my dillema for tonight

[Depression = 72% of members]

Max, I commend you for speaking the truth to others and reaching out for help. This is a huge step. Denial is thick. When things are good in the r/s, we can tend to slip back into thinking "well they are not so bad".

Regardless of what decision you arrive at, telling the truth, asking for help, is a first step to not lying to yourself and others about your situation.

I echo Notwendy's sentiments. For years I kept my domestic violence victimhood a secret. I was ashamed. However, when at last I no longer cared about protecting him and our "shameful secret," things changed and I found my power again.

[Cat Familiar]

Max, I commend you for speaking the truth to others and reaching out for help. This is a huge step. Denial is thick. When things are good in the r/s, we can tend to slip back into thinking "well they are not so bad".

Regardless of what decision you arrive at, telling the truth, asking for help, is a first step to not lying to yourself and others about your situation.

I echo Notwendy's sentiments. For years I kept my domestic violence victimhood a secret. I was ashamed. However, when at last I no longer cared about protecting him and our "shameful secret," things changed and I found my power again.

[RELATIONSHIP PROBLEM SOLVING]

RELATIONSHIP PROBLEM SOLVING This is a high level discussion board for solving ongoing, day-to-day relationship conflicts. Members are welcomed to express frustration but must seek constructive solutions to problems. This is not a place for relationship "stay" or "leave" discussions. Please read the specific guidelines for this group.

[Verbena]

Max, you say that you feel there is a 90 percent chance your wife will physically assault you again within a month now that you've agreed to let her stay in the house and you plan to return home in a couple of days.  I hope this doesn't happen, but I agree that the chance is very high that she will even with her knowing you have an Order of Protection against her that you could serve if that happens. 

I only started following your story a few months ago, but after the last assault I went back and read some of your posts from almost two years ago.  The physical abuse dates back to then from what I read.  The verbal abuse has been constant. 

My point is that your wife has never had any real consequences to her behavior.  She still gets to live in your house, contribute virtually nothing to the household, scream at you and call you names, and hit you.  And then blame you for it all. 

Do you believe she is capable, given her extreme BPD, to NOT verbally and physically abuse you? 

[formflier]

 

Max,

Does your wife know that you have this?... .the OOP

FF

[KateCat]

Max,

Does your wife know that you have this?... .the OOP

FF

I wonder about this too, and also about what going back into the home will look like. For instance, will you have a lock installed on your bedroom door before sleeping there? The fact that you've been hit in the back of the head now is scary, and I wonder if any of the DV professionals would feel it's safe to turn your back on your wife at this time.

Can one of the advocates advise you on this before you return home?

[Notwendy]

I vote for the lock on the door.

IMHO, I don't think she will physically harm you. She has a fear of abandonment. Hurting you won't stop you from serving her or leaving you, however, one thing, that I already mentioned, can make an OOP impossible.


I am not kidding about this. Lock the door or you might have an interesting dream that isn't a dream.

[Cat Familiar]

Notwendy, I respectfully disagree about Mrs. Sterling's potential for assaulting Max. She has crossed that boundary already, many times.

My experience with domestic violence leads me to believe that once uncontrolled rage has worn a neural pathway through expressed physical violence, that it is likely to occur again, and become a faster response to anger and frustration.

[formflier]

My experience with domestic violence leads me to believe that once uncontrolled rage has worn a neural pathway through expressed physical violence, that it is likely to occur again, and become a faster response to anger and frustration.

I... .unfortunately have the same "professional" experience.  For a while I was a "family advocacy program" officer in the Navy.  Collateral duty to keep up with families of Sailors that were having issues.  DV was prevalent.  It usually got worse.

Not always... .but... ."more often than not".  The times that I remember it getting better... .there was an obvious effort made by both parties to listen to professionals.  I did not know about BPD then.  Looking back... .I don't if any of the cases it was a factor or not.

Critical that both parties be involved in treatment because there is a r/s dynamic that is intertwined in most stories.

Max,

I hope these ideas give you items to think clearly and thoroughly about.  If you go back in the home... .I also vote for the lock... .don't toss it in her face... .but also don't hide it.  DV is a fact of life in your r/s that both parties need to deal with.

Hang tough man!  You have been through the wringer... .keep strong... .and keep talking to you support network!

FF

[Notwendy]

Cat, I understand, and don't want to negate the possibility of physical abuse.

I speak from observing my parents. It was a cycle. My mother had similar rages where she would break things in the home, scream at my father, and yes, the suicide attempts too. She would push dad to the point where Max is now, considering leaving but once she got the idea he might leave, she would become very remorseful, sweet, nice, and seductive. She would mean this. There is a wonderful sweet side to her, and this is what we loved about her. When "good mommy" was there it was amazing. The remorse is real, and she feels shame over the rages too. However, this didn't negate that they happened.

