He's engaging me, but . . .

[KateCat]

He... .most likely... .is a better swimmer than you give him credit for... .

While very painful, it may be worth considering that he already has rescuers set up to help him on his next step.

[RELATIONSHIP PROBLEM SOLVING]

RELATIONSHIP PROBLEM SOLVING This is a high level discussion board for solving ongoing, day-to-day relationship conflicts. Members are welcomed to express frustration but must seek constructive solutions to problems. This is not a place for relationship "stay" or "leave" discussions. Please read the specific guidelines for this group.

[formflier]

 

Ptilda,

Please head over to my new post and take a look at the "vibe" that I try to give off when having a conversation with my wife (remember... paranoia is core for her)

https://bpdfamily.com/message_board/index.php?topic=281275.msg12657790#msg12657790

I hope this will help you formulate some strategy on how to communicate with  your hubby.

There is a lot of trial and error... .to this... .

FF

[ptilda]

So I'm going to try to address all the questions/concerns expressed here.

He does use a lot of extreme life and death terms. Some of that is cultural. Haitians are quite dramatic in their speech. But some of it is just him. More than the speech, it's the attitude I'm concerned about. At times he'll be quite optimistic and hopeful. He has not been this at all in the past months since this madness started. He is assuming the worst and is making desperate decisions based on what he feels is his inevitable demise at my hands.

His "please stop" is what he says whenever I try to speak with him, although now he's initiating and I'm just responding. It usually means he wants me to stop writing, but this time he said, "I could asked you to stop writing me but no." It's like he wants me to keep responding (in fact I'm certain that he wants that), but answers other than what he finds acceptable are causing him turmoil.

I understand the idea of saying I should not give explanations, and I don't think I've been doing that. It would be helpful to me if specific things were pointed out rather than hearing "don't do this or that." As you have pointed out, you have more experience in this and I'm just learning. Some of the things you refer to in one way or another, I might not even see in that way.

Ironically, my husband is an excellent swimmer having grown up a few feet from the Caribbean. That being said, he has no plan. I know that for certain because his closest friends and family members keep in close contact with me and they keep me informed. In addition, I happen to know that he's shooting in the dark and hoping for the best. It is true that he can go back to Haiti and survive. But I'm not concerned with survival yet. We haven't gotten to that point.

Is there another woman? I hope so! There's not, but if there was, I'd be happy. The sooner he can encounter another American woman with his issues, the faster he'll see me as the good one hahaha!

So at this point the question is how to address the last part of the conversation (if at all). He wants me to tell him "ready for what?" I mean ready to speak with me. I mean ready to have a conversation. But of course I can't say that. So if I ignore his demand for me to answer that, I am conceding to his insistence that I have a master plan, etc.

Also, what do I do about the mail? That message came immediately after all the other messages, and he's done this many times. Right after he made all the fuss about having a police escort to move his things out, he contacted me and asked me to be sure to get his mail to him. It's like one thing he can continue to try to test me to see if I'll do it. Personally I have no desire to go through that effort to get his mail to him when I left his key for him for that express reason! It's a game. It's his way of pulling my strings to see if he still has control. . . or if he ever did.

[ptilda]

Ptilda,

Please head over to my new post and take a look at the "vibe" that I try to give off when having a conversation with my wife (remember... paranoia is core for her)

https://bpdfamily.com/message_board/index.php?topic=281275.msg12657790#msg12657790

I hope this will help you formulate some strategy on how to communicate with  your hubby.

There is a lot of trial and error... .to this... .

FF

I did read this post and find it encouraging to see you have worked through the real challenging times and are in a bit of a rhythm. I also responded to point out some of the differences. Your reactions are not only impossible (I can't hold his hand over Facebook) for me, but he would not respond well because his emotional needs are different (such as my reference to his love language being acts of kindness).

