Greed versus want or need

[Zon]

I have been trying to work on my weaknesses.  I think it will help my decision to stay or go.  If staying, it will help where the relationship goes.  If going, it will help me as well as future relationships.

During the last session with my T, I asked him about me.  I asked if I was being greedy on what I wanted from and in the relationship.  He said he was surprised by me asking that.  I specifically asked if my need/wants for any of these were being greedy:

• More intimacy (outside of sex).  Something that is just a little above platonic hugs and kisses is not enough for me.



• More sex in the relationship.  Once a month would be wonderful compared to most of our marriage.  NOTE:  I have asked for this years ago.  It never works to just ask her.



• If having a heated argument, I want it to be something that can bring us closer or at least agree that we disagree.  I tire of large arguments over seemingly small things, especially when I have no opinion on the matter.

My T said that we all need different things and different levels of those things.  As to me, he said that I am not being greedy.  From what he has heard from me over all my sessions with him, what I want is not abnormal nor extreme.  For some perspective, he mentioned that there was one case of a guy who put up with unbelievable stuff from his wife, however, it did not bother that guy in the least.  My T did say that he usually hears the worst stories, so examples from him are not the best to compare against. 

Regarding myself, he said it was like I have this small sphere of what I can want where it is allowed by her without problems.  I am only allowed spoonfuls.  To go outside of it would provoke her.  I think I am not used to reaching outside that sphere.  Not fear but not sure what to reach for.

Guilt is a heavy weight on me.  I still have it, but I felt better after hearing him tell me that I was not being greedy.

However, there is much more work for me to do on myself.  I want to hear more of what "normally" happens in an average yet good relationship.  I have lost touch, if I ever had it, of what is healthy to expect in a relationship.  I do not want to be greedy, yet I do not want to shortchange myself.

Can anyone give me insights in what to want in a relationship where I am fair to myself and her?  I think this will help to detox myself from my uBPD/NPDw as well as improve myself.

[fromheeltoheal]

Hey Zon-

Regarding myself, he said it was like I have this small sphere of what I can want where it is allowed by her without problems.  I am only allowed spoonfuls.  To go outside of it would provoke her.  I think I am not used to reaching outside that sphere.  Not fear but not sure what to reach for.

So in a nutshell, she's in control of which needs and wants of yours get met by her, by using the threat of provocation, and if you have unmet needs you label it greedy, which is bad, so you feel guilty.

I am very familiar with that mindset, and know that there are other options.  You have needs and wants, which you can intentionally decide to believe are valid and reasonable, you can go to her with those needs and she will either meet them or she won't, and then what does that mean?  You could make it mean that you're being greedy, but you could also make it mean she doesn't care about you and your needs, she's not capable of meeting your needs, she's too focused on herself to realize you have unmet needs, she doesn't love you, otherwise your needs would matter to her, you've met many of her needs and where's the reciprocation?  Point is, there are many things you can make it mean other than you being greedy; you're only 'greedy' because she's setting the terms.  Time for you to set them, or set them together with her?

All couples have differing needs and different levels of the same needs.  It's not so much whether or not they're getting met, it's more how each partner is accepting that their partner has needs, unmet or otherwise, and what they're doing to contribute to their partner's well-being, satisfaction and contentment. 

My ex once said to me "the woman a man shares a bed with controls his world".  I knew it was bullsht at the time, but she honestly believed that, and my thought was OK, it's early in the relationship, it may have been that way with other men, but we're going to create some equality.  Ha!  Silly me.  When it became abundantly clear she could tolerate no other way than being in complete control, it was time to leave, partly to make room for some guy who likes being controlled, and that guy was certainly not me.

[Zon]

Hey Zon-

Regarding myself, he said it was like I have this small sphere of what I can want where it is allowed by her without problems.  I am only allowed spoonfuls.  To go outside of it would provoke her.  I think I am not used to reaching outside that sphere.  Not fear but not sure what to reach for.

So in a nutshell, she's in control of which needs and wants of yours get met by her, by using the threat of provocation, and if you have unmet needs you label it greedy, which is bad, so you feel guilty.

I am very familiar with that mindset, and know that there are other options.  You have needs and wants, which you can intentionally decide to believe are valid and reasonable, you can go to her with those needs and she will either meet them or she won't, and then what does that mean?  You could make it mean that you're being greedy, but you could also make it mean she doesn't care about you and your needs, she's not capable of meeting your needs, she's too focused on herself to realize you have unmet needs, she doesn't love you, otherwise your needs would matter to her, you've met many of her needs and where's the reciprocation?  Point is, there are many things you can make it mean other than you being greedy; you're only 'greedy' because she's setting the terms.  Time for you to set them, or set them together with her?