She also becomes pitiful and waify during these times. She also goes through the cycle with me too, minus the seduction. That doesn't work. But the pitiful side to her is just heartbreaking. It would make us feel like heels to think of leaving her.

Once we are back in the regular rhythm of the relationship, things go along for a while, until again she would blow up and go into rage and anger.

I also observe this cycle on a smaller scale with my H without the physical abuse but with pounding on tables and once a hole in the wall. Then, a period of remorse, followed by calm, then rage.

So Cat, I agree with you, the potential is there - always- for physical harm. However, the abuse cycle is such that afterwards there can be a period of remorse, a promise to be good, and that is where the partner is lulled back into the relationship.

So I was suggesting that if Max's wife had already raged and was feeling remorseful, and also fearing that she had gone too far... .and knowing that she wants a baby, that he could feel a sense of safety and also be vulnerable to seduction. But the cycle goes around and the potential for physical harm is there.  

I was considering that remorse would come before abuse again, but really, anything can happen and Max needs to be protecting himself from all of it. I guess it would be better to have said to consider that physical harm might not be the next step... .  but if it happened, it is most certainly likely to happen at any point.

[Cat Familiar]

Notwendy,

I too experienced the remorse/honeymoon cycles and that's what kept me in the relationship for years. I kept believing him that he would never again... ., but my faith was misplaced. Denial is a powerful thing.

That said, I don't hear any evidence that Mrs. Sterling has been remorseful. It seems she briefly apologizes then blames Max.

Physical abuse is a whole other experience than self-harm or suicide threats. It seems there's something very animalistic when boundaries are lowered and a person will attack a loved one. Actually, I don't want to disparage animals because unprovoked violence seems to be more of a human trait.

[waverider]

If your are 90% sure of a reoccurence I think there are three possibilities that may be holding you back

The logistics of having her out of your house. Would you be the same if all you had to do was walk out of hers?

The need to know that you had turned every stone to ensure there was no magic fix hidden under it.

The need for her to action a final straw, so that you feel less responsible for the call.

If you can focus on what is holding you back you may be able to better choose, otherwise it will stay the same until a you are pushed into a knee jerk action

[Verbena]

Max, this statement from Waverider got my attention:

The need for her to action a final straw, so that you feel less responsible for the call.

In looking back to some very old posts from about two years ago, a statement jumped out at me.  You wrote (I'm paraphrasing), " I almost wish she would hit me one more time and that could be my justification for ending this relationship." 

I'm not trying to make you feel worse, Max.  I just see a cycle that doesn't seem to end. 

[maxsterling]

Wow.  Thanks for all the input, everyone. 

I had actually a good day today.  Wife was out of the house, I was home most of the day, and now I am back at my safe house doing something I never get to do at home - drink a bunch of beer.

Wife has mostly been on good behavior in regard to phone and text messages today.  I thought of something - if she actually does reach out to others (friends or legal counsel) and is honest - those people will tell her that her actions have been unlawful and abusive.  And from the looks of things, it seems she hasn't been home much - probably spending a lot of time out at 12-step meetings and such. 

As for my safety going home - yes, locking the door at night is a definite.  At least for a few days I will try to avoid her as much as possible.  She has BPD and lacks executive control - that's why I say another outburst is almost guaranteed.  But I think she will be on good behavior for at least awhile - for the reason I mentioned above.  Deep down she knows she is way in the wrong here, and that I could legally have her removed from the home. 

[maxsterling]

If your are 90% sure of a reoccurence I think there are three possibilities that may be holding you back

The logistics of having her out of your house. Would you be the same if all you had to do was walk out of hers?

The need to know that you had turned every stone to ensure there was no magic fix hidden under it.

The need for her to action a final straw, so that you feel less responsible for the call.

If you can focus on what is holding you back you may be able to better choose, otherwise it will stay the same until a you are pushed into a knee jerk action

There's that last thread - not so much the hopes that she will somehow fix herself (I've long since known that I cannot in any way fix her), but the hopes that there is some other exit other than the forceful legal way.  She spet the afternoon looking for jobs.   REAL jobs.  I think that indicates SHE wants more options because she knows deep down she is a walking a fine line here. 

[maxsterling]

A clarification here:  She *acts* like she fears me right now.  She's said as much, and acted accordingly.  Considering that I am about the least aggressive person most people have ever met (even my wife says I am not aggressive enough), she acts like she fears that I have control. 

The only way this makes sense is if she somehow knows that her actions have crossed the line, and in reality I could put her out on the street. 

[KateCat]

Would this be a good time to ask her if she'd like to go in-patient as an alternative?

[GaGrl]

A clarification here:  She *acts* like she fears me right now.  She's said as much, and acted accordingly.  Considering that I am about the least aggressive person most people have ever met (even my wife says I am not aggressive enough), she acts like she fears that I have control. 

