Question about Abandonment and Validation

[lovers knot]

Here's something that I would be interested in hearing a discussion about, and that is this (which came to me earlier):

BPD's are afraid of being abandoned, as is obvious and well acknowledged at this point, but often times, as I've studied and learned through other peoples' stories, experiences, etc., it is the BPD that will go ahead and initiate the abandoning of their Non, because they're afraid that THEY (the pwBPD) will eventually be abandoned, so by going ahead and abandoning their friend, spouse, family member, whomever, this keeps them from having to become abandoned by them (in their minds), even if the Non has said repeatedly that they would NEVER abandon them. Is this pattern of abandonment a kind of "wish" for mere validation of their own IDEA that their Non would perhaps abandon them? If they fear abandonment, when they themselves abandon, do they somehow think that pushing away the Non will somehow get the Non to abandon them, which would therefore VALIDATE their abandonment concern/anxiety/worry? (I sound like a broken record now, but it is what it is).

If they know that the person has promised that they wouldn't abandon them, obviously one of the factors of their disorder relies on the idea of being abandoned, so they don't take these comforts from Nons to heart, because they truly believe that they will eventually be abandoned?

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[thisagain]

I agree, I think the "feelings are facts" thing also applies to manipulating the facts so the facts fit their feelings. They're afraid we'll abandon them, even though that isn't connected to reality. Most people would adjust their feelings to match reality, but the pwBPD can't do that and they have some sort of intolerable discomfort from the disconnect. So to make the facts match their feelings, they abandon us or do something egregious that they know should be a dealbreaker to try to provoke us into leaving them. And then they feel better in a weird way because the facts now reinforce their feelings (that they're alone and no one loves them, and/or that you're a jerk).

I don't think it's about validation, in the sense that you can't meet their need by validating with something like "I know you're scared I'll leave you like your dad did, that must be terrifying." It's the difference that always comes up here, of validating their feeling versus telling them they're right about the factual situation. They're looking for actual confirmation that they're right and you will abandon them.

[lovers knot]

I agree, I think the "feelings are facts" thing also applies to manipulating the facts so the facts fit their feelings. They're afraid we'll abandon them, even though that isn't connected to reality. Most people would adjust their feelings to match reality, but the pwBPD can't do that and they have some sort of intolerable discomfort from the disconnect. So to make the facts match their feelings, they abandon us or do something egregious that they know should be a dealbreaker to try to provoke us into leaving them. And then they feel better in a weird way because the facts now reinforce their feelings (that they're alone and no one loves them, and/or that you're a jerk).

I don't think it's about validation, in the sense that you can't meet their need by validating with something like "I know you're scared I'll leave you like your dad did, that must be terrifying." It's the difference that always comes up here, of validating their feeling versus telling them they're right about the factual situation. They're looking for actual confirmation that they're right and you will abandon them.

Thank you for the response! This was great, and I feel spot-on: "So to make the facts match their feelings, they abandon us or do something egregious that they know should be a dealbreaker to try to provoke us into leaving them."

I've always felt like this was indeed the case, the provoking in the hopes that it would happen, and as you went on to state, "... .because the facts now reinforce their feelings (that they're alone and no one loves them, and/or that you're a jerk)."

"They're looking for actual confirmation that they're right and you will abandon them."

Very interesting. Would you go so far to state that this is mostly always the case, though, with abandonment? because there are obviously instances where the pwBPD will use abandoning via silent treatment to deal/cope with their emotions at the time, with perhaps the intent to return later after they've "cooled off" or "settled down" etc., to the effect that they just "need space" for a time?

As most Nons are aware, the double-edged sword in this case is that when one is involved with a pwBPD that is using the silent treatment, suddenly cut you out, without a peep of "why" (which is normal--no reason, "just is", left with Sherlockian mystery, it is often difficult for the Non to discern which is which. "Am I being abandoned for good?" or "Am I being abandoned for a space of time?" In other words, the difference between "needing space" and the purely permanent abandonment "for life," or "for good" or whatever is supremely mysterious and unknowable. I suppose the usage of the silent treatment for the "acting in" pwBPD is far more conspicuous than the "acting out" pwBPD (at least as far as I've understood it), but not limited to that.

