Why do you stay?

[Depression = 72% of members]

Why do you stay?

And how are you doing it successfully and healthily?

I'm trying to weigh out my situation, but need some insight. Thank you!

[Thread]

Why do you stay?

And how are you doing it successfully and healthily?

I'm trying to weigh out my situation, but need some insight. Thank you!

[PLEASE - NO RUN MESSAGES]

PLEASE - NO RUN MESSAGES This is a high level discussion board for solving ongoing, day-to-day relationship conflicts. Members may appear frustrated but they are here for constructive solutions to problems. This is not a place for relationship "stay" or "leave" discussions. Please read the specific guidelines for this group.

[married21years]

Because I love care and have hope

Only way to do it is research support and therapy for you

Good luck we are here for you

[formflier]

Why do you stay?

And how are you doing it successfully and healthily?

I'm trying to weigh out my situation, but need some insight. Thank you!

These are big questions to ask... .I can see that they are very important to you... .

Also very important to me... .

I've been married 20 years... .and have 8 kids with my pwBPD traits. (my wife)

I am a deeply religious person... .I took a vow to be married to my wife... .(in sickness and health... .till death do we part)... .that is my value system... .it's worth it to me to uphold my values... .even if very uncomfortable.

I believe that I am more emotionally healthy than my wife (not saying I don't have issues... .I do) and therefore it falls to me to provide leadership to guide (don't ever think "force" the r/s to a better place.

bpdfamily is part of my support system that is helping me to this.  ( A support system is critical)

How am I doing it (wow... .that is Big Question!)

Brief overview:  Personally for my own "mental health"... .the concept that I shouldn't take things personally... .that aren't about me... .was earth shattering.  I still struggle with it.  I had previously thought that if my wife was raging at me... .about me... .that of course it was personal and I should "fight it"... ."fix it"... ."do something about it... ."

What this looks like now... .

1.

Wife:  "You love that other woman and hate me... ." 

(I examine my heart... .it's not true... .therefore it's not about me)... .so... .I let her keep the issue. 

I may validate an emotion... .or I may choose to not participate in a conversation about this.

2

Validation and invalidation:  I was raised to be complimentary... .we were not a validating family.  Although I don't think it would be accurate to say we were "invalidating".  This area is my current struggle.   I want to be a validater.  Avoiding invalidation came pretty easy... .once I learned to keep my mouth shut... .and not "pick up issues" (leave them with her)

3

Boundaries  Not really something I was familiar with before bpdfamily.  Especially with my wife.  I mean... .we were supposed to share everything... .right?  Sharing worked well for a long time... .(BPD symptoms in my r/s... .bad... .since 2009... .only hints before)... .

Very important to delay implementing boundaries until you understand them... .and can CONSISTENTLY do them.  Inconsistent is worse... .than doing nothing... .or delaying.

There is so much more to say... .but I like to break things down into "top 3 lists" and that kind of thing... .

Can you tell us some about your situation... .and what kind of things are going through your mind right now?

FF

[Loosestrife]

I posted a question re: people staying that don't have kids on the undecided board and the lack of response was overwhelming!

[Thread]

FF,

Everything you wrote steps 1, 2, and 3 (especially 3) I need to work on. I'm waiting for a spot to open up in therapy at the DBT institute (for my h BPD) and for me, but there is a three to four month wait. I guess its a bigger thing than I realized. I am in therapy however, and so is he, I just do not see it working. He is turning all the situations around onto me, I did it first, or it was a reaction to my facial expressions or my non reaction... .etc, etc.

I had to get back on anxiety meds and am seriously battling depression. Again I don't think his therapist understands what I am dealing with day to day.

