It seems like she is trying to come back

[turbo squash]

My wife and i have been separated for close to two months now. She had an affair. She has been back to therapy. However, we already have a tentative divorce agreement and we are just waiting on the attorney to write everything up.

It seems like she is trying to come back.

She has done the push/pull, of course, but each time she does it, she gets a little closer and opens up a little more. That is what has me wondering that she might be sincere. I am still guarded, but it seems like she is sincere.

At the beginning of the separation, she wouldn't let me touch her. She would freak out if I even put my hand on her back or shoulder. There was a brief period where she did allow contact two weeks in, but that retrogressed for a while, but has since come back. The amount of contact that she allows me to have with her seems to be steadily increasing. Like I said, there is still push/pull, but the trend seems to be upward.

She has slowly started opening up about her feelings more and more. We met today and she apologized profusely. She has apologized here and there in the last couple of weeks, but she seemed to feel this apology a lot more.

We have been talking about the things that we think contributed to the affair. We both recognize that we made mistakes. I feel like we have recognized the majority of the issues that contributed to it, but continued therapy will probably help to find any that we might have missed.

She says things that show that she is interested in working on our marriage, i.e. "I can't help but think about us doing xyz... ." She has directly said that she has not decided to work on our marriage, but she keeps on saying things that indicate that she wants to. She has admitted to still wanting me and loving me a couple of weeks ago and has been pretty consistent on that. Today she said that she wants to be with me more than anything, but that she feels so guilty for what being with her could/will/might do to me.

I think that she is having a hard time forgiving herself for what she did.

I have consistently told her that I love her, I want to be with her, and that I think our marriage isn't broken. She feels very hopeless right now and she feels like she destroyed our marriage beyond repair.

Please help me keep my head on straight. My therapist told me to stay guarded on Monday and let her make the next move. I'm trying to do that. I can't ignore the fact that today, she came to me to meet me. That is an amount of effort she hasn't exerted yet during the separation. Every other time, we will meet somewhere else or I will go to her, but this time, she came to meet me at work.

Again, please help me keep my head on straight. I try to repeat in my head over and over, "I am still getting a divorce," but that isn't helping a whole lot.

[RELATIONSHIP PROBLEM SOLVING]

RELATIONSHIP PROBLEM SOLVING This is a high level discussion board for solving ongoing, day-to-day relationship conflicts. Members are welcomed to express frustration but must seek constructive solutions to problems. This is not a place for relationship "stay" or "leave" discussions. Please read the specific guidelines for this group.

[MaroonLiquid]

My wife and i have been separated for close to two months now. She had an affair. She has been back to therapy. However, we already have a tentative divorce agreement and we are just waiting on the attorney to write everything up.

It seems like she is trying to come back.

She has done the push/pull, of course, but each time she does it, she gets a little closer and opens up a little more. That is what has me wondering that she might be sincere. I am still guarded, but it seems like she is sincere.

At the beginning of the separation, she wouldn't let me touch her. She would freak out if I even put my hand on her back or shoulder. There was a brief period where she did allow contact two weeks in, but that retrogressed for a while, but has since come back. The amount of contact that she allows me to have with her seems to be steadily increasing. Like I said, there is still push/pull, but the trend seems to be upward.

She has slowly started opening up about her feelings more and more. We met today and she apologized profusely. She has apologized here and there in the last couple of weeks, but she seemed to feel this apology a lot more.

We have been talking about the things that we think contributed to the affair. We both recognize that we made mistakes. I feel like we have recognized the majority of the issues that contributed to it, but continued therapy will probably help to find any that we might have missed.

She says things that show that she is interested in working on our marriage, i.e. "I can't help but think about us doing xyz... ." She has directly said that she has not decided to work on our marriage, but she keeps on saying things that indicate that she wants to. She has admitted to still wanting me and loving me a couple of weeks ago and has been pretty consistent on that. Today she said that she wants to be with me more than anything, but that she feels so guilty for what being with her could/will/might do to me.

I think that she is having a hard time forgiving herself for what she did.

