Collateral Damage?

[FannyB]

We all know the damage our BPD SOs did to us or we wouldn't be on these boards talking about it! 

But what about those family members that are still in their company long after we left? What traits did you observe in your beloved's sons/daughters that might have been a by-product of living with a BPD parent? 

[Mutt]

I met my step daughter when she was 5 years old, she was 13 when my ex left and she turned 16 this year. I also have a daughter with my ex partner (9) and two sons (7 and 3). She was the child that my ex partner sees as all black. I recall my ex partner being really hard on her to the point that I thought that it was over the line when she was 7 years old or so and I stepped in. In my family I was often split black and she as well.

After my ex partner left and moved her boyfriend in with the kids, my ex was idealizing the boyfriend and he was the replacement for dad. She was the person that my ex would project her negative feelings on and would display disproportionate anger on. I was the person that she would rage on and I was gone. The first year or so was very difficult, she attempted to take her life twice and was admitted to the psychiatric wing for observation and was released back to mom. She tried to hang herself and the second time she tried to throw herself out from the family van while my ex was driving. She went back a second time and this time they didn't release her to mom and they released her to her grandmother that lived several hours away.

My exSD14 was acting out at her grandmothers and was again scapegoated and was thrown out. She was cutting, drinking alcohol and drugs and was staying at home some times and often stayed with friends. There was a time she stayed with one of her friends mother for a few months. She decided that she could no longer tolerate her mother's abuse and moved at 16 and last I heard she's couch surfing. I chose to go to court for my kids because I saw the collateral damage a mother with BPD can do to a child over several years. Sadly, I'm not her real father and I can't help her.

[zundertowz]

My ex had 2 kids by 2 different fathers... .12 and 14.  The older one was a honor roll student but had anxiety, depression and was medicated which i disagreed with... .the youngest was transgender, a cutter, depressed, anxious, in a mental hospital for a few weeks after threatning suicide multiple times... .she had a severe abandonment issues due to both her parents going threw partners like candy i guess.  Knowing this my ex kicked me out and said if i contacted her kids she would get a PO on me... .she told her kids I left them for another women which was a lie... .what sick twisted person does that?  When told this the youngest freaked out and said I hope he kills himself... .well thats at least what she txted me.  She was more girlfriends with her kids then there mother.

[zundertowz]

The youngest showed major signs of BPD at 12. Was already sexually active and had new crushes every few months... .when one didnt wanna talk to her anymore she threatned suicide.

[zundertowz]

Forgot to mention I lived with them for 3 years and was not allowed to say goodbye... .

[Suzn]

what about those family members that are still in their company long after we left?

Is there someone you left behind Fanny?

[FannyB]

what about those family members that are still in their company long after we left?

Is there someone you left behind Fanny?

Hi Suzn

She had 2 kids. Got on great with the youngest one who struggles to cope whenever he feels 'happy' - like he thinks he doesn't deserve it or it will be taken away. Not sure what this indicative of? 

Older child lacks identity due to vacillating between being mother's friend and confidante between relationships - but being emotionally discarded when new bf appears and idealization kicks off. 

However bad it's been for us, it's gotta be worse for those who lack the coping skills to process the emotional carnage they witness on a daily basis?

[Suzn]

I would think a child that fears happiness has suffered through many losses and doesn't know how to cope with them. What do you think?

Our exs sound similar. Two children, the youngest of them I was very close to. He was fixated on time. always chalk this up to the fact that she didn't have custody of him and only had visitation. She had custody of her oldest who had a different father. The oldest was her best friend too and took her side and was mad at me whenever her mom is mad at me.

I met them when the youngest was 4. He hadn't spoke much before I met him apparently. My ex and her daughter were quite surprised when he just started talking to me, I just thought he was a normal little 4 year old. We connected right away and it still sticks with me that the reason we connected so quickly is because I fed him. Just a basic need. The first weekend we were all together there was a snowstorm and we were snowed in for the weekend and I cooked a ham. He ate that all day.

Apparently he had never bonded with his mother, he bonded with me. We took him to the doctor once because he was sick and I held him the whole time in the waiting room and that made a big impression on him. He told me later that day "you held me." Of course I did, I was the nurturer. I hug them when they were hurt, my ex would always freak out when the children got hurt and yell for me to come fix it. I always did anyway. She was a nurse.  