":)on't talk about that" "I don't want to be part of your sarcasm" "Happy anniversary (sarcastic after screaming at me for being frustrated that he keeps shutting down my conversations) "I don't like your friends because I see who you get the sarcasm from" "I don't like your family because they judge me" "Why are you smiling its not funny!" (I was upset with a photo, not due to the quality of the photo, but how bad I looked from the stress I am dealing with) "Why are you talking to me like a robot?" then continues to mock me in a robotic voice. I said that something we were making was not doing so well due to the humidity and said it was going to be a "fun" summer... ."Stop being so negative, I can't handle it right now" (making a certain product for our business and the humidity strongly effects the outcome of the product)

My sister texted me that she is concerned for my health. Has never seen me look this bad. She said it was obvious something is wrong and that clearly the relationship is not worth it.

Is he a wonderful man, yes, is our business working its way to success, yes, can I do our business/our dream without him, no, it was built for us, but am I falling apart and on the verge of a break YES.

Something needs to change and I am just losing all hope. Actually it's pretty much non-existent at this point.

[formflier]

Something needs to change and I am just losing all hope. Actually it's pretty much non-existent at this point.

Your frustration... .despair... .lack of hope is obvious... .you are totally justified to feel that way.

How would you describe your prevailing emotion... .  Most days I feel... .?

I'm going to consider your post... .and look for your reply to the above ... .

I'll try to get back with a response later today... .

   We are here for you!

FF

[earthgirl]

Hanging,

I ask myself this question a LOT. 

I think I'm staying out of hope that things will get better.  Hope without a plan is just delusion, though.  I have a plan -- things I learned here -- things like what Formflier mentions -- and I'm implementing it.  Slowly, very slowly, as my skills improve, things are getting better. 

My problem is this, and it's a BIG problem:  I don't know if it's enough.  Things were so bad the first two years, and I went through all my reserves, and I'm just having a hard time building them back up.  I find myself dwelling on a lot of things, horrible things, he said in the past; and now when he does or says things that would have not bothered me so much when he was doing truly horrible things... .well, these smaller things seem to affect me just as much as the bigger ones did in the past.  I can't seem to get over what happened in the past, and I hate the feeling (and I don't thing this will ever go away) of waiting for the next bad thing to happen.

This is where mindfulness and trying to stay in the moment comes in.  That is a big challenge for me, because it's hard to be present in the now when I know that if I do certain things (based on what reaction I've gotten in the past) there is going to be a problem.

*Sigh*  I don't know.  I think, to answer your question in brief, here's my answer:

1.  I stay because I have a plan, and things are improving with this plan being implemented.  Slow, baby steps, but moving in the right direction.

2.  I stay because the good times still outweigh the bad. 

Earthgirl

[Verbena]

I stay for financial security.  I don't like admitting that, but it's true.  We have been married almost 33 years, and I don't want to start over at my age--54. 

I have finally learned (still learning) not to look for my husband for my happiness or for any validation of what I'm feeling, for approval or praise, or for affection.

He is very responsible and reliable and works hard. He takes care of many things that I am either not good at, have no experience at, or just would prefer not to do.  So I let him do those things, thank him for it, and don't expect anything else from him. 

I do my thing and he does his.  I share less and less with him because there is no point.  He either ignores me or has almost nothing to say.  We basically live like roommates.  It's not ideal by any means, but letting go of trying to "fix it" has been freeing in some ways. 

When he is angry or moody (which is most of the time), I do not ask anymore what is wrong or try to change it.  He chooses to be a miserable person and I choose not to.  I avoid him whenever possible. 

[SweetCharlotte]

I don't have kids with him and I don't rely on him financially in any way.

We're a commuter marriage--six hours away by car, so we only see each other one weekend per month and on holidays/ vacations.

I must be staying for the pure fun of it.

I tried to divorce him a few times but couldn't go through with it.

He is faithful to me, doesn't abuse me physically, and doesn't do drugs or anything else that is illegal.

Our love life is good when we are together, when he isn't painting me black.

He makes me feel needed because most of the time my kids and I manage to alleviate some of his misery.

So, he gives me something to look forward to and yet I don't have to deal with him every day and night.

[Oooohm]

Hanging,

This is not going to help... .but may ring true for you and let you know you are not alone.

