Hiding Abuse In Families; Exposure, Aftermath, Healing

[Turkish]

My uBPDx grew up in a violent and emotional invalidating household. The violence largely stopped after she moved out about 15 years ago, but her father's serial cheating did not. He emotional unavailable to all of his kids, not just the girls. Still, the family hides and denies to stay together.

I recently had to call the authorities based upon what sounded like molestation of D3 (with S5 as a witness). The accused was my Ex's 17 year old brother. He denies it, of course. After the investigation was closed, it was made clear that we as parents needed to keep our children safe. So they are no longer being baby-sat at grandma's house while uncle 17 lives there. Given that my Ex's 25 year old brother and 39 year old brother still live there, this could be indefinite.

Of course, I'm the bad guy. I don't mind. Grandma called D3 a liar when our daughter mentioned what happened again "Uncle touched my butt [privates]" and whined to her mom two weeks after they were removed from that household. It came down to my Ex's mom believing her son, and my Ex saying, "well, I believe my kids." JADE on both sides. It's understandable, and I don't know what would have been the proper response there.

And so the family moves on. Parties and get-togethers. My Ex was showing me pictures today and I got depressed (I guess that's about me, maybe I do mind being the pariah a little). My T thinks that they will eventually "get over it;" me calling the cops. That was the second time D3 told me, but S5 demonstrating how their uncle poked her sealed it: I called in the troops. I called my T first (because he was a mandatory reporter) to tell him what the kids said, and he said "your daughter is being molested. Call the cops and CPS today, or I will have to).

S5 had previously told his mom something to this effect. She told grandma at the time (who called her "crazy", and the uncle denied it. I was never told about this first time. There's a lot of FOG in that family, and there are cultural issues at play as well where you don't defy the family.

My question is for those here who have been the victims of sexual abuse or had a family member, is there ever any healing in the family, even if you or a loved one was made safe afterwards? My Ex is trying to reconcile her family and I (I was invited over to a bbq at their house today, but I declined; it's not her house to invite me). I don't know if I should try to approach them at all, if ever. The one conversation I had with grandma, only 3 weeks after it happened, didn't go well, even through my Ex as a translator. She also minimized that her 39 year old son had raised his hand in threat to slap S5 and also spanked him thereafter, though he had no permission. I found this out afterwards. To him, I'm a [insert foul language here] because of what I "did to their family." Funny, but I thought that his niece and nephew were family!

I've been reading a lot on this lately, and it seems that this family split is pretty typical. The stats on how much it happens are heartbreaking. I feel alone and isolated, yet I'm still very angry that our children, like their aunts and uncles (especially the eldest 3) are not safe in that family. I was unsure where to post something like this, but I think this speaks to a whole family dynamic, so I posted here in hopes that someone could offer some insight or even tell their stories.

Turkish

[Leaving]

Turkish,

I'm not going to elaborate on my own sexual abuse by mother but let me say this, as a cynic, NO.  I don't believe ( GENERALLY SPEAKING)  there is any overall family healing because those who tend to deny the truth always deny the truth to some degree.  Even when the facts are clear, they find a way to diminish and distort them and excuse them.  I've heard every excuse you can image- even that the person needed to take more vitamins.  

The other issue is that dysfunction in these families existed before the abuse occurred and therefore, everyone was hardwired to perform a specific role in the family which makes it even more difficult for any healing to occur since everyone in the family would have to seek therapy relative to their role in the dysfunctional dynamic. Everyone's role is hinged to enabling someone else's role and so when ONE member of the family is guilty, then they all become guilty.  What I find so bizarre and interesting is that they can see and judge the same crime perpetrated in other families but not in their own.  I think this is due to their ability to compartmentalize their own guilt and shame and see themselves as separate and unique from other perps.

For all those reading, please forgive my callous negative attitude about this but I've known so many victims of sexual abuse and I've never once known any abuser or parent of the victim to sincerely admit their compliance and make amends and help the victim to heal.