The only way this makes sense is if she somehow knows that her actions have crossed the line, and in reality I could put her out on the street. 

The other interpretation is that she is setting herself, and you, up so that she can play the Waif and victim. Be very, very careful. She could attempt to maneuver you into a situation in which she flips and counter-claims DV. You are so NOT out of the woods yet.

[KateCat]

You are so NOT out of the woods yet.

I fear that the recent actions you've taken (and bravo for these!) put you at greater risk in your home now.

[SweetCharlotte]

Chiming in with my outlier opinion again . . .

I don't think that Max is going to leave her in any definitive or meaningful way.

In order for Mrs. Sterling to calm down somewhat, she needs that crucial ingredient that has been on her mind ever since she and Max got together:

a pregnancy/baby.

She is in a double bind and will only get worse if she and Max are not trying for a baby soon.

She will not be able to behave herself for long unless they are actively working on this goal, which Max has wanted as well.

I don't wish to discount Max's distress over her recent blow-ups, suicide attempt, and attacks on him.

However, in the context of her typical behavior, these are her responses to the stress of being married and not trying to get pregnant, while the months tick away.

Each cycle could be her last fertile time; there is no way of knowing.

If Max were really in danger from her, the police would have told him to abandon the premises on the spot.

They handle these situations every day and for the most part, they have a good sense of what is going on.

I think that this is the fork in the road, and he will either have to agree to move forward toward parenting with her, or truly break up with her.

I don't see him doing the latter, and this limbo is making her BPD worse.

If Max does opt for parenthood with his wife, she should go off all meds and they should treat her pregnancy as high-risk from the start.

Many women are put on bed-rest at some point in the pregnancy, and that would need to be the prescription for Mrs. Sterling from the outset.

No talk of leaving her; no ultimatums.

No pressure to get a job, cook or clean.

She must do nothing other than sit on the sofa by day and lie in bed at night (with Max stroking her hair), eat well and get very moderate exercise (none of those camping trips that Max loves but which drive her batty).

Everyone is yelling right now--how can anyone be so foolish as to recommend that he impregnate his wife?

Sometimes one must take a risk, even a foolhardy one, to get to the next level in life.

[Notwendy]

SweetCharlotte,

I see your point in that, if Ms. Sterling is married to Max, and she wants a baby, but he does not, then this in itself puts her in a bind. So long as Max is in limbo with staying or leaving, baby or no baby, she can not really go forward with her wishes if this is what she wants to do.

When one spouse wants children, and the other doesn't think it is wise to have them, or is not interested in having children for one of more reasons, then this can be a marital deal breaker. This is a huge life decision. It seems unfair for one spouse to insist that the other will not have children, however, it is also hugely unfair for the other spouse to be reluctantly forced into parenthood. Then, there is the issue of the child, who has no choice in the matter to be brought into a difficult situation.

I agree with you that limbo is a difficult place to be because neither spouse can move forward, and this can be emotionally stressful. So when a couple is placed into a deal breaker situation, and neither can let go of this ( nor should they if they feel strongly about it) there are choices.

Ms. Sterling can leave the marriage and take steps to have a child with or without a new partner.

Max can decide that he does not want to be a father with Ms. Sterling and dissolve the marriage.

Max can decide that he is willing to father a child with Ms. Sterling.

The couple continues in the emotional limbo, or resolves the issue on way or another- Ms Sterling decides to not have children, or Max decides to agree to try for one.

Yes, there are a lot of complicating factors besides these decisions that have been discussed. I am not dismissing them. I am trying to consider your point of view on this and I can see where this situation can be frustrating for his wife. Although there are strong arguments for her not becoming pregnant, this doesn't necessarily change her feelings about it, and you have a point that she may feel she is in limbo. Wanting a child doesn't mean one is capable of raising one, but telling her that she can not have one must feel invalidating to her. Still, this isn't a reason for Max to agree if he doesn't wish to. However, to become a father is also Max's choice too.

Your point of view is interesting because I think we all see that Max is in a difficult situation and have strong feelings about a mentally ill woman becoming a mother. However, I see where she could be focused on blaming Max for her not becoming a mother and so being angry at him. Professionals can help her process her feelings but I don't think they can tell her not to become a mother. There have been times where some individuals were not allowed to have children, and this is considered a violation of civil rights. It would be difficult to state that Ms. Sterling not get pregnant. I think it is possible to try to understand her point of view, not necessarily agreeing with it.

Max's ambivalence about the r/s is understandable. "Not yet" could be a fine decision, except for the fact that for a woman over 40, "not yet" becomes "not at all" in a short time. On the other hand, Max has the right to not be coerced into fathering a child with a woman who he believes isn't going to be a good mother to the child, and also when he doesn't think he can afford the child.

