Another perspective to self-esteem and borderlines.

[peacefulmind]

I haven't posted in a while since I have taken some time to reflect over things, notably myself and my own understanding of the situation I was put in some months ago now.

Certain personalities continue to return over and over again to interact with a Borderline due to their own childhood issues. People stay in abusive situations because they are vaguely familiar with the voicelessness from childhood which they have repressed. The Borderline becomes a cipher that unlocks that Pandora's Box of memories. This person, the attachment, is a Fata Morgana.

For many people, a failed attachment to a Borderline gives them a mystery to solve. This can keep some people in obsessive engagement. Are they being treated better? No. There are no happy endings here.  A friendship or relationship with a Borderline can also give people exactly what they secretly feel they deserve but outwardly deny. They will return over and over again to attempt to extract their self esteem from the Borderline attachment. None of this is healthy.

I read this interesting quote from BorisAcusio on Beach_Babe's thread, and since I did not want to intervene with her questions/answers, I decided to put this here.

Since my B/U I've been attending an experienced therapist who have much knowledge in the field of personality disorders, and especially dealing with co-dependency which is one of the main traits I exhibit. An interesting take on this, is something I was told last week at my session: "You have to understand, that due to your constant need for validation through your father (especially), and being constantly told no to things you found interesting or fun, you did not develop early self-worth which is crucial to any human person. Instead, what you learned was to "pretend" in order to obtain the very thing you craved the most, validation. The paradox is, that on this part, you and your borderline ex are very similar in many of the ways you cope with validation issues. However, the difference is, you have taught yourself that self-esteem is something that will give you self-worth. This is what we need to change for you. You need to understand that self-worth and self-esteem are NOT the same things. Self-esteem is external to your inner core, this is something you attain from people around you, through the work you do (which you are very good at), and through your social interactions. Self-worth on the other hand, is a very inward and personal quality, that is "poured" into you throughout childhood and early adolescence."

A very graphical presentation my therapist did, was drawing two different scenarios. Two bodies, one with external factors which were constantly being added to a net of self-esteem, and the other body, was a small reagent glass. It was explained in the following way: "Throughout childhood, everytime you become validated for the things you are good at, or for the things you find interesting, a little droplet of self-worth is being added to that reagent glass. Everytime you are told no, even if you find this is the right thing for you to do, a small air-bubble is created in this mixture, which creates a void in your self-worth. Your main problem is, that your reagent glass has never been fully filled, and by the age of 16, a lid is placed on this reagent glass, and no external factor can ever again impact the self-worth. This is something YOU have to work on by asserting boundaries, learn your own worth, and that you're good enough the way you are, even if people say you're not."

What was especially important for me during this session was, that this explanation gave me a very good view on why I have always felt the need to be validated. Why I have become co-dependent, and why I have been in several relationships now, with SOs exhibiting traits of personality disorders. What was even more important, is how quickly my therapist turned the focus onto me (notice how she shifted after shortly explaining the paradox... ), and gave me a very good impression of what it is I have to change and how I will slowly do this.

In summary, I find the whole self-esteem from borderline attachments interesting, since, from my perspective, this is not the core issue in my case. I need to stop confusing self-esteem with self-worth, because ultimately they do not serve the same purpose and never have. I don't know if anyone can use this for anything, but it made a world of difference for me, and have speeden up my healing process greatly, realizing that I have to work on myself. After the session, my focus was all of a sudden shifted, and I understood the major underlying problem in my attachment to my exBPD.

[valet]

This is an interesting topic to discuss, peacefulmind.

Do you believe that you know who you are, as far as the topic of self-worth is concerned?

I did some reading on the difference between self-esteem and self-worth not too long ago. It seems like kind of a quandary to me, because if our self-worth was extremely high than why would we need a concept like self-esteem? Why would we need any sort of validation if we believed in ourselves that much? Wouldn't we all just be happy never developing relationships and not progressing or learning about ourselves in any way? Wouldn't solitude be the preferred lifestyle?

[peacefulmind]

This is an interesting topic to discuss, peacefulmind.

Do you believe that you know who you are, as far as the topic of self-worth is concerned?

I did some reading on the difference between self-esteem and self-worth not too long ago. It seems like kind of a quandary to me, because if our self-worth was extremely high than why would we need a concept like self-esteem? Why would we need any sort of validation if we believed in ourselves that much? Wouldn't we all just be happy never developing relationships and not progressing or learning about ourselves in any way? Wouldn't solitude be the preferred lifestyle?

I do not know who I am concerning self-worth. All my life, I've been a pretender in the sense that I have taught myself to read other people's reactions to my actions, and that way around attain the validation I need. People pleaser syndrome at its finest.

I think your questions are warranted and I cannot answer them with 100% certainty. From my perspective, my lack of self-worth ultimately drove me into the relationship with my exBPD. As has been discussed widely on these boards, they're experts in gaining an insight into your psyche, understanding how to push those buttons that will attach you.

I can put this in a personal context -- When I told my dad about my failed relationship, and he started asking what went wrong, and I told him about the projection and devaluation I had been through, he said the following: "I don't understand why you could let her treat you like that. I would never allow a woman to treat me like you describe... ". Now, my dad is at his very core a narcissist, and always has been. The projections he has subjected me to throughout the years is still something I am going through at this point, since I am slowly opening "pandora's box". When I told him what my therapist had told me, his first consideration was: "Are you calling me a bad father?" and the tone was set for the rest of that discussion. Instead of acknowledging his son's need for someone to listen and to give him advice, he turned it around and made it about him, and he got quite angry with me. Now, relating to your questions, if we possess high self-worth, we do not need the constant validation from our SO, but it is in the very nature of humans to be acknowledged for our efforts. My therapist explained, that self-esteem is something we can use for acting self-confident (i.e. a mirror of confidence at least), and that way around hide our inner insecurities. This is the way I've been doing it wrong for all these years. I've been living off of my self-esteem, because I have been TOLD that I am passionate and good at what I do, I'm social and have good friends and a loving family. Those are all external given the context of appraisal from my side. I have been told, I have felt that other found me good enough through my actions, you get the point... Inside, I'm a wreck who constantly seeks validation from those same external factors that I attain my self-esteem from. The only difference is, they cannot help me to feel "worthy", only I can do that. So your points are validated, they're very true. If we possess high self-worth, I do not believe that self-esteem is what drives our motivation, our happiness, or our well-being. I will look more into this next week probably, and I will let you know if I come up with anything that slightly makes more sense than what I just wrote

It has puzzled me for a long time why I always felt like I had to prove myself to everyone I interact with, and I understand that this validation need is a core issue from my childhood. I have always had self-esteem, but unfortunately that is not what I need. I need to gain self-worth for me to become more healthy and interact with other people in a healthy way.

