Recognizing and dealing with our own unhealthy behaviors and coping mechanisms

[Depression = 72% of members]

Hi everyone

When you have lived for a long time in an environment in which you've had to deal with BPD individuals, this can really take its toll on you. This is so for children raised by BPD parents, but also for people who grew up with BPD siblings and people who have for a long time been dealing with BPD in-laws, partners or children.

After long-term exposure to the behaviors of the BPD people around you, it is possible that you yourself have copied some of these behaviors. This doesn't (necessarily) have to mean that you too have BPD, but what it often does mean is that you've learned certain unhealthy BPD behaviors from the people with BPD in your life. Another thing that can happen as a result of the BPD environment you live(d) in, is that you develop certain coping mechanisms that might serve you well while in that particular environment, but maybe not so well one's your in another environment (i.e. when you're out of the house, when you're at work, in your adult life, in your relationships etc.).

To me the important thing is that we are able to identify and acknowledge these learned unhealthy behaviors and developed coping mechanisms and then try to work on how best to manage them and if possible replace them with more healthy behaviors and more constructive coping mechanisms.

I think it would be interesting to explore this subject further. Here are some questions that I believe can be helpful on this journey of self-discovery and healing:

1. When you look at yourself and your life to this point, are you able to identify any learned unhealthy behaviors or any coping mechanisms that might not serve you so well anymore? If you can, what behaviors or coping mechanisms can you identify?

2. At what point did you start to realize that some of your own behaviors or coping mechanisms are/were perhaps less than healthy and constructive? Did anything happen in particular that caused you to notice these things in yourself?

3. Have you found ways to deal with and possibly overcome these learned unhealthy behaviors or developed coping mechanisms? And if you have, how were you able to do this?

Looking at ourselves like this can be confronting, it isn't always easy to admit that we ourselves sometimes exhibit BPD or BPD-like traits or otherwise problematic behaviors. The most important thing I think is that we are able to take an honest yet compassionate look at ourselves, try to identify the areas that might need some more work and healing and then try to start this healing process.

I hope this thread can be of some help

[Kwamina]

Hi everyone

When you have lived for a long time in an environment in which you've had to deal with BPD individuals, this can really take its toll on you. This is so for children raised by BPD parents, but also for people who grew up with BPD siblings and people who have for a long time been dealing with BPD in-laws, partners or children.

After long-term exposure to the behaviors of the BPD people around you, it is possible that you yourself have copied some of these behaviors. This doesn't (necessarily) have to mean that you too have BPD, but what it often does mean is that you've learned certain unhealthy BPD behaviors from the people with BPD in your life. Another thing that can happen as a result of the BPD environment you live(d) in, is that you develop certain coping mechanisms that might serve you well while in that particular environment, but maybe not so well one's your in another environment (i.e. when you're out of the house, when you're at work, in your adult life, in your relationships etc.).

To me the important thing is that we are able to identify and acknowledge these learned unhealthy behaviors and developed coping mechanisms and then try to work on how best to manage them and if possible replace them with more healthy behaviors and more constructive coping mechanisms.

I think it would be interesting to explore this subject further. Here are some questions that I believe can be helpful on this journey of self-discovery and healing:

1. When you look at yourself and your life to this point, are you able to identify any learned unhealthy behaviors or any coping mechanisms that might not serve you so well anymore? If you can, what behaviors or coping mechanisms can you identify?

2. At what point did you start to realize that some of your own behaviors or coping mechanisms are/were perhaps less than healthy and constructive? Did anything happen in particular that caused you to notice these things in yourself?

3. Have you found ways to deal with and possibly overcome these learned unhealthy behaviors or developed coping mechanisms? And if you have, how were you able to do this?

Looking at ourselves like this can be confronting, it isn't always easy to admit that we ourselves sometimes exhibit BPD or BPD-like traits or otherwise problematic behaviors. The most important thing I think is that we are able to take an honest yet compassionate look at ourselves, try to identify the areas that might need some more work and healing and then try to start this healing process.

