The difference between the FOG and empathy...

[valet]

Hello there!

I was thinking today and something came to mind. I wanted to share it to try and get some ideas bouncing off of each other.

So, we all know what the FOG is: the feelings of fear, obligation, and guilt that we experience while in any kind of unhealthy relationship. The FOG, in general, is not productive. It traps us, keeping us away from being the people that we truly are. In other words, telling someone what we think they'll want to hear, and giving up our own needs for the needs of another when it only compromises ourselves.

Empathy, on the other hand, is the practice of stepping outside of our own emotions and truly putting ourselves in someone else's shoes, so to speak. This is productive. It helps us build healthy relationships and defuse any conflict situations that we might face. So, being able to listen and validate, without sacrificing ourselves in the process.

I'm not sure why, but today the line seems somewhat blurry. For those of you that don't know my situation, I've been trying to build a friendship with my pwBPD. She seems pretty regulated right now, and all of our communications have been very nice. Strangely, though, I feel that when she is in this good, seemingly happy place, it is much easier for me to empathize with her. She is not in 'attack' mode, so why would I even think of defending myself?

But what happens when she deregulates? This is my real question. I have a feeling that at this moment in time, the FOG might be gone for good, but I'm still a little timid about actually having the knowledge and skills that I've acquired here in the last few months tested. Honestly, I hope that they never are, but this isn't a realistic way to look at things if I am going to be accepting of who my pwBPD is, which is a personality disordered person who struggles to maintain a stable sense of self and maintain healthy relationships.

So, how can we tell practically tell the difference between FOG and empathy? Is it feasible to say that sometimes being empathetic is also a way of being lost in the FOG? Or, in other words, can we be too empathetic, and what are some ways to spot this in ourselves and avoid it?

[disorderedsociety]

FOG makes my body tense and my mind scattered.

Empathy is like an ah-ha moment that makes your insecurities seem so trivial and puts things in perspective. Yeah you can have empathy for your BPD person all day but its like a skill that gets focused into a pinhole and when its focused on a pinhole its scope becomes the size of a pinhole.

[fromheeltoheal]

Hey valet-

So, how can we tell practically tell the difference between FOG and empathy? Is it feasible to say that sometimes being empathetic is also a way of being lost in the FOG? Or, in other words, can we be too empathetic, and what are some ways to spot this in ourselves and avoid it?

To me they are related in that attempts at empathy created the fog.  I have the ability to empathize pretty well, and I thought I was with my ex in the beginning, I know when I am with most people, and echoing back to them what I'm feeling when I empathize with them usually results in them seeing I 'get' them and it draws us closer.  But with my ex, I'd try and empathize, because I was trying to create a legendary relationship, and she was all over the place, ALL over the place, rapid mood swings, mental chaos, unpredictability, and I just ended up being totally confused.  Being an understanding-driven person, confusion is my Kryptonite, and the longer I stuck with it the more confused I got, so the fear, obligation and guilt showed up, and into the Twilight Zone we went.  But the one thing that was consistent throughout was my gut feel, which was screaming at me, but I ignored it, figuring I could think and reason my way through.  Ha!

So to answer your question, listen to your gut, what's it telling you?  Our guts aren't subject to denial, they tell it like it is, and mine is never wrong.

[valet]

My gut says full steam ahead.

I feel that I can handle anything, and that I will make the best decisions for myself regardless of any feelings of shame or guilt that are projected onto me.

This is the happiest that I've felt in a long time, and it's totally different than it ever has been for me. I'm not relying on anything except myself. I'm just... .good.

[Klo]

Empathy won't be about you, it will be about the other person and what they are experiencing.

Empathy won't make you doubt yourself, hate yourself, feel pressured against your better judgement or fear for yourself. It won't be about you at all, so it won't have a negative emotional impact on you, about your own self.

Empathy is simply making the effort to understand where another person is coming from / what they are experiencing, and caring about it.

An example might mean that if she destabilizes and tries to start a nasty fight with you, that you refuse to participate in the fight. You know that she is a disordered person and is feeling miserable, and you care, so you won't add fuel to the fire. That is empathy. FOG would be if felt guilty, afraid or obligated to go against yourself.

[fromheeltoheal]

My gut says full steam ahead.

I feel that I can handle anything, and that I will make the best decisions for myself regardless of any feelings of shame or guilt that are projected onto me.

This is the happiest that I've felt in a long time, and it's totally different than it ever has been for me. I'm not relying on anything except myself. I'm just... .good.

Good for you valet!  Run with it.  And if you feel yourself going to another place, you'll know what to do, or at least your knowing what to do will be tested, and you sound strong right now!

[eeks]

So, how can we tell practically tell the difference between FOG and empathy? Is it feasible to say that sometimes being empathetic is also a way of being lost in the FOG? Or, in other words, can we be too empathetic, and what are some ways to spot this in ourselves and avoid it?