That being said, this is why I am stuck on the mail thing. By asking me to get his mail together in an envelope and leave it in the package room, he is asking if I still love him. How do I know that? Because every time he says/does something mean to me, he turns around and asks me to do something nice for him. It's not generally anything difficult or unreasonable, but it's his way of confirming that I am still there for him even after his outbursts. So without skipping a beat he goes from heaping accusations on me, to asking me to make sure he gets his mail (knowing I gave him his key back specifically for this reason).

I know this is an opportunity for me, but not sure how to approach it. I would appreciate input. . .

[rotiroti]

Ptilda,

Please head over to my new post and take a look at the "vibe" that I try to give off when having a conversation with my wife (remember... paranoia is core for her)

https://bpdfamily.com/message_board/index.php?topic=281275.msg12657790#msg12657790

I hope this will help you formulate some strategy on how to communicate with  your hubby.

There is a lot of trial and error... .to this... .

FF

I did read this post and find it encouraging to see you have worked through the real challenging times and are in a bit of a rhythm. I also responded to point out some of the differences. Your reactions are not only impossible (I can't hold his hand over Facebook) for me, but he would not respond well because his emotional needs are different (such as my reference to his love language being acts of kindness).

That being said, this is why I am stuck on the mail thing. By asking me to get his mail together in an envelope and leave it in the package room, he is asking if I still love him. How do I know that? Because every time he says/does something mean to me, he turns around and asks me to do something nice for him. It's not generally anything difficult or unreasonable, but it's his way of confirming that I am still there for him even after his outbursts. So without skipping a beat he goes from heaping accusations on me, to asking me to make sure he gets his mail (knowing I gave him his key back specifically for this reason).

I know this is an opportunity for me, but not sure how to approach it. I would appreciate input. . .

You know your husband best, but to an outsider this sounds like testing of your boundaries as a caretaker and a complete lack of such boundaries. These reactions can get out of hand because you've shown him time and time again that you'll meet his needs despite doing something "mean." It's a way for a pwBPD to feel like they have control and power which they always seek. You said it in your post that he'll turn right back around with accusations. There is already excellent advice here which is to try something different. Yes every problem has a solution, but sometimes you have to try every single one. Like being a non-judgemental listener.

[ptilda]

Ptilda,

Please head over to my new post and take a look at the "vibe" that I try to give off when having a conversation with my wife (remember... paranoia is core for her)

https://bpdfamily.com/message_board/index.php?topic=281275.msg12657790#msg12657790

I hope this will help you formulate some strategy on how to communicate with  your hubby.

There is a lot of trial and error... .to this... .

FF

I did read this post and find it encouraging to see you have worked through the real challenging times and are in a bit of a rhythm. I also responded to point out some of the differences. Your reactions are not only impossible (I can't hold his hand over Facebook) for me, but he would not respond well because his emotional needs are different (such as my reference to his love language being acts of kindness).

That being said, this is why I am stuck on the mail thing. By asking me to get his mail together in an envelope and leave it in the package room, he is asking if I still love him. How do I know that? Because every time he says/does something mean to me, he turns around and asks me to do something nice for him. It's not generally anything difficult or unreasonable, but it's his way of confirming that I am still there for him even after his outbursts. So without skipping a beat he goes from heaping accusations on me, to asking me to make sure he gets his mail (knowing I gave him his key back specifically for this reason).

I know this is an opportunity for me, but not sure how to approach it. I would appreciate input. . .

You know your husband best, but to an outsider this sounds like testing of your boundaries as a caretaker and a complete lack of such boundaries. These reactions can get out of hand because you've shown him time and time again that you'll meet his needs despite doing something "mean." It's a way for a pwBPD to feel like they have control and power which they always seek. You said it in your post that he'll turn right back around with accusations. There is already excellent advice here which is to try something different. Yes every problem has a solution, but sometimes you have to try every single one. Like being a non-judgemental listener.

I think if you look back through my story as posted here, you'll see that since becoming aware of BPD, I have absolutely NOT been available to "meet his needs" in ways like this. For example, last time he did this and demanded that I meet him alone at night to give him his key (the same day that he needed a police escort to help him move his things out because he said I might "beat him", I simply ignored his request for a bit (not too long to make him freak out), and made myself unavailable for the weekend telling him that I'll contact him when I'm back in town. And I returned his things to him on my own terms (which he didn't like, but I didn't ask permission OR forgiveness) without causing any unnecessary shame or drama for him.