I recall trying to set some things I need with her years ago.  The did not materialize.  For the longest time, I thought it was my fault, so I focused there.  These days, I am not sure how to set them with her or even if I have the desire to set them with her.

With what she has said about forcing herself, I have no desire to request sex.  I have gotten a bad taste in my mouth for intimacy from her since I cannot tell if it is genuine.  Her random attitudes make me question who she really is underneath.

On the topic of greed, I can see better that it was due to her post-marriage terms.  The issue with being greedy still is a tough one, but I feel I am over the hill and see that I am not greedy on many things.  I was certainly under Guilt regarding it.

All couples have differing needs and different levels of the same needs.  It's not so much whether or not they're getting met, it's more how each partner is accepting that their partner has needs, unmet or otherwise, and what they're doing to contribute to their partner's well-being, satisfaction and contentment. 

My wife said recently that she had no idea that I was hurting all this time.  I believe that she is either lying or subconsciously blocked out my hurts since both my T and our MC easily pick up on it.  I do not make it obvious because I feel like I am thinking only of myself (greedy again  ).  However, it shows in my face and eyes.

My ex once said to me "the woman a man shares a bed with controls his world".  I knew it was bullsht at the time, but she honestly believed that, and my thought was OK, it's early in the relationship, it may have been that way with other men, but we're going to create some equality.  Ha!  Silly me.  When it became abundantly clear she could tolerate no other way than being in complete control, it was time to leave, partly to make room for some guy who likes being controlled, and that guy was certainly not me.

How did that end for you?  You told her you were leaving, or did she leave because you were not controllable?

I may be a bit of a coward because I cannot find a way to tell her goodbye or even requirements else I leave.  However, requirements get back to my feeling that I am requiring stuff from her that I need to be given by her of her own accord.  Give me sex as well as deeper intimacy are things I expect to come from within her.  If she just does those to keep the relationship intact, then I do not want it.

[fromheeltoheal]

Hey Zon-

My wife said recently that she had no idea that I was hurting all this time.  I believe that she is either lying or subconsciously blocked out my hurts since both my T and our MC easily pick up on it.  I do not make it obvious because I feel like I am thinking only of myself (greedy again  ).  However, it shows in my face and eyes.

For my ex it was a third choice; she honestly didn't have more than a limited ability to perceive and understand how someone else was feeling.  It wasn't that she didn't care, although that was the result, it was she literally didn't know, and if I explained it she didn't understand, felt shame, and attacked.  There's no way to get our needs met in a situation like that and it's not her fault, but that doesn't make it tolerable.

My ex once said to me "the woman a man shares a bed with controls his world".  I knew it was bullsht at the time, but she honestly believed that, and my thought was OK, it's early in the relationship, it may have been that way with other men, but we're going to create some equality.  Ha!  Silly me.  When it became abundantly clear she could tolerate no other way than being in complete control, it was time to leave, partly to make room for some guy who likes being controlled, and that guy was certainly not me.

How did that end for you?  You told her you were leaving, or did she leave because you were not controllable?[/quote]
As soon as it became clear that she didn't have the ability to see and get how I was feeling and needed to be in control for her own reasons, and that wasn't going to change, I had to accept I was wrong and left her.  There was no way I was going to get my needs met in that situation, even though I initially thought I could "love her into seeing things my way" or some such fantasy I was entertaining at the beginning.

I may be a bit of a coward because I cannot find a way to tell her goodbye or even requirements else I leave.  However, requirements get back to my feeling that I am requiring stuff from her that I need to be given by her of her own accord.  Give me sex as well as deeper intimacy are things I expect to come from within her.  If she just does those to keep the relationship intact, then I do not want it.

I don't think it's ever good to threaten the relationship, any relationship but especially for a borderline, because that would trigger the fear of abandonment, which will make things worse, best to either stay and resolve things or leave.  And I do get what you mean about not wanting to ask for things that she should be perceiving you need and want and give them willingly.  Simple can be powerful: decide what you want and need in a relationship, then decide if she could and would ever meet those needs and wants on a sustainable basis, then act accordingly.  The more definite the decision the more upending it is for everyone, but ultimately it's a better approach because it stops the bleeding and starts the healing right away instead of dragging it out, which ends up hurting everyone more.  One man's opinion... .

Take care of you!

[Zon]

I don't think it's ever good to threaten the relationship, any relationship but especially for a borderline, because that would trigger the fear of abandonment, which will make things worse, best to either stay and resolve things or leave.  And I do get what you mean about not wanting to ask for things that she should be perceiving you need and want and give them willingly.  Simple can be powerful: decide what you want and need in a relationship, then decide if she could and would ever meet those needs and wants on a sustainable basis, then act accordingly.  The more definite the decision the more upending it is for everyone, but ultimately it's a better approach because it stops the bleeding and starts the healing right away instead of dragging it out, which ends up hurting everyone more.  One man's opinion... .