Suffice it to say, saying goodbye to these children especially youngest was the hardest thing I've ever had to do. I was lucky in the end that I was able to talk with him about not seeing him anymore always remember and never forget that I loved him and that no matter what anyone said to never forget that I love him. He got that, he was old enough in the end to understand.

My coping skills at the time were fairly poor, I went through a really deep depression that lasted about three months. It was shortly after that that I found these boards and found a T for support.

You say you got along well with the youngest, were you close? How did you cope with this loss?

[going places]

We all know the damage our BPD SOs did to us or we wouldn't be on these boards talking about it!  

But what about those family members that are still in their company long after we left? What traits did you observe in your beloved's sons/daughters that might have been a by-product of living with a BPD parent?  

Kids were 24, 23, 20 when ex and I finally parted (ok I threw him out).

Traits? By-Product?

Well they were raised by me, with their dad in the home, all their lives.

Yes, I can see the effects of the poor example their father set.

Yes, I can see the effects of the poor choices I made.

And it sucks. And I hate it.

One child had a crush on a boy 'just like her dad'. The kid is a dirtbag and treated her like trash.

After a year... .she finally came to her senses.

The boy she is crushing on now treats her the way a woman should be treated (it's a healthy relationship)

Selfish; to the point you want to punch her in the face. (not really, but it's frustrating! HA HA)

One child has HUGE trust issues; keeps things to themselves, is very skeptical. Keeps to himself, and does not "really connect" emotionally in a deep way... .keeps his guard up, and his wall up.

One child struggles with making decisions. Gets stuck, and won't just do something... .wants to put the head in the sand and it all go away. "If I don't think about it or talk about it, it's not there" kind of stuff. Makes a lot of excuses, and blames others a lot.

Their lives were smashed when (at 21,20,18) they found out their dad was a monster.

They wonder if any part of their lives was real, or just him 'pretending'.

They watched me turn into someone they didn't know... .

And after I threw him out, watched him "forget" about them: never calling, infrequent shallow texts, maybe an email now and then.

That hurts.

I pray, every day, the Lord will heal their hearts and minds... .

What happened to them was cruel, and evil.

[FannyB]

I met my step daughter when she was 5 years old, she was 13 when my ex left and she turned 16 this year. I also have a daughter with my ex partner (9) and two sons (7 and 3). She was the child that my ex partner sees as all black. I recall my ex partner being really hard on her to the point that I thought that it was over the line when she was 7 years old or so and I stepped in. In my family I was often split black and she as well.

After my ex partner left and moved her boyfriend in with the kids, my ex was idealizing the boyfriend and he was the replacement for dad. She was the person that my ex would project her negative feelings on and would display disproportionate anger on. I was the person that she would rage on and I was gone. The first year or so was very difficult, she attempted to take her life twice and was admitted to the psychiatric wing for observation and was released back to mom. She tried to hang herself and the second time she tried to throw herself out from the family van while my ex was driving. She went back a second time and this time they didn't release her to mom and they released her to her grandmother that lived several hours away.

My exSD14 was acting out at her grandmothers and was again scapegoated and was thrown out. She was cutting, drinking alcohol and drugs and was staying at home some times and often stayed with friends. There was a time she stayed with one of her friends mother for a few months. She decided that she could no longer tolerate her mother's abuse and moved at 16 and last I heard she's couch surfing. I chose to go to court for my kids because I saw the collateral damage a mother with BPD can do to a child over several years. Sadly, I'm not her real father and I can't help her.

Mutt

That's a terrible tale of the damage that emotional abuse can do to a young person. It may sound absurd to some, but we on these boards really are the lucky ones in all this as we can grow and move forward. Maybe it's true that borderlines begat borderlines?   

[FannyB]

My ex had 2 kids by 2 different fathers... .12 and 14.  The older one was a honor roll student but had anxiety, depression and was medicated which i disagreed with... .the youngest was transgender, a cutter, depressed, anxious, in a mental hospital for a few weeks after threatning suicide multiple times... .she had a severe abandonment issues due to both her parents going threw partners like candy i guess.  Knowing this my ex kicked me out and said if i contacted her kids she would get a PO on me... .she told her kids I left them for another women which was a lie... .what sick twisted person does that?  When told this the youngest freaked out and said I hope he kills himself... .well thats at least what she txted me.  She was more girlfriends with her kids then there mother.