I don't think it's possible to be "too empathic" unless you're, as I phrase it, "jumping outside of yourself" to help someone else, which isn't really empathy (more co-dependency).  A way to spot this might be that you are feeling drained or stressed by the interaction rather than neutral or more energized/connected to the person in question.

I am very interested in Nonviolent Communication (book by the same name), developed by Marshall Rosenberg.  I've read the book and it looks like there are some Youtube videos (I've only listened to one) that explain more about the philosophy behind the technique.  One of the principles is that you have to have empathy for yourself before you can have it for someone else.  Of course, it helps to receive empathy from someone else in expanding your capacity to have empathy for yourself, but it's something people can learn to check in with themselves when they receive an explicit or an implicit request from another person to do something.  There are also options for when you don't have empathy for yourself, like asking for it from another person who isn't involved in the conflict, or postponing the discussion.

[rotiroti]

Valet,

Another excellent topic! I believe that FOG and empathy are related, but one has clear set boundaries while the other does not.

I work in a hospital and when dealing with grieving or concerned patients/family members, I am able to utilize empathy. Drawing upon past personal experiences and feeling how they feel, I can create rapport. FOG was never an issue in these patient-physician interactions as there are clear set emotional boundaries. You can definitely be an empath without being lost in the FOG.

However with my r/s with my BPDex that was a whole another story. There was a complete lack of boundaries. It was as if our psyches were fused. At one point I felt like her emotional needs were also mine in some sense -- We had known each other for many years and her idealization was intoxicating. All of our values were the same, future goals were somehow identical, and even our dreams seemed to be in sync. So why not assume our emotions were on the same channel too?

I think back to my past relationships and this was never the case. While I became emotionally intimate with previous partners, we were always two separate entities. We could empathize with each other and it was a give and take of sorts. With the BPDex it was easy for me to confuse emotional intensity with that of intimacy. When she dysregulated I tried to understand it or thought that I was at fault for not being able to fix something that was essentially me (or similar to myself). It was a completely unhealthy bond for me... .and the failures to soothe that tempest really triggered the FOG... .and it just kept getting more and more intense.


whew!


That's a great update with your situation! I think it might be some walls you put up from last time perhaps? I have great faith that you will be just fine if she were to dysregulate, you know exactly what to look for in her and yourself.

[antelope]

I'm not sure why, but today the line seems somewhat blurry. For those of you that don't know my situation, I've been trying to build a friendship with my pwBPD. She seems pretty regulated right now, and all of our communications have been very nice. Strangely, though, I feel that when she is in this good, seemingly happy place, it is much easier for me to empathize with her. She is not in 'attack' mode, so why would I even think of defending myself?

But what happens when she deregulates? This is my real question. I have a feeling that at this moment in time, the FOG might be gone for good, but I'm still a little timid about actually having the knowledge and skills that I've acquired here in the last few months tested. Honestly, I hope that they never are, but this isn't a realistic way to look at things if I am going to be accepting of who my pwBPD is, which is a personality disordered person who struggles to maintain a stable sense of self and maintain healthy relationships.

So, how can we tell practically tell the difference between FOG and empathy?

I think in your situation, the answer may lie in your motivation to have a friendship with this person... .

friend, with or without 'boy' or 'girl' in front of it still implies honesty, reciprocity, respect of boundaries, etc... .is she truly capable of something like this, esp with a former romantic partner?

are you going to be her empathetic friend when she's playing nice, then revert to some other role when she dysregulates?  is that a friendship?

your motivations to be her friend at this point may have something subconsciously to do with still needing to rescue her, this time from a 'knowledgable therapist' position, or some other unhealthy dynamic; or perhaps this is a remnant of your unfinished work on your own self-esteem

please, understand I'm not trying to sh1t on your good feelings    ... .just wondering what this interaction with her is really achieving for either party... .

[Sunfl0wer]

I think of two people fishing... .  pwBPD and Non are fishing... .

pwBPD:  "I haven't caught a fish all day.  It is your fault, you are catching them all day and leaving none for me to catch!"

Non: Feels empathy - Thinks, yea, it sucks being out all day without one catch, I remember how that sucks.

Non: Has FOG enables/disempowers pwBPD - "What do you mean? We have been fishing all day in the same water, it is not my fault.  Maybe you just don't know what you're doing.  Step aside, let me show you how, I better do this because if I don't, you'll starve."  Non, puts down own rod, a fish bites and drags nons rod into the water and it is now gone.  Non continues to happily catch fish with pwBPD's rod... ." showing her how it's done."

