Is acceptance enough?

[valet]

Today I find myself encountering a lot of emotions: sadness, contentment, directedness, and confusion.

My pwBPD is in my life. This does not cause me anxiety at all, and not nearly the pain that it used to, but I feel myself slipping. I feel disarmed; ready to reengage on the most basic level. I want to call this love, but I've learned too much here to think of it in such simplistic terms. Yes, I have accepted who she is, but have I accepted who I am, and what I feel?

This is the central question. Is acceptance of our pwBPD enough, or do we need to take more extreme measures to fully understand, to really get what it takes to move on for ourselves and not someone else.

My instincts say 'no, of course not'. Is this reality though, or a more complex version of the emotional sandstorm that we all face in the aftermath of these types of relationships?

This could be easier, yes. The part of me that is still in denial questions that thought. It's as if I believe that I need to have a test date to actually study for the exam.

[Learning_curve74]

Hey valet, it sounds like you are questioning what it takes to stay feeling detached? Is that right? Is that your goal? Or maybe not only detached but finding yourself as well?

[valet]

Hey valet, it sounds like you are questioning what it takes to stay feeling detached? Is that right? Is that your goal? Or maybe not only detached but finding yourself as well?

Hey learning_curve, I think that you're on to something here, but the line that I'm treading on seems a bit... .thin. Friendship is the goal, but I also must have some kind of attachment to even have that kind of a relationship with anyone. I guess what I want to do is replace the insecure attachment that I have with my pwBPD with a secure one.

Is this possible? I don't know, but I want to say that it can be with more reflection and understanding of what exactly is going on right now.

Truthfully, I don't know if detachment is actually my goal. I'd by lying if I made that statement directly. So, I am confused.

She's going away for 9 months come September, so attempting to reconcile would be pointless. I still can't help but admit that I am letting myself get pulled in a bit here, and I kind of like it. The connection is still there. We are compatible in most ways, idealization phase aside. She was just different when she deregulated.

Again, confusion, but how will this be in 2 months? Probably fine. I'll probably be even more content with life than I am now.   

On finding myself: I feel great almost all of the time. I'm exploring my old interests and really being creative in my free time. I feel whole in a lot of ways; ready to embark on new challenges! I am definitely a ton more focused on doing what I need to do for myself, and it is paying off huge. I still do have those sad moments every now and again, but they aren't intense and they go away quite quickly. So I don't think that this is really about finding myself. I felt lost in the immediate aftermath of the breakup, but I don't think that I ever totally lost sight of who I was.

[fromheeltoheal]

Hey valet-

I don't care if my ex is a borderline or not, diagnosed or not, doesn't matter, what I needed to accept was that we were totally incompatible, I allowed her to treat me like sht, and I never would have gotten my wants and needs met by her, ever.  And that acceptance was the very beginning.  Really, if I'd had my head on straight, we never would have gotten past the second date, but noo, I got caught up in the emotion of things, a burning fantasy arrived between my ears, and off to the races we went.  And what does that mean 'caught up'?  You could also label it 'losing myself'.  Why did I do that?  What's going on around that?  The biggest thing as the fog cleared was the shock in myself over what I'd put up with.  WTF?  I mean really, WTF?  Sobering to say the least.

And one cool thing is we value things more when we lose them and get them back, and getting our lives back after a traumatic relationship is golden, I savor every moment; I was sitting in my back garden today just chillin', enjoying the day, and decided to be grateful for my life, which is a choice and comes easier if we say so, and it's moments like that that keep me grounded.  And once we develop the ability to stay grounded, where are we going?  What are our goals?  What do we want our lives to look like?  Who do we want to let in and who do we want to keep out?  These are hopeful questions, questions necessary in creating the life of our dreams.  What does that look like?  :)o we believe we can have it?  Are we taking steps?  It's a brand new day... .

[valet]

fromheeltoheal, I didn't start there. I just wanted to accept the end. Maybe there was no empowerment.

That's interesting. I started in 'oh well' mode, which I now can see as playing victim. I feel that I've beaten the co-dependence and enmeshment that I was in, but is that really true? Have I?

My answer: I've set boundaries; I've tried to keep a safe distance (she has surprised me in the last couple weeks with 'showing up' unexpectedly when I am with mutual friends, but when this has happened I've felt grounded and see her for what she is—the scared, anxious person that truly does lack any kind of boundaries); I've not made the same mistakes that I did at the beginning.

