Do the lies ever end

[to99999]

Hi, i'm in my early thirties, about to begin my third year of law school, engaged and about to be a father with the love of my life; who suffers from BPD.  I have never posted on a message board ever, literally my first time.  So everything is brand new to me and i am doing my best to navigate the waters and the etiquette of the site.

I am reaching out because things have come to a fever pitch.  The real extent of the affects of this on my love and me are beginning to unfold and there is a lot at stake now.  We have been together for three years, engaged last summer, and thirteen weeks ago we found out she is cooking a little one in her oven.  Then things unraveled.  Im new to this world, and if I am being honest, neglected trying to truly understand it until now.  

A little about my fiancé (or least what she has told me): She is 28.  She was diagnosed with BPD in 2011.  She went away for inpatient treatment for three months.  It is believed, but unconfirmed, that there was childhood sexual trauma.  It is very unclear because she says she has no memory of anything and the impression I get is that is was kind of hushed by the family.  I really don't know; not a very open family.  Her father died of cancer when she was 8.  And somewhere around all of this time she says that she began to show symptoms.  She began cutting and acting out sexually around that age and it progressively became worse over the years.  Tumultuous relationships.  Risky sexual behavior.  She married at 22 and divorced at 24.  It was during this relationship that she was diagnosed and went to treatment leading to the divorce.  When she exited treatment and came back home and we began dating almost a year later in 2012.

We have had so much stacked against us from the start, and we have both done a terrible job of confronting this.  Shortly after we started dating I began applying to and then attending law school (which i should have listened to all the old lawyers who said i shouldn't do that to myself) which is more demanding than anything i have ever experienced, she didn't tell me about her BPD for a while, she hasn't been very open about it at all.  Also, for so many reasons that i regret, I didn't explore it.  So it has been the blind leading the blind this whole time and we're drowning.  When she first told me about it, she told me about treatment and that she was better and that she has never been better.  It certainly appeared that way so i really didn't ask questions.  She asked that i respect her privacy with it and to not talk about it because it was sensitive to her.  I had never even heard of it before, i didn't know what i was faced with.  So i didn't think much of it.  She seemed fine.  Things really changed after we began dating.  I just thought she was turning into that stereotypical high maintenance, controlling, girlfriend who was testing and creating boundaries.  We were in love and I thought it would die down over time.  At first she blamed all of her behavior as a result of an abusive marriage that in the end was not really as abisuve as she described.  Again, i didn't think much of it.  Then we began to fight a lot, a few times she has been physical.  My family is Irish and I am used to heated arguments, i don't know.  It was a red flag that i ignored.  I can't explain the way I handled it the way i did.  

Then she cheated on me, at least once that I kind of know of.  This was the beginning of everything.  I do not have an honest account of what happened that weekend.  It has mostly been lies that have been exposed, in cycles, always resulting in a different story, and then repeat, ultimately ending with "its been too long i don't remember anymore".  She was in contact with someone she had a weekend fling with once before me and went to another city for a weekend with him at a music festival.  She said that she was going to visit her sister in that same city.  We were in a serious rough patch with no one feeling like they were getting what they deserved.  So i kind of got why she did it.  The strange thing was that she spoke with me via text the entire first day that she was with him, she created an entire fictitious account of what she was doing.  Like we were just having typical mundane conversations, that she would initiate, about what she was doing, where she was, who she was with.  Telling me that people said hi or things to me who weren't actually even there.  All while simultaneously really doing something entirely different.  Her behavior just began to feel weird so I called her out on it and that started a major fight which led to her breaking up with me.  She then went home with him that night and can't remember what happened. She says she knows something did happen because she asked him about it in the morning but that "it was only oral sex".  She calls me the next day and apologizes for fighting and that we need to try to work things out.  She then calls a little while later and says her sister's friends got extra tickets to a concert at a famous venue and that she was offered one and how excited and honored she was.  Well it was actually him, with two tickets, and they had planned on going together before she even left town.  They went home together again and she says that she couldn't remember this time because she was drunk, but asked him again in the morning and that it was only oral sex.  She said he seemed like he wanted more in the morning, so she offered to preform oral sex for him that again, left, and then literally drove home to me.   I believed her whole story about what she was doing and had no idea any of that was even going on at the time.  The initial confession was that someone has kissed her at a bar and she was ashamed.  Then there was an onslaught of lies and deception that may have been too damaging at this point.

