Validation. What is it really?

[Family Court Strategies: When Your Partner Has BPD OR NPD Traits.]

My first thought at reading this was, "Man, those are some pretty high expectations." I can't think of anybody that I know that can wake up feeling okay and stay that way without some kind of validation (internal or external).

What is wrong with accepting that sometimes you need some kind of validation? Do you see needing validation as some kind of weakness?

In all of the threads that I have read here, I don't recall anybody ever saying that nobody needs validation. I seem to recall people saying things like, "If you can't get validation from a spouse, a parent, or some other pwBPD in your life, find alternate sources of validation whether that be friends, the forum, or from within." I am trying to understand how a person could get to a point where he/she would not need some kind of validation. I don't see that as realistic.

Lol!  There is no judgement here!  I'm exploring, and wondering.  I say I "need" validation.  I seriously though don't.  I will not die without it.  It is my desire.  I like the idea of being free of desires and exploring that.  I wonder how to lessen my desire for validation. I wonder what that would feel like and look like.  When I imagine for myself a place of not needing validation in anyway... .it does feel like contentment.

[Sunfl0wer]

My first thought at reading this was, "Man, those are some pretty high expectations." I can't think of anybody that I know that can wake up feeling okay and stay that way without some kind of validation (internal or external).

What is wrong with accepting that sometimes you need some kind of validation? Do you see needing validation as some kind of weakness?

In all of the threads that I have read here, I don't recall anybody ever saying that nobody needs validation. I seem to recall people saying things like, "If you can't get validation from a spouse, a parent, or some other pwBPD in your life, find alternate sources of validation whether that be friends, the forum, or from within." I am trying to understand how a person could get to a point where he/she would not need some kind of validation. I don't see that as realistic.

Lol!  There is no judgement here!  I'm exploring, and wondering.  I say I "need" validation.  I seriously though don't.  I will not die without it.  It is my desire.  I like the idea of being free of desires and exploring that.  I wonder how to lessen my desire for validation. I wonder what that would feel like and look like.  When I imagine for myself a place of not needing validation in anyway... .it does feel like contentment.

[Skip]

Outgoing: To me, validation and empathy are gifts we give others - especially if we stay authentic (avoid false validation and empathy).

Philosopher Bertrand Russel, in Pursuit of Happiness, talks about happiness being, partially, a function of a validating environment. Bill collectors are generally not as happy as people who sing in a choir.

[fromheeltoheal]

Great thread peeps, I'm getting here late but thought I'd interject... .

Validation means to make valid, and some of the synonyms for valid include authentic, good, credible, legitimate, solid, true, and well-founded, while some of the synonyms for validation include acceptance, affirmation, endorsement, recognition and approval.

So bottom line for me: validation means we matter, and we either feel that way because we say so, or because someone else says so, or both, depending.  And the alternative is to mean we don't matter, painful that, so there's the drive for validation.

Sometimes we are back on our heels and struggling, like when we are in or leave a relationship where we were at first idealized and then devalued, with our guard down, and at times like that we need external validation, need to be validated by someone else, because we don't currently have the ability to self-validate.  We also need empathy and compassion coming out of those relationships, but this thread is about validation.

And at other times we're on it, makin' it happen, top of the world, enjoying our lives, and at times like that it's easy to self-validate, and although we may get external validation at times like that and it's nice, we don't need it.

So for us social animals, surrounding ourselves with people who care about us is a resource we can use when we need external validation, as we are to them, and hopefully we don't all need it at the same time, luckily that doesn't usually happen.  People who are willing to lift us up when we're down adds security to our lives, just knowing they're there adds security.  Paul Simon sang I am a rock, I am an island because he was hurt and said screw it, I don't need people, a viewpoint I am very familiar with but not true, no man is an island and life is easier with support, even though human interaction gets messy sometimes.

[Sunfl0wer]

Thank you guys for helping!

I don't want to be misunderstood.

I'm not saying validation is bad.  This isn't about good or bad.

I appreciate what so many of you expressed... .that validation is a natural part of social interactions and serves a vital role in our connectedness. 

I was trying to explore more if there is really something I can do ... .to not want it.  Sometimes my desire for validation feels like a burden to me.  I think having a lessened desire for validation could be more peaceful for me.

Anyway... .