I don't have an answer to the baby question, but I see your point about how these unresolved issues could be causing stress to Ms. Sterling.

[sweetheart]

Chiming in with my outlier opinion again . . .

I don't think that Max is going to leave her in any definitive or meaningful way.

In order for Mrs. Sterling to calm down somewhat, she needs that crucial ingredient that has been on her mind ever since she and Max got together:

a pregnancy/baby.

She is in a double bind and will only get worse if she and Max are not trying for a baby soon.

She will not be able to behave herself for long unless they are actively working on this goal, which Max has wanted as well.

I don't wish to discount Max's distress over her recent blow-ups, suicide attempt, and attacks on him.

However, in the context of her typical behavior, these are her responses to the stress of being married and not trying to get pregnant, while the months tick away.

Each cycle could be her last fertile time; there is no way of knowing.

If Max were really in danger from her, the police would have told him to abandon the premises on the spot.

They handle these situations every day and for the most part, they have a good sense of what is going on.

I think that this is the fork in the road, and he will either have to agree to move forward toward parenting with her, or truly break up with her.

I don't see him doing the latter, and this limbo is making her BPD worse.

If Max does opt for parenthood with his wife, she should go off all meds and they should treat her pregnancy as high-risk from the start.

Many women are put on bed-rest at some point in the pregnancy, and that would need to be the prescription for Mrs. Sterling from the outset.

No talk of leaving her; no ultimatums.

No pressure to get a job, cook or clean.

She must do nothing other than sit on the sofa by day and lie in bed at night (with Max stroking her hair), eat well and get very moderate exercise (none of those camping trips that Max loves but which drive her batty).

Everyone is yelling right now--how can anyone be so foolish as to recommend that he impregnate his wife?

Sometimes one must take a risk, even a foolhardy one, to get to the next level in life.

I think when DV is present in a relationship, especially when a SO is diagnosed with BPD, we have to be very careful about how we set out our advice.

Advising a couple to go ahead and take a risk and have a baby when there is both active DV and unstable BPD is misguided. To me risks are best avoided when choosing to stay with someone diagnosed with BPD.

No matter what we believe the triggers might be for Max's wife, ultimately we don't actually know, so suggesting it is about growing frustration over wanting a baby is also misguided. It could just be the pervasiveness and escalation of the disorder.

For me the focus is best served helping max protect himself if he chooses to stay against further episodes of physical violence.

[Notwendy]

Sweetheart, I agree with you. Max's responsibility is to himself, and to keep himself safe.

I also think there are two sides to every story and with BPD the other side of the story can be very different.

I always saw my father as being a victim of mom's instability. It was only after his death that I could see her side of it.  I was way too angry at my mother to hear her point of view before that. It was amazing to realize how much she felt like a victim in her marriage.

Whether this is real or not, this is how they feel. I don't condone violence at all. It should be dealt with. However, I realized that when my mother was acting out her anger, she truly felt like she was a victim and being wronged by dad when she did, and at the moment, she felt justified.

Denial is thick. The idea that mom has a mental illness is unacceptable. There had to be another reason, and also a magical solution that would fix things. The reasons varied- the kids' behavior, Dad's job, someone she was mad at. It didn't matter as long as that reason was not being accountable for her mental illness. Then the cure was always the next magical thing- this family vacation, moving, a new home, planning a big party- If only this would happen then we would be fine--- as long as this was not admitting and getting treatment for her problems.

Dad went along with this. I don't think he felt he had a choice.

I considered the baby issue to be something Max's wife could focus on that would allow her to not focus on her issues. She could then see herself as a victim of Max's refusal to have a baby. She could save face with her friends this way and take the focus off her. My mother did this countless times with me- blame me for her issues.

[waverider]

The essence of this as that it is a pwBPDs lot that they always seem to act in a way that sabotages the ability to have their desires and needs met. In this example acting this way is the best way to ensure that Max will not want to commit to having a family, even if the desire for having a family is triggering it.

It is the BPD catch 22, and is repeated in many aspects throughout their life. Appeasing the need rarely fixes anything, the behavior moves to something else. Yes having a baby may soothe a pwBPD, but for how long before something else upsets the ability to regulate themselves? The behavior doesn't change only the focal point

[Notwendy]

The essence of this as that it is a pwBPDs lot that they always seem to act in a way that sabotages the ability to have their desires and needs met. In this example acting this way is the best way to ensure that Max will not want to commit to having a family, even if the desire for having a family is triggering it.

It is the BPD catch 22, and is repeated in many aspects throughout their life. Appeasing the need rarely fixes anything, the behavior moves to something else. Yes having a baby may soothe a pwBPD, but for how long before something else upsets the ability to regulate themselves? The behavior doesn't change only the focal point

WW, I think you are absolutely right. I see this played out in many ways. I don't want to hijack this thread but would think it is a great topic for another one.