Is there anything I can say to her to get closure?

[joeramabeme]

Just had final dinner with uBPDw of 10 years.  I was hoping to get some emotional connection and closure but she is not going there with me. 

I still have one more chance to try and say something but I have no idea what to say.  I keep looking for magic bullet but suspect that there is none.  I feel so powerless... .  I was painted black, is there any way to get the lights on for an hour?

[Mutt]

Hi Joe,

I can understand how difficult that is when you're split black and want to be split white if only for an hour. How did your final supper go? Did you say something?

[joeramabeme]

Hi Joe,

I can understand how difficult that is when you're split black and want to be split white if only for an hour. How did your final supper go? Did you say something?

Thanks for asking Mutt.

I am sure you will not be surprised to hear that, no, the lights did not come on.  The best I have been able to do in the months and weeks that have lead up to this "last supper", is love her unconditionally.  Meaning, accept that she wants to move on, will not connect with me etc. 

In a strange way, I could sense that she saw me doing this and that she was grateful that I did not impose my emotional neediness (not sure neediness is the best word) on her.  It was a simple look she gave me when I left the house this morning as the movers arrived.  It was not what I had hoped for but I had the sense that she knew I loved her and appreciated my making it easier for her.  Just a simple look of acknowledgement.

It is kind of sad and also powerful; tears coming down.

Thanks

[jhkbuzz]

Hi Joe,

I can understand how difficult that is when you're split black and want to be split white if only for an hour. How did your final supper go? Did you say something?

Thanks for asking Mutt.

I am sure you will not be surprised to hear that, no, the lights did not come on.  The best I have been able to do in the months and weeks that have lead up to this "last supper", is love her unconditionally.  Meaning, accept that she wants to move on, will not connect with me etc. 

In a strange way, I could sense that she saw me doing this and that she was grateful that I did not impose my emotional neediness (not sure neediness is the best word) on her.  It was a simple look she gave me when I left the house this morning as the movers arrived.  It was not what I had hoped for but I had the sense that she knew I loved her and appreciated my making it easier for her.  Just a simple look of acknowledgement.

It is kind of sad and also powerful; tears coming down.

Thanks

Lots of hugs and empathy for you joe    this is tough, tough stuff.

[Mutt]

Hi Joe,

I'm sorry to hear that Joe. Moving day is tough.

It's emotional for her too.

I think that you did the right thing with loving her unconditionally and I understand being spilt black hurts like hell.

Hang in there,



----Mutt

[myself]

"Thank you. I love(d) you. Take care. Goodbye."

Might be as close to closure as you can get with her.

Ending things on a positive note for your own peace of mind.

[rotiroti]

Aww man hang in there joe... .you know I think her accepting to have the meal with you is a kind gesture on its own. If you were really painted black it would have been so easy to say 'no'

wouldn't you agree?

[joeramabeme]

you know I think her accepting to have the meal with you is a kind gesture on its own. If you were really painted black it would have been so easy to say 'no'

wouldn't you agree?

Neveragainthanks, Yes, I agree it was quite nice of her to say 'yes'. 

As far as your reference to being painted black; as much as I use the terms I read on this board, I am never quite sure if my wife has painted me black.  I used the term in reference to her complete sanitization of our marriage and her feelings toward me in 6 months.  Is that painted black? 

Or is that she was having these feelings all along and I never picked up on them and it only feels all of sudden to me.  She does not rage, but I can tell that she is angry.  She used to always knock me down verbally but would always show some kind and loving actions too.  Does that mean not painted black? 

I honestly feel like an amateur therapist at times referencing all these things.  Guess I feel super insecure and full of self-doubt and wondering if perhaps all the things that she had spoken about me in the past were true and I am the one who is undiagnosed... .

I hung my hat on the BPD coat hook because it is the only thing that I have read or heard that seemed to fit all the pieces together.  Sometimes I doubt what I think I know at a profound level.

[Mutt]

How does she see you at the moment?

Does she have all good things to say about Joe?

Does she have all bad things to say about you?

I'm using black and white statements because a pwBPD have difficulties seeing a person as an integrated whole.

Maybe she sees you as all good for awhile and then all bad again? I recall being split black for several days then to find that I was split white and I was frustrated with her behaviors that week only to be split black again after having invalidating her.

I know now when I am split black its how my ex partner perceives me as being all bad, rarely validates, has mostly awful things to say about me and that I have spiteful motives regardless of how kind or compassionate I treat her. Her mind is triggered subconsciously for self protection with anxiety and stress.