Zundertowz

Don't know about BPD but she sounds borderline evil to me.   I can understand why some posters think that their exes choose to behave this way rather than be at the mercy of their disorder.

[FannyB]

You say you got along well with the youngest, were you close? How did you cope with this loss?

Hi Suzn

He's a teenager so I can still check in occasionally via social media. A total disconnect would have been hard for me. I've high hopes that he'll emerge from this ok - as long as he makes sound relationship choices that is! 

[Pretty Woman]

The families tend to be total enablers.

DO NOT EVER TELL A FAMILY MEMBER YOU THINK YOUR "PERSON" HAS BPD.

BAD IDEA.

I work with my BPD ex's sister and we used to be friends and work directly with each other. I am so grateful I switched departments when we started dating.

I have been threatened by the sister that she is going to HR and my boss if I even look at her funny. It has not been a great experience... .

coupled with the fact all three sisters are estranged from each other, two don't speak with their father and the mother is cold, distant and I think a classic BPD herself... .she seems to thrive off pitting them against each other.

Definitely unstable and probably the biggest   I missed.

[FannyB]

The families tend to be total enablers.

DO NOT EVER TELL A FAMILY MEMBER YOU THINK YOUR "PERSON" HAS BPD.

BAD IDEA.

I work with my BPD ex's sister and we used to be friends and work directly with each other. I am so grateful I switched departments when we started dating.

I have been threatened by the sister that she is going to HR and my boss if I even look at her funny. It has not been a great experience... .

coupled with the fact all three sisters are estranged from each other, two don't speak with their father and the mother is cold, distant and I think a classic BPD herself... .she seems to thrive off pitting them against each other.

Definitely unstable and probably the biggest  I missed.

Thanks for the tip Pretty Woman.  I wouldn't do that as it would be counter productive on so many different levels. I can understand those that do though and I've yet to hear of a happy ending because of it. 

[Pretty Woman]

Fanny, plus they gaslight you as this "holy terror" to everyone to gain sympathy when dumping you. Trust me. These people have formed very negative opinions about you that your sig other hid from you that they were telling them.

[Mutt]

I met my step daughter when she was 5 years old, she was 13 when my ex left and she turned 16 this year. I also have a daughter with my ex partner (9) and two sons (7 and 3). She was the child that my ex partner sees as all black. I recall my ex partner being really hard on her to the point that I thought that it was over the line when she was 7 years old or so and I stepped in. In my family I was often split black and she as well.

After my ex partner left and moved her boyfriend in with the kids, my ex was idealizing the boyfriend and he was the replacement for dad. She was the person that my ex would project her negative feelings on and would display disproportionate anger on. I was the person that she would rage on and I was gone. The first year or so was very difficult, she attempted to take her life twice and was admitted to the psychiatric wing for observation and was released back to mom. She tried to hang herself and the second time she tried to throw herself out from the family van while my ex was driving. She went back a second time and this time they didn't release her to mom and they released her to her grandmother that lived several hours away.

My exSD14 was acting out at her grandmothers and was again scapegoated and was thrown out. She was cutting, drinking alcohol and drugs and was staying at home some times and often stayed with friends. There was a time she stayed with one of her friends mother for a few months. She decided that she could no longer tolerate her mother's abuse and moved at 16 and last I heard she's couch surfing. I chose to go to court for my kids because I saw the collateral damage a mother with BPD can do to a child over several years. Sadly, I'm not her real father and I can't help her.

Mutt

That's a terrible tale of the damage that emotional abuse can do to a young person. It may sound absurd to some, but we on these boards really are the lucky ones in all this as we can grow and move forward. Maybe it's true that borderlines begat borderlines?  

Hi FannyB,

It was so hard to hear the news about my exSD. I agree that we're the lucky ones, I can divorce my ex and put tools in place like minimal contact and parallel parenting to stop the bleeding.

I had the opportunity to have a chat with her. I didn't shame her for the drugs and the alcohol, I can understand she's likely soothing pain. I mostly listened and validated. She had empathy and compassion for what her siblings ( my kids ) were going through. She was worried about what would happen to D9 after she moved out.