[lovers knot]

thisagain, just to add to that... .

I think part of the "torment" for me is the unknowing that comes with it all--not being able to discern between whether it's mere need for space (I once told a girl, years ago, that if she needed space, that she should go and watch Star Trek! Ha! This was non-related to any BPD situation, but it was just me being a relatively ticked off teenager at this girl at the time!), or if the abandonment is a form of "goodbye for life"-type scenarios, and what have you.

That leads me to the next question to piggyback off of this conversation:

If the Non never completely abandons the pwBPD, does this often enrage the pwBPD? "I'm provoking and doing all that I can to get them to abandon me, but they won't!" I wonder how many people have dealt with situations where they've been provoked so much to abandon, but they never do, and ... .then what?

At what point does it take a turn, if it ever takes a turn?

If the person that they want to abandon never does, do they just remain silent in the hope that the Non eventually does? and, in that case, do those with BPD like to control their distance enough to "keep the door open" (or cracked!) so that they can continue to hope that their Non eventually abandons, as if it is some type of hopeful dream? like a "wish fulfillment" in their minds that has yet to come to pass?

To be honest, I think I'd rather be punched in the face repeatedly by my pwBPD, than to be left dangling in the cold, without a peep, striving for answers (even though, I know at this point, with a broader spectrum of my understanding of those with BPD becomes more clear and illuminating to me), but I realize that this is the way that they do things, and it's a perpetual pattern that happens so many times.

It's just interesting to think about these things, to read about different scenarios and experiences from Nons, because it often helps me to become even more educated and illuminated by this complex disorder, which makes me feel even more and more compassionate.

[thisagain]

Thanks for all your great thoughts! I'm looking forward to hearing more from the experienced Nons.

If the Non never completely abandons the pwBPD, does this often enrage the pwBPD? "I'm provoking and doing all that I can to get them to abandon me, but they won't!" I wonder how many people have dealt with situations where they've been provoked so much to abandon, but they never do, and ... .then what?

I'm new to all this so I don't have a response to all your questions, but this has definitely happened in my relationship. I think it happens with pwBPD who paint themselves black. Because the more bad things they do, the facts (you not leaving) get farther and farther from their feelings (which is feeling like an evil piece of crap who you should leave). So they get even more uncomfortable. I've seen that discomfort turn into painting ME black, thinking there must be something very wrong with me since I haven't left yet.

And it's also sometimes led to her shutting down / giving the silent treatment, since what was really motivating it all was the fear of the close relationship and the vulnerability that comes with that. So if she can't ruin the closeness by driving me away, she'll ruin it by shutting me out.

We live together so I don't get the "wondering if she's leaving forever" problem. But if you're a country music person, I suggest this as some lighthearted validation: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pj5namJBZDg (sometimes it helps me to have my feelings reflected in music?)

[waverider]

It is about the power of choice.

Abandonment is someone else having the power of choice outside of the pwBPDs control to leave. It is the fear of this action that triggers anxiety... Waiting for the shoe to drop

To choose to leave someone is them keeping control and empowering.

Abandonment is not about not having someone around, it is about having no choice in the matter, and not feeling needed. Conversely a pwBPD has no problems discarding someone if they are not meeting their needs. Often adopting a burnt earth policy

Hence to leave someone is their ideal defense against being left.

[lovers knot]

Thanks for all your great thoughts! I'm looking forward to hearing more from the experienced Nons.

If the Non never completely abandons the pwBPD, does this often enrage the pwBPD? "I'm provoking and doing all that I can to get them to abandon me, but they won't!" I wonder how many people have dealt with situations where they've been provoked so much to abandon, but they never do, and ... .then what?

I'm new to all this so I don't have a response to all your questions, but this has definitely happened in my relationship. I think it happens with pwBPD who paint themselves black. Because the more bad things they do, the facts (you not leaving) get farther and farther from their feelings (which is feeling like an evil piece of crap who you should leave). So they get even more uncomfortable. I've seen that discomfort turn into painting ME black, thinking there must be something very wrong with me since I haven't left yet.

