Projection, or no?

[Ceruleanblue]

Yet another setback. Tonight I asked BPDh a simple question, and he got angry. I tried to talk to him(I shouldn't have), and he ended up calling me needy. It's like he thinks if he hurts me, he wins?

What's ironic, is that I think he's SUPER NEEDY, but I never throw it in his face, and I've never had a problem with it. Why would I? It's not to the point that I feel smothered, and why would he have married me if he has zero need to be with me or be around me.

Is this projection? I really think he does think I'm needy, because I need reassurance sometimes, and he resents giving it, in fact he usually won't give it. We read a book about women's needs a couple  years ago, and bingo, on the list was reassurance! He's forgotten that, and I only need reassurance because of all his threats, and because his grown girls try to break up our marriage, and he's totally enmeshed with them(until they cut him off... .trying to get him to leave me again).

Also what is funny is that almost none of my needs are being met in our marriage, and he knows this. I compromise more than I should, and strive to meet his every need, while my own go unmet. It gets tiring, especially when he still obviously is wanting to paint me black.

Do BPD people project things that they really do themselves? Could this be an instance of that? I think he'd view any woman as needy, and I keep reminding myself of that, but he really hit a nerve this time.

[RELATIONSHIP PROBLEM SOLVING]

RELATIONSHIP PROBLEM SOLVING This is a high level discussion board for solving ongoing, day-to-day relationship conflicts. Members are welcomed to express frustration but must seek constructive solutions to problems. This is not a place for relationship "stay" or "leave" discussions. Please read the specific guidelines for this group.

[married21years]

if he is needy and you are not then it is projection

its a defense mechanism as is anger. anger is a secondary emotion to replace the primary emotion

[Ceruleanblue]

I don't think I'm overly needy. He finds me needing any reassurance annoying and "needy", but he fails to understand that I wouldn't need any reassurance if he hadn't drug me into this chaos. That is sort of why I feel this may be projection because I think maybe deep down he knows he's hard to live with, and he wants things his way. He doesn't feel the need to be reassured because I've just always done that for him, and I've always been very committed to the marriage.

I'm still upset at him, and I'm halfway flirting with the idea of splitting time between where we moved away from and here. My son stayed behind(thanks to BPDh), and I'm sort of sick of spending time with someone who has such negative views of me. His negativity is wearing me down, and if he thinks I'm "needy", maybe he needs to see just how well I do without him. Maybe he says things like this to push me away too? I hadn't thought of that, but that is a distinct possibility. He and his ex did "breaks" for their entire 24 year, totally dysfunctional marriage.

[married21years]

projection is a defense mechanism, in a conversation if he projects on to you just say this is not about me!



you need to know who you are to know if it is projection. maybe a bit of gaslighting.

[Surg_Bear]

It is my experience that nearly 100% of what a pwBPD says about their partner's emotions or experience is a projection.

Unless it is verifiable by an objective fact, it is projection.

Example:

"It's 8:45 and it takes 25 minutes to get to work- you're late!"

- not a projection

"You're late for work- it's 8:45- that's why [you're being mean and hateful] insert ANY emotional feeling - positive OR negative"

- projection

How they have such charm and / or such wickedness depends solely on how deeply their projection resonates with your inner world at any given moment.

Just about everything they say about outside persons is a road map of their inner world. EVERYTHING.

Except maybe in a moment of clarity. Most never experience a moment of clarity in their entire lives.

Recognizing that that their complaint is not about you, but how they are truly feeling- that is how an effective validation is formed. Being able to see this, is how you can use it to validate how they are in any given moment. You can soothe a monster by taking the terrible things they say about you, and see that they are screaming at themselves.

Always

Surg_Bear

[vortex of confusion]

I am thinking about this from a slightly different angle.

Why does it matter if it is projection?

What does your reality tell you about your level of neediness? How do you perceive this?

You have checked with yourself and identified that you don't think you are needy and that any neediness that you have is a result of his behavior.