The recent story in the news about that Christian TV reality show family ( help me out, can't think of their names) with 18 or so kids is the classic example of what I'm describing.  The parents knew their son was molesting two of their daughters and other young girls but essentially slapped him on the hand and  left it up to G-d to heal him.  The young man is married now and has a young baby of his own and his wife overlooks his past behavior- failing to see that her own child could be at risk- and she aligns with her in laws' denial. The clan mother continued to have children even though she knew her son had a history of molestation.  But, even worse, just because they are Christians, they even have fans who have fallen hook line and sinker for the excuses and choose denial.  

Denial is selfish and only serves to protect those who choose it.  It's the coward's way- the easy way- and it's contagious because it's the path of least resistance.

[bethanny]

Turkish,

You are in a crazymaking situation but thank God you are so strong and protecting those vulnerable children.  They need someone out of that toxic matrix to role model sanity and safety.

I don't understand minimization of immoral behavior in our culture but it certainly happens with lots of group-think in all kinds of groups.  families, workplaces, military groups, political parties, corporate opportunists, police forces, etc.

A group decides thumbs up or thumbs down about one of its members sometimes and suddenly it is about cronyism and not reality and the whole group succumbs to peer pressure against the messenger of reality and morality. You know that saying about what too often happens to messengers?

How courageous and right to have called the police. Of course there is a lot of guilt from these dangerous people projected out onto you.  And enablers of those people who of course don't want to accept the dark and horrifying reality!

I am so glad your ex is not seduced by the cronyism to deny what happened, though that cronyism can seduce one to minimize the seriousness going on, erode one's perspective. I hope it won't.  Keep talking here about it and with your T.  Your T sounds like strong back up for you.  Another base camp to offer support and a place for real processing reality.

Stay strong.  It is not fair that real loving and strong behavior should be punished and not acknowledged and respected but those are the consequences brought on by those not in recovery who want to punish those who illuminate their need for it.

I wonder if the kids and you and your ex need a group sit down with a T about what happened. This is serious and traumatizing stuff.

Best, Bethanny

[bethanny]

Leaving makes some great points! Families can be like a cult. There is also a saying, a person or a group can see a flea on someone else, but not an elephant on himself, herself or themselves!  Denial, minimization, rationalization ... .fight them all!   

[Turkish]

Leaving,

What you wrote is exactly how I see it, and is in line with the things I've been reading about how it usually plays out in families. Thankfully, my Ex was strong enough to say "if my brother did it, then he needs help, even if he needs to go to jail."

Bethanny, we want the kids to move past this. They are very young. I did get my Ex to come with me to the T (the one she abandoned me to in couples' counseling to get "fixed" coming up on two years ago), and he was very direct after I told the story to him in person: "It happened."

So she confronted her brother:

":)o you know what molestation is?"

"Uh, it's unwanted touching."

*sigh* that isn't the definition.

When I got D3 back the second time, the night before I called, her vulva were red. When I put diaper cream on there, she said, "Uncle touched my butt!" and whined to me. There is no reason she should have been irritated because she is months out of diapers, and she was fine in the morning when I dropped her off. Part of me still doesn't want to believe this, but what's done is done.

Speaking of religious cover-ups, I found a Christian couple who has a ministry to change attitudes in the church, and protect children:

www.childrefuge.org/child-molestation/intra-familial-molestation.html

Child sexual abuse is a prevalent issue in the United States and even within the Christian church. 1 in 4 girls and 1 in 6 boys are sexually abused before age 18. This is an epidemic. Molestation is a kind of sexual abuse that comes in different forms. It involves consistent sexual contact with a victim that is usually an acquaintance.

[Harri]

Turkish, I am so very sorry that this happened.  I read this post a couple of days ago and so many things sprang to mind all at once that I could not reply.  I am concerned for all of you as this sort of thing causes damage to everyone involved.  You definitely did the right thing (as I am sure you know) by calling the authorities.  I am not surprised at all that you acted in a way to protect your children.  I can only try to imagine the grief pain and anger you must have feel.  Well done on working it through and taking appropriate action.   

Regarding the split of the family, I agree that it is both typical and heartbreaking.  The thing is, even if the 'family' were to accept that this happened, then what?  Would they report their son?  Insist that he get help?  How successful is help for that kind of thing anyway?  Assuming he did get help and was then considered safe, would you ever feel able to leave your kids with him/them again?  Those are just a few of the questions that spring to mind when I consider your question "is there ever any healing in the family, even if you or a loved one was made safe afterwards?"  I am not sure healing is possible in a family that is content to deny abuse and has done so for decades.  Are they the kind of people you want your kids to have as close family?  Are they the kind of people who are capable and more importantly worthy of being your close family members?  Family does not deny, minimize, attempt to turn the tables on you and accuse you of messing up the *Family* as a defense for their own bad and abusive behaviors.  (okay, that part of my rant is over!)