So that's where my challenge is. I know it's a game. I want him to know that I still love him, but it's a never-ending game and I know that such knowledge is going to be a long time in coming for him. In the meantime, how do I address this? Point out that I will leave the mail on the counter and he can use his key to get in? Let him know that if it is important for him to come when I'm not here, he will need to schedule that with me? Should I bring up the idea of him getting a police escort again? I don't think they'll do it for mail since that can be handled in other ways. What about forwarding the mail to his lawyer?

Again, asking for ideas here.

[formflier]

I know this is an opportunity for me, but not sure how to approach it. I would appreciate input. . .

I see two ways to go with this... .

One... confirm your love by doing it and ignoring his outbursts... .if you can walk away from the outbursts sooner... .not listen or participate in any way... .then... .this may be the way to go.

The reason I want you to walk away... .is there needs to be a connection in his mind to him saying something bad... .and you leave his presence (but without "reacting"

The last thing we want is for him to understand via actions or words that abusive outbursts are ok

So... .when I hear (I am paraphrasing)   "he is mean to me... and then asks me to do a loving thing... "... .I worry that you doing the loving thing confirms that the mean thing is OK to do to you

Option two:  When he has an outburst... .zero tolerance... .he gets nothing from you... .you walk away.   (again... don't lecture him or explain it a zillion times... .just remove yourself)  Possibly let him know you will be back in 10 minutes... or 20.

Then... when you are back... .if he asks about mail or another loving thing... probably fine to proceed since you have separated the good from the bad.

Thoughts?

FF

[formflier]

 

I don't like him having a key... .when there is a "need" for police escorts... .and tensions are high.

I'm much more of a fan of inviting him for coffee... .some light chit chat... .hand over mail... .go on about your day.

It's his mail... .let him solve this... .

You may be able to use this to get some good in person interactions with him... .but at end of day... .it's not your problem...

FF

[ptilda]

I don't disagree with any of the above. Keep in mind, there is no physical interaction with us, either in person or voice-to-voice. I've done that intentionally. He can't speak with me without being a jerk, so I won't speak to him on the phone, only through messenger which allows me to think out my responses and take time to answer, and it also documents what he's saying and doing.

His whole thing right now is that he is afraid of me. I am a horrible person he was tricked into loving and coming to the U.S. for and giving his "life savings" and career to (in reality he gave me nothing, only enough to cover a portion of what I paid for him). He can't have coffee with me because that throws out his entire claim that I am a horrible, abusive, violent person. I suspect that the next time I see him will be at the divorce hearing and he will refuse to look at me as he has done for the past several months.

At this point, everything I do is grounds for scrutiny by him. So here's what I'm inclined to respond:

"Sorry for the delay in my answer, I was at church and I've been sick the past few days [true statements and shows that I'm not going to interrupt my life for his drama, but also acknowledges the reason I delayed in responding]. By "ready," I meant if you feel that you have more to share with me, I want you to know that I'm available to hear you [gives him an explanation for my use of "when you feel ready" without being too specific].

I'll let you know when the mail arrives. I still have the other items you received and will put them together [agreeable without yet telling him if I will do as he says since I haven't decided yet]."

Thoughts?

[formflier]

"Sorry for the delay in my answer, I was at church and I've been sick the past few days [true statements and shows that I'm not going to interrupt my life for his drama, but also acknowledges the reason I delayed in responding]. By "ready," I meant if you feel that you have more to share with me, I want you to know that I'm available to hear you [gives him an explanation for my use of "when you feel ready" without being too specific].

I'll let you know when the mail arrives. I still have the other items you received and will put them together [agreeable without yet telling him if I will do as he says since I haven't decided yet]."

Here is my advice...