This isn't really an answer though. It's an avoidance of the question entirely. Can she fulfill my wants and needs? I don't know. But that doesn't sound like a good place to even start thinking about what I've been thinking about these last two days. These were the same doubts that I had the first time around. I am not paying attention to the red flags, even now that I recognize them and do not intellectually desire them. I've slipped back to not seeing her for who she is. Blind acceptance—acceptance without acknowledgement of the thing that I actually have to accept.

The thing is, I still want her as a friend.

Can these two ideas co-exist? Yes, they can, but I need to start from a different place. I need a more solid resolution.

[fromheeltoheal]

Well, I'm confused from reading your post, but that's probably because you're confused too.  I have to give you credit, the last time I saw or spoke to my ex was the day I left her, and I was completely out of my head at the time, and I don't know if I could have gotten my feet on the ground if I continued to have her in my life on some level, academic really, because she isn't welcome.

You do sound like your grounding is getting a little loose, and you didn't ask me for advice, but I'd say get some distance, get regrounded, and make some real decisions about whether she's going to be in your life and in what capacity.  Her going away for a while will help.

[BorisAcusio]

What you are experiencing in the aftermath of a break-up is also yearning, but it swings from *hope* to *uncertainty* which causes obsessive thought.  :)orothy Tennov calls this the state of "limerance." Limerance is often brought into object relations theory as an infatuation for an object.

It's really about objectification of an object and what the object can do for you- but stay with me here and let me explain:

Mirroring reenacts childhood dynamics of Mother's gaze. That's when you <<feel>> most loved as an infant. Your tiny brain is growing quickly and very plastic and trying to make sense of the feelings from Mother's gaze. Our tiny brains sort out and file the feeling away where it remains until the adult brain can recall it at a later time.

When a BPD mirrors in order to attach to us, they reactivate this coda from childhood. When the BPD goes away they take with them the catalyst for the activation- and this creates a tremendous, obsessive desire for their return. Tennov calls this being in a state of limerance with the BPD being your "limerant object."

When your limerant object goes away with someone else- you obsess over the idea that you will never feel this way again *and* you maintain a vigil of hope balanced against uncertainty. The more hope, the less uncertainty. The more uncertainty, the less hope. You can see how this might create a OCD like thought process of obsessive evaluation. One can scan for clues by checking the daily barometer of the ex-partner's new relationship which only fuels the obsession. Facebook, google, etc. etc.

Comparing oneself to the new partner: are you greater than or less than? In your mind the answer gives you either hope or uncertainty and keeps you deep in the obsessive limerance toward the return of your limerant object.

Tennov did research on the many destructive tendencies of people in limerance. It's intrusive cognitive components, the obsessional quality that may feel voluntary but yet defies control are aspects of the state of limerance. Limerance is an involuntary state- so when well meaning friends and family tell you to *get over it* and just move on - they aren't addressing how to solve the infatuation that remains like a flu.

Most people suffering from limerance agreed that they might not have put so much energy into hope for their limerant object's return if they knew success was impossible from the start- but they couldn't be made to feel any other way until they realized that Borderlines LIVE in limerant FANTASY. That fantasy world is an escape and Borderlines use it to shirk personal responsibility. Limerance expects understanding (often in the form of an apology from the limerant object.) Again, this is fantasy. Do not hold out hope for one.

Realize that limerance is involuntary. It will only fade if you let hope fizzle for your limerant object's return and place a certain boundary that stops the uncertainty. Easier said than done, but necessary if you want to heal. Cry. Kick a Can. Feel terrible.  As Tennov writes: " Recognize too, that once the gates of your limerant object's mind are closed on someone else- and against you- the hope you need to fuel your own passion must run dry. With this recognition you may end your limerance and reconstruct your life."  Hope this helps.  

[fromheeltoheal]

Nice Boris, pertinent.

It will only fade if you let hope fizzle for your limerant object's return and place a certain boundary that stops the uncertainty. Easier said than done, but necessary if you want to heal.

Going from a sliver of hope to no hope at all is a huge leap, a painful letting go, but a necessary step if we're committed to fully detaching.