Turkish, your family is you, your kids, your ex (simply because she is their mother **and** because it seems she is putting her kids first over the rest of her family.  The other members of your family are your friends.  Those close to you who know you, love you and your kids and would put their own lives on the line to protect and support you and yours.  Even if there is only one person like that in your life, you are not alone.  It does hurt to learn, and in such a horrifying way, that who you thought were family are not to be trusted.  I have no words of comfort for that other than to say thank God you found out as relatively quickly as you did.  There can be healing for you and your kids.  You will get through this and this does not have to be a life long event that defines any of you.  Are you planning on getting your kids into therapy?

A few thoughts that sprang to mind when i first read your post are obviously biased by my own experiences but I am going to share them here anyway.  Take what fits and leave the rest: 

• I am concerned that your daughter and son will interpret their not going to grandmas any more as their fault in some way.  I think you need to be very careful in terms of how you answer any questions they may have about that.  Phrases like 'because he hurt you/your sister" can be interpreted by kids as their fault.  I have no idea what the appropriate explanation is though.
  
  The fact that your ex is already trying to arrange a reconciliation concerns me.  It seems too soon at the very least and it certainly is not her place to orchestrate such a thing.  You said you do not know if you should approach them.  IMO, they are the ones who should be approaching you, not the other way around. 
  
  While your daughter was the one who was molested, your son is at risk for long term consequences as well.  I am sure you know that being a witness to abuse of any kind is damaging but I just wanted to put that here.
  
  

Turkish, what would reconciliation look like to you?  Secondly, why would you want it with them?  Is it because the idea of family is important to you and you want your children to have a traditional sort of family? 

Turkish, I believe you will all come through this.  I am thankful that your kids have you in their corner.  That will make a huge difference.  In the meantime, take some time to feel whatever it is you feel and to grieve as well.   

[Turkish]

Harri,

Thank you for your support and wisdom.

The kids are never to go back there while U17 lives there. Period. CPS made that clear.

My T said if the kids asked, "it wasn't safe for you there." They mention it since their mom brings them there... .supervised. CPS implied to not bring them back there at all. I can't control that. I'm watching... .carefully. Not to get into Karpman Triangle drama, but I am by default the Persecutor. I won't engage. And you're darn right that they should approach me! U21, who just got back from college, is the only one I've been in contact with,.and it's touch and go. He did resoond positively when I reached out to him to go target shooting next weekend (I don't think hr'll go Chris Kyle on me). He's actually the only one I care about. He said he looks to me as a mentor. It's hard for him.

I don't know what recinciliation looks like. I can't imagine her mom not telling the extended family. I should ask my Ex. I won't have to worry about it until S5's birthday come winter, seeing everybody.

My T didn't think that the kids needed counseling. I'd like them to move past this, but it's inevitable that they will find out. S5 is old enough for this to become a permanent memory. D3... .maybe, hard to say.

I totally get that our son was abused by witnessing it, too. Three weeks ago, I was reading a book to him that the trauma center gave us and he sneakily touched my privates. It was purposeful. I grabbed his hand and probably chastised him a little harshly. My Ex said he tried the same thing with her husband (and he went and told her). S5's explanation was that D3 touched him there and it felt good. I don't know of that's all it is or if he was a victim, too. He's open when he is, but I think he also doesn't tell me a lot of things. I ran this by the T and he seemed to think S5's story may have been true. I've been telling the kids about boundaries.

The other night, I left the room as they were getting ready for bed. I came back in and D3 said, "S5 touched my butt!" I asked him where he touched her. He said on her belly. I asked her to tell the truth, and she pointed to her belly... I told both of them that it's important to tell the truth. Things like that make me doubt... .Was their uncle just poking her belly? Still... .she is associating pain on her vagina with her uncle "touching my butt."