I saw a young woman that I didn't think was borderline, I didn't hear blaming or victimization. I felt anger and sadness that family members were taking mom's side and believing that their niece and granddaughter is all bad.

Adults that can't cope with their feelings of shame and project those feelings on a young woman. Friends of my exe distance themselves from my exSD and they believe my exes distortions that she's an out of control teenager.

A lesson I learned in this journey: the reverse side also has a reverse side. It surprises me at how many believe my exes distortions without thinking about my exSD and her side of the story.

[FannyB]

Fanny, plus they gaslight you as this "holy terror" to everyone to gain sympathy when dumping you. Trust me. These people have formed very negative opinions about you that your sig other hid from you that they were telling them.

It's their dysfunctional way of protecting themselves from the toxic shame of taking responsibility for their heinous actions! 

[Suzn]

He's a teenager so I can still check in occasionally via social media. A total disconnect would have been hard for me. I've high hopes that he'll emerge from this ok - as long as he makes sound relationship choices that is! 

That's fortunate. My little guy was almost 9 at the end. I tried spending time with him after the breakup and it turned into an abusive situation for him. She would ask me to do things for her in order to see him such as pick him up from school. I would have loved doing that but I work later than school lets out and explaining to his mother never worked well. She would end up telling me "then you can't see him at all today." She would turn around and tell him I didn't want to see him. (He told me this, this is where the "it doesn't matter what anyone says don't forget I love you (and I will always want to see you too) came in. I couldn't keep putting him through that. I think he knew better but I'm sure it was never easy to hear.

[StarOfTheSea]

My exBPDbf has a 9 year old little girl that he has full custody of. Her mom has a lot of psych issues and is a recovered (?) drug addict but she gets to see her every other weekend.

The main thing I noticed with his daughter was that she was the moodiest kid I've ever meet. She'd go from talking and laughing to in her room crying in the span of minutes. She also tried a lot of attention getting behavior because her dad would pretty much ignore her when she got home from school. She told me many times that  she didn't want to live her life anymore, she hated her life, etc. So add depression to childhood anxiety and whatever else. When she started school the teachers suspected she was autistic, which I believe. They wanted to put her in different classes but her dad wouldn't allow it. This poor kid has no friends, she barely gets along with kids at school and she is in no activities. It kills me that this little girl is in such pain and I can do nothing about it.

[FannyB]

My exBPDbf has a 9 year old little girl that he has full custody of. Her mom has a lot of psych issues and is a recovered (?) drug addict but she gets to see her every other weekend.

StarOfTheSea

My ex was superficially perfect, but used to refer to having to talk to her kids (i.e. parenting!) as 'draining'. I now know that every vestige of her emotional energy is invested in keeping herself afloat. If someone else wants her support then that becomes a burden that can push her over the edge. Sad really. 

[Dutched]

I see and experienced severe collateral damage.

As from a certain point I noticed there was not only a mutual upbringing as parents, but also a separate one, bedroom upbringing as I call it.

An outburst from exw that knocked me of my chair, resulted into devaluation remarks towards the kids of my behavior.

The so called ‘sweet little lies’.  For example, mom paying with cash as dad would become angry if mom uses the credit card.

Later, the same hollow and avoidant words being used as mom.

The emotional bonding was in a sense very avoidant towards mom.

When in emotional need, kids came towards me.

As S many times expressed, ‘mom comes with silly remarks when I am in pain’

Now S says ‘you know I can’t discuss with mom, she has strange ideas’.

D is a copy of mom, several outburst in her social circle. People addressing it to me as ‘having a severe temperament’. Towards dad outbursts, towards mom avoidant pleasing behaviour.

Meanwhile, I haven’t spoken D since several yrs., went with mom, and ‘rather lives in sorrow by not seeing me, than having sorrow as I can’t meet her expectations’…

Speaking from collateral damage.