[Learning_curve74]

As heal said, acceptance can mean accepting your ex was never a good choice of romantic partner. For people on the staying board, acceptance can mean understanding your pwBPD is mentally ill, may never change, so you can only change your part to hopefully keep from making things worse and possibly make things better but realizing you really only have control of your own stuff.

To be friends you can't be totally detached as having no attachments means the other person is basically a stranger you don't care about. However, you can be detached from certain expectations, as not having our expectations fulfilled is often a source of our suffering.

If you accept that she has certain limitations as a friend and can divorce yourself from certain expectations of the friendship, you could be friends if that's truly what you want. Which brings up the question of why do you want to be friends? Does she add richness to your life or detract and make your life less than it can and should be?

And secondly, do you feel that you are in a place where you are healthy enough to be friends with a former romantic partner? This can be a tough place to reach even for people who were not involved with a disordered partner. How do you plan to stay grounded and avoid reacting to drama? What happens when she wants you to hang out with her and her new beau?

[valet]

This is all very good. Thanks for the words.

Comparing oneself to the new partner: are you greater than or less than? In your mind the answer gives you either hope or uncertainty and keeps you deep in the obsessive limerance toward the return of your limerant object.

I can identify with this, but let me add a slight twist that may be delaying the ultimate boundary that ends the cycle.

My pwBPD has no new partner. She's just as single as I am. I think that is where the true uncertainty of the situation has become problematic. If this 'other' person did exist, it would be easy. I already have a strict boundary set on how I treat friends that are involved in a romantic relationship. That's theirs and I don't fudge with it.

What may be happening, is that instead of comparing myself to her new partner, I am comparing myself to her directly. There's still obviously a disparity there, however, if I can't seem to accept the 'limerant fantasy' that she lives in. This fantasy is outweighing the facts at times. It may be by just a tad, but it is.

Hence the truth in fromheeltoheal's statement:

Going from a sliver of hope to no hope at all is a huge leap, a painful letting go, but a necessary step if we're committed to fully detaching.

Which brings up the question of why do you want to be friends? Does she add richness to your life or detract and make your life less than it can and should be?

And secondly, do you feel that you are in a place where you are healthy enough to be friends with a former romantic partner? This can be a tough place to reach even for people who were not involved with a disordered partner. How do you plan to stay grounded and avoid reacting to drama? What happens when she wants you to hang out with her and her new beau?

Looking at the friendship from a grounded perspective, it does add to my life in positive ways. I've only had a good time when I've seen her. I feel engaged and listened to. We are compatible in ways that friends should be, and there's no negativity. I don't doubt that I want her as a friend. I've said this before here, and it may sound delusional, but before we were 'together' she was my best friend. Disorder or not, I wouldn't be telling the truth if I said that the underlying premise of the friendship was a lie.

Now, let me also explore the negatives actions that my feelings might bring, and their consequences. It might serve to ground me further. If, by some chance I chose to recycle the relationship, I would leave if I got the same silent treatments, unjustified rages, and periods her wandering off into states of disassociation. I want a partner who is present, reasonable, kind, and caring. Now, she is all of these things, but when she deregulates it all goes out of the window. Is that what I want? No.

The disorder would win and both her and I would lose. 

Am I healthy enough to be friends with a former romantic partner?

More yes, than no. But maybe it should be all yes and zero no.

For me, staying grounded is really a direct function of how much I am actively trying to live and enjoy my own life. When I am writing, making music, going to social events, and hanging with old friends I feel incredibly happy and grounded. I am out of the confusion and into myself. I've been swaying back and forth lately between really trying to be the person that I want to be and getting lost in thought about my pwBPD. I'd say that the ratio is about 10:1 (grounded:not grounded). When I am grounded, I have no interest in rumination or obsession. If I see her during one of these grounded periods, it's really easy to be friends with her. When I lose that footing and stop thinking about myself, however, I go tumbling down the hill.

What happens when she asks me to hang with her and her new beau?

This is likely to happen one day, so I re-phrased the question a bit. Heck, this would be easy, for the reasons that I stated above in my response to the quote that Boris posted. There would be nothing to think about on my end!

[fromheeltoheal]

What happens when she asks me to hang with her and her new beau?