Take care of you!

fromheeltoheal, thank you for all your comments.  These last comments/thoughts are especially mesmerizing as I keep having them echo in my head (pretty vacant in there ):

• Stay and resolve things or leave.



• A definitive decision is more upending yet better overall.



• Stop the bleeding and start the healing.

I just need to work on biting the bullet for the first one.  I may be or may have been looking to see for certain if my wife is able to understand my needs and provide without me saying them directly, but I think it is for other reasons that I am working upon.

[fromheeltoheal]

I just need to work on biting the bullet for the first one.  I may be or may have been looking to see for certain if my wife is able to understand my needs and provide without me saying them directly, but I think it is for other reasons that I am working upon.

There you go.  You probably know already if she's willing and able to meet your needs or not, or even consider them.  What are the other reasons?

[Zon]

I just need to work on biting the bullet for the first one.  I may be or may have been looking to see for certain if my wife is able to understand my needs and provide without me saying them directly, but I think it is for other reasons that I am working upon.

There you go.  You probably know already if she's willing and able to meet your needs or not, or even consider them.  What are the other reasons?

Some reasons I have:

• Guilt that I will incur from a divorce.  I really hate the idea of getting a divorce especially with children involved.  Stems from my parents getting a divorce although I was treated well by both sides.  I had decided not to get divorced even before I met my wife, so it is a long standing desire in me.  I have considered it many times over the years because of how I felt neglected, but those were heated moments only in my head.



• Fear that I am thinking only of myself which is leading me to see that the grass is greener on the other side.



• I rarely give up.  I keep thinking I could find another avenue to fix our relationship.  Therapy for her is probably the only thing left to try.



• Confusion and doubt.  Currently, she has been acting normal for a few weeks.  Her longest stretch in a couple of years.  I keep wondering if it was just episodes or my interpretation since she used to be normal for the first six to seven years of our relationship then changed slowly around the time of marriage.  Fortunately, I have a journal I keep to prevent me relapsing on this for the umpteenth time.



• Programmed guilt.  She had me well trained.  I have been freeing myself of that, but it has been a slow process.  If only I do this,... .  If only we take a trip like she wants, ... .  If only I stop fighting back, ... .  I used to feel guilty about the idea of doing things with friends.  She got very angry one day because I went to lunch with people from work to a restaurant she had mentioned before wanting to try with me.  Just to note, her anger is a cold anger with little swearing.  It used to make me feel very guilty.  It would eat at me too.



• I cannot make decisions with the certainty that I would like (95% or more certain).  With a long, serious relationship, it is harder to accept reality without being really certain.  I will ask about this in therapy too.

There may be other reasons not coming to my mind, but those are a few of the juicier ones.  I have wondered MANY times if I appease her in some ways if it would help her to fulfill my needs.  The past attempts never really worked.  I cannot tell if she fears them or has little interest in them.  I am 85% certain that she cannot or has serious issues fulfilling them.  It is hard, for me, to say that "I know" like it is fact for many things.  It is my nature.  I will put it in the list. 

[Surg_Bear]

Zon-

I can relate to your post- my wife has recently declared herself to be "asexual" and has no desire to have sex with me. 

I gave her an ultimatum about 3 months ago, and it was clear:

Sex once a year is not normal.  I need more sex than this.  If we don't start having sex- regular sex, I want out of our marriage.

This is a need of mine.  When she and I first met, 25 yrs ago, I needed sex a couple times a day.  Luckily, those days are over, but I still feel like I would be at the top of my game if I had sex daily.  At 48, this may be a fantasy that would not last longer than a couple weeks, or may actually be true- I have no idea how much sex I need because I'm having sex once or twice a year.

The point is that I believe sex is a need.  One of my core values about marriage is that both partners commit to attempting to please their partner sexually.  I believe that there can be no rules about infidelity, if there is no place to get one's sexual needs met.  I feel infidelity violates the terms / agreements of monogamous marriage.  I believe a sexless marriage - unless explicitly agreed upon by both partners - equally violates the terms / agreements of monogamous marriage. 

Sexless marriage = 10 or less times a year. 

You are barely asking above the minimum by settling for once a month.

I am leaving my wife because sex is off the table.

She counters with a supposed guilt-inducing, "you're leaving me, and it is just about sex?" 

"just sex."

Yes, actually- her attitude toward my sex is so invalidating that she contends that because she doesn't need it, I shouldn't either.  That's not how things work.  I understand that my ultimatum was just as invalidating to her. Sex or I'm outta here is saying I need sex, and it doesn't matter if you don't.

I'm done with ultimatums about sex, now.

I accept that my wife doesn't want or need it.

I accept that I feel like I am dying without it.

