kids counseling

[Godslove]

My 6yr is being sensitive. He didn't seem to put much opinion or thoughts last year when separation started. After one year, he is drawing a picture of BPD and I getting married, a note from school he is having difficulty focusing that he has something in his mind. He asks me if we can live together again and he misses our old house. He made mistakes on his pants three times at school toward end of the school year. It never happened before. He told me last time that daddy says you are not his wife anymore and Ms. R is his wife now. I told him that we are not divorced yet but going to be and mommy is okay with daddy with R. so not to be sad or stressed about it. I don't know what eles to say. J6 said that mommy has a boyfriend and when I asked I do? He said yes, it is me! He has been getting the school counseling with his sister 7yr since Jan. H7 was sad last year but I see her getting herself back this year.

I didn't quite trust the school counselor since I and the teachers had to contact him numerous times to have him see my children and he kept forgetting. School is over for summer break. I want to take him to private counselor, preferred to my counselor.

I emailed BPD about my concerns that I want to take him to a counselor outside of the school. Also, about kids sports activities. No response from him. My contract says after one mediation, I am the tie breaker. I enrolled kids to the sports anyway without requesting any mediation. I know he doesn't care if he does not have to pay. I have his email saying "I have to limit the kids activities I contribute due to low budget."

* would it be a problem? Should I let my L know what has been going on?

* Now for counseling, I don't know what to do. My counselor says that she will need BPD's writing to agree kids seeing her. Also she said he will never agree. I can find another one who does not know my BPD but will he agree then? When he doesn't even respond to my email of kids welfare concerns, what should I do? Have my L send a letter every time?

[bravhart1]

I think as far as the T is concerned it depends on what your actual custody is. Who has legal custody or is it 50/50?

If you have full legal custody, you would be within your rights to take your child to whomever you choose, so long as you notify the other parent so that if they had an objection they could ask the court to intervene.

If you have 50/50, then I think the T is right he or she must have a signed release from the other parent to speak to a minor child. If the other parent won't agree, I believe you may need to get your L involved to persuade the other parent to agree, or to ask for a hearing to get judge to rule you may do it without other parents consent.

[scraps66]

This is a tricky and difficult topic if it's 50/50.  I have on numerous occasions tired to involve my exBPD/NPD to get our S10 help through outside counseling.  At the onset I even took her to court to get her to consent to counseling, because she wasn't.  Frankly, court was of little to no help and she still did not abide by court orders.  The fact is, in the BPs toolbox, are passive-aggressive means of control through not communicating.  Your BP probably knows that, one, if the child does go to a counselor there is the chance that the child says something that, if overheard by the BP, could be damning to the BP (this may involve some extraordinary misinterpretation by the BP), if the child is seeing a counselor that the BP does not agree with, the counselor or the counseling, that represents a loss of control by the BP and then you have the passive-aggressive lack of communication.  No communication means no consent which means no counseling.  The BP is controlling.  BP's do not have the rational perspective and capacity to understand that what they are doing could be hurting the child or preventing the child from getting help that is needed.

In my state I know that a social worker, as opposed to a Dr, will see a child without consent.  But, this has to do with the office that the social worker is employed by.  The office may abide by the greater cannon of ethics and require both parents consent.

I would check to see what that tie-breaker clause looks like, is it for everything?  I'm thinking most offices will not read that Order and interpret it and allow you to bring the child in for counseling without the other parent.

One other thing, you could try to go see someone and if they ask what the custody is, you just say "I have custody," or something to that effect.  At that very time, if with 50/50, you do have custody.  It may be joint legal custody, but at that very time you are in custody of the child.  This is a low percentage possibility.  In my experience most offices are paranoid about not having both parents involved.     

[ForeverDad]

My counselor says that she will need BPD's writing to agree kids seeing her. Also she said he will never agree. I can find another one who does not know my BPD but will he agree then? When he doesn't even respond to my email of kids welfare concerns, what should I do? Have my L send a letter every time?

You don't have to blindly search for another counselor, at least, not on your own.  Surely your counselor can recommend others who are perceptive, effective and reputable.  It is possible that, if pressed by ex, that the court would agree the children should not have counseling with one of the parents' counselors.  Although another counselor in the firm should be okay... .

Presumably you do need to notify your ex.  (I wouldn't encourage him to attend sessions when you bring your son, he could bring son during his parenting time.)However, if he doesn't respond then proceed.  Once you've given him notice and he doesn't even respond, then I don't see why repeated follow-up notices or letters are required?