How would things be different if you could find a way to address your need for reassurance without involving him? Is that even possible? What do you need him to reassure you about? That he loves you? That he isn't going to leave you?

Technically speaking, everybody is needy. Every single person alive has needs, the need for air, water, etc. That is why there is a hierarchy of needs. Yes, you need things. Can you identify ways to get your needs met without him? I know that isn't the ideal situation. I have been wrestling with this same thing. I have needs. I want my partner to meet them. My partner can't meet those needs for me. What can I do about it?

[Notwendy]

I think the Patricia Evans' books on verbal abuse and controlling people will help you with this.

Projection or not? That is something to consider, but also, whatever he is thinking, tactics like deciding who you are, and what you feel are boundary violations.

I think it is projections but even if not, this is not the way to speak respectfully to someone.

Maybe you have a friend who is needy- would you speak to them like this- even if it is true? She didn't ask your opinion, or ask you for help. Do you get to just step into her private space and call her needy? Now, if she asked you for advice or help, maybe you would bring it up, or if she was being needy to you you could not be available all the time.

Most people don't like being spoken to like this. Do you have someone who is overweight in your life? How would they like it if you said to them."You eat too much".

The books I mentioned can help you learn how to deal with these boundary violations. Your H does not get to define you.

[Ceruleanblue]

I've read Patricia Evans' book. It was a great help, and I do think it's projection on some level, but I think it's also possible that he truly thinks it of me. Like you stated though, that doesn't make it okay to say. He says it with the intent to hurt me.

It just makes me feel like he's having these views of me all the time, and when he's dysregulated, the truth of how he feels about me comes out. I'm seriously thinking: Why am I still here? I've sacrificed living with my son, I apologized to his PD daughters(most humiliating thing in my life, and it got thrown in my face), and I'm still painted black? He's been physical with me on several occasions, and because he's disordered, I hung in there. Most wouldn't, and I feel he should have a small amount of gratitude about that. He should look for good in me as I do him. He can't or won't though.

I guess most things are easier to deal with than having a husband who doesn't truly know me. I'm just things he creates in his head. To him, I'm his perception of me, not the reality that is me. He doesn't judge me by my actions, he judges me by his skewed picture in his head. I can do something nice, he ascribes mean motives behind it. How do you fight or contest that? I don't even try anymore.

I have boundaries with him now, since we got back together after almost divorcing. That cost us both legal fees. I did all the agreeing to things HE wanted, but I'm the needy one? I can't remember being this angry at him, other than when he put me in a place of making me choose my marriage or my son. My son is better off not around him, and I'm thinking maybe I am too.

I want this to work, but at what price? I can live with a lot of crap, and am learning how to dance around it, but does that mean I should have to? Does it mean I should have to take up yet more and more slack because I can, and he won't? DBT has helped with the anger, to some extent, but he's still slinging insults at me, and having such negative views of me. I KNOW what I am, and what I am not, and I like who I am, I don't need this constant crap.

[vortex of confusion]

I want this to work, but at what price? I can live with a lot of crap, and am learning how to dance around it, but does that mean I should have to? Does it mean I should have to take up yet more and more slack because I can, and he won't? DBT has helped with the anger, to some extent, but he's still slinging insults at me, and having such negative views of me. I KNOW what I am, and what I am not, and I like who I am, I don't need this constant crap.

   

This stuff is hard. You don't have to do anything. I have had these same thoughts. I have gotten so blasted angry because I find myself making yet another concession. Stop making the concessions if you don't want to do it. Don't do it because you think you should. Do it because you genuinely want to do it.

Somebody once told me that when I find myself getting angry, look at the source of it within myself. Sure, my husband is being a jerk. That isn't going to change. Can I live with him the way he is right now at this very minute?

Are there other boundaries or things that you can do to get away from him when he starts with the insults? He probably isn't going to stop. It sucks. That is the reality of it unless you can find a way to institute a boundary that sends a loud and clear message that you aren't going to hang around to listen to that kind of BS.