I hope this thread can be of some help

[Leaving]

Hello Kwamina

Self examination is always a good thing because it helps us grow and make progress in our life.  I started to respond to your questions earlier today until I realized that my mind was filling up very quickly and that I needed more time to organize my thoughts.  As you know, being raised by a disordered parent leads to a lot of confusing behaviors in everyone- especially children- and it takes time to sort out which parts of us are authentic and which parts are conditioned responses.  Anyway, I just wanted you to know that I'm giving your post thoughtful consideration and will respond in more depth when I have organized my thoughts.

I look forward to hearing from other members as well. 

Take Care 

[Harri]

Hi Kwamina!  :)o you want my whole list of BPD-ish behaviors and poor coping skills or just the top 10?    

1. When you look at yourself and your life to this point, are you able to identify any learned unhealthy behaviors or any coping mechanisms that might not serve you so well anymore? If you can, what behaviors or coping mechanisms can you identify?

Currently, my most damaging coping behavior is binge eating.  It serves a few functions for me including isolating me from others, self-harm, and numbing of my emotions.  

2. At what point did you start to realize that some of your own behaviors or coping mechanisms are/were perhaps less than healthy and constructive? Did anything happen in particular that caused you to notice these things in yourself?

I have always known the eating is an issue for me and I know why I do it.  But knowing the whys of it all has not helped me to stop.  I am currently in a do or die position with this and no that is not an exaggeration.  My other health issues are making it critical for me to work on this now.  

3. Have you found ways to deal with and possibly overcome these learned unhealthy behaviors or developed coping mechanisms? And if you have, how were you able to do this?

I have not figured this out for the binge eating.  I am just in the first steps of coming out of the closet.  I am admitting it here and I told my doctor last week that my binge eating is more of a self harming behavior for me that will not be an easy fix with just a diet.  

It is a form of slow and torturous suicide for me.  

At the beginning of this post, I joked about how many behaviors to list, but I was/am not kidding.  The way I allow others to treat me, mock me, lie to me, etc and actively ignore it so that I do not become the aggressor by confronting them is a huge issue for me.  My one 'friendship' that I have had for 15 years is in serious danger because I have allowed this sort of stuff to pass for years to the point where it is clear she sees herself as emotionally healthy and right (she is not) compared to me.  She has little self awareness and seems to think I do as well.  She seems to think I do not notice her smirking behind her hands, rolling her eyes when she thinks I can't see and taking pot shots where she will say something in a passive aggressive way but do it in such a way that if I confront her, I am in the position of being the one with the dysfunctional childhood who is being manipulative and has trouble expressing her anger.  These things she does are not isolated one-offs.  All this for simply allowing myself to be me in her presence.  Nope, i do not go on and on about my health issues or whine or anything like that.  I just annoy her and I have accepted it for years.  The friendship started about 9 years ago (I knew her for a few years before that but we were not friends so I have know her for about 15 years total) when I first got sick and doctors were telling me to get my affairs in order and crap like that (the predictions for my demise were grossly exaggerated at the time).  She stepped up and offered to be my support.  I confused that with friendship because she has stuck with me all this time later.  I have been struggling with this for a few months now.  Realizing that what I thought was real was an illusion was simply a reflection of my own desperation to feel liked and accepted.  I generated the illusion.

The fact is, she is not my friend.  I am her charity project.  I am torn because I can see things in her that annoy me and bother me and I just accept them as her being her.  I thought that is what friends are supposed to do.  She is not the only one I have done this with... .making myself small so the other person can still feel good.  Tolerating really crappy behavior because the other person does not have self-awareness and I do not want them to feel less than for simply being their self.

I don't know how to handle this sort of thing.  

Okay.  That part above is a mess but it is a pretty accurate reflection of where I am in my head with it all.  It's the first time I have actually written all of this down too.  

Sorry for the rant... .but I am going to leave it here anyway!  