After all, your daughter already has some level of counseling, right?  That's your foot in the door to extend counseling to son too.

My lawyer always told me, courts love counseling.  I doubt your court would ever tell parents, "If one of you opposes counseling the there will be no counseling."  Rather, the court is more likely to set a structure and process for counseling.

[livednlearned]

Hi Godslove,

Your son sounds like he's really struggling  :'(

Individual counseling has been a godsend, it can heal a lot more than just the child. I've learned so much from S13's therapists, so I hope you find someone you like as much as the kids like. It's so unfortunate that the school counselor was not there for you in the way you needed.

My divorce broke me financially and therapy for S13 came a close second. At some point, without even making a decision about it, we sort of ended therapy with S13's first T. About six months passed, and he ended up in a very dark depression. I am learning to have the emotional skills needed for secure attachment in myself, so my own ability to help S13 has been shaky. I have become very good at validating him, but there are some repair/recovery skills that I struggle with (second-guessing what is appropriate to say or do, and sometimes masking my own feelings).

It's been hard to try and use these skills with my son now that he's hitting the teen years and starting to sink deeper into dysfunctional coping responses.

The earlier you get your kids into T, the better.

I agree with FD that courts love counseling. You might want to write your L and ask, "What are consequences of getting kids into counseling without consent from H?" Lawyers are counselors, they can advise you what is best, and when you tell them you are thinking of xyz, that tells them what they may need to prepare for if things get messy.

One thing you could do is to think through a long-term strategy. This means setting things up so you can win in court if it comes to that. Pick three Ts that are a good fit for S6.

Write L to get a sense of how things work.

Write H a note, "I have received a recommendation for a T from so-and-so and S6 will be meeting for an appointment. Please send me three dates that work for you to meet with T by day/date so we can get S6 into counseling before the school year. If you have someone else in mind, please send to me by day/date."

If he sabotages this first T, you have a second T on deck. The note is pro-active, brief, and inviting him to participate.

Same with the second T, if they are sabotaged, have a third one lined up. This might be the T that does not require permission from the co-parent.

Then start counseling. If H makes a fuss, ask him to please refer to his lawyer about how he wishes to proceed because it is imperative that S6 receives counseling.

Do not give him the choice about whether S6 receives counseling, only give him the choice about how he wishes to obstruct.

Hopefully this will not end up in court. However, if it does, it's likely that any efforts to stonewall or obstruct T for S6 will be frowned upon, and you may end up with legal custody of the kids.

This was a factor in my case -- I ended up with legal custody because there were so many instances where N/BPDx could not focus on what was best for S13, especially therapy.

[Godslove]

Thank you for all of your advise. Yes. Mine is 50/50 with one mediation if there is no agreement, then I am the tie breaker. It is only the separation agreement and he did threaten me and my L if I don't share the transportation, he will rethink about the tie breaker deal. I will do my best to get the full legal custody in the long run. When BPD and I were still talking, after several tries, I told him that kids were recommended by the class teachers to see the school counselor which it was brought up during kids' conference by me. He nodded and I took it as Yes and have H7 and J6 see the school counselor.

I will ask my L the question. I think it would be smart and at the same time, I am giving them updates what is up. After the first initial meeting with the L, I only communicated through email about the serving procedure and never updates anything really. They said close to the court date to schedule the dates, we will talk so I have been kind of holding back...

[ForeverDad]

Don't "gift away" Tie-breaker status.  While full legal custody is optimal in high conflict cases, Tie-Breaker or Decision-Making are close seconds and easier to get or keep.  While sole custody feels so much better, here's how the concepts work in general terms:

Sole Custody

   Make decisions and inform other parent as appropriate

Decision Making

   Make decisions and inform other parent as appropriate

Tie Breaker

   Ask other parent, if tied then proceed and inform other parent as appropriate

As you can tell, there's not all that much difference.  The ex can always take things to mediation or court, just as you can.  Of course, sole custody is safer and more likely to withstand sabotage, but many courts are reluctant to award sole custody to one parent, they prefer not to declare a Winner and a Loser.  So DM or TB are more palatable all around, court likes the nonjudgmental middle ground, ex saves face and you get to proceed with minimally sabotaged parenting.