Wouldn't solitude be the preferred lifestyle?

Interestingly, I have a friend who has gone completely MGTOW (men going their own way), who refuses to have intimate relationships with women, simply because of the level of craziness he himself has experienced. I have looked up some youtube videos on this matter (Sandman is a good place to start), but it is not something I can identify myself with. It is, however, the easy route. I will much rather work on myself and find someone at some point in my life, that can reciprocate my care and my love in a healthy way, and create a mutual bond of love. That's what I'm aiming for. But yes, solitude would be the preferred lifestyle if we look at it in black and white.

Wouldn't we all just be happy never developing relationships and not progressing or learning about ourselves in any way?

From my personal POV, if we're happy and we have a high self-worth, developing relationships and have a healthy, mutual, and respectful bond with another person will become much more seamless. It will make us able to avoid the situation we've already been in once (some more than others... ), and I believe, that the journey to that point is obtained through what you questioned. By progressing and learning about ourselves, we will be happy and we will be able to develop relationships that doesn't end with significant heartbreak as the ones introduced by exBPDs.

[Allmessedup]

Interesting thread... .

So then am I understanding correctly that no one can positively influence your own self worth after adolesence, that glass it capped.  But then can others negatively influence it? 

I too am very much a people pleaser and look for a lot of external validation

Amu

[valet]

I think that ultimately then, someone with a true sense self-worth would be someone who built meaningful relationships (maybe for the heck of it, or maybe just out of natural curiosity), but doesn't let any negative consequence that may result from them affect them outside of a 'normal' range of experience.

[peacefulmind]

Interesting thread... .

So then am I understanding correctly that no one can positively influence your own self worth after adolesence, that glass it capped.  But then can others negatively influence it? 

I too am very much a people pleaser and look for a lot of external validation

Amu

That is correct. The literature (I haven't looked this up myself yet so these are the words of my 25-year experienced therapist) states that around the age of 16, our self-worth reagent glass is capped, and there is no access to this from external factors, neither positive nor negative.

[peacefulmind]

I think that ultimately then, someone with a true sense self-worth would be someone who built meaningful relationships (maybe for the heck of it, or maybe just out of natural curiosity), but doesn't let any negative consequence that may result from them affect them outside of a 'normal' range of experience.

I can understand your point, however, I choose to believe that someone with a true sense of self-worth, is much better at knowing what they want, and how they want it. There is no need for constant validation seeking, it's simply a relationship for the intimacy and the love. If two people with high sense of self-worth get together, I imagine (and I can only imagine since I'm far from experiencing this myself) that the relationship will be based on genuine and mutual trust, respect, and reciprocated feelings. There will be no need for lies, cheating, or projecting. Just thinking about a relationship like this, makes me realize how much I have missed out on.

[Mutt]

Hey peacefulmind,

Great thread  

Now, my dad is at his very core a narcissist, and always has been. The projections he has subjected me to throughout the years

My father is a narcissist as well although I didn't know this term until after my ex partner with BPD traits left, grieved the relationship, found an article on co-dependency and early development here and the more that I learned about BPD I could see similar and distinct behaviors and traits, emotional immaturity, ego-tistical, grandiosity and he dominates every conversation and makes it about himself. Growing up I wanted my father's advice and attention and it felt like I was in the way or he didn't care about me.

It has puzzled me for a long time why I always felt like I had to prove myself to everyone I interact with, and I understand that this validation need is a core issue from my childhood.

I felt the same way that I had to prove my self worth with people that I interacted with in real life and it was validation that I was seeking because I liked that validation from a narcissistic parent in my child-hood.

I had a series of unhealthy relationships that followed a pattern and I think that it was my ex partner and the painful break-up that made me turn the mirror back on myself. I would be preaching at the choir here at how painful these relationship break-ups, there are valuable lesson's if you open that "pandora's box".

I was looking for love in other people and relationships where at at fundamental level, I didn't feel like I loved myself. I had to love myself and validate myself and not look elsewhere for it.

[valet]

This is utterly fascinating. Great posts.

I find that I'm not really a people pleaser, and generally don't care too much about what people think of me. I tend to be direct with people, but not outside of the terms of being empathetic and emotionally responsible. I generally keep the very intimate relationships that I have with close friends and family on the same terms, the only difference being that I am a little bit riskier as far as the empathy is concerned. If I believe that I know someone well and that they trust my opinion, they are more likely to hear the most direct version of the truth that I can provide. I'm often not too concerned with being validated, it's just nice to vent sometimes! I am also not shy with advice, if I think that I have built a connection that warrants me saying something to someone that I know (or obviously, if they ask, but this is all evaluated on a scale of closeness).

This is good grounds for self-evaluation, peacefulmind. I've never really thought about my own self-worth, in terms of it being different from self-esteem.

[peacefulmind]

Hey peacefulmind,

Great thread  

Now, my dad is at his very core a narcissist, and always has been. The projections he has subjected me to throughout the years

My father is a narcissist as well although I didn't know this term until after my ex partner with BPD traits left, grieved the relationship, found an article on co-dependency and early development here and the more that I learned about BPD I could see similar and distinct behaviors and traits, emotional immaturity, ego-tistical, grandiosity and he dominates every conversation and makes it about himself. Growing up I wanted my father's advice and attention and it felt like I was in the way or he didn't care about me.

It has puzzled me for a long time why I always felt like I had to prove myself to everyone I interact with, and I understand that this validation need is a core issue from my childhood.

I felt the same way that I had to prove my self worth with people that I interacted with in real life and it was validation that I was seeking because I liked that validation from a narcissistic parent in my child-hood.