I have consistently told her that I love her, I want to be with her, and that I think our marriage isn't broken. She feels very hopeless right now and she feels like she destroyed our marriage beyond repair.

Please help me keep my head on straight. My therapist told me to stay guarded on Monday and let her make the next move. I'm trying to do that. I can't ignore the fact that today, she came to me to meet me. That is an amount of effort she hasn't exerted yet during the separation. Every other time, we will meet somewhere else or I will go to her, but this time, she came to meet me at work.

Again, please help me keep my head on straight. I try to repeat in my head over and over, "I am still getting a divorce," but that isn't helping a whole lot.

I would definitely stay guarded and don't push.  Don't be readily available either.  Just know that this MAY be a part of push/pull and expect another turn.  My wife and I over the last several months have gotten really close at times again also and then she turns on a dime (like yesterday) for whatever reason I'm the bad guy this time. 

[turbo squash]

I agree that I should stay guarded.

It is tough though, I am not going to lie. One new thing that has started happening this week is that she has been asking about what would need to happen for us to fix the marriage. I have told her the basics and she has said that those wouldn't be a problem for her but that she isn't saying we are getting back together.

One of the things is separation from the lover. He is a coworker. She told me today that she got put up for a promotion, and if she got it, it would mean that she would work in a completely different part of the building and would never see him. She quickly followed up with, "But that doesn't mean that we are getting back together... .I just wanted to let you know."

She seems to frequently say things and then catch herself. Several times she has said, "I love you" or "Bye honey" and then she catches herself and gets mad at herself for saying it and apologizes to me for saying it.

I also realize that she could do just what your wife has done and just up and disappear. I realize that this is all part of the illness, but I am definitely feeling much weaker than I did 2-3 weeks ago.

[mindwise]

She seems to frequently say things and then catch herself. Several times she has said, "I love you" or "Bye honey" and then she catches herself and gets mad at herself for saying it and apologizes to me for saying it.

I also realize that she could do just what your wife has done and just up and disappear. I realize that this is all part of the illness, but I am definitely feeling much weaker than I did 2-3 weeks ago.

It is tough, sorry you are going through this.

I think the more uncertain they are about what they do and say, the more certain we must be about our goals and values.

Pointing a direction and taking the lead with decisiveness seems vital to me.

Stay guarded

[turbo squash]

She seems to frequently say things and then catch herself. Several times she has said, "I love you" or "Bye honey" and then she catches herself and gets mad at herself for saying it and apologizes to me for saying it.

I also realize that she could do just what your wife has done and just up and disappear. I realize that this is all part of the illness, but I am definitely feeling much weaker than I did 2-3 weeks ago.

It is tough, sorry you are going through this.

I think the more uncertain they are about what they do and say, the more certain we must be about our goals and values.

Pointing a direction and taking the lead with decisiveness seems vital to me.

Stay guarded

That is the plan of course... .

but then, last night, we had dinner. We parted ways. She said she was going to stay at a friend's house. I said I would take care of the animals at her(our) apartment. I text her and tell her I'm just going to sleep there and then a few hours later she shows up and snuggles up to me. Who knows what is going to happen. I'm not going to get my hopes up though.

[formflier]

 

Tubro squash

I think you are on the right track.

You are presenting yourself to her as interested... .but a bit aloof... .definitely not "chasing" her.

At some point... you will have to communicate clearly to her your desires... and boundaries.

Spend this time working on that... .so that when the times comes... .you are ready.

We can help you sort through with how best to present that... and discuss when the right time is.

FF

[turbo squash]

You are presenting yourself to her as interested... .but a bit aloof... .definitely not "chasing" her.

At some point... you will have to communicate clearly to her your desires... and boundaries.



FF

That is the good or bad part. She knows what would be required of her. She said that that those things would not be an issue for her.

It seems like the only thing that is stopping us from moving forward is her fear of me abandoning her. (Terribly ironic isn't it?) Like I said before, she came to me last night and snuggled up to me. She has not done that in more than a month. It is the newest peak of physical contact that she allows and the threshold she allows keeps going up.