(I wasn't originally thinking of a particular example)

However, an example:

Part of me wants to shout at my next T session:

Why did you not validate me and tell me I am not the crazy one?

Why didn't you frame what was happening so it made sense?

Why are you acting like some of this crap is normal? That feels invalidating!

I realize he will likely redirect things, not simply give me the validation I want.  He will instead challenge me to look inward.

I'm thinking of going in asking:

Hey, how can I let go of this need for validation that has me stuck? That I feel like transferring on you... !

I feel that I "shouldn't" "need" someone elses affirmation to feel ok.  However, this feeling feels very real to me.

Oh well... .

I'll dump it on him maybe.

[vortex of confusion]

I was trying to explore more if there is really something I can do ... .to not want it.  Sometimes my desire for validation feels like a burden to me.  I think having a lessened desire for validation could be more peaceful for me.

I think what has lessened my desire for external validation is twofold.

On one hand, I think I have gotten a little better at validating myself. I can practice the validation tools that can be found in the lessons on myself to a certain degree.

On the other hand, it is working to create a validating environment for myself. It has been looking at who I interact with on a regular basis. Work, family, and friends have all been evaluated and questioned to see whether or not I am surrounding myself with people that tend to be positive and validating. It is odd for me because the person doesn't necessarily need to validate me. It is more about being positive and challenging me in the right ways.

Being better at validating myself came AFTER trying to create a more positive and validating environment for myself. Finding this site was instrumental in helping me along the way.

However, an example:

Part of me wants to shout at my next T session:

Why did you not validate me and tell me I am not the crazy one?

Why didn't you frame what was happening so it made sense?

Why are you acting like some of this crap is normal? That feels invalidating!

I realize he will likely redirect things, not simply give me the validation I want.  He will instead challenge me to look inward.

Why are you continuing to see this T? I think those are all very valid questions. If you think he will challenge you to look inward, would it be possible to look inward before the next session?

I feel that I "shouldn't" "need" someone elses affirmation to feel ok.  However, this feeling feels very real to me.

This is how I feel about phrases that include the word should:    

I say that because I have spent a lot of years beating myself up over what I should be doing or what I should be feeling. This feeling feels real to you because it IS real.

Think about how a kid checks in with his/her parent to see if everything is okay. After a while, the kid learns how to do it on his/her own without so much checking in. It is process. I look at the work that I have been doing as sort of reparenting myself. I am trying to give myself the things that I should have gotten when I was a kid. One of those things is the right kind of validation. The other is that I give myself permission to feel things without trying to talk myself out of it by telling myself that I should or shouldn't be feeling a particular way.

[Turkish]

How is validation "affirmation" to you?

This is an interesting discussion, because growing up with a mother who split me constantly, by the time I was a teen, I came to reject both criticism and praise because on an emotional level, I didn't trust what was being said. Ot morphed into me not accepting compliments (didn't need them). Is that familiar, or is it something different?

[Sunfl0wer]

Why are you continuing to see this T? I think those are all very valid questions. If you think he will challenge you to look inward, would it be possible to look inward before the next session?

This is what I am doing here... .all these questions.

Thank you VOC, you give some great suggestions for self validation!  Awesome!

[Sunfl0wer]

How is validation "affirmation" to you?

This is an interesting discussion, because growing up with a mother who split me constantly, by the time I was a teen, I came to reject both criticism and praise because on an emotional level, I didn't trust what was being said. Ot morphed into me not accepting compliments (didn't need them). Is that familiar, or is it something different?

Well... .it appears that validation is just a way/a tool for us to be told we are ok or to tell ourselves that we are ok.  Isn't that the same thing as an affirmation?  That the validation is a tool to get affirmation?

I'm with you Turkish, there is a moment I will never forget... .  A well meaning person came up to a group of me and some friends.  He decided to let us know we were doing excellent work.  I reacted.  I gave a mini rage explaining we were self sufficient and not dependent on his affirmations and observations... .or something like that.  My reaction to others offering compliments was often to be suspicious of manipulation that would follow.  I looked around me.  The shock on everyone's faces was just... .memorable.  It was as though I decapitated the poor fella.  I quickly realized what I had done... .and kinda did one of these faces:   oops, my bad, that dude is good.  I get it folks, lets now sew his poor head back on and carry on here.  Good guy!  We still touch bases, all is forgiven, he gets me.