I had a series of unhealthy relationships that followed a pattern and I think that it was my ex partner and the painful break-up that made me turn the mirror back on myself. I would be preaching at the choir here at how painful these relationship break-ups, there are valuable lesson's if you open that "pandora's box".

Thank you for your input as well, Mutt.

I never knew about narcissism until my exBPD mentioned the term to me (ironic much?). After educating myself on both BPD and NPD, I realized exactly where my own co-dependency stems from, and why I have always felt "unimportant" in the eyes of the very people who loves me the most. My own record of relationships, as stated, all involve some sort of , and I would have never made this realization was it not for my ex and the abrupt ending of our relationship.

I have decided that forgiveness is not something I am able to offer my ex, but I am thankful that I have been thrown into this mess, since it gives me a very good chance at working on myself. I can now understand why some users on these boards have advocated self-reflection, e.g. through therapy, and I am grateful I have been given this opportunity. I cannot completely  detach myself yet, but I am very well on the way there after having this epiphany that was brought on by someone who has worked daily for nearly three decades with co-dependents and their issues with especially borderlines. I was wary the first time I attended, but after the second session, I am already feeling the impact it is having in my healing process and I can only recommend seeking professional help if the hurdle is letting go. Moving from hate towards my ex, to understanding of my own core issues, have helped me shift focus and started a whole new chapter of my healing, one that feels MUCH better than the preceding one.

I was looking for love in other people and relationships where at at fundamental level, I didn't feel like I loved myself. I had to love myself and validate myself and not look elsewhere for it.

This is what I'm aiming for. This is my goal and my new mantra. It sums up everything, at least for me, and I appreciate everyone's input thus far.

[blissful_camper]

Interesting thread... .

So then am I understanding correctly that no one can positively influence your own self worth after adolesence, that glass it capped.  But then can others negatively influence it? 

I too am very much a people pleaser and look for a lot of external validation

Amu

That is correct. The literature (I haven't looked this up myself yet so these are the words of my 25-year experienced therapist) states that around the age of 16, our self-worth reagent glass is capped, and there is no access to this from external factors, neither positive nor negative.

I find this quite interesting.  I'm not a people pleaser.  I'm an introvert and I love activities that require me to do solo work.  I find that what I identify as self worth increases as I engage in activities that reinforce my sense of wellness. Those activities are often connected to my goals.  I select goals that are meaningful to me.  When I feel I've met those goals my sense of self worth increases.  Or am I confusing self worth for self esteem?  

[peacefulmind]

This is utterly fascinating. Great posts.

I find that I'm not really a people pleaser, and generally don't care too much about what people think of me. I tend to be direct with people, but not outside of the terms of being empathetic and emotionally responsible. I generally keep the very intimate relationships that I have with close friends and family on the same terms, the only difference being that I am a little bit riskier as far as the empathy is concerned. If I believe that I know someone well and that they trust my opinion, they are more likely to hear the most direct version of the truth that I can provide. I'm often not too concerned with being validated, it's just nice to vent sometimes! I am also not shy with advice, if I think that I have built a connection that warrants me saying something to someone that I know (or obviously, if they ask, but this is all evaluated on a scale of closeness).

This is good grounds for self-evaluation, peacefulmind. I've never really thought about my own self-worth, in terms of it being different from self-esteem.

I wish I could draw it out. When I saw it, I felt a sudden relief of the heart ache and chest heaviness I have had for several months after the breakup.

I think you possess a lot of self-esteem, and in the mix is also self-worth. From a personal perspective, I was once asked to describe myself in three words. I chose confident, outgoing, and determined. Determination is my main feat that I have never let go of, but the two preceding descriptions are lies. They're everything I NEVER felt I was, but was made to believe that I was through my "pretender" role. It was what has inhibited me to face my demons and evaluate my very core values. It is a long road ahead, but at least now, the focus is on myself and not the hate that I felt for my ex. It is slowly subsiding proportional to my realizations and going back to the situations in the past that has made me who I am today. It's an interesting journey, and after Friday, I will fully commit to this journey!

[peacefulmind]

Interesting thread... .

So then am I understanding correctly that no one can positively influence your own self worth after adolesence, that glass it capped.  But then can others negatively influence it?  

I too am very much a people pleaser and look for a lot of external validation

Amu

That is correct. The literature (I haven't looked this up myself yet so these are the words of my 25-year experienced therapist) states that around the age of 16, our self-worth reagent glass is capped, and there is no access to this from external factors, neither positive nor negative.

I find this quite interesting.  I'm not a people pleaser.  I'm an introvert and I love activities that require me to do solo work.  I find that what I identify as self worth increases as I engage in activities that reinforce my sense of wellness. Those activities are often connected to my goals.  I select goals that are meaningful to me.  When I feel I've met those goals my sense of self worth increases.  Or am I confusing self worth for self esteem?  

No, I think you're very spot-on. One of the things I asked my therapist about was; "But how do I do this? How do I achieve self-worth when I all my life has believed that my self-esteem was equal to self-worth?". She actually smiled at me and said: "It is simple really, when you do things for yourself, when you set boundaries for what you want to tolerate, you become one with your self-worth. You know what you are, you know what you want, and you know what you won't tolerate". This was very interesting to me, because the only thing my exBPD did NOT affect, was my ability to do my work and still feel good at it. This is something I like to do, and this is something I'm PASSIONATE about. It cannot be affected by anyone.

Now, there are several interpretations to this statement, but what you're saying is a very lucid image of, how I imagine self-worth is, and how to improve it. Do things for yourself, things you love, things that you care about. I was constantly told "no" when I was a kid. When the other kids went to the disco, I was told "NO! You're not old enough for that". So I spent most weekends at home, watching movies with my parents and my brother, instead of hanging out with my friends, which was truly what I wanted to do. I don't know if this makes sense to you? Instead of allowing me to do what I really wanted to do, to socialize, to have fun with my friends, and to experience life on my own terms, I was told no, and was kept as a "prisoner" where I had to pretend to be satisfied. When I told my parents at a young age that I wanted to draw cartoons when I grew up, I was told "no, you won't make any money off of that... ". Instead, I'm in science now, where I use my creativity in other aspects, but I still love to draw So, to relate this to your question, your self-worth increases as you realize what makes you happy, to do solo-work, to charge your batteries in your own company without caring what other people may think.