"Hey... .trying to clear up some possible confusion.  When I mentioned "ready"... my purpose was to let you know I am ready to chat if you have things to share with me... ."

"Some mail has arrived at our house (intentional use of "our".  I'm going to have a coffee break at (name the place) around (name the time).  My treat and you can get your mail."


Listen... .you are getting smart on lessons... .rules and all that.  He may not respond... .(don't chase)

He may show up and be abusive... .(excuse yourself for a couple minutes to the ladies restroom)... .come back... .if he is abusive again.  Let him know you look forward to chatting when you guys can communicate properly.  (don't accuse... just say your boundary).

You never know... .it might go better... .

If you stick with "carefully crafted texts"... .remember... .less is more...

FF

[ptilda]

"Sorry for the delay in my answer, I was at church and I've been sick the past few days [true statements and shows that I'm not going to interrupt my life for his drama, but also acknowledges the reason I delayed in responding]. By "ready," I meant if you feel that you have more to share with me, I want you to know that I'm available to hear you [gives him an explanation for my use of "when you feel ready" without being too specific].

I'll let you know when the mail arrives. I still have the other items you received and will put them together [agreeable without yet telling him if I will do as he says since I haven't decided yet]."

Here is my advice...

"Hey... .trying to clear up some possible confusion.  When I mentioned "ready"... my purpose was to let you know I am ready to chat if you have things to share with me... ."

"Some mail has arrived at our house (intentional use of "our".  I'm going to have a coffee break at (name the place) around (name the time).  My treat and you can get your mail."


Listen... .you are getting smart on lessons... .rules and all that.  He may not respond... .(don't chase)

He may show up and be abusive... .(excuse yourself for a couple minutes to the ladies restroom)... .come back... .if he is abusive again.  Let him know you look forward to chatting when you guys can communicate properly.  (don't accuse... just say your boundary).

You never know... .it might go better... .

If you stick with "carefully crafted texts"... .remember... .less is more...

FF

Knowing my husband (remember there's a language barrier here and I've learned to communicate with him in a way that does not generally get tangled in translation), he will have a problem with the word "confusion." To him, this is an accusation that I am saying HE is confused. Also, saying, ". . . if you have some things to share with me," will likely come off to him as me looking for him to make a confession of his guilt which he does not see. By sandwiching it between small talk about being at church/not feeling well, and my expression that I want to hear him, I feel that it will help to soften it. With that new light, I might rewrite as such:

"Sorry for the delay in my answer, I was at church and I've been sick the past few days. By "ready," I meant if you ever feel that you have more to talk about with me, I want you to know that I'm available to listen.

I'll let you know when your mail arrives. I still have the other items you received and will put them together."

There. Brief. To the point. Open. Affirming. Positive. Agreeable without being desperate. I'm asking him for nothing.

I am not sure about changing the last part to "I'll let you know when your mail arrives at our house. . ." Even though I like the idea of "our," and I do use that purposefully, he is quick and he'll catch it. He'll see it as a way for me to trap him into agreeing that it's his house too, which will imply that he is responsible to help me pay the bills (he is, but I don't feel like picking that fight just yet) and it ties our marriage back together which he is so desperate to sever in order to rid himself of the shame he feels.

Coffee is not going to happen. I am absolutely positive about that. Seeing me affects him in a very deep way and he is conflicted and wants to avoid that conflict. Right now, directing our conversation as much as possible to small-talk and practical issues is probably best, keeping emotional and "relationship" talk to a minimum.

[rotiroti]

It doesn't have to be coffee, I think the reason FF suggested that is that if you do meet in person, to do that in public. Both for safety and to have an alternative if he deregulates in person.

[ptilda]

It doesn't have to be coffee, I think the reason FF suggested that is that if you do meet in person, to do that in public. Both for safety and to have an alternative if he deregulates in person.