(A compliment can be different than validation I think.  Validation is not always a compliment, and a compliment is not always validating)

[Turkish]

I sometimes reacted in a similar manner, invalidating my complimentor!

Certainly compliments aren't always validating, like back-handed ones. If I react negatively to a valid comment, however, that's about me, and in the past, I realized I've done this. Like your story.

When my kids are throwing tantrums (especially my son), I discipline them strongly, depending upon the incident. My point isn't to make them feel good, but they need to feel heard. Not the invalidating comments their uBPD mom sometimes makes, "you can't cry about that!" This is when they trigger her. I'm still learning to acknowledge the kids' feelings, but not approving or enabling un acceptable behaviors. Validating is affirming that I hear them, even if I disagree with them. To them, it probably doesn't feel positive.

If I hijack your thread to talk about my week (it sucked), I'm invalidating you. Would you have a right to be angry? Certainly! Do you need me to not hijack your thread to survive? No. You don't need my validation (I'm just some anonymous voice on the internet), but me invalidating you like that wouldn't be acceptable, and that's acceptable.

[Sunfl0wer]

So I constructed a story that really helps me organize my thinking on this... .it makes sense to me now this way:

Imagine the "true/real self" as a boat.  A boat in the water with nothing to see around it on all sides except water.  Our "other self" is navigating on the boat.  ( I am making this up... .so feel free to tell me labels for these thoughts already are defined)

So validation we get from other people is like seeing something on the horizon.

When we feel lost, we  (our other self) appreciates seeing a buoy, to help remind us where we are and to orient ourself, and to continue on.

When we are feeling very lost, we may prefer to see a tree, a clearer indicator of our position in the water.  Yet when we are feeling even more lost, we may prefer to see the shore on the horizon.

External validation, can be the buoy, tree or horizon.  More validation, helps us feel secure, know "we are ok" and helps orient ourself to our surroundings and can be symbolically thought of as a bouy, tree, or shore.

If we are a more experienced boater person, then we can navigate ok with internal cues such as a compass and timing direction, radar, etc. This is self validation.  (Radar is more both self and external though)

The "Feeling lost", and the "seeking affirmation/validation" of our position did not actually change our self.  If you remember, our self was symbolically represented as a boat.  The boat was, in reality, fine the whole time.  It was completely intact in this story, not a hole, not a broken piece of it came into the story I described. Not a thing was ever "wrong" with it.

In this way, the boat was always, just a boat.  The boat did not "need" the tree to just be a boat.  The boat was doing a fine job just "being" and functioning as a boat the entire time.  It did not change form when we saw the tree.  

I think there are two separate selfs I am speaking of, but was trying to contain them as one.  Hence... .lots of confusion.

Thanks for helping me struggle my way through this!

[Blimblam]

ill put in my 2 cents.

There is no "real self," in the sense we describe here the part of ourselves we seek to know is perceived as a lack.  The ego or "I," is a false self.  So, validation become about whether we garner attention and recognition to identify our selves with or without a lack. The I without the lack known in Lacanian terms as the Ideal- I or ideal ego is a narcissistic phantasy that is impossible to achieve, so if someone is presenting themselves as that to be identified as the I or the I they are striving for they are running away from or denying the lack that is inherent to the human condition. It begs the question "who is left holding the bag?" or who is it they use as a container to contain their own  lack they are in denial of?  Validation can come in the form of recognizing others as who we want them to be to for us to validate the idea of ourselves we want to identify with. So far I have only mentioned forms of narcissitic empathy. Their is also validation in the form of recognizing the inherent value of others merely because they exist, to quote the smiths that "[they] are human and need to belong just like everyone else does."  I would like to take it a step further though, "[They] are [conscious and belong] just like [everything] else does."

[rotiroti]

I would say validation is more like a fish that jumps into our validation boat (i like it!). It stays with us and ensures on staying on course while it lasts. The fish could be big or small. How we decide to eat it can be upto us, or we can even throw it back in if we're not hungry (self-validated and not needing of outside sources). Or like you say a competent sailor

I imagine the buoys for me for me are personal goals and dreams I want to achieve.

Or imagine a poorly made boat with lots of holes and the boat is filling up. Yes the boat is and always has been a boat but you're sinking fast into the ocean (depression or whatever). You just want to continue on with your destination but are wallowing. Maybe you discover how to properly patch the holes and are satisfied at how you're back on course. As you continue on, you're proud of your journey... .etc


this is pretty meta for a sunday morning, thanks for getting me to think about it!