Can you go spend a week or two with your son and get a break from him?

[Surg_Bear]

I agree with most of what has been said.

The big picture thing that you, CBlue, are struggling with is what I have going on in my head... .Why does it always have to be me to put forth the extra effort? My plate is full with my own crap. Why is it a given, that for the relationship to work / stay together in some reasonable way, I have to help with her crap, too?

I received a response to one of my posts from a moderator once, cautioning me to call this a burden. It is healthier to view it as a choice- my choice.  That is true. But, it invalidates my need for equivalent accountability.

If a 100 lb box has to be carried up three flights of stairs by me, and then by a co-worker - both of us carrying a 100 lb load three flights of stairs each.  I accept my load as my duty.  If my co-worker cannot do his share, but I can do it for him, I can choose to carry the box and extra three flights of stairs. It IS my choice, yes. But, it still weighs 100 lbs, and I have to take it up three more flights of stairs. The load is the same, but the added work of three extra flight of stairs, after expending the energy of doing my three flights of stairs- that, in my opinion is the burden. Yes, I chose to do it- for my reasons (the work needs to be done, I want to keep my job, etc... ). But I have every right to feel this was an unfair burden passed on to me by my co-worker. That burden would not exist, if it was my job, in the first place, to carry the load up six flights of stairs.

Sometimes, the work of going those three extra flights of stairs would be less of a chore for me- if only my co-worker would acknowledge my effort, or somehow, be accountable for the fact that I'm always having to do the extra work- usually behind the scenes, tip toeing on eggshells, avoiding land mines planted on the stairs, just to get the job done; without having to hear how I'm doing it wrong, how it offends my co-worker, or I'm too needy, or too fat, or whatever.

Nobody knows, nobody sees, and the tree falling in the forest makes a huge sound to the person standing next to it.

Well, VOC, and CBlue- I see you doing those extra flights of stairs for him.  You are amazing for doing it. Beautiful and sexy too.  Because your crazy husbands can't do it for themselves... .

THANK YOU for all that you do to keep your marriages afloat.  You are heroes, in my book.

I've walked in your shoes and I know how lonely it feels.

Love,

Surg_Bear

[vortex of confusion]

I received a response to one of my posts from a moderator once, cautioning me to call this a burden. It is healthier to view it as a choice- my choice.  That is true. But, it invalidates my need for equivalent accountability.

Not sure how to explain this. If you need equivalent accountability, then staying in the relationship is going to be very difficult. I think it was somebody here that posted something about increasing accountability through boundaries. However, a relationship with a person with BPD or BPD traits will very likely never be equal in the traditional sense.

It is okay to have that as a non-negotiable in a relationship. If that is something that is a non-negotiable for you, then it isn't likely that the relationship will work. It is about identifying what your needs are and finding ways to get them met. If there is a non-negotiable need that you have that you can't get from your partner, then find other places to get it met or leave the relationship.

In the lessons, there is one about the do's and don'ts ( https://bpdfamily.com/message_board/index.php?topic=62266.0 )

Realistic Expectations: A person with BPD is emotionally underdeveloped and does not have "adult" emotional skills - especially in times of stress.  If you are in this type of relationship it is important to have realistic expectations for what the relationship can be in terms of consistent respect, trust and support, honesty and accountability, and in terms of negotiation and fairness, or expectations of non-threatening behavior.  It is important to accept the relationship behavior for what it is - not hope the person will permanently return to the idealization phase, not accept the external excuses for the bad behavior, and not hope that changing your behavior to heal someone else.

There is another one about magical thinking but I couldn't find it. The gist is that saying things like, "If my partner would do X, then things wouldn't be like this." That is magical thinking. My partner is going to do X no matter how many times I say that I don't like it. I can try to set a boundary to protect myself from X. Hoping that my partner will do X is futile. It is kind of like saying that you want your partner to be somebody other than who he/she is.