I even just got an e-mail notifying that she transferred me money. No strings attached. She just said that she knew I was thin right now and sent me money. She makes a good bit more than I do for the moment.

It is really hard for me to not start thinking that it will work out after all.

[an0ught]

It seems like the only thing that is stopping us from moving forward is her fear of me abandoning her. (Terribly ironic isn't it?)

which is really her problem that you can't and better don't try to solve.

[formflier]

which is really her problem that you can't and better don't try to solve.

Please take this advice to heart! 

If... .and it's a big if... .she brings it up... .try to validate.

Let her be the one that brings it up.

If she knows what she has to do... .and has no problem doing it... .then... .I assume she is doing it... .right?

Watch the actions... .more than the words.  Use the words to attempt to validate emotions.

FF

[vortex of confusion]

It is really hard for me to not start thinking that it will work out after all.

It might work out after all. It might not.

The key is to not become too attached to one particular outcome. If you are too attached to one particular outcome, then that can interfere with the setting of boundaries and staying the course.

For the last couple of years, my husband and I were in a cycle where I would think he was doing better. He said all of the right things. He told me that what I wanted was perfectly reasonable. He would try to stay the course but would fail for some reason or another. He would pick himself up and try again. It was a bit frustrating for me because, in the beginning, when he would do good, I would get excited and hopeful. When he would fail, I would feel crushed. Now, he has been doing pretty good for the last 6 months or so. I am glad to see it and I am supportive of him. I still try to maintain that detached position so that when he slips, I won't take it personally and I won't see it as a big deal.

I think it helps to figure out what your deal breakers are so that you can use them as a bench mark to know how much leeway to give as you try to stay neutral and let her deal with her own stuff. Let her solve her own stuff.

[turbo squash]

which is really her problem that you can't and better don't try to solve.

Please take this advice to heart!  

If... .and it's a big if... .she brings it up... .try to validate.

Let her be the one that brings it up.

If she knows what she has to do... .and has no problem doing it... .then... .I assume she is doing it... .right?

Watch the actions... .more than the words.  Use the words to attempt to validate emotions.

FF

I know that I can't fix her problem for her.

It seems like she is making progress with it though. ~3 weeks ago she wouldn't even let me touch her in any way. She has progressively let me touch her (non-sexually) more and more. Last night, she snuggled up to me in bed for a little bit. That has not happened in a long time. She has stopped trying to hide if I am in the room when she is changing. She gave me some money today. She has purchased dinner for me twice this week. (We separated our paychecks early in the separation and so she actually is giving me something.)

Yesterday when she bought dinner for me, I actually instigated the meeting. I thought that after all the good stuff this week, it might be worth a shot to try to initiate. I didn't get my hopes up, but she agreed to meet for dinner. It went well and was completely positive. I didn't bring up relationship stuff at all, but she did after dinner.  


She brings up her fears somewhat frequently... .perhaps once a day over the last week? I try to use SET whenever she brings it up.

"I'm sorry that you are in so much pain. You must really be struggling to decide if I am worth the risk. I'm still here though, and I still love you."

That seems to be helping her.

I am a big believer of actions speak louder than words. Seeing her actions change so much is part of why I'm having a hard time staying neutral. I'm still maintaining it, but goodness it is hard.

The key is to not become too attached to one particular outcome. If you are too attached to one particular outcome, then that can interfere with the setting of boundaries and staying the course.

For the last couple of years, my husband and I were in a cycle where I would think he was doing better. He said all of the right things. He told me that what I wanted was perfectly reasonable. He would try to stay the course but would fail for some reason or another.

This is much easier said than done. Throughout my life, I have probably been optimistic to a fault. It has lead to numerous disappointments. I feel like I have gotten that under better control though. When I was driving to meet her for dinner last night, I kept repeating to myself out loud,"We are still getting divorced. This doesn't mean that she wants to work on our marriage."