[Sunfl0wer]

ill put in my 2 cents.

There is no "real self," in the sense we describe here the part of ourselves we seek to know is perceived as a lack.  The ego or "I," is a false self.  So, validation become about whether we garner attention and recognition to identify our selves with or without a lack. The I without the lack known in Lacanian terms as the Ideal- I or ideal ego is a narcissistic phantasy that is impossible to achieve, so if someone is presenting themselves as that to be identified as the I or the I they are striving for they are running away from or denying the lack that is inherent to the human condition. It begs the question "who is left holding the bag?" or who is it they use as a container to contain their own  lack they are in denial of?  Validation can come in the form of recognizing others as who we want them to be to for us to validate the idea of ourselves we want to identify with. So far I have only mentioned forms of narcissitic empathy. Their is also validation in the form of recognizing the inherent value of others merely because they exist, to quote the smiths that "[they] are human and need to belong just like everyone else does."  I would like to take it a step further though, "[They] are [conscious and belong] just like [everything] else does."

Thank you Blimblam,

You’re the one that got me stuck on Lacan a while back!  I attended a Buddhism class today and the instructor was teaching about the Buddhist Nature, and the “self” (meaning false created self)  I actually thought it was all straight from Lacan’s, I raised my hand and asked as much, !  No one in the whole class had a clue…I swore the guy was channeling Lacan!  He was talking about symbolic/illusions, the “I,” etc and that babies have the Buddha Nature originally until affected by interacting.

Reading this paragraph by you, is the first time what you say made sense to me on the first go without rereading it ten times.  Thank you!

I have to say though…

I wish I could ask someone... .

He talked about three stages…

1) How in ignorance, we believe everything to be real that is not real

2) However, when we wake up some, we begin to see that the mountain and water is an illusion and not actually really a mountain and really water.  They are constructs, symbols.  

3) However, when we are awake and experiencing Real (minus the false self,) we can again see the mountain as a mountain again, and things can maintain being viewed as real, while them not actually being real... .because now we understand that they are illusion.  This sounds like that last sentence of yours about everything belonging.



So here is where I’m confused... .  

With my cPTSD…I spent my childhood questioning the reality of that mountain and spent so much time never trusting that it was ever real to begin with.  I feel like I was born into a crazy environment with so much chaos and changing realities, that I never actually believed in that mountain.  I actually wondered if there was a room behind a closed door, if I would wake up from a nightmare I’m in, if I was actually a Barbie doll in someone else’s game…etc.  I thought to myself: "Surely life couldn't be so cruel and punishing to a child? How can any of this actually be real?"

So what... . I skipped the first stage?  So if the imaginary world was never considered “real” to me to begin with   …WTH?  

Can you please help with this?

[Sunfl0wer]

Neveragainthanks,

Thanks for the additional perspective!  I'm quite enjoying this thread and all the different ways of looking at it.

It feels like fun... .  Like the scene in the Matrix where you get a 360 view of an event from every angle that exists.  _{(Well... .almost.  There wasn't an aerial, or bottom up view)}

[Sunfl0wer]

So for silly fun, don’t take this seriously:  So how does one come to terms with validation if they think it is perpetuating a narcissistic phantasy?  They validate the false self, but also share the truth of the Real?  Is there some conflict of interest here?

Lol!

[Blimblam]

the narcissitic phantasy I refer to is the "Ideal-ego" the Ideal- I.  So when someone starts talking about becoming the best version of themselves bla bla and people validate that idea they validate a narcissistic phantasy that the person can never achieve. So when that person compares themselves to that Ideal-I they want to become they feel a lack in comparison to as if they are not enough.  What I usually observe is the people on the path to becoming the best version of themselves "ideal-I" will not want to contain that lack because they would feel anxiety and shame and such so the project it onto some third party, and label them something like the "negative people," and start talking about getting the negative people out of your life blah blah, or crazy plans to discipline the negative people in some insane totalitarian discourse which is the hugest  of all in my opinion.

It's not that someone pursuing the ideal-I is bad or the "evil narcissist," it is just merely they are looking to attach to something larger than them to protect them from the pain they are avoiding. The Ideal-I or someone they view as a mentor that they project the Ideal-I onto provides them with a sort of barrier from experiencing that part of themselves that is extremely hurt and afraid.