Put in a more simple way:  I select goals that are meaningful to me. I believe this is one of the core ideas behind self-worth. Meaningfulness in your eyes, what makes you feel accomplished. You see, this is not connected to any external supervisor, not associated with judging eyes, or comments related to the performance or end-result. It is nothing but your own deed and your own wish to set a goal and obtain it. Self-worth.

[blissful_camper]

Interesting thread... .

So then am I understanding correctly that no one can positively influence your own self worth after adolesence, that glass it capped.  But then can others negatively influence it?  

I too am very much a people pleaser and look for a lot of external validation

Amu

That is correct. The literature (I haven't looked this up myself yet so these are the words of my 25-year experienced therapist) states that around the age of 16, our self-worth reagent glass is capped, and there is no access to this from external factors, neither positive nor negative.

I find this quite interesting.  I'm not a people pleaser.  I'm an introvert and I love activities that require me to do solo work.  I find that what I identify as self worth increases as I engage in activities that reinforce my sense of wellness. Those activities are often connected to my goals.  I select goals that are meaningful to me.  When I feel I've met those goals my sense of self worth increases.  Or am I confusing self worth for self esteem?  

No, I think you're very spot-on. One of the things I asked my therapist about was; "But how do I do this? How do I achieve self-worth when I all my life has believed that my self-esteem was equal to self-worth?". She actually smiled at me and said: "It is simple really, when you do things for yourself, when you set boundaries for what you want to tolerate, you become one with your self-worth. You know what you are, you know what you want, and you know what you won't tolerate". This was very interesting to me, because the only thing my exBPD did NOT affect, was my ability to do my work and still feel good at it. This is something I like to do, and this is something I'm PASSIONATE about. It cannot be affected by anyone.

Now, there are several interpretations to this statement, but what you're saying is a very lucid image of, how I imagine self-worth is, and how to improve it. Do things for yourself, things you love, things that you care about. I was constantly told "no" when I was a kid. When the other kids went to the disco, I was told "NO! You're not old enough for that". So I spent most weekends at home, watching movies with my parents and my brother, instead of hanging out with my friends, which was truly what I wanted to do. I don't know if this makes sense to you? Instead of allowing me to do what I really wanted to do, to socialize, to have fun with my friends, and to experience life on my own terms, I was told no, and was kept as a "prisoner" where I had to pretend to be satisfied. When I told my parents at a young age that I wanted to draw cartoons when I grew up, I was told "no, you won't make any money off of that... ". Instead, I'm in science now, where I use my creativity in other aspects, but I still love to draw So, to relate this to your question, your self-worth increases as you realize what makes you happy, to do solo-work, to charge your batteries in your own company without caring what other people may think.

Put in a more simple way:  I select goals that are meaningful to me. I believe this is one of the core ideas behind self-worth. Meaningfulness in your eyes, what makes you feel accomplished. You see, this is not connected to any external supervisor, not associated with judging eyes, or comments related to the performance or end-result. It is nothing but your own deed and your own wish to set a goal and obtain it. Self-worth.

Thanks for that, Peaceful.  Yes, your explanation and examples make a lot of sense. 

Am I mistaken to feel that one's self esteem should be developed and reinforced by oneself?  Is it our sense of self worth that can impact our self esteem?  If we're actively engaging in increasing our self worth than an increase there will simultaneously increase our self esteem? 

[Invictus01]

I don't know man. Just from the personal point of view... .I have been sent to a communications coach (aka "political correctness" coach) by my former bosses in the previous company because according to them, I tend come across as "arrogant and intimidating"... .although most people who really know me, know that it's not arrogance or intimidation, it's just that I can't put up with bull$hit for too long. I have been known to tell a friend or two who dealt with some craziness from their girlfriend/wife - ":)ude, I have no idea how you put up with this, I'd walk a long time ago if she treated me like that". Hell, I've been known to do just that as soon as saw something I didn't like or wasn't treated right. I also know damn well what I want in a  woman (and what I don't want in a woman) and no amount of love bombing would make me fall in love with, let's say, a drug addict or a cutter or some other weirdness along those lines. In fact, as we speak, there are 3 or 4 women/girls who would just love get together (they lined up after they found out that I was technically available)... .but I just don't feel it with them and nothing they can do will change that.

Sometimes you just fall in love and do stupid things that can't be explained. BUT... .if you ARE treated like crap in a relationship and you stay in it for years... .if you ARE going back time after time to the person who treated you wrong... .then, yes, it is on you as much as it is on them, no matter what it is that drives it. I say, a couple could take two shots at being together. Second chances do happen to work out, misunderstandings and other things happen. But a relationship is dead and buried if the second shot didn't work out, whether you give it a 3rd attempt or the 25th attempt in the future.

[peacefulmind]

Interesting thread... .

So then am I understanding correctly that no one can positively influence your own self worth after adolesence, that glass it capped.  But then can others negatively influence it?  

I too am very much a people pleaser and look for a lot of external validation

Amu

That is correct. The literature (I haven't looked this up myself yet so these are the words of my 25-year experienced therapist) states that around the age of 16, our self-worth reagent glass is capped, and there is no access to this from external factors, neither positive nor negative.

I find this quite interesting.  I'm not a people pleaser.  I'm an introvert and I love activities that require me to do solo work.  I find that what I identify as self worth increases as I engage in activities that reinforce my sense of wellness. Those activities are often connected to my goals.  I select goals that are meaningful to me.  When I feel I've met those goals my sense of self worth increases.  Or am I confusing self worth for self esteem?  

No, I think you're very spot-on. One of the things I asked my therapist about was; "But how do I do this? How do I achieve self-worth when I all my life has believed that my self-esteem was equal to self-worth?". She actually smiled at me and said: "It is simple really, when you do things for yourself, when you set boundaries for what you want to tolerate, you become one with your self-worth. You know what you are, you know what you want, and you know what you won't tolerate". This was very interesting to me, because the only thing my exBPD did NOT affect, was my ability to do my work and still feel good at it. This is something I like to do, and this is something I'm PASSIONATE about. It cannot be affected by anyone.