Good question.  I like simple, and to me there are 3 kinds of women: the kind we want nothing to do with, the kind we want to be friends with, and the kind we want a romantic relationship with.  There's a wrinkle with a woman we used to be in a relationship with, and now are trying to be 'just friends' with; I haven't done that well in the past, there's no reason to usually, my thoughts being there's no going backwards, plus if we were friends we wouldn't have broken up.  There have been a couple of exceptions where we discovered we were better off as friends, but that's the exception.

So which category is she in valet?  And if it's the romantic one it might be a problem when there's a new beau, it would be for me.  I guess that's where you're at, figuring out who and what she is to you.

[valet]

What happens when she asks me to hang with her and her new beau?

Good question.  I like simple, and to me there are 3 kinds of women: the kind we want nothing to do with, the kind we want to be friends with, and the kind we want a romantic relationship with.  There's a wrinkle with a woman we used to be in a relationship with, and now are trying to be 'just friends' with; I haven't done that well in the past, there's no reason to usually, my thoughts being there's no going backwards, plus if we were friends we wouldn't have broken up.  There have been a couple of exceptions where we discovered we were better off as friends, but that's the exception.

So which category is she in valet?  And if it's the romantic one it might be a problem when there's a new beau, it would be for me.  I guess that's where you're at, figuring out who and what she is to you.

That's exactly where the insanity starts to creep into my head. 'What is she doing? Why does she want to see me so much? What am I doing when I constantly say yes? Who is she to me, now that things are different?'

When we were 'just friends', the relationship was so much more stable. There were no questions and I didn't care to think about them. I was completely happy with the way things were, and I didn't desire anything more. A line got crossed there when the romantic relationship began.

I'll admit this. My boundaries back then were nonexistent. I wasn't interested in being with her. She was only a friend (albeit, a very good one that I really trusted)... .and then idealization (although for me, I'm going to explicitly say that the sex was a huge part of it) sucked me into another world. I gave the relationship thing a whirl because 'heck, she's great and I might as well see how this turns out'. It got very serious. We lived together, traveled together, even moved to a different continent together. Crazy, right? Especially seeing how uncertain I was at the beginning.

I need to accept that the idealization is just what it is, a natural part of the progression of an unhealthy relationship. Maybe I want to get back to that deep down, but I already know what would eventually happen. She would deregulate, and no matter what skills I have or how I deal with it, I can't control it and I don't want it in my life, not like it 'used to' be, not with that level of intimacy. When she left, she told me that she 'couldn't love me like I loved her.' The more that I recall this, the more that I can see the obvious truth in it. She can't, not without getting the help that she needs. She knows it, but she just won't get the help.

Can I logically say that I want someone in my life at that level of intimacy that will eventually realize they can't reciprocate, AGAIN? No.

This is the critical thing, however: as far as the history of the platonic friendship is concerned, she has never behaved poorly toward me or anyone that I know, and I have never felt threatened, abused, or otherwise wronged. The friendship is not comparable to the relationship in terms of behavior.

This was probably the confusion that led me to not trusting my instincts at the time. I need to get back to those original instincts, those FOG free ones, now that I am able to see a picture bigger than the one that I was before.

This requires staying grounded, which as I have learned these past couple weeks, is pretty simple as long as I am able to recognize when I feel myself slipping. But practice makes perfect, eh?

[rotiroti]

It's a fine balance, but I've seen it done before. My ex had an orbiter who was she was friends with for 10+ years and had dated briefly during uni. The r/s didn't work out nor did it last long, but they went back being friends and have been for this entire time. I have to say he is one of the nicest people I've ever met. He's met with all of his replacements since including myself, but was unfazed and seemed happy to be her friend.

[valet]

Here is one specific memory that I think will be valuable for me to have. It might not be pertinent to the above, but I'm going to write it down anyways in hopes that it'll help me connect more dots in the future.

The night she left we saw a movie together. She was late, and I had never been so mad at her. Really, seething with anger, simply because she was a few minutes late. I wanted to walk out of the theater and never talk to her again. I felt through with things, but I was afraid of what she might do if I actually tried to get myself out of what I was in.

Of course, I had learned to be patient with her. But that patience was for the wrong reasons. I was walking on eggshells. I wasn't being patient at all, because my motivation was proving to myself that nothing was wrong with the relationship. It would sort itself out. This was a projection of my own insecurities, my own desire and belief in the perfect union, and probably my own narcissistic tendencies coming to life under the stress of the emotional abuse that I faced. 'If I can't do this, no one can. It is not up to her to fix things. It is up to me.'