There is scientific evidence that ‘it runs in families’ (genetic causes), that ‘mothers spread BPD’ by the way they interact with kids, already as baby.

www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC3268672/

[FannyB]

There is scientific evidence that ‘it runs in families’ (genetic causes), that ‘mothers spread BPD’ by the way they interact with kids, already as baby.

www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC3268672/

Dutched

Thanks for the insight - this is scary stuff!  :'(

Does this mean the entire world will be borderline in a few hundred years time? I'm pretty sure that the percentage of borderlines in society grows every year as modern life creates ideal conditions for the 'contagion' to spread. Increased social media usage also encourages kids to retreat into cyberspace rather than talking about any problems they may be having IMO. You can literally have a 1,000 'friends' on facebook and not 1 of them might attend your funeral if you died - all seems bizarre to me.

[going places]

I see and experienced severe collateral damage.

As from a certain point I noticed there was not only a mutual upbringing as parents, but also a separate one, bedroom upbringing as I call it.

An outburst from exw that knocked me of my chair, resulted into devaluation remarks towards the kids of my behavior.

The so called ‘sweet little lies’.  For example, mom paying with cash as dad would become angry if mom uses the credit card.

Later, the same hollow and avoidant words being used as mom.

The emotional bonding was in a sense very avoidant towards mom.

When in emotional need, kids came towards me.

As S many times expressed, ‘mom comes with silly remarks when I am in pain’

Now S says ‘you know I can’t discuss with mom, she has strange ideas’.

D is a copy of mom, several outburst in her social circle. People addressing it to me as ‘having a severe temperament’. Towards dad outbursts, towards mom avoidant pleasing behaviour.

Meanwhile, I haven’t spoken D since several yrs., went with mom, and ‘rather lives in sorrow by not seeing me, than having sorrow as I can’t meet her expectations’…

Speaking from collateral damage.

There is scientific evidence that ‘it runs in families’ (genetic causes), that ‘mothers spread BPD’ by the way they interact with kids, already as baby.

www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC3268672/

Is BPD a 'learned' behavior? Or is it something more physiological?

Because if BPD is "learned" behavior; meaning that it is a disorder that is learned by example, that also means that you can "un-learn" it.

For example, if dad was an alcoholic, and gramps was an alcoholic, and the uncles and aunts are all alcoholics, and YOU choose that same road... .you can also, unchoose it. You can get clean, stay sober and no one would know that you ever struggled with booze?

I was under the impression BPD was more genetic... .un-curable.

[going places]

There is scientific evidence that ‘it runs in families’ (genetic causes), that ‘mothers spread BPD’ by the way they interact with kids, already as baby.

www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC3268672/

Dutched

Thanks for the insight - this is scary stuff!  :'(

Does this mean the entire world will be borderline in a few hundred years time? I'm pretty sure that the percentage of borderlines in society grows every year as modern life creates ideal conditions for the 'contagion' to spread

I would say because of the chemicals in our food, drink, vaccines, and our water supply THAT is why we will see in increase in sickness; mental and physical.

Couple that with parents no longer parenting, babies having babies, mommy's injesting hideous amounts of chemicals while pregnant... .and A LOT of mommy's choosing drugs and alcohol while pregnant... .

I'd say chemical poisoning, moral decay, and lack of self-control will be the future generations demise.

Increased social media usage also encourages kids to retreat into cyberspace rather than talking about any problems they may be having IMO. You can literally have a 1,000 'friends' on facebook and not 1 of them might attend your funeral if you died - all seems bizarre to me.

Back when I was a kid the "TV" was the baby sitter. Plop the kid in front of the idiot box, and mommy's could gab on the phone, gossip across the fence, etc... .as long as she liked.

That generation trained the next to get hooked on video games, and the internet.

Gadgets galore!

Next time you go to the grocery store, hardware store, garden store; look and see how many people pushing strollers or have small children in the cart... .are on their phones, either talking or 'social media-ing' or texting.

Are all of these children going to grow up with a PD?

[Mutt]

what about those family members that are still in their company long after we left?

Is there someone you left behind Fanny?

Hi Suzn

She had 2 kids. Got on great with the youngest one who struggles to cope whenever he feels 'happy' - like he thinks he doesn't deserve it or it will be taken away. Not sure what this indicative of?  

Older child lacks identity due to vacillating between being mother's friend and confidante between relationships - but being emotionally discarded when new bf appears and idealization kicks off.  

However bad it's been for us, it's gotta be worse for those who lack the coping skills to process the emotional carnage they witness on a daily basis?