Yeah, I realize that it was a general face-to-face meeting. The point is that he won't meet me face-to-face. There will continue to be no in-person contact with him until I see him in court. Therefore there is no concern with him deregulating in person

[formflier]

[ The point is that he won't meet me face-to-face. There will continue to be no in-person contact with him until I see him in court. Therefore there is no concern with him deregulating in person

Then... what is the harm is putting it out there... .you could be wrong.  Most likely you are not... .

I'll edit you other stuff down in a bit.

FF

[ptilda]

***LONG POST ALERT!***

So from one extreme to the other, I had resolved to deal with my relationship with h only through court and through a long process of mind games. Suddenly I get this text (not Facebook message, for some reason):

Him: ":)o you owed any cash on the credit card my name is on?"

"And have problems to pay?"

[I had perfect credit when he got here, and added him on 2 credit cards, then charged all the things he wanted and that he insisted he would pay for when he got his retirement fund... .and when everything blew up he claimed I took his "life savings" and that he had given me all this money... .but it was untrue. Anyhow, now left by myself in a place I can't afford stuck in a 2-year lease signed with him and my niece who both left. . . that's the summary]

Me: "Yes"

Him: "How much it is?"

Me: "I'm trying to have them take you off so it doesn't affect your credit. I just can't afford it."

Him: "How much it is?"

Me: [continuing about why I didn't pay because of issues with rent]

Him: "How much it is?"

Me: [explanation of amount owed and that the purchases were from when he arrived and we were in Miami visiting his family]

Him: [asking about my food situation, which is not good at the moment as I am self-employed and it's been a tough month]

[then . . .] "Pray I'm looking for a job I'll promise I'll get it paid'

[well, now that was certainly unexpected and I am seeing the old him coming back . . . the real man is an amazingly generous and thoughtful person, which is why the BPD is so shocking]

Me: [going back to my guilt tendencies] "I don't want to stress you. I'm sorry."

[bla bla bla... .explanation, boring details about why I'm broke, etc... .]

Him: "You're not stressing me I just feel sad can't help you no matter what happened between us but I promise I'll help you when time come"

[bla bla bla]

Him: "I can give you 100$ if it will help"

Me: [bla bla about my niece moving out]

Him: "[my name] you won't listen to me but that kind of work you do is good but it has to be consistent for helping you" [yeah, like I didn't know . . . haha]

Me: "Thanks, I didn't want to tell you anything"

"baby,"

"I mean [his nickname]"

Him: "why?"

Me: [bla bla bla about my situation and then I go into the information about my graduate study which was interrupted because of his BPD and he wasn't available to help me with the studies and translation as planned . . . planned at his insistence, I might add]

[pointless stuff and him accusing me of being alone because I "planned alone" (i.e. didn't listen to him) and me saying it's not true, and him insisting he's right]

Me: "[his name]"

"stop"

"please"

Him: "want to sit down with you okay but if you [want?] I can find those papers I can translate them for you"

Me: [crossing messages and telling him I spent 3 years planning my life around him, so that was pretty unfair for him to make that accusation]

Him: "then Y YOU DID ALL THAT THINGS TO ME?"

Me: [crossing messages again] " It's not the papers, baby [this time it was intentional . . . haha]. You already finished translating those. I have to have the studies done but I need someone to read the text in Kreyol. And . . . [bla bla bla]"

Him: "I don't have time too but explain I'll try" [i.e. he's sacrificing for me . . . ok, I'll take it!]

Me: [addressing the accusations of all the things I supposedly did to him] "[his name] I can't get into that. I understand that you believe I mistreated you. However I had a very different experience. What I remember is very different. And as I said, I am unable and unwilling to take more than half the responsibility."

"Our marriage is OUR marriage. Together. You and me. And I need my partner to help me move forward. I miss you every day." [I know, I know... .don't judge me for saying that]

[Then in response to his offer for help] "Thank you. I'll see if I can get things together. Can we meet somewhere to discuss it? I can get the files and try to arrange for people to come [to participate in the study]."

Him: "I'm not talking about taht cause you'll never admit anything that's you and I know. Just need to help"

Me: [continuing about the study and number of participants, etc]

Him: "No I don't want to meet you"

[bla bla about study]

Me: "I don't know how else to do this. I have to show you and explain to you. And get the equipment to you."