[Harri]

Hi again Turkish.  I feel so sad reading your posts on this subject.  Navigating how to handle this must be so painful and bewildering, though I have no doubt you will figure things out.  I like your T's suggested response--  "it wasn't safe for you there."  Have you thought of how you will handle any questions about why you are not willing to take them there because it is not safe but their mother is willing to do so?  They may not ask that question now at their ages, but I think it will eventually occur to them to question it, even if they never ask the question out loud.  (**again, please remember that my own experiences are and will continue to color my responses here.  I find it impossible to not project here.)

Not to get into Karpman Triangle drama, but I am by default the Persecutor

Well in the eyes of your exes family, yes you are.  I am glad to see you say you will not engage (I assume in not taking up the role of persecutor as has been assigned to you).  Do not let their distorted and disordered perceptions affect how you view your very healthy and protective behaviors in this situation.  Do not let their distorted perceptions of the world and what family is cause you to doubt the correctness of your actions in this case.  I say that because in your first post here you wrote:

"And so the family moves on. Parties and get-togethers. My Ex was showing me pictures today and I got depressed (I guess that's about me, maybe I do mind being the pariah a little). My T thinks that they will eventually "get over it;" me calling the cops.

While I have never been in your particular circumstances as the father of two precious kids who were abused, I have been in the position of being viewed as the bad guy and the destroyer of the 'Family" (note the capital F   )  It hurts and it sucks and it is not fair to be seen that way for simply taking care of your children!  The only way I could start to work through that was to allow myself to get good and angry and remind myself over and over that I made the right choice.  I even at some points said to myself you are darned right I destroyed the Family... .it was never a true family to begin with and if anything it *needed* to be torn down.  Turkish, you are not the persecutor and pariah.  This is one of those rare situations where it is right and healthy to be a rescuer and to a certain extent a 'persecutor'!  I know the goal on this Board is to repair the family unit (   ) but why preserve something that is rotten at it's core?  How can that be healthy?  Is it really a good thing?

You and your kids are primary here, but maybe, just maybe, Uncle21 may benefit from this as well.  Just keep being the man he knows you to be and looks to as a mentor and he just might be the one to break the cycle of dysfunction in that family.  Yes, it is hard for him.  Hopefully this situation will enable him to make better choices.  (okay, got off topic there, but I really mean what I wrote)

Three weeks ago, I was reading a book to him that the trauma center gave us and he sneakily touched my privates. It was purposeful. I grabbed his hand and probably chastised him a little harshly. My Ex said he tried the same thing with her husband (and he went and told her). S5's explanation was that D3 touched him there and it felt good. I don't know of that's all it is or if he was a victim, too. He's open when he is, but I think he also doesn't tell me a lot of things. I ran this by the T and he seemed to think S5's story may have been true. I've been telling the kids about boundaries.

So many alarms going off here.  I have never researched this part of child development and I do not really know what is considered normal/age appropriate.  I do know that some kids are very aware of the pleasure that can be achieved by touching sexual organs and I know it can be used as a method to self-soothe.  Touching another person though at the ages of 3 and 5?  It seems young to me.  Keep an eye on things and maybe read up on sexual development/sexual arousal in children.  I will do a bit of research too and if I find anything I can pass along the info (let me know if that is okay, otherwise I won't   )

The other night, I left the room as they were getting ready for bed. I came back in and D3 said, "S5 touched my butt!" I asked him where he touched her. He said on her belly. I asked her to tell the truth, and she pointed to her belly... I told both of them that it's important to tell the truth. Things like that make me doubt... .Was their uncle just poking her belly? Still... .she is associating pain on her vagina with her uncle "touching my butt."

:'(  I think questioning and doubting is normal.  What parent, heck, what sane and healthy person for that matter, wants to have this happen to kids?  You did the right thing Turkish.  CPS investigated and found reason to recommend your kids stay away from Uncle17 and your T believes it happened.  You did the right thing.    

My T didn't think that the kids needed counseling. I'd like them to move past this, but it's inevitable that they will find out. S5 is old enough for this to become a permanent memory. D3... .maybe, hard to say.