She had projected this onto me as well. I was her emotional caretaker, but I didn't see it and definitely didn't accept it. I thought that I was doing everything right, but I was really doing most of it wrong. It was because of this that the bleeding never stopped. I was doing all of the 'right' things by putting the world on my shoulders (by moving mountains), but I didn't know that in order to do that I had to a.) realize my role and b.) take care of myself. She had become the center of my universe.

I sensed this disparity, and I wondered how I could change it. I spent more time with my friends, but the FOG kept me enmeshed. I worried a lot about things. I was afraid that she'd leave if I focused more on myself. Again, I was doing things only because they were what I thought I should be doing, but I didn't give myself mental freedom. I didn't give myself true 'me time', even if my actions displayed it.

This was all before she broke up with me and I discovered the disorder, and I think a big reason why I'm having these second thoughts. Now that I have some of the tools, that same narcissistic instinct appears. 'If I can't do this, no one can. It is not up to her to fix things. It is up to me.' The difference now being that I know that I can't fix her, and I know that only she can fix herself.

I am still caught up, in my estimation, on the 'If I can't do this, no one can' train of thought. It's as if all of my motivation for keeping that sliver of hope alive is solely to impress myself. It is not even about her, in that sense. It's about filling a need that I have—the need to prove to myself that I can do anything if I set my mind to it. In concrete terms, that would be living one of the relationship success stories seen here on the boards.

Any reconciliation would be on false pretenses, even if the false bits are only a small part of the whole equation. And maybe a friendship would be too. And maybe I am also thinking too much about this, and I should stop psychoanalyzing everything and react according to behaviors that I encounter.

So, it looks like I still have a lot of work to do.

[valet]

Also, on my reconciliation thoughts:

To boil it all down, it might just be my rescuer tendencies coming out.

At this point my internal voice says that my pwBPD thinks that she doesn't deserve me. That shame and guilt are what drove her away. My counter to this is, no, of course you deserve me. You deserve to be happy with someone that loves you for who you are, unconditionally.

Inherently, learning about the disorder has enabled my 'fixer' tendencies in a specific way. Even knowing the consequences of her mental illness, I can't turn my back on the idea that she should get what she deserves, which is happiness. Now, why do I make myself the lynchpin of this? Why do I need to be the one that 'controls' that? Did I put myself in this place of 'understanding' not for myself, but for her?

I need to learn how to stop this pattern. I need to learn more about myself.

[fromheeltoheal]

And maybe I am also thinking too much about this, and I should stop psychoanalyzing everything and react according to behaviors that I encounter.

Yep, my thoughts exactly, your breadth of knowledge is good though valet, you've been studying hard.

And I still like simple.  When the insanity starts to creep into your head, as you put it, you lose the ability to make rational decisions, and you've clearly got more tied up in this relationship than 'just friends'.  So when you're feeling grounded, make a real decision, put her in one of those categories, and act accordingly.  You already know what you're signing up for, and you could move over to the Staying board and learn and practice the tools those folks use, or you could remove her from your life and grieve the loss of that platonic friendship you once had, it ain't coming back, at least not right now.  I see an attempted 'friendship' as just taking you to that insanity place, but that's just me.  I think it's good that she's leaving for a while, the way you feel will probably change in her absence.

[valet]

The problem is that I don't really know how to do that at this point.

Maybe I need to have a conversation with her. A friendship isn't just about me. If there is no communication going on and only pleasantries being exchanged, it might be best to ground myself once and for all instead of this constant speculation.

So, yes or no?

I guess I should sleep on it.

[fromheeltoheal]

A friendship isn't just about me.

True, and this one isn't just a friendship, yes?  If you're not getting your needs met in whatever version of a relationship you have, you can't be much of a friend anyway, not a true one, and the relationship may look like two people trading superficial non-communications with each other, but that won't be enough for either of you, yes?

Anyway, yes, sleep, talk to you tomorrow... .

[valet]

Yes, it is time to start to figure out what my needs are in the different kinds of relationships you mentioned earlier. I think everything will be a whole lot clearer when I do.

But... .where to start?