Now, there are several interpretations to this statement, but what you're saying is a very lucid image of, how I imagine self-worth is, and how to improve it. Do things for yourself, things you love, things that you care about. I was constantly told "no" when I was a kid. When the other kids went to the disco, I was told "NO! You're not old enough for that". So I spent most weekends at home, watching movies with my parents and my brother, instead of hanging out with my friends, which was truly what I wanted to do. I don't know if this makes sense to you? Instead of allowing me to do what I really wanted to do, to socialize, to have fun with my friends, and to experience life on my own terms, I was told no, and was kept as a "prisoner" where I had to pretend to be satisfied. When I told my parents at a young age that I wanted to draw cartoons when I grew up, I was told "no, you won't make any money off of that... ". Instead, I'm in science now, where I use my creativity in other aspects, but I still love to draw So, to relate this to your question, your self-worth increases as you realize what makes you happy, to do solo-work, to charge your batteries in your own company without caring what other people may think.

Put in a more simple way:  I select goals that are meaningful to me. I believe this is one of the core ideas behind self-worth. Meaningfulness in your eyes, what makes you feel accomplished. You see, this is not connected to any external supervisor, not associated with judging eyes, or comments related to the performance or end-result. It is nothing but your own deed and your own wish to set a goal and obtain it. Self-worth.

Thanks for that, Peaceful.  Yes, your explanation and examples make a lot of sense. 

Am I mistaken to feel that one's self esteem should be developed and reinforced by oneself?  Is it our sense of self worth that can impact our self esteem?  If we're actively engaging in increasing our self worth than an increase there will simultaneously increase our self esteem? 

I think we fool ourselves by interchangeably mentioning self-worth and self-esteem. I think valet had a very good point, if we have high sense of self-worth, why would we need high self-esteem?

I think, and this is purely my interpretation of my session, that self-esteem comes by itself. It comes through our daily lives with interaction with other people, with the daily chores and activities we do, that do not pertain to non-essential work. I may have to explain this a bit more, but by non-essential work, I mean things that we do for ourselves, whether that being sitting on the couch eating chocolate, running a mile on the road, or spend time with people that we love and trust. So, our self-worth becomes stronger as we become more aware of what we as a person like, what makes us feel accomplished, and what gives us happiness. This is where the chain broke for me in my early years. I felt accomplished and happy when I was validated by others. I never felt I could give myself that validation and sense of achievement, because I would always need someone else to tell me it was good enough. As I'm writing this, I just send a presentation for my thesis defence on Friday, and am awaiting answer from my supervisor if I need to change anything. This is strictly professional, but if I should follow what I'm saying here, I should be content with it, without needing the eyes of my supervisor (old habits are hard to break).

So in other words, self-esteem is something that comes naturally. My therapist told me that self-esteem is the easiest thing to get if you're good at something. You will always have someone in your close circle of trustees who will tell you it's good. Self-worth on the other hand, is not something that is easy to get, if you have never learned how. "You were never taught to feel worthy of yourself, and that is a major problem we have to fix in you, peacefulmind. But I cannot do that for you, you must be willing to face what you fear the most, not feeling validated" (quote).

[peacefulmind]

I don't know man. Just from the personal point of view... .I have been sent to a communications coach (aka "political correctness" coach) by my former bosses in the previous company because according to them, I tend come across as "arrogant and intimidating"... .although most people who really know me, know that it's not arrogance or intimidation, it's just that I can't put up with bull$hit for too long. I have been known to tell a friend or two who dealt with some craziness from their girlfriend/wife - ":)ude, I have no idea how you put up with this, I'd walk a long time ago if she treated me like that". Hell, I've been known to do just that as soon as saw something I didn't like or wasn't treated right. I also know damn well what I want in a  woman (and what I don't want in a woman) and no amount of love bombing would make me fall in love with, let's say, a drug addict or a cutter or some other weirdness along those lines. In fact, as we speak, there are 3 or 4 women/girls who would just love get together (they lined up after they found out that I was technically available)... .but I just don't feel it with them and nothing they can do will change that.

Sometimes you just fall in love and do stupid things that can't be explained. BUT... .if you ARE treated like crap in a relationship and you stay in it for years... .if you ARE going back time after time to the person who treated you wrong... .then, yes, it is on you as much as it is on them, no matter what it is that drives it. I say, a couple could take two shots at being together. Second chances do happen to work out, misunderstandings and other things happen. But a relationship is dead and buried if the second shot didn't work out, whether you give it a 3rd attempt or the 25th attempt in the future.

The bolded statement caught my eyes. I quickly read your first post on these boards which stated: "A 6 month picture perfect BPD relationship (love bombing, mirroring, everything)... ". It seems you have grown a great deal from your experience, and that shows determination and self-reflection. You've realized what you don't want and how to avoid this. The only reason why I'm bringing this up, is the perspective of it, a different aspect to the whole "you need more self-esteem to avoid borderlines". More often than not, it has been my own lack of self-worth that has driven me when engaging in relationships with my exSOs. The pattern is clear to me now, and I understand that this is not the first time this has happened to me, it is however, the one that has broken me the most.

In relation to your "not putting up with bull****", you and I are very different. It seems to me, that you know your own boundaries now. This is in sharp contrast to me, since I never learned these basic skills for human interaction/survival. I believe that setting boundaries and sticking to them, are very much associated with self-worth. If you have no self-worth, you have no boundaries. Your self-esteem only brings you so far, and once the non-existent boundaries are broken, what else is there to take? Your self-esteem.

I do not know if the above assumption is correct, it's just something I've been thinking about. Since my self-worth has always been very low, what is it about my exBPD relationship that tore me apart the way it did? Devaluation attacks not only the very core values of a person but also the things that are usually seen as something external such as being acknowledged. To give an example, my exBPD never acknowledged the hard work I did, never once said "I'm proud of you" or "good job!". So what is it, this silent form of devaluation took away? My self-esteem? Could that explain why I felt I had nothing left after the breakup? I don't know, but I certainly find it very interesting.

I'm not sure how to answer anymore of your post, Invictus, but thank you for your input

[Mutt]

Self esteem is self-referential, self worth takes into account how we perceive ourselves, how we perceive our social environment and how we perceive the social environment perceiving us.