Let the kids drive your decision here regarding counseling.  Do some research and keep watching your kids.  They are, to my very biased and untrained eye, already exhibiting some concerning behaviors.  The only way to move past this is to move through it.  If that means some counseling, then do it.  I think it is a fine line to navigate.  Too much attention to it will send the wrong message and possibly lead to big problems and too little will do the same.  Yes, your son will remember.  Your daughter may not have a visual/auditory memory of what happened, but the feelings can and I believe will be remembered.  Many people who were abused at a very young age have no vivid memory, just emotional memories, feelings of something being wrong and off, of knowing something happened.  Kids can sense so many things at very young ages. 

Truth is what will help and heal.  When to share the info and how to do it though?  I have no idea.

Wishing peace of mind and heart to you and yours Turkish.   

[ShieldsUp12]

Turkish, as someone who was inappropriately touched by her SF, and had a FOO who basically turned a blind eye, allowed it to go on, accused me of not being "loving enough" for protesting the abuse, and then called me crazy, and THEN to top it all off tried to accuse (to me) a relative who I loved dearly and had nothing to do with my abuse, I'd just like you to know, I am so, so happy that you have done this. Thank you so much for standing strong for your D3 and supporting her. All of the things I had to go through and the invalidation damaged me more that I knew for a long time in ways I'm only really starting to understand because I wanted to deny it for so long to myself. You know - "I'm fine." (No I wasn't)

Leaving, thank you so much for your post, it is so true and really explains the twisted dynamic of a disordered family. It helped me make sense of my own situation.

[Kwamina]

Hi again Turkish

I think you've gotten some great replies here. Like I said in another thread, I'm very sorry this has happened to your daughter and that your son witnessed the abuse.

My question is for those here who have been the victims of sexual abuse or had a family member, is there ever any healing in the family, even if you or a loved one was made safe afterwards?

Healing... .perhaps. But trust? I don't think so. As a parent your main priority is protecting your own children and I am very glad that you're doing just that. I am also very pleased that your ex stepped up and confronted her family.

After what happened, I personally feel like all trust is gone. No matter how much they might try to minimize this, what happened is a very big deal. I also think it's important to keep another thing in mind, it wasn't the first time:

S5 had previously told his mom something to this effect. She told grandma at the time (who called her "crazy", and the uncle denied it. I was never told about this first time.

Especially in cases such as this I'd say the best predictor of future behavior is past behavior. Being seen as the 'bad guy' or persecutor isn't pleasant, but keep in mind that this is only their distorted view of who you are. In my view you're a hero and rescuer and protector of your children and even your BPD ex has really stepped up here.

a main exit way off the triangle is through the persecutor position. This does not mean we become persecutors. It does mean however, that once we decide to get off the triangle, there most likely will be those who see us as persecutors. (”How can you do this to me?”) Once we decide to take self-responsibility and tell our truth, those still on the triangle are likely to accuse us of victimizing them. "How dare you refuse to take care of me," a Victim might cry. Or "What do you mean you don't need my help?" a primary enabler storms when their victim decides to become accountable. In other words, to escape the victim grid, we must be willing to be perceived as the "bad guy." This doesn't make it so, but we must be willing to sit with the discomfort of being perceived as such.

It's your ex's family so I at some level do understand why she would attempt some sort of reconciliation, but as I see it, reconciliation without truth and honesty isn't possible. And even if you were to (partially) reconcile, certain bonds of trust can't be repaired. The safety of your two children is most important.

I know the goal on this Board is to repair the family unit (    but why preserve something that is rotten at it's core?  How can that be healthy?  Is it really a good thing?

Thanks for raising this point Harri! I think the primary goal of this board is to learn members how best to cope with their BPD family-members and how to heal themselves. Healing yourself might indirectly also have positive consequences for the family-unit as a whole, but the primary goal is to heal yourself and protect your own well-being. In this case, also to heal your children and protect their well-being.

My T didn't think that the kids needed counseling. I'd like them to move past this, but it's inevitable that they will find out. S5 is old enough for this to become a permanent memory. D3... .maybe, hard to say.