(You can remind me of this when I get in this mind set. I can guarantee that I will find myself thinking these things at some point again. And that will tell me that I haven't radically accepted things yet.)

Nobody knows, nobody sees, and the tree falling in the forest makes a huge sound to the person standing next to it.

Yep, it makes a huge sound. Telling it not to fall or to be quiet isn't going to work.  You have to find ways to protect yourself from the falling tree. 

[waverider]

If a 100 lb box has to be carried up three flights of stairs by me, and then by a co-worker - both of us carrying a 100 lb load three flights of stairs each.  I accept my load as my duty.  If my co-worker cannot do his share, but I can do it for him, I can choose to carry the box and extra three flights of stairs. It IS my choice, yes. But, it still weighs 100 lbs, and I have to take it up three more flights of stairs. The load is the same, but the added work of three extra flight of stairs, after expending the energy of doing my three flights of stairs- that, in my opinion is the burden. Yes, I chose to do it- for my reasons (the work needs to be done, I want to keep my job, etc... ). But I have every right to feel this was an unfair burden passed on to me by my co-worker. That burden would not exist, if it was my job, in the first place, to carry the load up six flights of stairs.

Sometimes, the work of going those three extra flights of stairs would be less of a chore for me- if only my co-worker would acknowledge my effort, or somehow, be accountable for the fact that I'm always having to do the extra work- usually behind the scenes, tip toeing on eggshells, avoiding land mines planted on the stairs, just to get the job done; without having to hear how I'm doing it wrong, how it offends my co-worker, or I'm too needy, or too fat, or whatever.

The part about being a choice means you have made it your choice, hence you have gone through the bigger process of deciding why it was your choice. In the bigger picture to be content with choices you have worked out your payoff, which maybe elsewhere. Otherwise its not really a sound choice, your are just kidding yourself and trying to be a martyr and rename a burden as a choice.

The hard part is how to make it a choice, that is not easy, there is more to it than just renaming it. It takes a bigger understanding and acceptance of the big picture, rather than reacting to the moment. It usually takes use of strong boundaries in other areas.

Neediness is hard to fight, you don't have to take it on in all areas, but making a strong stand in certain areas and choosing to let it float in minor issues, makes it a "choice' under ceratin situations.

[waverider]

A lot of projection is just mirroring, they often don't have a real understanding of the meaning of things. Hence the mirroring/projection is often misapplied. They just know it as a blaming tool.

It can also become an effective way of baiting/triggering the other person to react and join in the conflict allowing them to switch back to victim mode

[Ceruleanblue]

I've agreed to stay, which to me will always mean a carry a heavier load. The issue I'm having is that while I knew that, and accepted that when we reconciled, I now feel like he's expecting more all the time. It's like because I told him I loved him as is(radical acceptance), that it's now like he thinks no matter what he throws at me or asks of me, I'll just do it. This is where boundaries come in, but he just seems to need more and more. Enforcing boundaries is tiring too!

We talked tonight, and he handled it really well for the most part. Not much anger, and he seemed to want to find a solution, but he couldn't come up with anything, and I'm tapped out for now. I can't crawl in his head and change his negativity towards me, only he can change that, and he has to want to.

He said he feels whenever I ask him to do something that I'm demanding that he do it. I'm the least demanding person, and I use language that is clearly me asking, not demanding. See, again he wants to feel/think the negative. How do you live with a partner that you can't ask to do anything? How bizarre is that? He said it was only in certain situations that he doesn't like me asking him to do something, but I gave examples, and he had to acknowledge that it is across the board... .he just doesn't like to be asked to do things. He's had issues with so many bosses too, and his guys under him hate him, unfortunately(but with reason, I'm sure).