What you described there though is probably my greatest fear. Since we have gone so long before now without a serious episode of dis-regulation, I feel hopeful that, with therapy and intelligent healthy support from me, serious dis-regulations can be a thing of the past. I don't think I could do what you have done for 17 years.

This is my first serious episode of dis-regulation to encounter and it was tough. The learning curve was definitely vicious and my heart was in pieces for a while. Even though I know as much as I do now, I couldn't handle this sort of thing happening over and over again.

I think it helps to figure out what your deal breakers are so that you can use them as a bench mark to know how much leeway to give as you try to stay neutral and let her deal with her own stuff. Let her solve her own stuff.

We have established some of those deal breakers already. I am working with my therapist to try and nail down all of my deal breakers. She knows that there are things that she is required to do for the relationship to continue. I feel very firm about those initial requirements too.

I am getting better about letting her deal with her own stuff and not taking it personally when she, for example, gets overwhelmed by prolonged physical contact with me and has to scoot to the other side of the couch.

It hasn't been this way at all though for the first three years of our relationship. I could see the BPD symptoms in different parts of our relationship, but it was never anywhere near this bad. I recognize that the "honeymoon" phase of the relationship stopped at one point, but even though I could see the symptoms of BPD after that, they weren't severe or life altering like they are now. Is there any hope that, with her desire to get better and therapy, we could get back to that relatively normal place?

I feel like she is sincere in her efforts to genuinely be different, because she isn't trying to act like everything is all better all at once and she isn't trying to seduce me or anything. If I'm being crazy, tell me.

[an0ught]

You are not. Continue working on yourself - no matter how this goes that investment pays back!

[formflier]

 

Can you give us some word for word of how she expresses her fears? 

FF

[turbo squash]

Continue working on yourself - no matter how this goes that investment pays back!

This is true. I was doing really well for a while there and then she started trying to come back. Obviously she hasn't already made up her mind, but her actions show that she is trying to come back. Seeing that happen after writing her off is brutal. I was honestly happier when it appeared that the marriage was over. She said that she didn't love me anymore. It all seemed so simple.

Now that she has admitted that she still loves me and has feelings for me and wants to be with me, I can't help but open myself up a tiny bit to loving her. But loving her also means realizing that she sees her lover at work every day. Knowing that that is happening is extremely depressing.

The depression is making it a lot harder to work on myself.

Can you give us some word for word of how she expresses her fears?  

FF

Here are some things she has said:

"I don't know what to do. I freak out when I'm around you and I freak out when I'm away."

"I'm walking away from you out of fear and because I know that it's best for you. I'm walking away from children and a family even though it's what I want because I know it's not what I need. I can't be what a family needs from me."

"You'll just leave me. I don't trust you to stay."

"You don't want me. You never will"

"I let you in and you broke my heart. You terrify me."

"You're right. I am afraid."

"I feel guilty."


Currently she is researching and is trying to decide between whether or not she will work on the marriage. This is brutal. I try to detach as much as I can, but damnit it isn't easy.

[formflier]

 

What emotion is "freaking out"

Has she ever expressed that she is angry, fearful? 

Have you asked.

I'm thinking that validation is a better idea that SET. 

This is about her emotions... .not you getting her to see the "truth" that you love her...

FF

[turbo squash]

What emotion is "freaking out"

Has she ever expressed that she is angry, fearful?  

Have you asked.

I'm thinking that validation is a better idea that SET.  

This is about her emotions... .not you getting her to see the "truth" that you love her...

FF

Freaking out = anxiety. She has expressed that she is fearful. She has expressed that she is angry with herself. I have said that I thought she was feeling this or that and she typically confirms it.

I try to validate while using SET. I'll say something like, "I can understand why you feel overwhelmed right now. You have a lot on your plate. Anybody would feel overwhelmed."

Or should I be doing more to validate her?

Obviously, nobody wants to sit on pins and needles waiting for their spouse to choose them. Is this unhealthy for me to give her time to decide? I hate waiting as she goes through this decision process. I feel like it should be such an easy decision, but I am aware that because of the connections that develop in an affair, it isn't easy to decide. I hate the fact that she is struggling to decide more than anything I can describe. It is massively depressing... .but then again, when an affair happens, it rocks your world anyways. How do you draw the line between what should be expected in any affair and me enabling her behavior?