If you're split white you're on a pedestal, she'll say wonderful things about you, she sees no faults and you can't seem to do wrong in her perception.

A pwBPD have difficulties viewing the grey areas in people and the world. It's all or nothing thinking.

I honestly feel like an amateur therapist at times referencing all these things.  Guess I feel super insecure and full of self-doubt and wondering if perhaps all the things that she had spoken about me in the past were true and I am the one who is undiagnosed... .

I can understand feeling confused Joe. It helps to understand projection and splitting and how a pwBPD need a caretaker to shift their feelings of self worth and negative feelings about themselves to their partners. It's how she copes.

What's more realistic? You're all good or all bad or you're somewhere in between the grey area? Are these her feelings she's projecting and what are your actions and behaviors?

[joeramabeme]

How does she see you at the moment?

Does she have all good things to say about Joe?

Does she have all bad things to say about you?

I'm using black and white statements because a pwBPD have difficulties seeing a person as an integrated whole.

Maybe she sees you as all good for awhile and then all bad again? I recall being split black for several days then to find that I was split white and I was frustrated with her behaviors that week only to be split black again after having invalidating her.

I know now when I am split black its how my ex partner perceives me as being all bad, rarely validates, has mostly awful things to say about me and that I have spiteful motives regardless of how kind or compassionate I treat her. Her mind is triggered subconsciously for self protection with anxiety and stress.

If you're split white you're on a pedestal, she'll say wonderful things about you, she sees no faults and you can't seem to do wrong in her perception.

A pwBPD have difficulties viewing the grey areas in people and the world. It's all or nothing thinking.

I have no doubt that my wife Splits.  We have even had arguments about Joe being too gray. 

The last judgement statement she made about me to my face, either good or bad was in April when she accused me of hiding money from her and wanted to see all my bank statements for the last year.  I obliged so that she could see I was not lying and when she found nothing wanted me to go back even further b/c she was sure it was true.  I guess this is splitting black?

She has more or less always spoken to me in negative ways since the 2nd or 3rd year of the marriage; how I dress, what I do, how much I earn, what I watch and eat etc.  Heck, she even would make up story lines in her mind and then would accuse me of trying to do her wrong. 

All these comments were always punctuated with times when there were acts of kindness and heartfelt I love you's.  Painting white?

Since the April bank investigation, she has acted like she is a droid; no expressed feelings at all.  Not unpleasant but not pleasant.  She wont say good or bad things; she will give me the time of day, ask about the weather and such but that is all.  When I came home from work, I could hear her scurrying upstairs to not be in my presence.  My interpretation was she was wanting me to get used to the idea that she wasn't going to be in my life any longer.  Perhaps this was her punishment to me?  So, that is what I was calling splitting black; shut off and shut down.   complete sanitizing our interactions to be completely non-emotional and not allowing a drop of feeling to pour from her.

I have recently posted on this forum about my denial of BPD and calling my wife mentally ill.  I wanted to relay a story that may help me finally snap another piece of the puzzle firmly into my mind.  I have some old birthday cards that she has given to me through the years displayed in my office.  I went to read a couple today and on the cover of one of them is a boy dressed in a super-hero's cape.  On the inside she told me how heroic I was for navigating some difficulties over the last year gone by and that she will love me forever.  I remember getting that card and feeling so surprised that she gave it to me because her words were often so negative towards me.  Does this story embody the Painted Black and Painted White trait that we are discussing?

I feel like some of this falls into Push/Pull.

Thanks Mutt, I need some help in getting all this comfortably categorized internally.

[Mutt]

The last judgement statement she made about me to my face, either good or bad was in April when she accused me of hiding money from her and wanted to see all my bank statements for the last year.  I obliged so that she could see I was not lying and when she found nothing wanted me to go back even further b/c she was sure it was true.  I guess this is splitting black?

No this sounds like fear of abandonment perceived or real. She may make assumptions or question if you're cheating or having an affair - perceived abandonment.

What's the back-story with the bank investigation?

PS. split white is when she's content, you're fulfilling her needs - she needs an emotional caretaker.

[joeramabeme]

The last judgement statement she made about me to my face, either good or bad was in April when she accused me of hiding money from her and wanted to see all my bank statements for the last year.  I obliged so that she could see I was not lying and when she found nothing wanted me to go back even further b/c she was sure it was true.  I guess this is splitting black?