And it's also sometimes led to her shutting down / giving the silent treatment, since what was really motivating it all was the fear of the close relationship and the vulnerability that comes with that. So if she can't ruin the closeness by driving me away, she'll ruin it by shutting me out.

We live together so I don't get the "wondering if she's leaving forever" problem. But if you're a country music person, I suggest this as some lighthearted validation: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pj5namJBZDg (sometimes it helps me to have my feelings reflected in music?)

thisagain, thank you for the response--I think that we're all still learning, so everyone is sharpening iron with iron at this point, I'd like to imagine!

"The fear of the close relationship and the vulnerability that comes with that. So if she can't ruin the closeness by driving me away, she'll ruin it by shutting me out."

I find this to be very interesting, and all too familiar. With me, my dear friend who lives miles away from me, just totally backed off, built the Great Wall of China around her, and has distanced herself to complete silence ... .out of the blue! I do think that getting too close was the trigger for her, and this was actually my own error, considering at the time, I hadn't really educated myself on BPD all that much, so it wasn't until much later did I discover all of these things that "click" now.

If you're interested, here's my original thread on this site, which goes into more details:

https://bpdfamily.com/message_board/index.php?topic=281110.0

I read your long message about your own situation, and had made plans to respond, but hadn't got around to it yet, but hopefully someone has responded to you by now (I'll check in a moment and see, after I send this).

I like "old school" country music the most, although I'm not a huge fan of the genre, but I like some of it. I did listen to the song you posted, just because I'm open-minded and I did get a chuckle out of it, so thanks for that! Ha!

[lovers knot]

Abandonment is someone else having the power of choice outside of the pwBPDs control to leave. It is the fear of this action that triggers anxiety... Waiting for the shoe to drop

To choose to leave someone is them keeping control and empowering.

Abandonment is not about not having someone around, it is about having no choice in the matter, and not feeling needed. Conversely a pwBPD has no problems discarding someone if they are not meeting their needs. Often adopting a burnt earth policy

Hence to leave someone is their ideal defense against being left.

Thank you for the comment; I definitely agree! Empowerment and being in control, the power of choice "outside of the pwBPDs control to leave."

What's so interesting about my friend with BPD is that she knows that I'd never abandon her, and I have told her that I'd always be there for her, that if she needed me that she could call on me and I'd do what I could to help, and that I'll always be her friend, but in the mind of the pwBPD, I suppose there's always that fear of abandonment, so it's always "just there," regardless of what is said to them. The thing with my friend is that she knows that I needed her, as a friend, as an ear, but my suspicions is that is what drove her to push me away, because of my getting too close, or at least her suspecting my getting too close, when really, at the time that I said, "I need you," it was meant as nothing more than a "I need to talk to you," because I was believing that she could give me some advice on some personal struggles that I was going through at the time, but she may have taken it the wrong way, and saw it as, "He needs me? Oh no! He can't go without me, he can't live his life without me? I'll just push him away and let's see if he can!" ... .which was TOTALLY opposite of what I wanted at the time, which was just her friendship to listen to my issues. NOTHING ELSE. I just want to tell her that, quite badly in fact, but I don't want to "break the silence" or "break her space" that she is giving me at the time, so I'm just remaining "cool, calm and collective" until/when/if she contacts me again (I hold out hope).

I'm still learning, and these conversations really do me a lot of good!

[thisagain]

I think you're doing the right thing by leaving her alone. I know it feels like if only you could explain what you meant, then she would take down the wall. But that probably won't happen. If I say something she misunderstands and gets triggered by, I very rarely can get her to understand what I actually meant. And it's definitely not going to happen before she's shown that she's ready to talk to you.

Even if I can temporarily get it through to her, that what she heard was not what I meant, she reverts to her old interpretation when she dysregulates again. So I get yelled at over the same misunderstandings for years.

Also don't blame yourself for unknowingly talking to her as if she could deal with feelings! Most people would feel good knowing that you trusted them enough to depend on them for support and advice. It's not your fault that it scared her.