[Sunfl0wer]

the narcissitic phantasy I refer to is the "Ideal-ego" the Ideal- I.  So when someone starts talking about becoming the best version of themselves bla bla and people validate that idea they validate a narcissistic phantasy that the person can never achieve. So when that person compares themselves to that Ideal-I they want to become they feel a lack in comparison to as if they are not enough.  What I usually observe is the people on the path to becoming the best version of themselves "ideal-I" will not want to contain that lack because they would feel anxiety and shame and such so the project it onto some third party, and label them something like the "negative people," and start talking about getting the negative people out of your life blah blah, or crazy plans to discipline the negative people in some insane totalitarian discourse which is the hugest  of all in my opinion.

It's not that someone pursuing the ideal-I is bad or the "evil narcissist," it is just merely they are looking to attach to something larger than them to protect them from the pain they are avoiding. The Ideal-I or someone they view as a mentor that they project the Ideal-I onto provides them with a sort of barrier from experiencing that part of themselves that is extremely hurt and afraid.

Thank you!

I can finally read your words and it does not feel like translating Greek to me any longer!  (for this thread at least)

I get all that easily now.   What next?

Any ideas on my part on this:

He talked about three stages…

1) How in ignorance, we believe everything to be real that is not real

2) However, when we wake up some, we begin to see that the mountain and water is an illusion and not actually really a mountain and really water.  They are constructs, symbols. 

3) However, when we are awake and experiencing Real (minus the false self,) we can again see the mountain as a mountain again, and things can maintain being viewed as real, while them not actually being real... .because now we understand that they are illusion.  This sounds like that last sentence of yours about everything belonging.

So here is where I’m confused... .   huh

With my cPTSD…I spent my childhood questioning the reality of that mountain and spent so much time never trusting that it was ever real to begin with.  I feel like I was born into a crazy environment with so much chaos and changing realities, that I never actually believed in that mountain.  I actually wondered if there was a room behind a closed door, if I would wake up from a nightmare I’m in, if I was actually a Barbie doll in someone else’s game…etc.  I thought to myself: "Surely life couldn't be so cruel and punishing to a child? How can any of this actually be real?"

So what... .  I skipped the first stage?  So if the imaginary world was never considered “real” to me to begin with   …WTH? 

Can you please help with this?

[Blimblam]

I don't know. you will have to ask the person who instructed you in that discourse to explain it further.

From an attachment theory perspective, we have mirroring needs to be met over the course of our development. Now the level of those needs may vary from individual to individual, but if they are not met it will manifest as the various disorders  and such. It will also present itself in a subject with various attachment styles. It is theorized that someone who experiences ptsd in life is reopening specific wounds that are related to a lack of mirroring early on in their development and they are re-experiencing that earlier trauma.

[Sunfl0wer]

I don't know. you will have to ask the person who instructed you in that discourse to explain it further.

From an attachment theory perspective, we have mirroring needs to be met over the course of our development. Now the level of those needs may vary from individual to individual, but if they are not met it will manifest as the various disorders  and such. It will also present itself in a subject with various attachment styles. It is theorized that someone who experiences ptsd in life is reopening specific wounds that are related to a lack of mirroring early on in their development and they are re-experiencing that earlier trauma.

I have wondered about me... .and still do wonder... .at times.

I am certain I do not have a PD.  I am also certain... .based on my lack of attachment... .I should!

I'm baffled about this.

I had RAD as an infant.  That can progress into ASPD.

How the heck did I not get a PD?

My sister has BPD.

I'll google attachment theories and such... .  maybe I formed a health fantasy world to attach to that substituted?

Maybe there was an attachment drive in infancy that I cannot recall?  Not likely... .as I said... .I had RAD... .did not respond to caregivers.  Maybe it occurred before the RAD set in.  I was a quiet, withdrawn, emotionally sensitive child.

So wierd!

(Still on the topic of validation tho... .as now I need some!  )

[vortex of confusion]

(Still on the topic of validation tho... .as now I need some!  )

I came across this article called 5 Ways to Validate Yourself and thought of this thread:

www.tinybuddha.com/blog/5-ways-to-validate-be-part-of-your-support-system/

[Mutt]

The topic of discussion has reached it's post limit and is now locked. Thanks.