I have agreed to pick up the slack when I radically accepted him, but I wasn't agreeing for it to be so off balance. We discussed this too. I want more than 95/5 in our marriage. I told him I'd like it to be more like a 80/20 at least. I know it's hard for him to compromise, and he has a deep desire and need to control, and I'm mostly okay with that, but even I have limits. And I also told him a little acknowledgement of my efforts would be greatly appreciated. I don't feel like continuing to do all this, take all this, if there is never any acknowledgement! Be nice to me, and I'll move mountains for you, but keep kicking me in the teeth, and I'll eventually get fed up. I'm longsuffering, but I'm not stupid.

He says we'll address it in MC. Oh, and he also wants me again to ask my psychiatrist if I have any type of PD(he again says he was only told he has characteristics of BPD), because I guess he doesn't want to be alone in this, or he wants to blame me more? He says he read the list of BPD traits and I exhibit some. I was suicidal for a brief time, due to all this, but I got in therapy, and got it confirmed that he's gaslighting me and more. If I had it, I would deal with it, but we see the same psychiatrist, and I had to ask him to put me on an antidepressant just to deal with all this stress. BPDh's anger was extreme, and his official diagnosis(funny how he didn't mention that tonight) is Intermittent Explosive Disorder. Heck, I'd rather have BPD than that.

I guess we all hit low points in dealing with pwBPD? I just need to figure out how to deal with his totally wrong opinions of me and my character? I don't judge him harshly for having PD, and I see him as HIM, not his PD. At least he's officially been notified I'd like a little more balance(even though it'll still be grossly off balance still), and I also asked him how is it healthy for him to expect me to never ask things of him, and for him to resent me having any needs. He has no answers, but at least he wants to address it in therapy. I guess that's something.

[MaybeSo]

It's like because I told him I loved him as is(radical acceptance), that it's now like he thinks no matter what he throws at me or asks of me,

Keep in mind that radical acceptance isn't tied to staying or going. It's also not tied to accepting abuse or being a martyr.

It's a way of accepting the reality of what is happening in the moment, as your reality, and your responsibility.  This actually makes you better at taking care of yourself and understanding your own boundaries and how to protect them.   I got better when I radically accepted certain harsh realities about the person in my life with these traits.  Radical Acceptance is the antidote to magical thinking.  It's very very grown-up thinking.  My person isn't even in my life right now, but I still practice radical acceptance about what is.  Not what I wish for, but what is. It catapultes you into taking full respsonsibility for your own life and your own happiness.   A huge part of prolonged suffering is fighting against the reality of what is factual and real and present.  My partner is not able to meet a lot of my needs.  That's a reality.  That's what's happening, that is what is here.  It's not going to change.  It isn't just going to go away.  I radically accept this, because it's real.  I am not wishing it away.  I am not saying things to myself that suggest I can only be happy when this changes, I am not bargaining with myself that way.   I am accepting reality as it is, in or out of the relationship.  Radical Acceptance also doesn't mean accepting abuse or tolerating more and more dysfunctional behavior from someone.  Radical acceptance is a way you take care of your own internal state of mind by not fooling yourself and self soothing with what is reality... .but if someone is crossing a boundary, you still take care of that boundary for yourself.  If you are not fooling yourself or engaging in magical thinking... .(if I put up with more crap he will eventually appreciate it and be nicer to me) ... .b/c that kind of thinking leads to more suffering.   I radically accept that my partner is super critical of me when he dysregulates.  So I do things to protect myself with that reality in mind. I stopped being so shocked when he behaved in ways consistent with who he showed me to be, over and over and over.  Instead of feeling shocked and personalizing it and lamenting how bad he treats me... .I started focusing on what I need to do for myself based on my radical acceptance of what is and what I as an adult am choosing. With that acceptance... .now what do I want to do to take super good care of myself.  That is my responsibility, not my partners.

I have agreed to pick up the slack when I radically accepted him,

Radical acceptance isn't really about picking up the slack.  It's about taking care of yourself.  You should always be taking care of yourself. That's your responsibility.  With or without him in your life.

The personality disorder many of us on this board have traits of... .is dependent personality.