I also realize though that this could be the only major bump in our marriage road for the rest of our lives... .or it could end anyways in another 6 months.

I have read a lot of different opinions on the internet. Some say you should give them time and others say give them no time at all. I don't know where my limit is with that. I keep on trying to figure it out and all that I can conclude is that this hurts like hell and at some point in the near future, I won't be able to put up with anymore of her waiting to pick me.

[formflier]

 

Give her time and space... .

https://bpdfamily.com/content/communication-skills-validation

Please read the lesson... .read other lessons on validation.

SET is about getting them ready to hear the truth... .yes it can be validating as well.

But... .if they do not feel that you love them... .and you SET that to them... .it may not be validating.

So... .please read... and write us some validating statements... .you know the truth... .

Think more about her emotions and less about your truth... .

Truth is not the battlefield... .many nons... including me... .mistakenly though it was... .

FF

[vortex of confusion]

Or should I be doing more to validate her?

What about NOT invalidating her?

The statement "I can understand why you feel overwhelmed right now. You have a lot on your plate. Anybody would feel overwhelmed." could be invalidating to her. I say that because my husband has tried to use those "I can understand" statements on me. The reason that I find them invalidating is that he doesn't understand what I am going through as I try to heal from the BS that has happened in our relationship. He will never understand it no matter how hard he tries. Just like I will never understand what he is going through as he wrestles with all sorts of shame and guilt and not even being comfortable in his own skin. I can imagine his struggles and he can imagine mine yet neither of us will truly understand the struggles of the other because we are coming at things from completely opposite angles.

Obviously, nobody wants to sit on pins and needles waiting for their spouse to choose them. Is this unhealthy for me to give her time to decide? I hate waiting as she goes through this decision process. I feel like it should be such an easy decision, but I am aware that because of the connections that develop in an affair, it isn't easy to decide. I hate the fact that she is struggling to decide more than anything I can describe.

When my husband and I started to actively try to do something about the crapulence, a lot of people told us to wait a year before making any kind of decision about anything. That seems to be a pretty common recommendation in 12 step groups. The reason for waiting a year to make any kind of decision is that it gives both parties time to heal. And, the other recommendation is to put the relationship stuff on hold for a while and focus on yourselves. Trying to work on the relationship and come to a decision while both people are in unhealthy/bad places can make things worse. The goal is to step back and have both people focus on getting healthier so that when it comes to make an actual decision, the decision is coming from a healthier place.

[turbo squash]

I can understand why you feel overwhelmed right now. You have a lot on your plate. Anybody would feel overwhelmed.[/i]" could be invalidating to her.

This is good insight. I could probably talk to her more and figure out the things that I would need to do. I should also do more reading about validation. I can see how what I said could be invalidating to someone.

When my husband and I started to actively try to do something about the crapulence, a lot of people told us to wait a year before making any kind of decision about anything. That seems to be a pretty common recommendation in 12 step groups. The reason for waiting a year to make any kind of decision is that it gives both parties time to heal. And, the other recommendation is to put the relationship stuff on hold for a while and focus on yourselves.

That is the unpleasant truth I don't want to hear, but need to hear.

Granted, when you and your husband were at that point, how long had you been married? Were there kids?

Right now, we have only been married 2.5 years. We do not have kids. Waiting a year while she continues to see her lover is not something that I think I am capable of doing. Allowing myself to consider the possibility of a future with her while the affair hasn't completely stopped is soul crushing. I will fail my classes this fall if I have that hanging over me. I have lost an incredible amount of productivity over this. I've also gone from 192-195 pounds to 175 pounds in two months. I can't keep these soul crushing feelings alive for long.

If waiting a year is something I can't do, what is my next best option?

[formflier]

If waiting a year is something I can't do, what is my next best option?