The lying and subsequent battle for discovery became very cyclical to me.  I was often labeled as someone who didn't know to let things go by her and her family because i was convinced she was lying about something.  She went to very great lengths to lie and cover them up and obliterated the trust.  Still at no point did I think BPD.  She convinced me that it was my fault, and that her inability to tell me was my fault.  I do have a temper, and I am not always on point, but those accusations didn't always really match the situation.  The lies became more intense.  At first they were about the infidelity.  But then she began admitting to other lies that i had no idea about, but really only as a tactic to divert from the issue at hand, as she has admitted to.  Then a lot of those turned out to be lies as well.  Things fell apart, I completely lost my head, I was just surviving and reacting.  I acted out in terrible ways with alcohol and anger because i could not understand what was happening.  My reality began to shift with hers but I didn't see it.

She brought BPD, but exploited it to assist in the lies.  One of her patterns was to lie about something and then when she was caught she said she couldn't remember what actually happened but that what she had told me was a lie.  She spoke of symptoms about disassociation and said that was the reason for no memories.  I felt awful about myself.  How could i be so selfish?  How could i have let her down so much?  She began to talk about it in a very limited way, and I realized that my role was to be a support and back off of her.  Something didn't feel right to me at the time so i approached her about my concerns.  As it turns out, she was lying about something, admitted to it, admitted to actually remembering it, and admitting to hiding behind BPD as an excuse because she said she thought that it would make me feel bad for her and leave her alone about being honest.  I could never look at her and BPD the same.  I thought that from that point on she was lying about it every time.  I began to wonder if she even really had it or just read a psych book or two and decided thats what I am going to have.  

She used therapists, that she would not be open with her BPD, to help her turn the tables onto me and convince me that there were no more lies.  She would threaten me not to tell about it.  We were poor and couldn't afford the best psychologists, I don't have much experience with that at all.  She would always pick them.  I was losing my mind and reactions were volatile and she shift all focus to that, to the point where we are having entire sessions about me and no longer the trust issues.  She, with the support of a therapist, decided to write a latter to me to be read in session.  It was 25 pages, and very little of it was true.  It didn't make any sense, she made up very graphic rape stories to explain why she couldn't be honest with me about anything sexual.  It didn't feel right, and i didn't buy it.  Im sitting here screaming for these therapists to believe me and what I'm saying and i have both of them telling me to relax and just accept that she is being honest and that my disbelief is a product of a trust issue independent of her.  It has been a nightmare.  

I can't trust anything, not her telling me about BPD episodes (as she calls them), not her with a therapist, and certainly not to tell the truth.  I can't take the lying anymore.  It is unfolding on a massive scale and it shows no signs of stopping.  I do not really know who she is?  She has admitted to everything being a lie of some degree or magnitude, but then tells me a truly meaningless thing and acts like that is what the big deal has been about the whole time and all the lying is over.  This is terrifying.  Some of the very few things that have come out are serious, and have an element to them that makes me think there is much more than she is saying about any particular thing.  I have lost all dignity.  I have resorted to snooping and finding hard evidence that i bring to her that she claims i am misunderstanding or thats not how she perceives things.  I cannot tell you how many arguments I have been in about reality.  She would very much describe symptoms of BPD related to reality in a very positive light, like it was an eastern philosophy.  She would tell me that reality isn't real, it is only perceptions, and that it is our experiences were always going to be different and that it is impossible for people to view the same thing in the same way.  She would quote philosophers and such and I mean, I don't know much about philosophy.  I spend so much time reading all damn day and night I don't have time for things like that.  

This past week has been very rough with a lot of lying and a lot of getting very close to be honest and then what feels like her chickening out at the last minute.  There were serious things at issue and she wouldn't own up so I left her.  I haven't been able to really let go, this was my life, and we are having a baby.  I felt like i hadn't stood up for myself and that i had to take a strong stand and demand honesty.  The focus was on her lying, and admitting to things so that we could repair the trust.  She won't do it.  She won't admit that there is even a lie to tell but it is obvious. I have learned so many patterns about her behavior and indicators that she isn't telling the truth to protect myself.  I didn't even think of BPD until yesterday.  But when i read about lying and BPD i cried.  It described everything I thought was happening to me, the motivations, the manifestations.  I brought it up, and she jumped right in and said yeah probably.  Then she began to hide behind it again.  (I know that may sound insensitive and that is not my intention, but i guess what I am trying to say is that because of the past I don't feel safe trusting even her talking about this).  

