Gaslighting - still shaking...

[Dobzhansky]

Wow -

Will try to be brief and concise.  If I am unclear or additional explanation is needed, please let me know.

Problem: uBPDw left a year ago to another state.  Left me w 2 teenage daughters (16 & 19).  Little to no contact w girls.  Blames them for not reaching out to her.  Girls understandibly hurt and mistrustful of uBPDw.

Had weekly chat/update tonight w uBPDw.  uBPDw expressed frustration the girls were resisting coming to see her.  I let her know what the girls had shared with me in the context of therapy.  The girls on more than one occasion had let me know they were really upset and hurt with the way their mom had left.  One of the key phrases the girls remember from the night she announced she was leaving was this:  "I am tired of doing mommy things.  I want to do auntie things." referring to being concerned with not having lived in the same town as her nieces and nephews and missing out on their lives in spite of fairly regular visits.

I was pressed tonight to explain in greater detail why the girls feel as they do about going to see her.  I shared their memory of that night, citing in particular the phrase above, which we all remember in common.

She vehemently denies ever having said such a thing, ever.

I was then cut off and wished a good night.  uBPDw appears high-functioning and able to interact w outside world and hold a job and be respected in her field.  I understand there may be a high level of regret and shame with regard to having left and her reasons for having left.

Thoughts?  Is this "gaslighting"?  Who can look in to their crystal ball and tell me what happens next?

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RELATIONSHIP PROBLEM SOLVING This is a high level discussion board for solving ongoing, day-to-day relationship conflicts. Members are welcomed to express frustration but must seek constructive solutions to problems. This is not a place for relationship "stay" or "leave" discussions. Please read the specific guidelines for this group.

[Ceruleanblue]

I think both you and your girls are going to have to give up on her ever actually owning what she said. She likely won't. You all know she did, so try to make that be enough, because that's probably as good as it's going to get. She had almost certainly rewritten the past, so to her, it's as if she never said it.

This is for me, one of the most frustrating things about BPD. It's like MY reality, and facts, are constantly debated, or I'm told it didn't happen. It can make you feel crazy.

Your girls have a right to be hurt, and their Mom denying her part in it is only going to make it worse. I'm glad to hear your girls are in therapy. I'm sure the T will offer good advice on how to deal with this.

[married21years]

why is this your job to fix.

she has to sort this with the girls or suffer, this sounds like triangulation and gaslighting with a little projection thrown in for good measure.

the girls are old enough to sort out themselves and if they dont want a relationship fine.

if is the GF mess let her sort it

feces my codependency therapy is really kicking in

her mess she fixes it.  not your problem!

[an0ught]

Hi Dobzhansky,

I would be super careful sharing with your uBPDw what the girls have shared in therapy as this is to a degree betraying their confidence. And even if girls would ask you to do that then it would be triangulation. They are not kids anymore and while laking superficial demeanor are quite possibly emotionally more mature than your wife.

[Dobzhansky]

I would LOVE to give this problem up.  I am committed to staying, but fret sometimes she will divorce.

Do I act as a shield between uBPDw and girls?  I do not purposefully hijack conversations as there are none.  she does not contact girls apart to say "Good job on test" or "Soccer game on ESPN" maybe once/month by text.

Do I just report what I see here from girls to uBPDw?  Or ask girls to deal w mom directly?  Youngest (16) expressed desire to confront mom on this.  Say "I don't wanna come because... ."  I turned youngest aside until we meet w T.  I am concerned youngest could get pulled in to a shouting match w mom over what perceived truth is = further damage?

On top of it all... .

Eldest (22) getting married in Cabo Dec 22 (during Christmas vacation).  uBPDw is convinced she is not allowed to come to wedding.  Eldest has assured me she told mom she is welcome. (Gaslighting?) I have plans to go to Cabo for 3 days for wedding then allow them their honeymoon.  Anxious this will also fling fuel on the fire.

FOG FOG FOG FOG FOG!

[married21years]

she is playing on your fears and manipulating you, be strong be centered and stop rescuing her

her issue her problem, dont rise to the bait!

come here instead. 

[babyducks]

Hi Dobzhansky

Here are my thoughts:

First I am completely in agreement with an0ught.   I would be very very very careful about repeating or sharing anything disclosed in therapy.  Therapy is intended to a safe environment where things can be shared without fears of reciprocations.   Protect that.