Step 1... .figure out for yourself... .what your dealbreakers are... .those are based on values that you hold dear.

So... .how long can your wife carry on an affair before it becomes a dealbreaker?  That seems to be an important thing to figure out.

This is for you to figureout... .don't worry about BPD rules... .worry about your values...

FF

[turbo squash]

If waiting a year is something I can't do, what is my next best option?

Step 1... .figure out for yourself... .what your dealbreakers are... .those are based on values that you hold dear.

So... .how long can your wife carry on an affair before it becomes a dealbreaker?  That seems to be an important thing to figure out.

This is for you to figureout... .don't worry about BPD rules... .worry about your values...

FF

I don't know where I am with that.

I know of a family where the dad had an affair and even moved in with his lover for a time... .but the mom refused to divorce him, he came back, and they ended up fixing their marriage. Today, you would be hard pressed to find a happier couple.

On the other hand, I know another family where he cheated and divorced his wife for his lover. His life crumbled. He lost his job. His wife raised a bunch of kids on her own and struggled massively for years just to make ends meet.

I say all of this just to illustrate how torn I am. I read one article recently where the person was told to give their spouse six months to choose between the spouse and the lover. It took a few months, but the cheater chose the spouse and they ended up living happily ever after.

But then I have a friend who was separated from his wife for a long time, tried to make it work, and ultimately watched it fail. It crushed him.

As I talk through all of this I think it comes down to this for me:

I will not allow myself to have feelings for her as long as it jeopardizes my future. I am already a couple years behind my peers, and I hate it. I am not willing to risk my grades or take a break from school for her when she can't decide that she wants me.

Unless my feelings about her seeing her lover every day change drastically in the next 3-3.5 weeks, I guess that is where I draw the line... .because all of this crap hanging over my head would cripple me in school.

[vortex of confusion]

Granted, when you and your husband were at that point, how long had you been married? Were there kids?

15 or 16 years and 4 kids!

If waiting a year is something I can't do, what is my next best option?

Like FF said, figure out how long you are willing to wait. Some people completely reject the year long recommendation, especially if there are no kids involved and the relationship is still pretty young.

What are you willing to tolerate?

And, you can go through with the divorce and then start fresh with her later. I have known people that have done that as well. Looking and seeing what other people has done might not be too helpful because for every success story, there is a story of failure. Focus on YOU and what YOU want and what you realistically think you can handle.

[formflier]

Focus on YOU and what YOU want and what you realistically think you can handle.

This is why I think internet research and reading about all these stories has it's limit.

We can help you figure out "how" to do things better... .bpdfamily is great for that. 

But... .only you can figure out if you "should" do it... .and if "it" aligns with your values.

Last... .do what is right for you... .regardless of outcome. 

For instance.  I'm a stayer... I am going to do the things to be a stayer.  If my wife ends up divorcing me... .I have lived my values... .and that is not a failure (although it is likely I will be sad... )

Does that point of view help?

[turbo squash]

Focus on YOU and what YOU want and what you realistically think you can handle.

This is why I think internet research and reading about all these stories has it's limit.

We can help you figure out "how" to do things better... .bpdfamily is great for that. 

But... .only you can figure out if you "should" do it... .and if "it" aligns with your values.

Last... .do what is right for you... .regardless of outcome. 

For instance.  I'm a stayer... I am going to do the things to be a stayer.  If my wife ends up divorcing me... .I have lived my values... .and that is not a failure (although it is likely I will be sad... )

Does that point of view help?

Thank you VOC and FF. That does help. I won't say that I'm 110% a stayer. When we are living together and she isn't off with somebody else, I can put up with a whole lot. No problem. This whole separation thing just has my mind racing.

I feel like I am the guy that will be the superstar husband as long as she works on getting and staying better. I am a giving person. I could be really good for her, but she has to choose me and respect my boundaries in order to get me.

Things seem to be moving in a good direction. A couple hours ago SHE brought up marriage counseling. I see this as a tiny little victory. Trying not to get my hopes up or sacrifice any of my boundaries and values. Figuring out those boundaries and values is taking longer than I thought it would.