After contemplating this topic for an hour I decided to add.

I hear in some of the responses a lot of "hope".

I think for me it is "Fear"  (Sad but true)

Fear of leaving my daughters without an Emotionally and Financially stable, responsible, adult in their day to day lives.

Fear of starting over.

Fear of what will happen to my wife (I do love her dearly) emotionally and financially if I leave.

Fear of trying to sustain a new relationship with someone else. (I am no longer the same man I was in my 20's now in my 50's. I beilieve negotiating a Relationship with my uBPDw over the last 26 years has irreversibly changed me as a person. I used to be Confident, Outgoing, Personable, Caring,... .Not depressed)

Fear of being alone.

But mostly... .  Fear of this ever happening to me again... .  Sort of developed a mistrust of woman in general.    

Call it:  "The devil you know... .".

I've only been "Intrigued" by, "Attracted" to 2 other woman since I've been with my wife.  Both turned out to be raving BPD sufferers.  Go figure. Severely gun shy now.

Life isn't bad now... .sort of made it thru the 26 mile train tunnel and even tho it's raining on the other side at least it's light out and I'm not tripping on the railroad ties every 4' in the dark.

[Thread]

FF:

Most days I feel defeated

Even before the defeat, I know its on its way. 

Like Earthgirl stated

"... .it's hard to be present in the now when I know that if I do certain things (based on what reaction I've gotten in the past) there is going to be a problem."

Something as simple as a normal conversation, turns into a debate, then ridicule, then an explosion. This type of cycling happens weekly to bi-monthly. Normal one or two days, loving typically one day, irriation, rage/episode, shame and self pity the next, sorrowful, clingy desperation... .then the pattern continues.  It is one week to two week time periods.  I'm lucky if this only occurs once a month, but as of late, this is not the case.

[vortex of confusion]

Why do I stay?

1. Wedding vows.

2. Kids. I think it is best for my kids if we stay together. Yes, there are difficult times and they see us fighting from time to time. They also see us having fun and being silly together. They also see both of us working together to improve things.

3. Finances. There is no way that I could realistically leave and be able to give my kids the same lifestyle/quality of life that they have now.

4. Fear. Afraid of being a single mom. Both of my sisters are single moms and I have seen their struggles. I could do it if I had no choice. I have a choice so I am going to stick with the one that makes my life easier.

5. Reality. The reality is that things can be difficult between me and my husband. Relationships take work. I am not going to throw out 17 years worth of marriage because he is difficult to live with and has issues. I am difficult to live with too. I also have issues. The reality is that if I want a happy ending, I can do that with or without my husband. I have to find it within myself rather than relying on another person. My husband doesn't physically abuse me and has been working really hard to change some of his behaviors.

[Hmcbart]

I agree with vortex on some of these reasons.

1. Kids- I have seen how bad she can get at stressful times. If we divorced, I don't think it would get much more stressful. She had a panic attack once after I got tired of be raged at and turned off my phone. I was at work at the time. She will take out her anger and rage at the kids verbally when I'm not there to buffer it.

2. Wedding vow- simple as it sounds. I said I do and I refuse to give up. As stupid as it may be some days.

3. Fear- been with her for 20 years. I know I'm a caretaker. I'm working on the boundaries and hopefully before too long I can scratch this one off the list. Or at least change it to say "I stay because I choose to stay".

[Thread]

Verbena,

I love your honesty 

I've only been married for 5 years, no kids. In asking myself why I stay, because he is like yours, does the things I'm not good at, works hard on those things. I couldn't do my business without his strengths that support my weaknesses and vice versa.

My honest truth now days would be, I stay for my business I've worked my a$$ off for. I stay because I know he loves me so deeply and the intimate times are AMAZING.

But why I question it, because I am dropping into depression and my soul and my health are suffering. Because I can't have a intimate or a normal conversation with my husband. Because I need to be able to be me without correction, ridicule or defense.

[Thread]

Sweet Charlotte,

I dream about a situation like yours.