[Deb]

1. When you look at yourself and your life to this point, are you able to identify any learned unhealthy behaviors or any coping mechanisms that might not serve you so well anymore? If you can, what behaviors or coping mechanisms can you identify?

Sometimes yes, sometimes no. It is getting easier to spt unhealthy coping measures, the longer I work on myself. Some of those things are procrastination and trying to hide from bad things, and not being able to stand up for myself.

2. At what point did you start to realize that some of your own behaviors or coping mechanisms are/were perhaps less than healthy and constructive? Did anything happen in particular that caused you to notice these things in yourself?

It's been going on little by little. Kind of like peeling an onion. For most things, it was not anything in particular, I would just catch myself doing something and think "Wht did I do that?"

3. Have you found ways to deal with and possibly overcome these learned unhealthy behaviors or developed coping mechanisms? And if you have, how were you able to do this?

Well, I have belonged to a 12 step program for many years, which urges self reflection and self re-evaluation, along with meditation etc. I have tried to apply those principals when I recognize an unhealthy behavior or coping mechanism.

[Turkish]

Ok, Parrot, I'll bite, or at least gnaw... .

1. When you look at yourself and your life to this point, are you able to identify any learned unhealthy behaviors or any coping mechanisms that might not serve you so well anymore? If you can, what behaviors or coping mechanisms can you identify?

Oh yes. I'm a darn Hermit like my mom (I don't think a waif though). So many people say, "so are you dating yet? You deserve someone special," etc... .when my thought is to get through the next 15 years co pareting with my uBPDx, selling the house and moving to Montana or Idaho on 40 acres abutted by government land; my cabin, and a wolf hybrid for company. I'm only middle-aged, but feel like I can't do this again. Wisemind tells me can't is actually won't. Part of me hates that I've just described my BPD mom, a literal Hermit in the Woods.

2. At what point did you start to realize that some of your own behaviors or coping mechanisms are/were perhaps less than healthy and constructive? Did anything happen in particular that caused you to notice these things in yourself?

Before I met my Ex. I was in my mid 30s and had had enough of being a hermit. I actively looked for a wife. One false start (with a younger woman who may have had issues. Hmm.), and I rebuffed the attentions of an older waif co-worker who was going through a divorce, patted myself on the back for being enlightened and strong, then found my younger uBPD Waif and got stupid again.

I think what caused me to notice my dysfunctional traits was ennui. I realized I was tired of being the same, and in some ways, squandered my 20s and most of my 30s. I probably wasn't GAD, but something sub-clinical to that.

3. Have you found ways to deal with and possibly overcome these learned unhealthy behaviors or developed coping mechanisms? And if you have, how were you able to do this?

Sheer Wolfish will? Disgust that I feel that I wasted over a decade of my life doing nothing to improve myself or heal other than physical and emotional distance from my origins? My youth was, perhaps, wasted on the Young Turkish. That aphorism is true.

Despite a 6 year "experiment" of me stepping outside of the box, I've kind of slouched towards the same dysfunctional coping mechanisms. The difference this time is that I'm not uncomfortable with it, and I'm not as bothered by Thoreau. If I am comfortable living out my life in quiet desperation, who is he to judge (he's long dead anyway)? What bothers me is that I'm not really bothered by it. Ok. I am a little. Where do I go from here? Do I need to go anywhere? Or am I sufficient, existing? Surving, yet not thriving?

[Kwamina]

Hi Leaving and Harri

I started to respond to your questions earlier today until I realized that my mind was filling up very quickly and that I needed more time to organize my thoughts.

That's ok, just take your time.

 As you know, being raised by a disordered parent leads to a lot of confusing behaviors in everyone- especially children- and it takes time to sort out which parts of us are authentic and which parts are conditioned responses.

What you say here is tremendously insightful. I didn't even think of this when I started this thread but you're right, this also has to do with trying to separate the 'real' you from the 'conditioned' you. And also separating the real you from the person you had to be to survive and also from the 'projection' or 'illusion' of who you were made out to be.