Self-esteem is self-referential, and does not take into account the social and interactive aspects of self-development. Self-worth, on the other hand, considers the manner in which we perceive ourselves, the manner in which we perceive our social environment, and the manner in which we perceive the social environment perceiving us. It also recognizes how we interact with our social environment with respect to our self-perception, as well as how we then interact with ourselves -- also based on that self-perception. This dynamic is something the concept of self-esteem does not take into account because the notion of self-esteem largely does not acknowledge the transactional nature of human culture, society and relationship.

https://www.psychologytoday.com/blog/enlightened-living/200805/reframing-self-esteem-self-worth

[LimboFL]

I am going to jump in on this, because while there is absolutely no question that I suffer from some self worth issues, that are highly complex and that I don't want to drone on about here, I am not sure if they played as big a role here as another highly critical component.

What I think is being missed here is that, from many of the stories I have read on this board, a large number of the non's here felt a gravitational pull to their exBPD's because many of us were caught coming out of failed marriages or long term relationship, where we were very vulnerable. If these long term relationships failed, they inevitably did so after an extend period of unhappiness which means a state of no love,romance, connection or validation. So even if it isn't something that we have carried forward from our childhood, we crave the validation and immediate closeness that we got from our ex BPD's.

It also fed our desire to be wanted and needed. In other words, it wasn't all about being told how wonderful we are or how attractive we are, but also that someone needed us, wanted our help and praised us when we gave it. Something that was no longer present in the failed relationships. 

It isn't unique to co-dependents to derive good feelings from helping someone we care about or anyone for that matter. Yes, there are selfish people out in the world who don't feel the benefit of helping others but it can hardly be called self serving to want to help and feel good about it.

This was, ultimately what drove me to fall in love with my ex and stick it out. The difficulties she faced and told me about were real. I suspect there were embellishment, when it came to her romantic relationship recounts but I believed, from having been exposed to some relatives etc. that life was very hard for her growing up. There was a sudden and unexpected death of a parent at the hands of a criminal and more.

I digress, while again, I do believe that there is some childhood stuff in us that contributes, I also believe that it was due to timing as well. They hit us at the exact time when we needed a quick resuscitation from a failed previous relationship. This, I believe needs to be treated separately from the childhood issues we might all have.

Many of us who know anything about our replacements know that many of them have either just come out of a divorce or are clearly at the end of a sour and dead relationship. This is exactly when we very much want someone to take our pain away, to relieve us of the abandonment we feel and the low self worth that is a direct result of a failed relationship and not necessarily a result of childhood traumas.

I am a very strong, independent man, who is introverted in my own way and who can enjoy his own company for extended periods of time. I am in one of those times right now. I still want to eventually find another and this time, I wont jumping from a failed relationship into a new one because every piece of advice about allowing yourself time to heal, is dead right and spot on.

I don't feel the need to delve back into my history but rather learn that being alone has its advantages so that in my next relationship I don't allow fear of being alone be a trap. Even with my exBPDgf, at the beginning I wasn't charging down to see her, she was calling me and saying I was late etc. I was kind of doing my thing, but I also was very down about my failed 20 years relationship and eventual marriage. Now I am just breathing on my own for a while.

I thought this was important to bring up. =)

[peacefulmind]

Self esteem is self-referential, self worth takes into account how we perceive ourselves, how we perceive our social environment and how we perceive the social environment perceiving us.

Self-esteem is self-referential, and does not take into account the social and interactive aspects of self-development. Self-worth, on the other hand, considers the manner in which we perceive ourselves, the manner in which we perceive our social environment, and the manner in which we perceive the social environment perceiving us. It also recognizes how we interact with our social environment with respect to our self-perception, as well as how we then interact with ourselves -- also based on that self-perception. This dynamic is something the concept of self-esteem does not take into account because the notion of self-esteem largely does not acknowledge the transactional nature of human culture, society and relationship.

https://www.psychologytoday.com/blog/enlightened-living/200805/reframing-self-esteem-self-worth

Thanks for this, Mutt. Gives me a great start for getting more into this

[peacefulmind]

I am going to jump in on this, because while there is absolutely no question that I suffer from some self worth issues, that are highly complex and that I don't want to drone on about here.

I do think that something is being missed here and that is that, from many of the stories I have read on this board, a large number of the non's feel a gravitational pull to our exBPD's because many of us were caught coming out of failed marriages or long term relationship, where we are very vulnerable. If these long term relationships failed, the inevitably did so after an extend period of unhappiness which means a state of no love,romance, connection or validation. So even if it isn't something that we have carried forward from our childhood, we crave the validation and immediate closeness that we got from our ex BPD's.

It also fed our desire to be wanted and needed. In other words, it wasn't all about being told how wonderful we are or how attractive we are, but also that someone needed us, wanted our help and praised us when we gave it. It isn't unique to co-dependents to derive good feelings from helping someone we care about or anyone for that matter. Yes, there are selfish people out in the world who don't feel the benefit of helping others but it can hardly be called self serving to want to help and feel good about it.

This was, ultimately what drove me to fall in love with my ex and stick it out. The difficulties she faced and told me about were real. I suspect there were embellishment when it come to relationship recounts but I believed, from having been exposed to some relatives etc. that life was very hard for her growing up. There was a sudden and unexpected death of a parent at the hands of a criminal and more.

I digress, while again, I do believe that there is some childhood stuff in us that contributes but I also believe that it was due to the timing. They hit us at the exact time when we needed a quick resuscitation from a failed previous relationship which has to be separated from the childhood issues we might all have. Many of who know any about our replacements know that many of them have either just come out of a divorce or are clearly at the end of a sour and dead relationship. This is exactly when we very much want someone to take our pain away, to relieve us of the abandonment we feel and the low self worth that is a direct result of a failed relationship and not necessarily a result of childhood traumas.

I am a very strong, independent man, who is introverted in my own way and who can enjoy his own company for extended periods of time. I am in one of those times right now. I still want to eventually find another and this time, I am jumping from a failed marriage into a new relationship because every piece of advice about allowing yourself time to heal, is dead right and spot on. I don't feel the need to delve back into my history but rather learn that being alone has its advantage so that in my next relationship I don't allow fear of being alone be a trap. Even if with my exBPDgf, at the beginning I wasn't charging down to see her, she was calling me and saying I was late etc.