[Godslove]

I emailed and got response from my L. today. Like you all advised, she says to send more emails. After that, I am supposed to go to mediation. She says she can intervene if necessary. 

I asked her about July 4th too. This is his weekend but kids are to attend fireworks with me this year. Since the agreement is unclear about the details for July 4th, that means BPD and I need to agree upon what is going to happen. See if I can get a response from him about this, and if not, she’ll send him a letter. BPD texted me today wanting to pick up kids around lunch time (I assume 12? which is about five hours earlier) on Friday. I didn't answer him yet. Still thinking HOW I am going to answer. I will give him what he wants, it will actually help me to focus on work. I don't know if I should ask him to bring the kids back on Saturday and I drop them off after firework? Or meet somewhere in the middle before and after fireworks? This is ridiculous. I am talking about someone who wouldn't even bring kids back to me on Mother's day and refused all the options I gave.

Anyway L wants me let her know if she need send him something after reaching out to him about counseling and July 4th.

I am actually not sure if I make this work with having L's Intervene every step. Or after emails (he will not agree on anything I suggest), just let him mess up.

L also wrote that the case has been filed and he has been served, she can send him discovery. We can request documents from him and send him questions that he has to answer under oath. The requests would include information relating to income (current pay statements, tax returns, etc.), and have questions relating to his visitation. This is collaborative Law Group but I was told they will go to court if things do not come to an agreement.

[livednlearned]

This is collaborative Law Group but I was told they will go to court if things do not come to an agreement.

That would be good. In my state, lawyers and clients sign an agreement that the case won't get litigated. It could be that your group does it different, or maybe the state handles it that way.

There has been a lot of criticism about collaborative law from what I understand, for the very reason that people would go through these processes and then not be able to litigate with lawyers who knew their case. Maybe things are swinging so that they keep the process, but don't require a binding agreement either way.

[Godslove]

Maybe... I met two lawyers in the group. They both are working on my case, the woman is the major communicator and handler but the boss in the firm is being reported and come up with strategies together. He said when it goes to the court, he is the one who will go. He emphasized the benefits of not going to litigation, but he says if BPD brings a stinky L, he is ready for it too.

[scraps66]

I would works towards having mediation defined as not involving court or lawyers.  Define this as some means of collaboration between parties, if there is no agreement, then you are the tiebreaker.  The reason, like most things with a BP, is it realistic to expect to go to mediation over every decision?  No, and this is likely when dealing with a BP.  The mediation step still gives the BP an opportunity to waffle and obstruct.  There can be no discretion required when dealing with a BP.

I had heard that courts love counseling, but the first time I Petitioned the court to get ex to consent to counseling, the Master did not allow it and required us both to get a psychological evaluation.  Five years alter I still have issues with counseling and I still do not have that psychological evaluation for ex.  My courthouse is even different than the norm. 

[Godslove]

Oh boy... that sounds really tough to deal with. I just got email from BPD about my email

1. giving him what he wants about the pick up time. 2. Forth of July exchange. 3. Counseling for J again.

He ignored forth of July exchange.

For the counseling, this is what he wrote: I'm fine with you taking J to a counselor if that is what you want to do. We have medical insurance that will pay for the visits.

I guess this is good enough for me to take J to a counselor. My contract does not indicate to get a consent which counselor from him and it does not seem that he cares furthermore.

[scraps66]

Careful, if the 4th of July exchange needs to be nailed down, make sure it is.  If there is a grey area be ready for that to be exploited especially if it's difficult on you.  My ex will intentionally go silent on things like trades and the particulars and then the day of, "oh, it's my day after all, I'm going to keep them." 

Interesting, my ex makes a big deal about the expense of counseling and cares little about what is best/better for S10. 

[Godslove]

 then the day of, "oh, it's my day after all, I'm going to keep them." 

your ex sounds like my ex

I have the feeling he already planed a trip or something this weekend since he wants the kids early on Friday. He said lunch time, I asked to specify the time and he said the sooner the better. Sounds like he took a day off. He is purposely avoiding committing to anything about Forth of July. He then can say I didn't agree which he has been. I am going to email him tom. one more time about the exchange time and place on Forth of July but this time, I decided not involving the L intervene like mother's day and not getting them back anyway. After I will just record everything and ask for next year forth of July to make up.

For the counseling, I am a bit surprised as well. Well... he has been ignoring kids after school so he does not have to reimburse 60% which is on the contract. This if there is any co-pay for medical, it is on me.