No this sounds like fear of abandonment perceived or real. She may make assumptions or question if you're cheating or having an affair - perceived abandonment.

What's the back-story with the bank investigation?

PS. split white is when she's content, you're fulfilling her needs - she needs an emotional caretaker.

The back story is that when we filed for divorce she just wanted me to take my clothes and half the furnishings and go away.  She has 3x the money that I have and feels that it is just hers because she earned it.  True enough, she earned more money than me.  The investigation was b/c she was surprised that I did not have more in my savings account and by her understanding this indicated that I had been siphoning money and "hiding it from her".  I explained that this would have meant that I would have been preparing for divorce and since I was asking her to not divorce me, this would not make sense.  It did for her.

I see about the splitting white.  I honestly do not know if I was ever taking care of her emotional needs.  More to the point, in retrospect, I don't think she ever let me get too close to her needs.  The only time I can remember meeting her needs is when she had an operation and had to have someone to help her.  Otherwise, she is very independent.  But I do have an extensive childhood history of care taking and perhaps some of the need I met for her was not abandoning her when she would push so hard.

So I am reading your response as she is not splitting me black and this is push/pull behavior?  

[lm911]

No, there is nothing you can say. It is up to her. In a time she may split you white again ( for some reason that is in HER brain and will not be because you have said sth) but you have to try starting to accpet the fact that you migh be split black forever). I am telling you this because I have tried everything, and there is no closure.

[Mutt]

No, there is nothing you can say. It is up to her. In a time she may split you white again ( for some reason that is in HER brain and will not be because you have said sth) but you have to try starting to accpet the fact that you migh be split black forever). I am telling you this because I have tried everything, and there is no closure.

From what I have read from different members it's not necessarily forever. Some members are split black for weeks, months, years and sometimes decades. Everyone that suffers from BPD are on a continuum, have different characteristics, traits and severity.

When two healthy adults split often there's closure. Your wife suffers from social impairments Joe. We can give closure to ourselves. I am sorry you're going through all of this.

The back story is that when we filed for divorce she just wanted me to take my clothes and half the furnishings and go away.  She has 3x the money that I have and feels that it is just hers because she earned it.  True enough, she earned more money than me.  The investigation was b/c she was surprised that I did not have more in my savings account and by her understanding this indicated that I had been siphoning money and "hiding it from her".  I explained that this would have meant that I would have been preparing for divorce and since I was asking her to not divorce me, this would not make sense.  It did for her.

She wanted the divorce and you have been together for 10 years. Have either of you mentioned divorce over the course of your marriage?

When you're asking if this is push / pull are you wanting for her to pull again?

What I am saying is that she sounds like the demure type, some pwBPD will split black and have intense anger and not necessarily all Joe. I'm getting the feeling that maybe her fear of abandonment was triggered with filing for divorce. Abandonment is a pwBPD's Kryptonite.

[joeramabeme]

She wanted the divorce and you have been together for 10 years. Have either of you mentioned divorce over the course of your marriage?

When you're asking if this is push / pull are you wanting for her to pull again?

What I am saying is that she sounds like the demure type, some pwBPD will split black and have intense anger and not necessarily all Joe. I'm getting the feeling that maybe her fear of abandonment was triggered with filing for divorce. Abandonment is a pwBPD's Kryptonite.

She asked for the divorce in December and then arranged circumstances such that I was the one who need to file to protect my own self while she played victim.

When I asked 'why' she wanted divorce she said, "I abandoned her" 2 years earlier.  I stated the obvious (so dumb of me) by saying how could I have abandoned you if I am still here.  She meant Emotional Abandonment. 

And she was correct, during one of her angry-caustic bouts she was going off about an imagined event that did not happen and was all upset at me about it.  I literally turned my back and walked away from her.  I had had enough.  I could not take anymore.  That led to about 1 year of luke-warm relationship.  After that year I decided that I was going to stay with her and got back into it.  It was never quite the same.  In her words "I devastated her".

When I read SWOE and BPD fear of abandonment, bells went off.  I have struggled to fit her behavior pattern into all the BPD pattern, not that it isnt there, just not in its entirety and my understanding and acceptance is still developing.  But the part of the book that was about BPD traits read like a diary of our r/s.  That is why I am here.

So, I am going to stop saying that she painted me black. 