That has nothing to do with being dependent necessarily on someone financially, or not being able to do things for yourself.  Most codep's I know are crazy busy juggling a mil;ion different things.  It's not about being capable. Co's are very capable, hyper capable, really.  As in... .picking up the slack and over functioning for others who are under functioning.  This helps the person who is under functioning to keep underfunctioning... .why would I learn to function better when I have a  codep in my life who is willing to pick up the slack and over function for me?

this is about taking care of yourself emotionally.  It speaks to the kind of codependent stuff that most of us come with on this board. Most folks who are used to taking really good care of themselves emotionally, don't spend a lot of time on this board.  Or, they stay on the board but they really get it, that this is about them.  Not their partners antics.  Expecting a mentally ill person to meet your emotional needs isn't going to ever work.  There is a dependency issue that goes on with many of us here. We got certain unrealistic needs met maybe in the very beginning of the relationship, it hooked us in, and we keep thinking we will get that back if we give and give and give enough to this person.  Or, maybe we had an adult in our childhood that we had to take care of in some way and we are use to being in this role of picking up the slack for someone else.  Something about it is familiar. 

Everyone 'projects'.  All couples 'project' crap onto eachother at times.  It's not the projection.  It's how firm you are in your own sense of self. Projection drives folks nuts who are not grounded in their own sense of self, who are not feeling secure in their sense of self.  Here's a non reactive response to his claim that you are too needy.  "Yes, you are right, I am".  B/c from his stand point, you ARE too needy.  that makes perfect sense.  So what?   How much it derails you, bothers you, gets you JADING, gets you outside yourself... .relates to how hooked into a projection you are.   That fact is, the person I know with this disorder finds EVERYONE to be too needy.  Relating requires a lot of emotional muscle and a lot of sophisticated skills, it's a lot of work... .the reality is, most of the time he just really doesn't have what it takes to really be in a reciprocal relationship at all.  He can play nice for a while, but real relating is just a pain in the ass and requires skills he doens't have.   He just doesn't have it in him to do that.   

So, a partner will seem needy to him, b/c partner's keep asking for things he can't give and can't do.

So... .you are needy, from his perspective.  I am, too.  We all are. So what?  Don't personalize this stuff.  Projections don't bother you much when you are really grounded in your own sense of self, you practice radical acceptance about what is (he's not a giver so he will experience me as too needy) and are not pinging off what comes out of his mouth so much.  And you radically accept the strengths and weaknesses of your partner  and yourself... .

(again... .that has nothing to do with putting up with abuse or martyring yourself).

Your post screams... .I NEED TO LEARN BETTER BOUNDARIES... .Psychic, internal, emotional and psychological boundaries... .The ones that are invisible and all about you and your sense of self.

You need this (good psychic boundaries)  in or out of this relationship... .don't blame the need for boundaries on him.  You need them as an adult in this world, with or without him.  Having him in your life may be the universe gifting you with the opportunity to learn to have better boundaries once and for all.  It IS hard work. 

[Joel2:25]

It's like because I told him I loved him as is(radical acceptance), that it's now like he thinks no matter what he throws at me or asks of me,

Keep in mind that radical acceptance isn't tied to staying or going. It's also not tied to accepting abuse or being a martyr.