I thought this was important to bring up. =)

I completely agree, LimboFL. Great points.

There are definitely differences in the background stories for the people visiting these boards. One recurrent issue though, is a lot of people mention childhood problems, co-dependency as a trait of their own, and so on. The reason why I brought this up, was to give a bit of perspective to those of us who do in fact carry these childhood issues (I won't call it traumas everytime - my childhood was good, but I was neglected in a way I never realized until now, which has ultimately made me who I am today). I am by no means calling this the definition of why BPDs are allowed into our lives, but it is true for me. I love the discussion this has brought though, and the inputs are great! I appreciate and commend everyone who take their time to chime in

[LimboFL]

Hey peaceful,

Thank you for your response. In no way was I questioning the historical part, because it sounds like you and I had similar experiences. i feel like I had a good childhood, full of adventure and learning but both of my parents, although I knew that they loved me, were very distracted with their social lives. I wasn't left sitting in front of a TV while they went off and partied, by any stretch. They just weren't born parents, which in some ways was fine by me. I did my own thing, played hard etc. I don't think I will even know to what extent it effected me. I know that I was a terror in school, which could have just been my personality or a seek for attention, although one has to wonder why anyone would actively seek the kind of attention I got for these misdeeds.

It's likely a mix of the two, but there is just no question that at the time my exBPDgf came into my life I was distraught from a failed marriage where I was discarded and replaced (to some degree deserved in this case, attributed to my neglect and not anything sinister). I was raw and primed to have a love interest who needed me, appreciated me. My exBPDgf wasn't really even my type, albeit beautiful in her own way, just not what I might have fallen for, but I did and hard. Not because of the idealization but because, then in my mid 40's, I thought more about what was important, that while I did need to be attracted to a woman, that there were superficial expectations that weren't as critical to me anymore. She moved WAY to fast for me and I gently feathered the brakes, but I had a woman in difficult straights that I found attractive and that genuinely needed my help. I wanted to feel that sense of worth rebuild after having it squashed so hard.

Despite my childhood issues, in my 20 year relationship that turned into marriage, I was the independent one, not needed to feel needed or wanted. I was the one who, while deeply loving my ex wife, was quite happy living in my own head and being with friends etc. Reflection on that me has me questioning how much my childhood played a role in my last relationship and how much my hurt and desire not to screw up again played a role in my sticking it out with my exBPDgf. I just don't know.

Again, I know that I have underlying childhood issues but why did they not surface in my 20 year relationship with my ex wife? Maybe because she was devoted unconditionally for most of that relationship that I didn't feel threatened? I don't know.

Interesting dialogue!

[Allmessedup]

Limbo you asked a question that I have thought a lot  about.  My previous long term relationship looked incredibly different than my one with my ex BPD. 

Why is that?

The only answer I can come up with is that my ex triggered the lack of self worth /self esteem  with her behaviors. 

My previous relationship had its issues yes, but there was none of the massive push pull, black white and other things.  I was not ever feeling responsible for my partner in that relationship.  And I did get validation there. 

After the "honeymoon" with my Bpd ex I was always seeking validation that should be natural in a relationship and that brought back the deficits left from my childhood.

But that is as far as I have gotten on that... .thoughts?

Great thread!

[LimboFL]

allmessedup, you raise a very intriguing point. I don't know what the correct answer is. I am not sure if our enduring all of the things you mentioned didn't just boil down to simple empathy. At least for me, I knew very early on that something was up. She broke up with me three months in and being me, I had to understand why and it lead me here. That was 3 years or so ago.

But by then, I had also fallen in love with her. There was no mirroring with my exBPD. She was fiercely independent and would curdle at the thought of appeasing. But, the waif, the sweet young girl showed up regularly, in between the controlling and judgmental Queen. She was a mix of every PD that I have seen written about here. Every one!

I can assure you that it was rough from the start. The wounded bird thing kept me fighting to keep control of things and there is a natural tendency for most to also chase something they end up loving. Not too hard but hard enough to keep going. After all, if everything I have read is correct, this is part and parcel of the BPD's M.O. To keep you continuously on edge because they believe it is the only way to keep us chasing, rather than allowing the relationship to settle into calm and peaceful love, which is actually where the bond grows stronger.

Now with all of that said, where I do see a correlation is that my Mother did put me down a great deal, as did my exBPD, so there is no question that there was an element to it that was me possibly trying to somehow find acceptance. However, a great deal of my emotions were wrapped up in empathy for the proven very hard childhood that she had, that was capped off by the murder of her Father when she was in her late teens. How does one not feel for someone who has suffered so badly. How does one not allow a wide berth of "crazy" when someone has been dealt with such horrible blows, in life? I know that countless suitors walked early. Between my empathy for her and my guilt for my failures in my marriage, I just felt that I needed to hunker down and see this relationship through, as far as I could and by this I don't mean that self flagellation, but rather I felt genuine love for her and I know that, while non sustaining, it was reciprocal.

I think that it was just a soup of so many different things but at it's core was deep love and a genuine view that, at the core, there was a lot of common ground between she and I, in several areas. Again, my ex was way to proud to fake anything to be the girl that I might have dreamed of, in fact, it would have been impossible for her to do so because I am so laid back that I don't have a type. In some of the areas that do matter, she had collections of items (I am a musician so it's a huge part of me) that took a lifetime to accumulate that fit me like a glove and beliefs that were hard set in stone that no one can fake. This is what I felt were part of the glue for me. What bonded me to her. Things that you just cannot fake. These weren't things like pretending to like watching sports etc.

I guess the real point that I wanted to make was that while there is no doubt that we all have childhoods that were complicated (and I read here not too long ago that upwards of 80++% of all people had issues growing up because our parents were/are flawed just as we are) and that these factors undoubtedly play a part in our matting habits but that so many other factors played a role in why we found and stayed. Not least of which, in my opinion was the very last relationship we had prior to meeting our exBPD's, especially for those of us who got out of very difficult long term relationships. I mean someone just posted today that his wife just ran off to be with a man who just lost his wife to cancer (JUST!). A perfect candidate, wouldn't you say? I have empathy for neither, especially the man who finds another after JUST losing his life partner to a devastating illness. One would think a period of grieving would be appropriate. I get the whole, people grieve differently thing but come on!