This is probably more push/pull - Abandonment.  And yes, I still want more of the pull.  Sadly, I don't really know why.

I think your 'demure' comment is spot on.  We have both been reasonably more than civil (aside from the money) to one another during this process. 

I am just torn up b/c I abandoned myself too much to the r/s, accepted too much blame and criticism and never held her accountable (i tried though) and then she decided to divorce with nothing more than a comment about how I abandoned her and she is not happy. 

Truth is, she is just being who she has always been.  If I make a move to get on the same page with her, she will change direction on me.  The divorce is no different.

Thanks Mutt et al., the end of the Move Day and I am still here to write about it thanks to this group!

I am hoping for better days to come and especially for a diminished sense of confusion about all this and hopefully even if I cannot intellectually grasp all this, I will emotionally accept it.

[apollotech]

And she was correct, during one of her angry-caustic bouts she was going off about an imagined event that did not happen and was all upset at me about it.  I literally turned my back and walked away from her.  I had had enough.  I could not take anymore.  That led to about 1 year of luke-warm relationship.  After that year I decided that I was going to stay with her and got back into it.  It was never quite the same.  In her words "I devastated her".

Hey Joe,

This is a good example of her splitting you black. She lost control of the attachment and abandoned the relationship (even though she stayed with you). In my opinion, that's not fear of abandonment triggered. Remember what I said about you, and her for that matter, not having control of the relationship, that BPD was driving the bus (over the cliff)? The material above is a perfect example of that, look at her actions and your reactions and then her reactions to your reactions overlaid with the BPD complex.

You're not in a push/pull cycle, as of yet, because the pull is absent (it may, or may not, occur later). If her fear of abandonment gets triggered, she'll iniate a pull. The same can be said if she splits you white.

I am sorry that you are in this man. I hate that your marriage ended. I know how that feels. The only thing you can do now, the only thing that you actually do have control of, is to take care of yourself.

[sas1729]

Hey Joe,

I'm sorry to hear this story  It sounds incredibly difficult and that you're hanging in there. I don't know how much I can offer but I will try. After a 2.5 year relationship with my BPDex, I cannot fathom a 10 year one. The push/pull cycle was too much. In fact, that push/pull cycle had a steady downward decline. What I mean by that is that the painted white moments eventually lost appeal. Things were bad to a point that being painted white was barely getting me through.

We didn't live together so the pushing away moments involved sending me away to my apartment. I barely spent any time at my own place so being there was often because of a fight. But when it comes to closure, I honestly don't know if there can be any verbal closure in such a relationship. One of the difficult things for me when I was learning about BPD is accepting that I cannot fix it. I cannot fix the relationship or help my BPDex unless she took charge of it. And, furthermore, hoping is not going to help either. Saying this sounds like me giving up, but it's not. The black/white cycle is endless, and "giving up" is rather accepting that this is the nature of BPD.

I found my closure when I accepted that there is nothing that I can do to fix BPD. There would be another upswing in the future as well as the inevitable downswing. As badly as I wanted some verbal closure, in my case it was not going to happen.

As for your comment about the birthday cards, I have some similar experience. On an anniversary or Christmas we would exchange cards. In the ones she wrote to me, there would be some statement about "fixing us" or "we'll get it right", something like that. And there was an outpouring of love. I realize that pwBPD are attuned to what they can say/do to keep someone in the cycle. At points after the breakup I wondered if she wrote such things to keep me going. After all, it is just a written statement, and the data from the relationship (how she treated me) led me to wonder if this was love after all. Now looking back I think that perhaps those written messages were what she wanted to feel all along. She wrote them in a private moment when I was away, so perhaps the momentary solitude helped her to focus her feelings. I think that in the end she did love me, but it was all underneath the storm of BPD.

But the thing is that whether or not she loved me, the mask of BPD led to the outward expressions and the treatment that I received. I had to realize that I could no longer excuse her behaviour because "she actually loves me deep down inside". I just don't know what else to say. I'm very sorry to say this because it is sad. I never got verbal closure. And in the final parting I saw the look on her face change. She fought hard to keep me, despite all of the evidence suggesting that it was a bad relationship. When I finally said that I'm going her expression changed from sadness to acceptance. At that moment I knew that things were definitively over. If anything, that was my closure in person. So the gesture that you received, that look that you described, whatever is going on beneath the surface that may be the best closure. Good luck. It is very difficult but you are strong and you'll get through this.