Let the kids drive your decision here regarding counseling.  :)o some research and keep watching your kids.  They are, to my very biased and untrained eye, already exhibiting some concerning behaviors.  The only way to move past this is to move through it.  If that means some counseling, then do it.  I think it is a fine line to navigate.  Too much attention to it will send the wrong message and possibly lead to big problems and too little will do the same.  Yes, your son will remember.  Your daughter may not have a visual/auditory memory of what happened, but the feelings can and I believe will be remembered.  Many people who were abused at a very young age have no vivid memory, just emotional memories, feelings of something being wrong and off, of knowing something happened.  Kids can sense so many things at very young ages.  

Truth is what will help and heal.  When to share the info and how to do it though?  I have no idea.

Wishing peace of mind and heart to you and yours Turkish.  

I agree with Harri here and would advise you to be very mindful of the behaviors your children exhibit. Harri puts it beautifully when she says "Let the kids drive your decision here regarding counseling.". Watch your kids, educate yourself as best as possible and follow your instincts.

Take care Turkish

Kwamina the board parrot

[Turkish]

SU12, I am so sorry that you were not protected. My shame is not reporting it the first time. As The Parrot said, this went on.

Harri, thank you so much. I know your abuse went on to adulthood, and you:re still strugglng with wanting a perfect... .no... .just a parent(s) who would protect you.

D3 mentioned it again last week. I asked her to wash herself in the bath. She asked me to, and I said that only she or the doctor should touch her down there. Then she said, "U17 touched my butt."

Late last night, my Ex texted me asking questions about my weekend with the kids. I said that D3 mentioned it again, then she called me. She said that D3 had also mentioned it to her.Myex towel dries D3 between the legs. I don't do that.  I let her air dry. D3 told her mom, "don't touch it!" And then told her mom about U17 touching her. What is confusing is that D3 asked to see U17 this weekend, and both kids wanted to go to grandma's house. I validatd them, then said no.

I know that my Ex isn't sexually abusing the kids, but I'm going to tel, her tomorrow to stop drying off our daughter with the towel between her legs. D3 is asserting a boundary, and her mom s ignoring it due to her anxiety.

[Turkish]

D3 mentioned it again last night. I said, "I know, baby, but that happened a long time ago." S5 said, "she's lying. U17 never touched her butt," contradicting what he's said all along. Then i started thinkng, "was this all a mistake?" I said, "S5, you said before that he did. I called the police." He just looked at me. I texted their mom and she said that he probably said that since it happened two months ago. I feel that she's right (her impression was what my instincts told me), but i still doubt, as if this was all a mistake. That I messed everything up for no reason.

Made an appointment with the T on Monday to get some advice.

[Kwamina]

D3 mentioned it again last night. I said, "I know, baby, but that happened a long time ago." S5 said, "she's lying. U17 never touched her butt," contradicting what he's said all along. Then i started thinkng, "was this all a mistake?" I said, "S5, you said before that he did. I called the police." He just looked at me. I texted their mom and she said that he probably said that since it happened two months ago. I feel that she's right (her impression was what my instincts told me), but i still doubt, as if this was all a mistake. That I messed everything up for no reason.

Made an appointment with the T on Monday to get some advice.

It could very well be that S5 was referring to the present moment and not to what happened 2 months ago.

This is a difficult situation to be in for you. I understand how this could make you second-guess yourself, but how would you have felt if you hadn't taken any action? How would you have felt now if you hadn't called the police after what your daughter and son told you?

I think there are also certain other signs that clearly indicate something is going on here. Like your daughter's sudden strong reaction to her mother towel drying her. And certain changes in your son's behavior that you mentioned earlier. You might not have witnessed the act of abuse with your own eyes, but you are witnessing certain changes in your children's behavior that to me strongly indicate something happened.

I am glad you have your T to help you deal with all of this.

[Turkish]

Thanks, Parrot. I can't believe I'm still struggling with this.

Saw the T today. I took up half the session talking about my mom  

He's still sure something happened, then offered, "is someone telling him to say that?"

There were the usual assurances that D3 was ok, though at some point she would be D17, thinking about U35, "why did you do that?"

I picked the kids up from her apartment. Grandma was watching them. I had called my Ex who called her mom (since she speaks only Spanish, though I can get by to greet and communicate a little). Waiting for her mom to bring the kids out, my Ex said that S5 told her that he had lied about the whole thing.    went non-linear (previously hard for me because I'm a peacemaker, but I've found my inner wolf). My Ex reassured me that she was something like wisemind, but I said that if anyone (her mom, unsaid), was putting things in his head that it amounted to emotional abuse. She said that she was with me on this, and I said that I wasn't angry at her. I told her I had seen the T today. I put in a voice message. Hopefully, it won't be another $185 for a session, but if need be... .then so be it!

