones who did do what our exBPD's feared most, which was to abandon them. Unfortunately though, they did everything possible to force our hands, which almost seems like their intention was to give them the opportunity to say "you see!, he/she left me".

I very much appreciate the concept of co-dependence but wonder if this wasn't simply how we ended up, rather than what we were when we walked into our relationships.

Now that I am emotionally out of the hardest part, I see all of the red flags, get angry that I put up with so many things that I did and, despite my continued love for her (that person under all of the mess), would never ever subject myself to that kind of psychological abuse etc., I also believe that my mental state was a direct result of the relationship and not, at least to that degree, something I carried with me into it. This is not denial. Most, if not all of us, have been in healthy relationships before. It would stand to reason that, if we had these traits such as co-dependence, would these not have been present in those "non" relationships too?    

[EaglesJuju]

Many abandonment fears are related to attachments. Depending on what  attachment style you have, there is a good possibility that you have abandonment fears.

Attachment patterns can be divided into attachment anxiety and attachment avoidance. Attachment anxiety is fears of separation and abandonment.  Attachment avoidance is discomfort with dependency and intimacy.

Low attachment anxiety/avoidance are secure attachments. High attachment anxiety and avoidance are fearful attachments. High attachment anxiety and low avoidance are preoccupied or anxious-ambivalent attachments. Low attachment anxiety and high avoidance are dismissing attachment.

I am diagnosed with DPD and have abandonment fears/separation anxiety. I have a preoccupied attachment style. How I react to abandonment differs greatly from a pwBPD.

There is a relation between attachment styles and BPD, but insecure attachments can be found amongst non-disordered people.

[fromheeltoheal]

Most, if not all of us, have been in healthy relationships before. It would stand to reason that, if we had these traits such as co-dependence, would these not have been present in those "non" relationships too?   

Maybe, to an extent.  Healthy people in healthy relationships want an equal partner, and someone who is clingy and trying to fall into a caretaker role, which can be a one-down position, but can also be a one-up position as in the caretaker is in control, that person is going to turn the healthy one off.  Then again, weak, strong, dependent, interdependent, control, these issues come up in all relationships, and the key to the best ones is the partners communicate and work through it, continuously redefining what a functional, empowering relationship looks like, and catch it when the dynamic gets dysfunctional and disempowering.  Complex, us humans.

Eagles:

There is a relation between attachment styles and BPD, but insecure attachments can be found amongst non-disordered people.

Yes, it's said 60% of folks have a secure attachment style, 20% have an anxious one, and 20% have an avoidant one.  One of the main take-away points for me in attachment style theory is that none of them are 'bad' or 'wrong', they just are.  Also, I have an anxious style, and folks with avoidant styles are Kryptonite for me, but that still leaves 80% of the population, and not only that, the styles are plastic, not totally fixed, and an anxious person getting together with a secure one can make the anxious one more secure.  Oh this is awesome news!  It's a brand new world... .

[LimboFL]

"Then again, weak, strong, dependent, interdependent, control, these issues come up in all relationships, and the key to the best ones is the partners communicate and work through it, continuously redefining what a functional, empowering relationship looks like, and catch it when the dynamic gets dysfunctional and disempowering.  Complex, us humans."

Totally agree and it is critical to also appreciate that over the course of a sustained time frame, people often change positions from the one in need to the one offering support. This is what a real relationship is about, the concept that when one partner is down, the other supports and vice versa, which as you say requires a partnership where first the couple feels that they can trust the other (that selflessness within reason is a given), should they fall and that both have a somewhat equal contribution on the emotional front.

To be honest, it all seems like a lot of work. ! I miss having someone to love and to hold at night, but it is kind of easier to only have to answer to yourself. Why can't it just be bloody easy? =)

[fromheeltoheal]

Why can't it just be bloody easy?

The right relationship is easy, effortless in fact, in its best moments, but even when it takes some work, it's the best work.

I choose to believe there were a few things I needed to learn, boy did I, and a borderline came into my life when I needed her to; the teacher appears when the student is ready, and teachers come in unique packages sometimes.  All of that was necessary to get me to a place where a great relationship is not only possible but likely.  My story, stickin' to it... .

[jhkbuzz]

Most, if not all of us, have been in healthy relationships before. It would stand to reason that, if we had these traits such as co-dependence, would these not have been present in those "non" relationships too?   

Maybe, to an extent.  Healthy people in healthy relationships want an equal partner, and someone who is clingy and trying to fall into a caretaker role, which can be a one-down position, but can also be a one-up position as in the caretaker is in control, that person is going to turn the healthy one off.  Then again, weak, strong, dependent, interdependent, control, these issues come up in all relationships, and the key to the best ones is the partners communicate and work through it, continuously redefining what a functional, empowering relationship looks like, and catch it when the dynamic gets dysfunctional and disempowering.  Complex, us humans.

for me in attachment style theory is that none of them are 'bad' or 'wrong', they just are.  Also, I have an anxious style, and folks with avoidant styles are Kryptonite for me, but that still leaves 80% of the population, and not only that, the styles are plastic, not totally fixed, and an anxious person getting together with a secure one can make the anxious one more secure.  Oh this is awesome news!  It's a brand new world... .

Just my two cents:  I remember doing a sort of "checklist" in the first month that I met my ex - I didn't want anyone overly clingy and needy or who didn't have their life reasonably "together" in a pragmatic sort of way. The super clingy/needy/dependent behavior came out full force after we moved in together - and by then we were committed and there was a child in the mix.

You're right - every r/s has to work out the power dynamic; it seems to be part and parcel of every r/s. I can speak for myself and say that it's hard to figure out what to do when you're deep into the r/s and you partner morphs into a child-like personality who is incredibly needy and wounded - and who appears to have a vested interest in giving you all their power. It was an incredibly confusing and stressful time for me - I wish I had understood what was happening when I was "in" it.

As for the OP:  human beings are emotional and social creatures. Dislike of abandonment, anger... .all normal human emotions. Be careful not to over analyze.

[enlighten me]

I like most here have had a good look at myself and certainly have co dependant traits. Im also an introvert so enjoy me time which could be interpreted as hiding away.

One thing about co dependancy is how much society makes us feel we should do it. Selfless acts of sacrifice are rammed down our throats. I once went without food to make sure my family didnt go without. Is that co dependant? What bothers me is that I cant work out whether FOO , hollywood or religeon is to blame.

[UserName69]

The only reason why I always gave it a chance is she blamed everything on me. I didn't knew anything about BPD. If I had known about BPD I would have dumped her immediately.