It's a way of accepting the reality of what is happening in the moment, as your reality, and your responsibility.  This actually makes you better at taking care of yourself and understanding your own boundaries and how to protect them.   I got better when I radically accepted certain harsh realities about the person in my life with these traits.  Radical Acceptance is the antidote to magical thinking.  It's very very grown-up thinking.  My person isn't even in my life right now, but I still practice radical acceptance about what is.  Not what I wish for, but what is. It catapultes you into taking full respsonsibility for your own life and your own happiness.   A huge part of prolonged suffering is fighting against the reality of what is factual and real and present.  My partner is not able to meet a lot of my needs.  That's a reality.  That's what's happening, that is what is here.  It's not going to change.  It isn't just going to go away.  I radically accept this, because it's real.  I am not wishing it away.  I am not saying things to myself that suggest I can only be happy when this changes, I am not bargaining with myself that way.   I am accepting reality as it is, in or out of the relationship.  Radical Acceptance also doesn't mean accepting abuse or tolerating more and more dysfunctional behavior from someone.  Radical acceptance is a way you take care of your own internal state of mind by not fooling yourself and self soothing with what is reality... .but if someone is crossing a boundary, you still take care of that boundary for yourself.  If you are not fooling yourself or engaging in magical thinking... .(if I put up with more crap he will eventually appreciate it and be nicer to me) ... .b/c that kind of thinking leads to more suffering.   I radically accept that my partner is super critical of me when he dysregulates.  So I do things to protect myself with that reality in mind. I stopped being so shocked when he behaved in ways consistent with who he showed me to be, over and over and over.  Instead of feeling shocked and personalizing it and lamenting how bad he treats me... .I started focusing on what I need to do for myself based on my radical acceptance of what is and what I as an adult am choosing. With that acceptance... .now what do I want to do to take super good care of myself.  That is my responsibility, not my partners.

I have agreed to pick up the slack when I radically accepted him,

Radical acceptance isn't really about picking up the slack.  It's about taking care of yourself.  You should always be taking care of yourself. That's your responsibility.  With or without him in your life.

The personality disorder many of us on this board have traits of... .is dependent personality.

That has nothing to do with being dependent necessarily on someone financially, or not being able to do things for yourself.  Most codep's I know are crazy busy juggling a mil;ion different things.  It's not about being capable. Co's are very capable, hyper capable, really.  As in... .picking up the slack and over functioning for others who are under functioning.  This helps the person who is under functioning to keep underfunctioning... .why would I learn to function better when I have a  codep in my life who is willing to pick up the slack and over function for me?

this is about taking care of yourself emotionally.  It speaks to the kind of codependent stuff that most of us come with on this board. Most folks who are used to taking really good care of themselves emotionally, don't spend a lot of time on this board.  Or, they stay on the board but they really get it, that this is about them.  Not their partners antics.  Expecting a mentally ill person to meet your emotional needs isn't going to ever work.  There is a dependency issue that goes on with many of us here. We got certain unrealistic needs met maybe in the very beginning of the relationship, it hooked us in, and we keep thinking we will get that back if we give and give and give enough to this person.  Or, maybe we had an adult in our childhood that we had to take care of in some way and we are use to being in this role of picking up the slack for someone else.  Something about it is familiar. 

Everyone 'projects'.  All couples 'project' crap onto eachother at times.  It's not the projection.  It's how firm you are in your own sense of self. Projection drives folks nuts who are not grounded in their own sense of self, who are not feeling secure in their sense of self.  Here's a non reactive response to his claim that you are too needy.  "Yes, you are right, I am".  B/c from his stand point, you ARE too needy.  that makes perfect sense.  So what?   How much it derails you, bothers you, gets you JADING, gets you outside yourself... .relates to how hooked into a projection you are.   That fact is, the person I know with this disorder finds EVERYONE to be too needy.  Relating requires a lot of emotional muscle and a lot of sophisticated skills, it's a lot of work... .the reality is, most of the time he just really doesn't have what it takes to really be in a reciprocal relationship at all.  He can play nice for a while, but real relating is just a pain in the ass and requires skills he doens't have.   He just doesn't have it in him to do that.   

So, a partner will seem needy to him, b/c partner's keep asking for things he can't give and can't do.

So... .you are needy, from his perspective.  I am, too.  We all are. So what?  Don't personalize this stuff.  Projections don't bother you much when you are really grounded in your own sense of self, you practice radical acceptance about what is (he's not a giver so he will experience me as too needy) and are not pinging off what comes out of his mouth so much.  And you radically accept the strengths and weaknesses of your partner  and yourself... .