[formflier]

I feel like I am the guy that will be the superstar husband as long as she works on getting and staying better. I am a giving person. I could be really good for her, but she has to choose me and respect my boundaries in order to get me.

This is big life picture stuff... .who you are.

It is a bad idea to tie who you are to another person.  That can lead to "enmeshment"... .generally... .a bad thing for your identity and the r/s you are in.

It is even a worse idea to tie your identity to another person that is showing signs of a serious mental illness.

So... .think about it... .and let us know who you are... .what YOU want out of this r/s. 

Listen... .we all have our limits.  But... they are ours.  You need to find yours. 

Yes... .I'm pushing you on this... .because many other things flow from this

I'll try to use a funnyism to illustrate it.  If you are wishy washey... .and standing in the middle of the road... .

Well... what happens to those that stand in the middle of the road?

FF

[turbo squash]

This is big life picture stuff... .who you are.

It is a bad idea to tie who you are to another person.  That can lead to "enmeshment"... .generally... .a bad thing for your identity and the r/s you are in.

It is even a worse idea to tie your identity to another person that is showing signs of a serious mental illness.

So... .think about it... .and let us know who you are... .what YOU want out of this r/s.  

Historically, I have been a sensitive person. One of the things that I loved about my wife was how much she validated feelings that I had. I loved feeling validated and loved. I also have a serious drive to be successful. It may be an unhealthy drive, but that is part of who I am and I don't want to let it go. My wife while still young, has been successful and is moving up through the ranks. I really like that part about her.

One of the things she said when we first started dating is that she could promise me that I would never be bored. That has definitely been true. While not all of the exciting things have been the good kind of exciting, I have never been bored. My FOO, while awesome, is kind of boring. My wife's spontaneity is attractive to me.

So, I want success, love, validation, and spontaneity. Is that what you're going for?

I also can't stop thinking about how I will never want to go through another two month period of insanity like this again. Is it foolish to hope that if we do reconcile and she stays in therapy that we will never have another long drawn out episode like this?

[vortex of confusion]

So, I want success, love, validation, and spontaneity. Is that what you're going for?

How can you get those things with or without your wife? If you want those things, then create a life for yourself where you can get those things without relying on your wife to get them. What kind of support network do you have? Can you be spontaneous without your wife?

Something else you might consider is whether or not you want to have kids. If you want to have kids, how might that fit into the equation?

I also can't stop thinking about how I will never want to go through another two month period of insanity like this again. Is it foolish to hope that if we do reconcile and she stays in therapy that we will never have another long drawn out episode like this?

I think it is okay to not want to go through anything like this again. The reality is that there will likely be more periods like this if you reconcile. Even if she is in therapy, the likelihood of her having these kinds of episodes again is quite likely. They may not be as long and there may be long periods of time where things are fine. Stressors tend to set them off and there is no way to predict stressors.

Earlier in the thread you mentioned that you don't know how I have done this or 17 years. Things haven't been horrible for those 17 years. There has only been a couple of years that I would consider high conflict. Most of the time, it has been pretty peaceful. He has been checked out and clearly had anger bubbling under the surface. Most of the time, it came out as incidents where he would be grumpy and short. I knew something wasn't quite right but I couldn't put my finger on it and I couldn't describe it.

[turbo squash]

How can you get those things with or without your wife? If you want those things, then create a life for yourself where you can get those things without relying on your wife to get them. What kind of support network do you have? Can you be spontaneous without your wife?

Something else you might consider is whether or not you want to have kids. If you want to have kids, how might that fit into the equation?

I have a pathway for my life with and without her to get success. I get love and validation from my mother and grandmother whenever I want it. Spontaneity is something I feel like I am not programmed for at all. I have gotten better about handling it, but the way my brain works, everything is seen as an equation. Spontaneity, by its very nature, disregards that and I feel like that is part of what gives me success in school and work.