[Turkish]

What the Therapist said

He finally called me back. He said that this was normal for S5 to start changing his story now. At his age, it may have taken him this long to process why things are so different (that they aren't watched at grandma's and don't go over there as much). It could also be that he is changing his story because he feels guilty, like it was his fault. [my aside here: not for the touching, per se, but for the change in schedule, and limited access to certain family members]. If S5 brought it up again, we were to say something along the lines of: "It's ok, S5. We believe you that you told the truth the first time, it was the right thing to do, telling us that U17 touched D3." He said it was important to not overreact, but to be calm.

The way the T explained it, it felt like he's seen this situation before. He's also a child T.

[Harri]

Turkish, thanks for the update.  You and your wolf cubs ( ) have been on my mind quite a bit. 

What is confusing is that D3 asked to see U17 this weekend, and both kids wanted to go to grandma's house. I validatd them, then said no.

D3 wanting to see her uncle (and G-ma) sounds about right to me.  In spite of what my mother was doing to me, I was very very close to her.  I sought her out and wanted to spend time with her when i was young and even at points when i was an adult).  I don't know if this is accurate, but I have always attributed it to the primitive survival instinct that seems to have been further strengthened (in my case) through the Stockholm Syndrome. 

I'm so glad your kids have you watching over them.  And i am thrilled you have found your inner wolf!

[Turkish]

 Thank you Harri!

I felt that it took until my mid 30s to learn to be assertive, then in my early 40s to learn to advocate for myself. This experience has taught me to "man up" and advocate for those who can't protect themselves. If anything, this is the positive of my split from their mom: to not be influenced by the pressure of the narcissistic family dynamics where the individuals serve as objects to validate the family unit.

I thought you. I thought about my mom, whose molestation rape occured in the 1940s and '50s. Also about you, and others who have told their stories here. Not to mention the perhaps countless lurkers who suffer in shame, even though the abuse was not their faults. My Ex was also abused by a person long dead  :'(

She was upset that I told my friends,."I don't want people to look at D3 differently." But I feel that something which occurs n 25% of families should not be hidden (that motivation is shame, is it not?). The shame is on the perpetrators and the enablers who cover it up.

[Suzn]

Turk I wanted to add that you have a storyline from a 3 year old and you saw physical evidence that something just wasn't right. One without the other I could see doubting your actions but you have both. My nephew has said things that weren't true however I tried to look at whether or not the topic was something that a 3 year old would know anything about under normal circumstances.

I think it's awesome you have the guidance of your T to help you through this.  I think you did the right thing involving authorities and your T.

[Turkish]

Its good, Suzn, and I'm protecting myself.

Yesterday, she fell asleep in the car on the 20 min drive home. She awoke around 6, peed the bed. She came out to the living room where her brother and I were watchng tv. She was soaked. She threw a tantrum on even being changed. I also said that she needed a bath, but she threw a bigger tantrum. So I just wiped her down (legs), changed her, and put them to bed. They took over my bed, so I slept on the trundle in their room. I'm trying to get mostly her out f co-sleeping. It's time.

This morning, I was firm that she needed a bath. She threw a tantrum, refused to sit down, so it was more of a shower-bath. I took them to an event today where there were jumpers. The kids sweated profusely. I bathed her again tonight. She was compliant. After I got her out, I noticed that she was more irritated. I told her she needed diaper cream (after we got home, I put her in a diaper for a nap, and retained pee probably exacerbated the irritation). She said, "don't touch it." I told her I was not going to put it on her vagina, but her butt. I demonstrated on myself by making motions. She was ok with that.

I emailed their mom about what I just wrote. To document. I still, feel anxious as if I'm going to get hauled diwntown over a misunderstanding. As the year goes by, at least her language and cognitive skills will mature. Both kids are asleep in their beds, securely this night, so its better. D3 will likely wander in around 5:30 as she did early this morning to cuddle, and that seems ok.