[more about the study]

Him: "we can try doing it by corespondent"

Me: "ok"

[study-talk]

[more study talk]

Me: [trying once more] "We could try meeting at a public place. Like restaurant or coffee shop? Just a thought. [more study talk]"

Him: "We can't meet I don't want to say why again I have to protect my life even though I want to help you"

Me: "[his nickname] That is very painful for me that you continue to say your life is in danger because of me. I could never do that to you, and I never did. But ok. I respect your needs" [again, don't judge! haha]

Him: "I don't want to discuss that I said just want to help"

Me: "Ok. Thanks."

Him: "You didn't say anything about it 100$? And do want you to know I'll always be for you not as husband you weren't ready for that"

Me: "More ready than you know. I never got a chance."

"Again. I get no more than hald the responsibility."

"And we can fix this if you will lay down your pride and admit that you did bad things too." [bold, I know, and possibly a trigger, but he's "back" and is hearing at least parts of what I'm saying . . . I needed to take the chance to be honest]

"I can use the money, but I don't want you to use it against me like you did before."

Him: " can you tell what bad things I did?"

"Ok sorry to offer"

Me: "[his name]. We've been over this"

"Will you give the money without any conditions? You won't use it against me?

Him: "There's nothing to use against you I already accepted I'm the looser"

"Anyhow I'm the one who leave his land to come here"

Me: "[his name] Please stop. I said thanks"

Him: [still on his pity-party] "Get lower than I was in my country"

Me: "And I don't want that to be for no reason." [referring to him leaving his country to come]

Him: "how can you think about that?" [don't understand what he means here]

Me: [not the truth, but I needed to bail from the conversation and give time] "Have to teach."

"We'll continue later"

Him: "Ok bye I don't think we have to continue I just wanted to help cause you said"

"bye"

Me: "Thank you again. I'll let you know when we can talk about the study."



I was testing the waters a bit to see if we were going to be able to talk. I think I can continue to build on this, but he's clearly not ready to  face reality. It opens a door, however, for an ongoing partnership where we can be cordial and help each other with things like jobs and school and stuff. That's a start.

I know I said some stuff that is going to be looked at with some tisking, but it happens. I'm new at this, and I think I handled myself ok (not well, but ok), and didn't do any long-term damage.

H was testing the waters too. He wants to be part of my life but wants me to be very clear that he has to "protect his life" from whatever threat I present... .not sure what that is, but hopefully it will come out in court or at least point us towards court ordered counseling.

I've been spending my day off (not feeling well) looking into therapists and lawyers. . .

This stuff is so time consuming! But there is some light appearing at the end of the tunnel!.

[formflier]

 

This is a  good thing... .

On the good... better ... .best scale... .  You are probably around good... maybe towards better.

Please don't worry about him facing reality... .there are are lots of responses throughout your interaction where you are "pushing back" or stating your view... .

While not horrible... .I think this could have gone better... .if many of the things he said... .accused you of... .misstated... etc etc... you left hanging out there...

ff

[ptilda]

After my invented "lesson" (about an hour and 15 minutes) I sent a quick message thanking him again and letting him know I'll keep him posted on the research once I speak with the professor. I also sent him a link for a job board so he can see that I'm trying to help him without trying to "suck him in."

Here's the resulting exchange:

Him: "Okay and remember it's not a fight I'm not going to use anything against you. If you wanted I told you do whatever you want with me as they told you to report me as Fraud cause I won't stay and live in this situation as can't go back I have nothing anymore."

"I'll always love you but we can't be together. It's a pity I see that too late to avoid the situation I'm living and painful"

"I'll help you when I can even it might work against me" [here he agrees to help]

"That's why now I accepted the fact I'm here because of you and whatever I do you're powerful I'll be anyhow the loser"

"If I had to use I'll try when I was in Haiti and sent money to you for helping as my wife" [reminding me of the very real sacrifices he made]

"I prefer to stop trying to help I'm sorry" [here he no longer is willing to help? I chose to ignore this contradiction]

Me: "There's no war here, [his name]. I know you want the best for me and I want the best for you."