Whenever things get challenging I think to myself, if only this were more like a long distance relationship, I could do it! Or, if I can just take off for a week to myself, we can make it. The day in and day out and heightened control over my life is too much, way too much.

[Thread]

Ooohm,

I like it. I believe we all must have fear in why we stay.

I fear leaving and him harming himself.

I fear my business dissolving, which we built together

I fear not having a partner as compatible in bed, yes its a fear

I fear, like you, I must be attracted to BPDs or what I used to call an "artistic personality" (even if they aren't artists)

I fear finding worse if I leave

I fear being alone

I fear having to start all over

I fear I will never heal from this

[Loosestrife]

I am staying for now as my pwBPD is accepting diagnosis and doing everything humanly possible to improve their coping mechanisms so we have a healthier relationship. I am also trying to learn, but the best thing I have learnt so far is to be myself.

[hellosun]

My husband with uBPD really is my BFF.   I know that if I left him it would confirm his worst fears about himself, and I could never do that to him. I knew this before I started dating him, so I feel a responsibility to prevent hurting him in that way.

Something as simple as a normal conversation, turns into a debate, then ridicule, then an explosion.

This has been happening to me on a daily basis this past week, and it is driving me crazy.

But why I question it, because I am dropping into depression and my soul and my health are suffering. Because I can't have a intimate or a normal conversation with my husband. Because I need to be able to be me without correction, ridicule or defense.

Does this mean that you close up/stop sharing with your partner, premptively? I tend towards doing this to protect myself, and it leads to depression in my case.

[Notwendy]

I try to avoid the trapping of thinking I am more emotionally together than my H. The book, Passionate Marriage uses a term "differentiation" which roughly describes not being enmeshed, emotional maturity. It states that we marry someone who is at the same level of "differentiation" as we are, and also that each partner believes that he/she is more "differentiated" (emotionally healthy) than their spouse.

I stayed because the good in the r/s outweighed the bad and I was aware that I had a part in the dynamics of my r/s and one can not "leave" our own selves. I would just take my stuff into another r/s after destroying a potentially good one. Our MT first asserted that I was safe from physical harm in the r/s. This was important to me because I was so afraid of anger that I could not assert my boundaries. Growing up, making mother angry was terrifying, and so were my H's anger outbursts at me. Consequently, I appeased him rather than assert boundaries. I had to learn to stand up for myself, even if he got angry. However, if there was a chance of harm, I would not be able to risk his anger so it was important to me to establish this.

The MT and I agreed on the benefit of growing emotionally in this r/s rather than escaping from it and I think we both understood that the issues were something that required emotional growth on my part. It was somewhat upsetting to me that she focused on me, but I was motivated to do the work. I think it has been effective, not because of some miraculous changes in other people, but because of the way I have grown to handle issues. However, I think every relationship is different and we need to decide the many factors for ourselves. I see my mother as being more affected than my H, who I think has just enough traits to match the co-dependency and adaptive behavior ( to being raised with mom with BPD)  I grew up with- and now I have to work at learning new ways to be in a relationship.

[Links]

So many truths to contemplate in everyone's posts.

How can we every REALLY be happy (or even a legitimate couple) if we cant discuss our thoughts, feelings?

If we are not truly being ourselves because doing so would cause anger or some other unpleasant emotion or experience... .then we are not in the relationship. Its our "unengaging-submissive alternate personality" IDK about anyone else, but I don't remember having that side of me until my BPD.

Why do I love a woman that I would consider a complete ^$$#0le if she were a man?

The totally ironic part of it is I was initially attracted to her because she had an opinion. We had great, stimulating, long in depth conversations about everything... .Its a blur as to how all that ended.

I suppose Im only still in love with the amazing woman I never see anymore.

BPD SUCKS!

IDK, Just thinking out loud

[Links]

This just put into words my point of view, focus, and actions which I've had a difficult time defining to myself.

THANK YOU!