She has stated a very clear want to go and get any kind of help she can.  At this point we have a lot of resources to do that.  I want to be the one to stand by her and support her in what i am sure is a very hard thing.  I want to know that what I am about to go through, and give to her, and take from her is worth it.  I want an assurance from her that she is going into this with a mindset of healing not perpetuating.  That she is actually going to take it seriously and actually do the work to manage this.  She decided at some point a long time ago, that she was over this and threw away all of the material she received in treatment.  I want to know that it is not just another ploy to buy herself more time to figure out what to do.  I asked that she give me a sign that this is for real this time.  I asked for her to admit that there is a lie that she is aware of and just can't tell me right now, no details, no questions, just that.  For me that is a sign that she is willing to sacrifice some of these defense mechanisms that hurt me, that she is willing to expose herself in the way she is going to have to in order for treatment to be effective, that what I will not tolerate anymore is actually going to stop.  She won't, she is exhibiting all of the patterns of lying and won't say anything.  I don't know how to proceed with her without the trust being repaired, or at least honestly worked on.  

My focus has been on the lying, I know the issue is much bigger than that.  But that is my biggest concern.  I desperately need honesty, especially now. How do I convince her to be honest with me.  I have tried everything under the sun.  I continuously remind her that I don't care anymore about any of it, that i want to move forward with our lives together.  Stop wasting so much energy on the lying.  That she has no reason to feel shame from me.  She is missing that I want to love her, the real her, however, and whoever that is.  I feel like I know her heart and that is really is a good person, but she can't be honest with me.  What do i have to say to get her to be honest.  how do i even know if she is when she says she is.

Oh my god this is a novel.  Im so sorry, i am just beaten down and have no where to go.  I don't know if that was the right thing to do or not.  I left a few days ago before this had become anything about BPD.  I am in limbo and has lost my own sense of reality.  And i don't know how to deal with it.  Where is the line between good supporting partner and not tolerating destructive behavior? We are having a baby.  I am losing my mind.  I'm sorry.  I'm sorry for unloading all of this all at once.  It's actually very abbreviated but I am about to lose everything and I'm out of cries for help.  Is this her or the BPD, where is that line?  Can i ever expect her to be honest?  She talks about it like it is all out of her control.

-Regards

[PLEASE - NO RUN MESSAGES]

PLEASE - NO RUN MESSAGES This is a high level discussion board for solving ongoing, day-to-day relationship conflicts. Members may appear frustrated but they are here for constructive solutions to problems. This is not a place for relationship "stay" or "leave" discussions. Please read the specific guidelines for this group.

[married21years]

you have a lot of reading to do, this is a real issue for you you need individual therapy to help you!

you are the important one, and don't isolate yourself!

take care of yourself first!

we are all here for you! 

[to99999]

Thank you for taking the time to reply to me.  This is just a nightmare that keeps getting worse.  I am receiving therapy, but until now it was working through the trust issues and not about BPD.  I have been reading on here all night and I am so overwhelmed.  I don't know if i can do this.  I see so many posts about lives ruined, and torments….

[married21years]

this is day 1, this is a long process. stay calm learn about validation and projection. these are two things very important to understand.

and a good starting point.

we are all here for you 

[mywifecrazy]

YOU... .Can't fix her! I am going to be blunt! I mean no disrespect nor do I minimize what you are going through.

I would NOT marry her! I understand she is pregnant but marrying her at this time would make matters for you much worse. Take all your focus off of her and start planning on what you can control. Your life and you being a father. Do not try to be her care taker or rescuer. You think it's rough now? Marry her and she and her craziness will be attached to you for the REST OF YOUR LIFE!

You have been given a gift that a lot of us WISH we had been given. The gift of exposure. Reading your story scared me for you. You now know who she is and you MUST look at her ACTIONS and not her words. She is a master manipulator and liar. She also has no respect for you and your boundaries. She has put you in the role of caretaker. You take care of her while she runs around and has sex with whoever she wants then she can come home for you to,provide for her. She forgets? God if I haven't heard that before. That's what they say when they are CAUGHT!