Game over.  It IS that simple.  Sex is enough reason to call it off.

I am leaving a 25 year marriage because of sex. 

This is not about greed, man.  It is about need.  This need of mine requires a willing partner to do the dance.  My partner refuses to dance with me. 

I do not have to stop dancing because she says I must.

You are not being greedy by being selfish.  You have every right to expect your needs to be met.  How much of yourself are you going to give to her?  How much power does she exert over your life as it is now?  Be selfish and take your needs back.  They are yours. 

I hope my struggle through this has helped you.  It has been a true struggle.  I have battled the guilt about greed vs need for over 5 years.  I have spiraled into some serious self loathing and body issues because I bought my wife's reasons for not having sex.  I'm too fat, too old, etc.  You know what?  Chubby chasers are all over this planet, and I'm going to find me one.  But I almost self destructed from the hopelessness of seeing it her way.  No f-ing way.  I am worth more than that. I deserve better.

And so do you.

So do you.

Find YOUR path.

Love,

Surg_Bear

[Zon]

Zon-

I can relate to your post- my wife has recently declared herself to be "asexual" and has no desire to have sex with me. 

I gave her an ultimatum about 3 months ago, and it was clear:

Sex once a year is not normal.  I need more sex than this.  If we don't start having sex- regular sex, I want out of our marriage.

This is a need of mine.  When she and I first met, 25 yrs ago, I needed sex a couple times a day.  Luckily, those days are over, but I still feel like I would be at the top of my game if I had sex daily.  At 48, this may be a fantasy that would not last longer than a couple weeks, or may actually be true- I have no idea how much sex I need because I'm having sex once or twice a year.

The point is that I believe sex is a need.  One of my core values about marriage is that both partners commit to attempting to please their partner sexually.  I believe that there can be no rules about infidelity, if there is no place to get one's sexual needs met.  I feel infidelity violates the terms / agreements of monogamous marriage.  I believe a sexless marriage - unless explicitly agreed upon by both partners - equally violates the terms / agreements of monogamous marriage. 

Sexless marriage = 10 or less times a year. 

You are barely asking above the minimum by settling for once a month.

The longest time without sex for us was 2.5 years.  This was around a baby, so I can understand 1.5 years of that.  I would understand more if she was having sex with me more often before that.

I hear you.  Sex is a need for me too.  Not twice a day, but a few per week even now.

I am leaving my wife because sex is off the table.

Instead of on the table where it belongs.    I could not resist that.

She counters with a supposed guilt-inducing, "you're leaving me, and it is just about sex?" 

"just sex."

Yes, actually- her attitude toward my sex is so invalidating that she contends that because she doesn't need it, I shouldn't either.  That's not how things work.  I understand that my ultimatum was just as invalidating to her. Sex or I'm outta here is saying I need sex, and it doesn't matter if you don't.

The dismissive methods my wife uses are the damaging parts as opposed to being told no.  Invalidation with an edge.

I'm done with ultimatums about sex, now.

I accept that my wife doesn't want or need it.

I accept that I feel like I am dying without it.

Game over.  It IS that simple.  Sex is enough reason to call it off.

I am leaving a 25 year marriage because of sex. 

This is not about greed, man.  It is about need.  This need of mine requires a willing partner to do the dance.  My partner refuses to dance with me. 

I do not have to stop dancing because she says I must.

You are not being greedy by being selfish.  You have every right to expect your needs to be met.  How much of yourself are you going to give to her?  How much power does she exert over your life as it is now?  Be selfish and take your needs back.  They are yours. 

I hope my struggle through this has helped you.  It has been a true struggle.  I have battled the guilt about greed vs need for over 5 years.  I have spiraled into some serious self loathing and body issues because I bought my wife's reasons for not having sex.  I'm too fat, too old, etc.  You know what?  Chubby chasers are all over this planet, and I'm going to find me one.  But I almost self destructed from the hopelessness of seeing it her way.  No f-ing way.  I am worth more than that. I deserve better.

And so do you.

So do you.

Find YOUR path.

Love,

Surg_Bear

Thank you, Surg_Bear.  The words from you and others certainly help me get past that guilt of being "greedy".  I gave her many years.  During one of our sessions, she complained about me not sleeping in the same bed as her.  She said that she had a few more good years left.  I presume she meant sexually.  I take it to mean that she can deny me a lot for a few more years before she really does not want it ever.  I need sex, but I do not want it from her for a few reasons (her forcing herself to have sex with me, her near constant dismissal, her harsh way of saying no).  That does not even get into the fact that I do not completely trust my heart with her.

BTW, my wife and I are both attractive.  I am in good shape and exercise fairly regularly.  She still rejected me.  My point is that if you get in top shape, she may still reject you but for new reasons.