Reality. The reality is that things can be difficult between me and my husband. Relationships take work. I am not going to throw out 17 years worth of marriage because he is difficult to live with and has issues. I am difficult to live with too. I also have issues. The reality is that if I want a happy ending, I can do that with or without my husband. I have to find it within myself rather than relying on another person.

[pressonetohold]

Hi Hang,

Most of the reactions above resound to me, Formflier makes some very recognizable comments, Other reasons, practical, romantic, ethic all play part for me too, to a more or lesser extend, but they make me want to clear my mind for my own, and maybe, to your benefit. Let's give it a try;

1. There is love, love conquers all. Love is stupid, non logical, and oh so good. I hope to celebrate our love as much and as long as possible.

2. I find myself with my partner, I mean, I really feel understood, loved for what I am, and respected in the good times at least, a basis I can hold on to.

3. I understand her troubles, with her condition, and how much it influences her functioning, I have great admiration for the trails she had to, and did, endure, to get where she is now.

4. I am not the easiest person neither, I have my flaws and particularities, and I find some understanding from her side, for  behavior and thoughts that are outside of the 'common' within other relationships I always had to fight for the right to be as I am.

5. Now I feel some resentment against the idea of 'staying'. That sounds like it says 'you should leave' or 'that it is a good deed to stay' I don't 'stay' with her. I am with her, which is my choice, and, if I make up the balance, I have no regrets what so ever. That feeling, is probably what makes me 'stay' too.

6. (Dealing with) her condition made her one of the strongest, and most interesting people I know. 'Normal' women fade in her presence, although I might be a bit biased, as I love her.

I can think of more, but I think I have covered the most important. Good luck over there, I hope you find an attitude towards your relationship that fits your needs.

[waverider]

Starts off as default survival mode. Disbelief that it can't be turned around after the next issue is overcome. Delusion if you like, linked by a lack of belief in your own choices.

As I started to learn about this disorder and slowly turning things around, I found I was improving me and that was validating. The high conflict virtually evaporated, and I established a high sense of me, and time for me. A self confidence and space I never experienced before with anyone. This was my "reward" if you like., and it was mine, not something I was given or allowed. I went through a lot of trauma to get where I am now.

If I was the person in the beginning that I am now I would not have stayed. I am content with what I have now but would not pay that price for it again.

[Notwendy]

Starts off as default survival mode. Disbelief that it can't be turned around after the next issue is overcome. Delusion if you like, linked by a lack of belief in your own choices.

As I started to learn about this disorder and slowly turning things around, I found I was improving me and that was validating. The high conflict virtually evaporated, and I established a high sense of me, and time for me. A self confidence and space I never experienced before with anyone. This was my "reward" if you like., and it was mine, not something I was given or allowed. I went through a lot of trauma to get where I am now.

If I was the person in the beginning that I am now I would not have stayed. I am content with what I have now but would not pay that price for it again.


Love this WW, and feel the same. However, saying if I knew then what I know now, isn't possible. I had to learn what I learned to get here. The "default survivor mode" is a great way to describe what I learned to survive with my parents growing up, but falling back on this in my marriage made me also think that this was the only choice. However, we have choices, stay, leave, grow through either choice, or stay in the same pattern. One incentive to work on growing emotionally was the belief that I could not assess the situation fairly without working on my end- and also the realization was that there was much emotional growth needed on my end regardless of the r/s.

[formflier]

If I was the person in the beginning that I am now I would not have stayed. I am content with what I have now but would not pay that price for it again.

Very interesting way to put it.  

Lately... .I've been thinking about life... .not as the destination... .but as the journey... .the road you are on.

There have been times in my life when I thought I was going round and round... .I paid a price to exit that circle and move along.  That wasn't fun... .but I'm glad I had that growth... .I'm glad I went on that journey.

But... .if you asked me if I wanted to drive on that road again... .nope.  Not a chance.  I am going to drive on the road ahead of me... .I don't exactly know where that road leads... .but I know who I am... .and who I'm not.  Nobody else will define that or my feelings and values... .