Non: shows empathy and enables/empowers pwBPD - "Looks like maybe the fish are just swimming on my side of the pier!  Here, try this bait... .and a little tug sooner and I think you may convince them to nibble your line."  Non doesn't need to let go of his rod, can continue fishing and enjoying himself.  He may decide to secure his rod a min and help with a tip or two, but he doesn't take over the other rod and quickly tends back to his own rod.  He may even just get close side by side and demo, while holding his rod next to pwBPD for demo.

[valet]

I'm not sure why, but today the line seems somewhat blurry. For those of you that don't know my situation, I've been trying to build a friendship with my pwBPD. She seems pretty regulated right now, and all of our communications have been very nice. Strangely, though, I feel that when she is in this good, seemingly happy place, it is much easier for me to empathize with her. She is not in 'attack' mode, so why would I even think of defending myself?

But what happens when she deregulates? This is my real question. I have a feeling that at this moment in time, the FOG might be gone for good, but I'm still a little timid about actually having the knowledge and skills that I've acquired here in the last few months tested. Honestly, I hope that they never are, but this isn't a realistic way to look at things if I am going to be accepting of who my pwBPD is, which is a personality disordered person who struggles to maintain a stable sense of self and maintain healthy relationships.

So, how can we tell practically tell the difference between FOG and empathy?

I think in your situation, the answer may lie in your motivation to have a friendship with this person... .

friend, with or without 'boy' or 'girl' in front of it still implies honesty, reciprocity, respect of boundaries, etc... .is she truly capable of something like this, esp with a former romantic partner?

are you going to be her empathetic friend when she's playing nice, then revert to some other role when she dysregulates?  is that a friendship?

your motivations to be her friend at this point may have something subconsciously to do with still needing to rescue her, this time from a 'knowledgable therapist' position, or some other unhealthy dynamic; or perhaps this is a remnant of your unfinished work on your own self-esteem

please, understand I'm not trying to sh1t on your good feelings    ... .just wondering what this interaction with her is really achieving for either party... .

Hey antelope, thanks for you input here. It's valuable to me to hear that maybe... .I am not making the best choices right now. I have that thought that before, and I still try to actively put myself into 'reality check' mode when I can. When I am grounded, I am better at seeing reality for what it is and not what I want it to be.

This might come off as a little bit defensive to you. I understand if it does, and you have every right to question my motives here. I would do the same thing looking in from the outside.

I don't know what she's capable in friendship. What I can say, however, is that the friendships she has with people that maintain their boundaries with her are functional. I would even go as far as saying profitable. Remember, I'm not making these judgments from a place of not understanding her. If she were different, I would be making different choices. This could be a whole new level of OZ, and also my internal denial of the disorder. I am still working to understand it, but I think that I have the nuts and bolts down pretty tight.

Truthfully, I don't know what the future holds, and I'm not placing bets. As far as I see it, any kind of a relationship outside of a friendship is impossible. I'm doing my own thing, and the future seems very bright. This is my reality, and I don't foresee it bending.

She has been kind to me so far (I might even go as far as saying... .a decent friend, but I am still just beginning the process of rebuilding trust), and when she has tested my boundaries it doesn't take her too long to catch on. I'm not doing the dance anymore. I am not responsible for her emotions, and I accept the choices that she is making. She is who she is. I can't change that. It is not my responsibility.

Granted, you could be right as well. I can't deny that possibility. What I do know is that if I am put in a conflict situation, I have full confidence in myself to do what's best for me.

[antelope]

thank you for your reply valet... .I have faith in your growth, and ability to detach as you/when you need to 

I speak from my own experience... .I am 3 years out (not one word exchanged in 3 years), and basically a different person... .more grounded, more confident, belief in myself, and a full comprehension of what happened and why... .

I toyed around with the idea to 'befriend' her as well

I still sometimes play out a scenario in my head: of her coming to me, in some horrendous disarray and chaotic surrender, pleading with me to help her b/c I'm the only one who ever saw the issue as being BPD, and I understand her, so she's ready to talk and change... .or something like that 

why?

I think helping her from where I see things now would give me a sense of fulfillment and duty in life... .like paying it forward, but not in a healthy way

I also realize how awkward the exchange of information would be, esp long-term.  Friends hang out, talk about whatever, kid around... .with her there would be the underlying topic of asking her 'how she's doing' aka is your BPD sh1t under control?  I couldn't just shut those aspects of her life out... .I think I've wasted enough of my time having a superficial relationship her.

The final thing I realize why I couldn't befriend her is that I trigger her, whether friend or foe.  In our romantic relationship, the BPD experience played out to the point where I became a stand-in for one of her parents (or both), and the persecutor role and drama triangle were in full bloom.  This is inherent in pretty much all of their longer term relationships, regardless of my seemingly altruistic motive to be her friend... .that's only going to change after much much therapy.

too much history, too much damage, too little worthwhile to build on... .right now.

... .and, maybe I have a few issues with personal fulfillment and control I need to work on as well