Second,  I also agree with CeruleanBlue, she is never going to acknowledge she said this.   My favorite author Margalis Fjelstad said exactly this:  pwBPD suffer from thought instability which means they display these traits

Thought Instability

- All-or-nothing thinking (ex. loving  you so intensely and then just as quickly reversing to hating you or thinking that they are a total failure, or conversely immensely superior)

- Intense belief in their own perceptions despite facts to the contrary

- Their interpretation of events is the only truth

- Cannot be persuaded by fact or logic

- Do not see the impact of their own behavior on others

- Deny the perceptions of others

- Accuse others of saying or doing things they didn't say or do

- Deny (even forget) negative or positive events from the past that conflict with current feelings

I would suggest that you continue to support your girls by validating their emotions.   Provide them with as many tools as you possible can to help them cope with a high conflict person.   What ever is appropriate for them.

You wife has made her choice.   Your wife "pressing you to explain in greater detail" is her way of trying to draw you into to accepting responsibility for her problem.   Like married21years said, this is not your problem to fix.   Your wife said hurtful things, left, has maintained low or little contact, and is now attempting to get you to negotiate a solution.   Sorry Dobzhansky, but I just don't see how this is on anyone but her.   You mean to tell me she can't get back on a plane and fly to see her daughters?   Call them on the phone?   Send them a card?  Email?

It has to be exhausting to act as shield in all this, so first take care of yourself.   Let the responsibility for this problem belong to the person who created it.   Support the girls.   Encourage them in healthy behaviors.   Take a look a the lesson on triangulation because I see more of that than I do of gaslighting.

And let this play out without your intervention.  Your wife is going to think what she thinks regardless of what you say or do.   

make sense?

'ducks

[waverider]

First off we don't like to use the term Gaslightingh as this is a pop culture term for a sane person with a criminal intend to scam someone into doubting there sanity. It is not a clinical expression.

You are talking a disordered mind where the reasoning and motivation is often twisted. It needs to be dealt with differently.

What you are dealing with is the defensive reaction of someone who struggles to accept partial responsibility. This results in denial and blocking. She could very well have constructed her own reality and actually believes it.

Triangulation is always at play in family relationships, it can be healthy problem solving or it can be toxic back stabbing and betrayal.

I would not pass on any of your daughters thoughts and reasoning without first clearing it with them. If your wife lashes out at them and throws back something at them that they told you in confidence it can turn ugly.

In reality you do not have to explain the obvious, this gives her the chance to vocalize denial and thereby giving it more weight in her mind. It turns from guilt into active defense against your "perceived attacking of her character'... far more justifiable in her eyes, and take it one more step away from the real issue.

[formflier]

 

I understand the though of sharing what girls have said in T... .I used to think that way.  You most likely though that these are our girls and "we" as parents should have a common knowledge about their concerns and medical care (physical and mental).  In a relationship with two emotionally healthy parents this is probably a good way to go about things.

Unfortunately... .the reality is that you are the one attempting to make healthy choices and she does not appear to be.

So... .if she wants to be involved in girls T... .or family T... .she knows where these things are and can fly back to take part.

She has chosen not to do so... .while this is troubling for you... .she has made her choice.

It's not your job to repair this.  I think a better description of your "job" as a stayer is to leave the door open so if she chooses to come back in a healthy way... .she can walk through the door.

So... .if she complains again about not being invited to the wedding... .I would ask her about her feelings... .if she reveals some... .validate.  Leave it at that... .

Or... .perhaps it is best to point out that you are not involved in the inviting... .and change the subject.

Thoughts?

FF

[JadeIshka]

I used to think this sort of behavior was gaslighting too, but have spent a lot of time examining all the behaviors that surround this sort of denial and now have a very different understanding of them. I think my BPDh actually doesn't remember some of what he says--especially when emotions are running high. It's almost as though feelings and emotions can't run through the same channels as reason and logic. They're often mutually exclusive in my husband's brain, especially when he's depleted or in pain (much of the time because he runs himself ragged and has some health issues). It's why I always know where my little digital recorder is--I've surreptitiously recorded two arguments over the years, just to have on hand in case I need them. So far I haven't--haven't even listened to them over again. It's nice to know I have recourse, however, when the loopy thinking starts turning ugly.

I'm sorry you and your girls are going through this, and second what everyone has already said about caring for yourselves and letting her have the consequences of her reality.