Hi Kwamina!  :)o you want my whole list of BPD-ish behaviors and poor coping skills or just the top 10?  

For now let's just start with the top 10

Currently, my most damaging coping behavior is binge eating.  It serves a few functions for me including isolating me from others, self-harm, and numbing of my emotions.  

... .

It is a form of slow and torturous suicide for me.  

Thanks for your honesty Harri and sharing this with us. I got some more questions for you:

When did you start binge eating? Can you identify the thoughts that go through your mind right before, during and after binge eating?

What do you think would happen if you stopped binge eating? How does the thought of not binge eating make you feel?

Tolerating really crappy behavior because the other person does not have self-awareness and I do not want them to feel less than for simply being their self.

Do you think this is the main reason you allow this behavior? I can see how this could be related to a childhood in which you were not allowed to stand up for yourself and basically forced to accept the abusive behavior of a BPD parent. Do you think this behavior could stem from that? I for instance wasn't allowed to express anger at my mother as a child while at the same time was expected to just accept all of her anger directed at me.

Often children of BPD parents also internalize the negative message from their BPD parents that they are no good and deserve to be treated poorly. Was this perhaps also a message you got from your mother and if you did, do you believe this might also be a cause of why you let this particular 'friend' and also others treat you this way?

Sometimes identifying the root cause of why we do a certain behavior can help us modify that behavior.

Now to Deb and Turkish!

[Kwamina]

Hi Deb and Turkish

Thanks for your responses!

Some of those things are procrastination and trying to hide from bad things, and not being able to stand up for myself.

Got some more questions for you too! Why do you think it is you do/did these things? What goes through your mind when you procrastinate and/or try to hide from bad things? Do you believe you have the right to assert yourself?

Well, I have belonged to a 12 step program for many years, which urges self reflection and self re-evaluation, along with meditation etc. I have tried to apply those principals when I recognize an unhealthy behavior or coping mechanism.

I am glad you have found ways to recognize and deal with unhealthy behaviors and coping mechanisms. Sound like you've been doing a lot of working on you and have made a lot of progress

Oh yes. I'm a darn Hermit like my mom (I don't think a waif though).

... .

Part of me hates that I've just described my BPD mom, a literal Hermit in the Woods.

... .

... .then found my younger uBPD Waif and got stupid again.

... .

and in some ways, squandered my 20s and most of my 30s.

... .

Disgust that I feel that I wasted over a decade of my life doing nothing to improve myself or heal other than physical and emotional distance from my origins?

Thank you too for your honesty Turkish. I notice that you seem to judge and label yourself quit harshly, would you say that is an accurate assessment? And if you do, why do you think you talk this way about yourself?

If I am comfortable living out my life in quiet desperation, who is he to judge (he's long dead anyway)? What bothers me is that I'm not really bothered by it. Ok. I am a little. Where do I go from here? Do I need to go anywhere? Or am I sufficient, existing? Surving, yet not thriving?

A lot has changed in your life, you also have kids now and in spite of everything have always shown your commitment to being there for your mother. Also the way you co-parent is quite commendable in my view. You are a very important and stable factor in the life of many people in your personal life. Could it perhaps be that because you have all these new elements in your life, that you feel more comfortable about where you're at now?

[Deb]

Got some more questions for you too! Why do you think it is you do/did these things? What goes through your mind when you procrastinate and/or try to hide from bad things? Do you believe you have the right to assert yourself?

Kwamina,

I have come to the belief that my procrastination, hiding and not standing up for myself are rooted in the same thing: fear

When I was growing up, my dBPD sister would verbally or physically attack me and I was terrified. She was older and bigger. She would also lie so convincingly that I was the one punished. Now, when I feel  under attack or scared, I freeze.  I am working on that. Deep breathing helps. At some point in my childhood, I just came to a point where when she was attacking, I would freeze and just take it. Except one time. That time, she attempted to break my new record and I fought back. She found out that I was as big as her and could hit back. This was when I was in 7th grade. That stopped her hitting, but not the verbal assaults.