My 20000 cents. 

[Allmessedup]

 ... .limbo I could have written a majority of your post.

I usually post most often on the PI board but was really intrigued with this whole thread.  My ex too had one of the worst childhood/early adulthood I could ever imagine.  All of her exes treated her like crap too.  This is a major reason that kept me in the relationship as long as I was (almost 5 years).

I also know she loved me too.  And I love her. 

But is not the whole staying and seeing the relationship thru out of guilt either for your past relationship or her traumas she suffered a bit like the whole white knight thing?  Playing he rescuer?

So the question is where did that come from.  That need to rescue? 

Not to hijack this entire thread but I think it comes at least in part from the low self esteem/low self worth topic that originated this thread.    I keep mulling it over in my mind as it's very similar to what I posted today in the PIboard. 

I just can't seem to but the pieces together quite yet... .

Amu

[neverloveagain]

I would have to agree that I to suffer people pleaser attitude and with looking at that part of myself, find my traits not to dissimilar to a BPD person. And hands in air it's just as dysfunctional and unattractive just some food for thought. We all partake 50/50 in relations. She gave me the best gift when she broke my mirror.

[Mutt]

We all partake 50/50 in relations. She gave me the best gift when she broke my mirror.

I agree a relationship takes two.

[jhkbuzz]

I just read this description of the difference between self esteem and self worth (written by a psychologist), and it really resonated with me:

"So what is the difference between self-esteem and self worth? The best way to explain this is by thinking of an external and internal self. Self-esteem relates to they way we feel about ourselves externally, i.e. the way we look, feel, act and the way we are perceived.  Self-worth on the other hand has more to do with an internal sense of self. Self-worth refers to feelings of importance, belonging and identity. Self-worth involves finding meaning in your life and a sense of ownership or purpose. Another way you may want to think of the difference between self-esteem and self-worth is that self-esteem often is based of materialistic drive or ambitions whereas self-worth are intangible traits that need to be harnessed and cultivated.

Clearly there is a difference between self-esteem and self-worth. If you are trying to take steps in your life to feel better and improve yourself, don’t jump to self-help articles for building your self-esteem. Self-esteem appears to be more about how you present to others whereas self-worth is how you appear to yourself. First and foremost love who you are and what you are. Love every part about you and don’t let anyone else tell you otherwise, because ultimately you are the only person that matters.

Think of your improvement or recovery as the construction of a house where your foundation and frame are your self-worth and the finishes and furnishing are your self-esteem. Do you want to be a house made to impress or made to last?"

www.farrelgreenspan.com/blog-edmonton-psychologist-therapy-advice/self-worth

[LimboFL]

allmessedup, yes, absolutely, the White Knight, rescuer is without question a staple in my character. Both of my parents were highly conscientious people.

My Mother had tremendous empathy, as did hers. Whenever she would see someone who was clearly suffering, her line was "I just want to put them under my pillow and protect them". It was for both animals and humans. So my compassion and rescuer mentality was very much ingrained, from the day I was old enough to understand. this, however, is very different than childhood trauma, which is what most of the discussion has revolved around. 

I do appreciate that many responses, in rebuttal, would be "but at what cost? How much do you lose in yourself, when you stay in a relationship out of empathy, when there is clearly abuse?" These are valid but I then return to my previous point about it being a result of a soup of different factors, not least of which includes just pure and simple, love. This isn't something that can just be switched off. No relationship is free of strife. Couples fight disagree and sometimes, in anger, things are said that are difficult to excuse. If you are strong and devoted, you will accept a great deal more, even if logically, you should not have to. Love makes us do so many things that would be out of character, otherwise.

My only boundary was fidelity. The emotional flash in the pan, relationships she took me close to the end but when she was finally lining up the replacement, that was it and I booked. That was my only hard and fast rule. The rest I was learning to deal with because there are ways to do so, like not reacting to the insults which only served to elevate the situation.

To close, I do not question anyone who has had an awakening, after these devastating break ups, a realization that there were many things in their childhood that effect them. I do not doubt for a second that this has had an impact on how my character was shaped, good and bad. My only objective in speaking on this was to plant the seed that our choices in these relationships were made as a result of so many different variables, all of which have formed who we are today. The very last relationship being a key variable that influenced why we chose and stayed with our exBPD's. I stayed almost 4 years. I would have stayed with her to the end of time.

[peacefulmind]

... .limbo I could have written a majority of your post.

I usually post most often on the PI board but was really intrigued with this whole thread.  My ex too had one of the worst childhood/early adulthood I could ever imagine.  All of her exes treated her like crap too.  This is a major reason that kept me in the relationship as long as I was (almost 5 years).

I also know she loved me too.  And I love her. 

But is not the whole staying and seeing the relationship thru out of guilt either for your past relationship or her traumas she suffered a bit like the whole white knight thing?  Playing he rescuer?

So the question is where did that come from.  That need to rescue? 

Not to hijack this entire thread but I think it comes at least in part from the low self esteem/low self worth topic that originated this thread.    I keep mulling it over in my mind as it's very similar to what I posted today in the PIboard. 

I just can't seem to but the pieces together quite yet... .

Amu

To me, the need to rescue stems from a need to be validated through my actions. In this case, my exBPD has had a rough life, no doubt, and has been treaten unfairly in some occassions (whether any of this is true is something I have started to question though - I suspect my ex to have been a huge part of the victim scenarios that was described to me). For me, to be a part of this complex life and being told that I helped and was a solid rock in the relationship to my ex, embraced my need to feel validated. I don't know if you follow me? I understand the white knight complex, and that it is part of something more than just this, but personally I find it intriguing that the one thing that I craved the most, was manifested in the words of my exBPD, about how I was important and could save her from the problems which persisted in her life. Supporting one's SO is part of any relationship, but what I've learned is, that I should not take other people's problems on as my own. They are, ultimately, their problems. I can support, guide, and advice, but never be drawn into the situations like I allowed myself to be. Had my self-worth been higher, I would've also realized this, because my perception of problematic situations in my ex's life would be entirely different.