(again... .that has nothing to do with putting up with abuse or martyring yourself).

Your post screams... .I NEED TO LEARN BETTER BOUNDARIES... .Psychic, internal, emotional and psychological boundaries... .The ones that are invisible and all about you and your sense of self.

You need this (good psychic boundaries)  in or out of this relationship... .don't blame the need for boundaries on him.  You need them as an adult in this world, with or without him.  Having him in your life may be the universe gifting you with the opportunity to learn to have better boundaries once and for all.  It IS hard work. 

YES... ., yes and Amen. Thank you. I'm reading this for me. I've even screen shot it for those needy moments. You know, when I need a hug and he's pissy. When I'm so happy about a joyful thing that's happened and he's jealous or in fear. When I just need someone to tell me it's okay (I already know it, but good golly a gal would like to hear it sometimes). Thank you for taking the time. It's a great -SNAP OUT OF IT GIRL- post(For me, anyways!) and will save me from from trying to snuggle up to a snake. I know it doesn't work... ,this will remind me when I forget

[waverider]

Not bench marking yourself from an unstable influence is extremely important. That is the foundation stone in self confidence and self belief.

It is important in the world at large, and  critical in living within a PD relationship.

[Ceruleanblue]

I actually have much better stronger boundaries than I did before our separation, but even so, it's a constant battle. I don't think I'm codependent now, but I definitely was before we reconciled. We were apart for two months, maybe more, and it gave me a lot of time to think. He doesn't in fact know most of my boundaries, I just enact them without telling him. A few, the major ones, he knows, of course.

I know he's unable to meet most of my emotional needs, and I came back into the marriage knowing that. What's sad is that he doesn't really want me getting those needs met elsewhere either. This is one of those invisible boundaries that he crosses. I just do it anyways, and let him sulk or whatever. I have to look out for me.

I've always had pretty good self confidence and self belief. If I didn't, I sure wouldn't think I could do this on a daily basis. Leaving him would have been easier. I've chosen to stay, because I think I can be happy, and still be married to him. HE may not be happy, he may never get happy, but that is not my job to make him happy. By radically accepting him, I didn't mean I will just put up with abuse, I accept that he has this disorder, and change may or may not come. I'd make a really bad martyr too... .. I think of radical acceptance as not getting hung up on things I can't change. I can only work on me, and my thoughts, my needs, and just try to not make things worse for him.

And I do tend to be a dependent personality type, I'm sure, but I think my recent boundaries are helping with that. My recent boundaries are sort of across the board actually. I've never had a ton of issues with boundaries with people outside my family, but definitely have with people I love. My BPDh, and my two kids have all noticed that I will no longer tolerate being treated rudely, and will disengage, to protect ME. It's been way more effective with BPDh and my daughter and it's had more mixed results with my son.

I feel I've always had a lot of self confidence and self belief, but I've sort of always felt because I did, I tolerated more. I always felt like due to that I could tolerate more, and that people's demands, or control issues were coming from a place of weakness or fear(which justified my overlooking those behaviors). But, what I've realized is that just because I do view myself as STRONG, the daily shouldering of "being the bigger person" or "choosing your battles" does take a toll eventually. I've chosen to set boundaries for ME. I've always felt I matter, but I've let my sense of strength, come in the way of that in the past. I dealt with that, and I'm no longer doing that anymore(it was ineffective). I'm just learning to be strong in a better way.

Now, I'm showing others that instead of simply overlooking stuff because I feel strong, that I can also set a firm boundary so that I have a more pleasant life and surroundings.

[Ceruleanblue]

I love the remark about not snuggling up to a snake. I bet most of us have been there, and I'm sure there have been times that I'm less than snuggly due to how I've been treated. I appreciate the thoughtful post too, and it gave me a lot to look at and think about. I do think that he'd view anyone as "needy", and I've known that, but I sort of always wondering if I just told myself that to make myself deal with it better. It helped to hear if from someone else who has lived through it.