I have come to a place, where I can accept criticism and not feel that it is an assault. I am also NC with my sister, her choice, and when people tell me the lies she still spreads about me, I don't get upset. Usually, I roll my eyes and say "Whatever... ." I don't even try to rebut them anymore.

[Pina colada]

The hardest part for me is wanting to get back at dBPD sister for all the abusive and hurtful things she has done to me and our family.  My logical mind knows how counter productive this is but sometimes she is able to trigger something in me as she did when we were young kids.  I would say I can be the bigger person most of the times but sometimes she just steps way over everyone's boundaries and I want to lash out at her.  Lately, and I do mean in this last month I have been very conscious and focused and careful with my choices because i can't control her, only myself.  I am into fitness and running and for the most part I have been leaning on that as my "drug" of choice, and it does help.  I am also blessed with great friends, job, my family members and i are close and i have met more family I never knew I had!  SO helps too.  For me exercise and hints from folks on this sight have helped!

[Harri]

Hi Kwamina!

When did you start binge eating? Can you identify the thoughts that go through your mind right before, during and after binge eating?

I am not sure when it started.  It seems to have always been there as a way of coping with my emotions.  Food was a comforter for my mother, so of course she used it to comfort me as well.  I know the binging, or maybe it should be called 'sneaky' eating, was around when I was 8 or so and continued.  I am certain because when I got caught, which I usually did, as punishment, my mother would force me to eat a certain amount of food every day even to the point of my being sick.  She would buy bags of candy that I would have to eat in a day.  I was not allowed to not finish it and I was not allowed to share.  So if my brother wanted some or the neighborhood kids came over and saw it, she would explain that it was mine and I was not sharing it. 

Heh, so food served as a comfort, a punishment and a form of humiliation and shame. 

(New totally unrelated insight (!):  I have always been confused as to why the neighborhood kids used to love hanging at my house and talking with my mother.  She painted them white and compared my brother and I to them and of course, always found us lacking.  They thought my mother was cool, understanding and caring... .and to them, she was.  Ahhh, the clouds have parted and the sun is finally shining on this which has puzzled me since forever!  )

So I can see where I comfort and punish me still.  When I am feeling particularly overwhelmed and when my self-esteem is at all time lows, I eat.  It also kicks in when the shame is high... .punishing me for being me and still expecting me to be what i consider 'normal'.  That, though, is a whole nother thread!  I don't want to monopolize or divert this thread into Harriville anymore than I already have.

What do you think would happen if you stopped binge eating? How does the thought of not binge eating make you feel?

I'm not sure to be honest.  At this point, I do not have a healthy mindset about this and therefore I do not always make the healthy choice when I recognize that I am about to binge or when I have already started and choose to continue anyway.  The lamest things go through my mind:  who cares?  whats the point of getting healthy when I've lost so much living time already?  blah, blah, blah, whine, whine, whine.  Again, probably grounds for another thread that taps into the ongoing grieving process and the emerging "I am worth more than what I am allowing myself" mindset that are at war with my shame based belief system.

As for how the thought of not binge eating makes me feel?  Right now at this moment in time with this particular mindset and clarity, it is the most appealing, most desirable and freeing thing ever.  No panic, no dissociation by numbing and checking out... .until I think of life after I stop binging.  49 and starting to learn how to live in the real world?  So much shame.  I feel overwhelmed.  Allow people to be close to me?  I freeze.  Open myself up to more hurt and pain?  Gimme some food... .NOW       Swedish fish, pizza and Arrrrrgh! 

Harri: Tolerating really crappy behavior because the other person does not have self-awareness and I do not want them to feel less than for simply being their self.