I think it is okay to not want to go through anything like this again. The reality is that there will likely be more periods like this if you reconcile. Even if she is in therapy, the likelihood of her having these kinds of episodes again is quite likely. They may not be as long and there may be long periods of time where things are fine. Stressors tend to set them off and there is no way to predict stressors.

Stressors were definitely what set them off. For the last two years straight, I have been working full time and in school full time. She has had a lot of medical treatment for an injury unrelated to BPD that was not her fault. I also realize now that there were a lot of things that I was doing that were wrong. I wasn't validating her feelings at all. I was a terrible listener. I didn't protect my boundaries. Knowing what I know now and looking back at the first two years of our marriage, I'm surprised things didn't come to a head like this sooner.

Earlier in the thread you mentioned that you don't know how I have done this or 17 years. Things haven't been horrible for those 17 years. Most of the time, it has been pretty peaceful.

That does sound a lot more manageable. I worry that I am being too optimistic and that I will disregard things that I shouldn't and end up miserable again in the future anyways. So she will have periods of disregulation again in the future... .I accept that that is the reality. I guess I just hoped that instead of being times where we live apart for two months and she has an affair, it is more of the sort of thing where she sleeps in the other room a couple of nights.

I read a lot about people who were able to make things work, recover, and be happy. I think my greatest fear is that even after recovering as much as she is capable of recovering, it still won't be enough to make me happy.  

I won't tolerate another affair. I don't think that she wants to be that way though. In one of the increasingly common moments of clarity, she broke down and talked about how miserable she was and how much she hated herself for messing up our marriage so much. She doesn't think that she is worthy of being forgiven or trusted again.

[formflier]

I won't tolerate another affair. 

So... are you tolerating this affair? 

Where does an affair fall out in this list that you wrote?[/quote]
So, I want success, love, validation, and spontaneity.  [/quote]
Where is the value in what you want that says you won't tolerate an affair... .or another affair? 

Yes... .still pushing... .because it's not the answer that matters... .it's that you have thought this through... .and have an answer.

Eventually we will be educating you about putting boundaries in place... .boundaries will be based on your well thought out values.  If you "cave in" on a boundary... .that is bad stuff... .worse than not having them at all.

FF

[turbo squash]

I won't tolerate another affair. 

So... are you tolerating this affair? 

Where does an affair fall out in this list that you wrote?

So, I want success, love, validation, and spontaneity.  [/quote]
Where is the value in what you want that says you won't tolerate an affair... .or another affair? 

Yes... .still pushing... .because it's not the answer that matters... .it's that you have thought this through... .and have an answer.

Eventually we will be educating you about putting boundaries in place... .boundaries will be based on your well thought out values.  If you "cave in" on a boundary... .that is bad stuff... .worse than not having them at all.

FF[/quote]
I'm not upset about being pushed. I appreciate it. It is helping me sort all of this out.

I don't know that I am tolerating it. I guess not moving forward with divorce right now is, in a way, me tolerating it. It isn't that I am not willing to move forward, I am just waiting for the attorney to do everything.

I have told her that I won't be with her unless she chooses to be with me and that if she does not choose me before my semester starts up in a few weeks, she will have lost her chance.

I say that I won't tolerate a second affair because of what I have read about affairs. If someone has only had one affair, it may be something that can be fixed. If it is their 2nd or 3rd, it is much more likely that it will be a pattern. That is why I won't tolerate a 2nd affair but I am willing to forgive the 1st IF she does everything that I have told her she needs to do to fix our marriage.

I guess that I am more forgiving of this 1st one because I realize that I did a lot of things the wrong way and I wasn't there for her emotionally like I should have been. My emotional availability would not have been sufficient for any woman, let alone a woman with BPD. Thus, recognizing how I contributed to it in some way makes me willing to try again and forgive her this time.

I feel like I am much more healthy now than I was before. I feel like I am much better equipped to be a good listener and available emotionally like she needs me to be. That is why I am willing to try again. If, after I have improved myself so much and she continues her therapy, she does it again, then I will know beyond the shadow of a doubt that my improvements and her therapy won't fix the marriage. That is when I would definitely cut my losses.