You are lawyer, think about this LOGICALLY, without emotions! Go back and read your post. If this was a brother or friend what would your advice be to them? Would you advise them that she is someone they should marry and be connected with for the rest of their lives? Be smart, if you get married you WILL be dealing with this the rest of your life. As of now you will be dealing with her as a co-parent but that's much more manageable as you are responsible for your child. Get married and you are responsible for her.

You can always call off the wedding and co-parent (parallel parenting is more of a reality... .Look it up). If she ever gets serious and gets into treatment and REALLY deals with her issues, marriage is an option down the road.

I recently had this advice given to me: "If your ever uncertain about an important life changing decision, the best thing to do is NOTHING."

I feel for you man but like I said you might not feel this way now but you have been given the gift of seeing her TRUE SELF before you got married. Most of us didn't see the train wreck coming because we were blinded by their chameleon like ways.

Again I meant no disrespect in my response. I just wanted you to see how I'm reading your situation. Good luck to you and good luck with your child. Be the best Dad in the world!

MWC... .

[married21years]

cant argue with MWC 

[to99999]

MWC,

Thank you so much for your words, no disrespect taken.  A lot of the advice I have been given has been that I can't just leave her now like this.  It was a refreshing, although disappointing, different perspective.  The problem I see is that I won't know what REALLY trying will look like.  I have my doubts. But if it were you would you test the waters before making a decision?  I want to, I'm aware that it may not be the best decision, but is there no success? 

[to99999]

The wedding was postponed because we were diverting the money from that to the baby.  As of now there are no wedding plans, and we have put off the engagement?  Does that make a difference, are your words meant for dating?

[mywifecrazy]

From My perspective (post divorce and 18 yr marriage thrown away by X)

I don't see them or in your case her changing. She is showing you who she is. You can't wish her to be someone she is not. You can't expect to marry her and she will change. Again you have the gift of full exposure of who she is. Her behavior will not change with marriage and will only get worse. You need to look at the FACTS that are before you. The fact of who she IS. It's sad to come to the full understanding that the person is mentally ILL. It's hard because at times they can seem totally OK. They are not! It's sad but it is reality and you need to deal with reality. And I'm sure you're already experiencing what reality with her looks like. By your own post it is making you feel,like you are going crazy! It's all the gas lighting she is pulling on you!

I can't tell you what to do. Nobody can. The decision is yours. Test the waters? You already know what the waters will be like if you are with her. She showed you the waters and by your own post the waters look like a Tsunami tearing across the landscape.

Again no disrespect meant. My last post on your thread. Good luck to you.

MWC... .

[marie1057]

I agree with the advice you have been given. I married a man with undiagnosed BPD and alcoholism 25 years ago and he Still hasn't sought treatment for either one and I have spent so many many years depressed. I thought if I loved him enough he would change. He has lied for years. Now that he is older much of the craziness like other woman has stopped, however there are still many issues. I now know he doesn't plan to get help ever. Don't go down that road to hell. Go to therapy, build up your self esteem. I am finally in therapy, doing workbooks on dialectical behavior therapy for myself, meditation, learning mindfulness and realizing I can only change myself.

[vortex of confusion]

 

Welcome to the forums!

Sounds like you are in a pickle of a situation. Read all you can for certain. And, you can decide to stay with her for now but I would not recommend getting married to her at this time.

Start with the lessons that you can find down the right side of the forum! They can give you some information about her behavior as well as your own.

Some of the things that you describe about your partner sound like there might be an element of sex addiction. That is something that I deal with with my spouse so I see it everywhere. What struck me in your post was how you described your concerns about lying being related to some past trauma for you. When I told people about my situation, one of the first things I was told was, "Oh, since you didn't do anything about that, then you must suffer from abandonment issues." What the heck? Really? Um, there are some things that can happen to a person that leaves them utterly friggin' confused and there is no good response, especially when the behavior in question is abusive. It wasn't until I started working with a trauma coach that I got some validation that I am not crazy and that I am perfectly justified for having trust issues with my husband.

I have a question for you that might be difficult to think about. If she is known for lying and has cheated on you in the past, are you certain that the bun in her oven is yours?

[ZeusRLX]

Personally, I don't know if I'd count on it getting much better soon.

I would proceed only if you are okay with the past behaviors continuing into the future. If you are proceeding with the expectation of things getting better overnight, just be sure you are not engaging in wishful thinking.