[lovers knot]

I think you're doing the right thing by leaving her alone. I know it feels like if only you could explain what you meant, then she would take down the wall. But that probably won't happen. If I say something she misunderstands and gets triggered by, I very rarely can get her to understand what I actually meant. And it's definitely not going to happen before she's shown that she's ready to talk to you.

Even if I can temporarily get it through to her, that what she heard was not what I meant, she reverts to her old interpretation when she dysregulates again. So I get yelled at over the same misunderstandings for years.

Also don't blame yourself for unknowingly talking to her as if she could deal with feelings! Most people would feel good knowing that you trusted them enough to depend on them for support and advice. It's not your fault that it scared her.

I agree with you, and thank you.

You know, it's interesting how I often find myself at times trying to crystallize or justify certain things about it all, but the one thing that really bothers me is that I do absolutely realize that she likely wouldn't take the walls down no matter what I were to say to her, but in some ways, it would make ME feel better knowing that I had at least made the attempt to "explain" that my words were likely misconstrued/misunderstood, but the shift/boundary-building had already begun long before this anyhow, so I think my continual commentary didn't help, and she just decided to paint me black/split/whatever. Had I KNOWN more about her disorder, I realize that my approach and my ways of communicating would have been so much better, but what can one do, right? It is what it is at this point. I just hold out hope that it isn't over. She hasn't deleted me from Facebook, but I've discovered that that doesn't necessarily mean anything, considering she still has an abusive/"control freak" ex-boyfriend that abandoned her in the middle of London last year still on her Facebook friends list, so that really doesn't matter.

As much as I want to write and tell her all of these things, I feel like staying "mum" is the way to go for now.

I suppose if we do talk again, I wonder if telling saying ANYTHING at all about me educating myself on her disorder would be a good idea? "I've done a lot of research since we've spoke on your disorder, and have learned a lot of things!" or, "I should have learned more about your disorder when you first told me about it; this is unlike me, and I wish I had done so sooner!" etc. is probably not a good idea? although she once told me that she wishes that certain people in her family would "do more research" and "learn about BPD"? It's just one vine, one twist, after another, that I find myself pondering and thinking over at times.

And you're right, I shouldn't blame myself for anything, as most people would, as you said, feel good knowing that I trusted them enough to depend upon them for support and advice, and that it isn't my fault that I scared her with it (although it really all began before, with my lack of knowledge in what I was truly dealing with here!--I was nearly DESTROYED and thinking how could someone go from saying all of these sweet and loving things to me one moment, and then suddenly turning a deaf ear, ignoring me, etc., and it wasn't until I began educating myself did it all come together, which has helped dramatically).

Sometimes I get this dire URGE that rises to the forefront of my existence and I just want to text, call, or if anything, write her a handwritten letter, explaining these things, that it was miscommunication, that I'm "STILL YOUR FRIEND," and want to keep it like that. Losing the connection of this dear friend is sad, not only because she knows how much I love and care about her, but because I'd like to hear her newest news, the updates with her therapy sessions, and just our wonderful conversations! I miss it, so-very much. The pain sometimes returns to overtake me at times, but I'm doing my best to remain focused.

I sound like a broken record in these messages sometimes, I realize, but I want to thank you for responding and for sending me doves of comfort. It goes a long way, as you now, and I've appreciated our correspondence since you've joined.

[ptilda]

This is a great thread! My husband tried over and over to force me to leave him. He would taunt me to leave him and send him back to Haiti. He would come say to me over and over, "even if I was dead, I would never be your man." But then when he went to Haiti he was all determined to come back and be with me again.

Now he's filed for divorce so that he can make it my fault . . . If I contest the divorce, I'm trying to control him. If I don't contest it I never cared. So I told him I will be extremely sad if he goes ahead with it but I won't fight him on his decision . . . keeping the responsibility ok his end.

So now he's reaching out. Still making accusations, but almost like he wants to give me a chance to make amends so that he can get back with me. But he continues to say that meeting me is endangering his life. I don't get that.

And the saga continues . . .