"We can just do what we can do. No pressure."

"I won't ask you to give more than you feel comfortable with. I appreciate your help."

Him: "I don't have even the comfortable or affordable but it's sad hearing what I know and just wanted to help" [again playing the victim and saying I shouldn't have countered him on his accusations]

Me: "Thank you. It means a lot to me."

Him: "Welcome"


I think that's enough for the night... .probably for a couple of days at least... .

I cannot even express how much progress this is! We're so close to being recognizable as what we used to be! I just know it's a super delicate place and don't want to mess it up... .

[babyducks]

Hi ptilda,

I am really glad you feel this is progress.   That's nice to hear.

I am also encouraged to hear that you invented a 'lesson' to interrupt the conversation when it was getting emotionally reactive.   Best thing you could have done.    

The accusations of who did what to whom remains red hot between you two.   And it probably will be red hot for a while.   This is not a misunderstanding that you can clear up with better communication.   It's not misinformation that can be explained away.  

My partner and I went through a bad patch in 2013,  the emotional reactivity between us reached epic proportions.   We both got very entrenched in our own positions.   I was not very good with letting her reality be her reality.   Eventually the tension between us flashed over into violence.    If I told you what was the comment that pushed us over the edge, you would likely be baffled because it was so innocuous.   I say pushed us, because I bear responsibility in the argument also.   It takes two.   The end result was I broke my hand and required surgery and 4 pins and a titanium rod to put it back together.  I would hate to see anything like that happen to you.

Me: [addressing the accusations of all the things I supposedly did to him] "[his name] I can't get into that. I understand that you believe I mistreated you.

Good start,  I am going to tweak this a little... . Since this is the red hot potato and he has expressed the idea of leaving it alone, work with that.  how about

[i][his name] I understand you believe you I mistreated you.  It feels like a very different experience to me.

I acknowledged his feelings first.  He is in crisis right now.  He needs to be heard first.   This is about listening right now.  It won't be this way forever.  Your turn will come later.

I changed it to feels like a very different experience because it's harder to argue with ~feelings~.  The word 'however' negates the remainder of the sentence so I removed it.

What I remember is very different. And as I said, I am unable and unwilling to take more than half the responsibility."

"Our marriage is OUR marriage. Together. You and me. And I need my partner to help me move forward. I miss you every day." [I know, I know... .don't judge me for saying that]

This is tricky right here.   I agree memories differ.   I agree you ABSOLUTELY SHOULD TAKE NO MORE than half the responsibility.  Still as FF has said this is not the time to discuss it.   Not discussing it is not the same as accepting what he is saying.   Here is how I would tweak what you said.

It feels like we shouldn't get into that now, that it wouldn't be good for us.

Again I framed it as an I feel thing which is harder to argue with/about.  I put it lower down in the conversation thread so he didn't feel cut off from expressing his thoughts and I attached a little explanation so soften the comment.    

[Then in response to his offer for help] "Thank you. I'll see if I can get things together. Can we meet somewhere to discuss it? I can get the files and try to arrange for people to come [to participate in the study]."

Him: "I'm not talking about taht cause you'll never admit anything that's you and I know. Just need to help"

When he said I'm not talking about that cause... .I would have found something in that sentence to validate and said

You know you are probably right,  we should leave this topic alone for now, that's a good idea.

I would validate that because he might be trying to regulate he's own emotions and I would encourage that.

I hope you can see the subtle differences in what I tweaked in what you said.  Putting it all back together it looks like this.


I understand you believe I mistreated you.  It feels like a very different experience to me.  It feels like we shouldn't get into that now, that it wouldn't be good for us. "Our marriage is OUR marriage. Together. You and me. And I need my partner to help me move forward. I miss you every day."


as FF or someone said up stream, a lot of this is trial and error.


'ducks