I'm going to enjoy my journey... .have my special space... .

FF

[Thread]

Links,

What you have said

How can we every REALLY be happy (or even a legitimate couple) if we cant discuss our thoughts, feelings?

is why I am posting this question. Why I am feeling torn.

And to answer you question as to the "unengaging-submissive alternate personality" I was not like this prior.

I was always engaged, doing my best. Yes I deal with anxiety issues here and there, but was free from it and medication for 6 years prior to BPD relationship and during our year separation was also free from it and meds.

Any move I make can become a rage against me. And if he snaps at me, it then becomes me being at fault for shutting down, as if I shut down before he snapped. I then wake up to him complaining about how horrible I make him feel and how this marriage is on the edge of ending... .

This can start from a conversation about dual incomes and the difference from women working now to our parents generation where typically there was only one income   This conversation started a spiral of emotion which led to "this is going to end in divorce"   All because my girlfriend who I had this conversation with initially - my h BPD doesn't like. 

[formflier]

Links,

What you have said

How can we every REALLY be happy (or even a legitimate couple) if we cant discuss our thoughts, feelings?

is why I am posting this question. Why I am feeling torn.

It all depends on where you are in the spectrum of recovering (or whatever the appropriate term is) from untreated... .unrestrained BPD traits... .along with a partner that doesn't know any better.

So... .this answer and how many feelings and thoughts that we can share depends on progress of two people... .(the pwBPD traits... .and the non)

I want to give everyone in this thread hope that things can and will get better through the consistent application of tools on bpdfamily.  Add in some good therapy... .and things get even better.

I have conversations with my wife about feelings that are deeper and more meaningful than anything in the past several years.  Is it what I remember from 10 years ago... .nope.  But I think we will get back to that... .that is my goal.  But I can't force that to happen... .just like my wife can't force me to do anything either.

Last thought... .you can discuss your feelings and thoughts... .you need to do it in a smart way.  Also need to respect that if you are at the "stop the bleeding stage" that discussing feelings and thoughts is pretty far down on this list.

Accept where you are.

Accept what is the next step towards a healthier r/s.  

Take that step... .let time and consistency work their magic.

FF

[Thread]

Hello Sun,

No. I don't close up permanently.  But when he rages, throws tantrums or has episodes I shut down. I won't engage him when he seems particularly argumentative or opposing. When that occurs I can sense he wants to or is on the verge of a explosion.  When he is spiraling I often repeat over and over, "I don't want to continue this conversation. You are escalating and I don't want to continue talking."  

But I have noticed I engage with him less and less as these outbursts occur and the more frequent they have become because I really can't tell anymore what is going to ruffle his feathers. And yes, its depressing as heck. The control over me and even just my ideas, opinions, thoughts, what I talk about has gotten ridiculous, and this mistrust and always looking over my shoulder is driving me nuts.

He was my best friend, my business partner, my half. I've been hanging onto that, but as of recent... .I don't know.

[formflier]

 When he is spiraling I often repeat over and over, "I don't want to continue this conversation. You are escalating and I don't want to continue talking."  

Repeating this is generally not good.  Say it once... .enforce it. 

Even better to make it simpler... ."I can't continue the conversation right now.  I'll check back in with you in 10 minutes"

Leave any talk of the other person out of it.

FF

[Thread]

FF,

What do I do when I say I don't want to continue this conversation right now and he keeps badgering me and yelling, spiraling etc?

Also, most times I cannot walk away because we work together and most times the stuff we work with has a time frame or it will ruin, for example boiling sugar. It won't stop when you stop it's going to become caramel if I walk away and burn. Where we work we also pay for our hours used like an art studio per se.

How do I manage that kind of situation?

I know when I'm at home I can leave and I've done that a few times, not too much if it's not a big deal but mostly when the dysregulation starts or major cursing and attacks on my character occur.

Thank you for all the advice and insight it's clearly learned and practiced! I'm waiting for an opening at the DBT institute. (3-4 month wait list)