Hi FannyB,

I think we're getting into the macro-level and let's focus on the topic at hand?

You got accounts from other members.

How do you feel about your exe's kids and what they have to cope with domestically? They're kids right and not a contagion?

Do you feel loss or grief? I felt anger that my SD didn't have someone in her corner and I couldn't be that person because I'm not her father. I couldn't fight for shared custody. I was angry at her dad because he had abandoned her many years before and was judging his daughter at face value as a difficult child.

I think it's hard enough being a teenager and the things she had to cope with at home is not something I would want for a child. If only he had walked a mile in her shoes.

Thoughts?

[Dutched]

Going places, you are correct that BPD is more genetic. Pls. see.

www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2008/12/081216114100.htm?utm_source=feedburner&utm_medium=feed&utm_campaign=Feed%3A+sciencedaily%2Fmind_brain%2Fborderline_personality_disorder

In an ongoing study of the health and lifestyles of families with twins in the Netherlands, Trull and colleagues examined 711 pairs of siblings and 561 parents to identify the location of genetic traits that influences the manifestation of BPD. The researchers conducted a genetic linkage analysis of the families and identified chromosomal regions that could contain genes that influence the development of BPD. Trull found the strongest evidence for a genetic influence on BPD features on chromosome nine.

In a previous study, Trull and research colleagues examined data from 5,496 twins in the Netherlands, Belgium and Australia to assess the extent of genetic influence on the manifestation of BPD features. The research team found that 42 percent of variation in BPD features was attributable to genetic influences and 58 percent was attributable to environmental influences, and this was consistent across the three countries. In addition, Trull and colleagues found that there was no significant difference in heritability rates between men and women, and that young adults displayed more BPD features then older adults.

The article in question, ‘mothers spread BPD’, shows that children are more likely develop a maladaptive way of expressing and managing emotions, a disordered bonding due to mother’s nurturing , interaction, behaviour, etc., which could cause issues when the child is grown up.

We have the genetic cause of a 42%

We have scientific results that the hippocampus (by 22%) and amygdale (by 13%) are smaller than average

Psychiatry Res. 2003 Apr 1;122(3):193-8. Schmahl CG, Vermetten E, Elzinga BM, Douglas Bremner J.

Department of Psychiatry and Psychotherapy, University of Freiburg Medical School, Hauptstrasse 5, D-79104 Freiburg, Germany. christian_schmahl@psyallg.ukl.uni-freiburg.de

We have scientific results that pwBPD indeed reacts on and processes different.

We know about traumatic events (severe abuse) that could cause ‘issues’.

You mention artificial food additives, genetic modified food

What I'm trying to say.

We see a lot of explanations and evidence that might help us understanding and take accordingly appropriate steps, but the surveys conducted were with diagnosed pwBPD.

Did we know at the time?

Many/most (ex)partners of members on the board aren’t diagnosed

Many/most members start searching after the break up because of the ‘odd’ behaviour and breakup.

Those with kids indeed starts to question the possible impact of the (ex)partner on the kids, as the parent see similarities in behaviour not appropriate with age, IQ, etc.

So I think it is most important with kids to be alert, give them stability, boundaries, validate and cuddle.

In my case, moms bedroom upbringing as I call it, was of great influence. Despite my strong boundaries kids tried so hard to undermine the family values via mom. Mom, many times giving in to her love-objects behind dads back, causing upheaval in the r/s because of the kids.

Even justifying actions of D towards S, leaving S devastated, invalidated en desperate looking for understanding as dad came home… terrible when those memories come up!

Anyway, as in my earlier comment, both kids…

[FannyB]

How do you feel about your exe's kids and what they have to cope with domestically? They're kids right and not a contagion?

Mutt

If BPD can be spread via environmental factors then the illness is indeed a contagion.  I feel sad for all parties involved actually, as her heart is in the right place but her actions can inadvertently damage. She definitely loves her kids, but how can you nurture teenagers, when keeping yourself going is a daily struggle? 

Also, it must be hard to diagnose BPD in teenagers as much of their 'normal' behaviour (selfishness, inability to take responsibility etc.) could be mistaken for BPD.  Like I said previously, I've high hopes that the younger kid will be ok in the long run as he has sound social skills.