Kwamina: Do you think this is the main reason you allow this behavior? I can see how this could be related to a childhood in which you were not allowed to stand up for yourself and basically forced to accept the abusive behavior of a BPD parent. Do you think this behavior could stem from that? I for instance wasn't allowed to express anger at my mother as a child while at the same time was expected to just accept all of her anger directed at me.

Again, I am not sure.  It could be because i was not allowed to stand up for myself and was often punished for my thoughts and feelings, not just my actions.  I think part of it too is being so aware of how crappy it is to not be accepted and to be mocked and ridiculed that I do not want to return it.  Another part of it seems to be that it is another source of shame that I can use against myself.  A feeling that I am so messed up I should be grateful that she is willing to be around me and tolerate me and of course I am going to annoy people... .  yeah.  That all coupled with and at war with not wanting to hurt people and not being sure of how to call her on this without coming off as aggressive.  There is a definite "I am normal and you are damaged goods Harri" dynamic to the whole relationship. 

Sorry, have to go to an appointment but this is the third time I tried to post a reply and I do not want to lose this.  Heh, heh.  I am quite sure there is some avoidance and self-sabotaging going on there!  Damn I'm good!   

[Kwamina]

Hi Pina colada

The hardest part for me is wanting to get back at dBPD sister for all the abusive and hurtful things she has done to me and our family.  My logical mind knows how counter productive this is but sometimes she is able to trigger something in me as she did when we were young kids.  I would say I can be the bigger person most of the times but sometimes she just steps way over everyone's boundaries and I want to lash out at her. Lately, and I do mean in this last month I have been very conscious and focused and careful with my choices because i can't control her, only myself.

Getting passed and letting go of past abuse indeed isn't easy. Unfortunately we can't change our past and we can't change other people if they themselves don't want to change. What we can do is focus on the present and our own behavior which we can control. Based on what you say here it seems that's exactly what you've been doing this last month

Knowing your triggers and recognizing when you get triggered is already a very important step towards a more productive way of dealing with things. If you haven't already, I suggest you take a look at the following two articles:

Ending the Cycle of Conflict

Triggering and Mindfulness and Wise Mind

I am into fitness and running and for the most part I have been leaning on that as my "drug" of choice, and it does help.  I am also blessed with great friends, job, my family members and i are close and i have met more family I never knew I had!  SO helps too.  For me exercise and hints from folks on this sight have helped!

I am glad exercise is something that makes you feel better, it greatly helps me too!

Sounds like you have a solid support network in real life which is something that can really make a positive difference. Also great to hear that you have benefited from this site

[claudiaduffy]

The fact is, she is not my friend.  I am her charity project.  I am torn because I can see things in her that annoy me and bother me and I just accept them as her being her.  I thought that is what friends are supposed to do.  She is not the only one I have done this with... .making myself small so the other person can still feel good.  Tolerating really crappy behavior because the other person does not have self-awareness and I do not want them to feel less than for simply being their self.

Harri, I am literally standing and applauding you. I mean, actually literally, here in my dining room. =) You are speaking truth loudly to yourself here, and I'm so glad you're speaking it to us, too. Even though you don't know where to head from here with this realization, it seems to me a profoundly healthy step in a good direction. Take courage and see where it will take you!

[Leaving]

Hi Everyone  

I've been contemplating Kwamina's original questions for some time.  It was a bit challenging for me to answer them right away because as I remembered some of my unsavory behaviors, I had to really step back in those events and examine what why I was behaving as I was.  

My mother created a lot of confusion in my life.  She was always providing double speak- opposing messages and it's no wonder I was so confused.  On one hand I was conditioned to be very responsible, self reliant and live with integrity and always do the right thing and on the other hand, I received suggestions that were so destructive.  She never taught me to think long term regarding relationships.  She was all about instant gratification which included sex so, anytime a male showed me any attention, she would tell me that he loved me and then she would tell me all sorts of things about sex like how to treat a man, etc...   I knew in my logical mind and heart that this didn't seem right but I feared being wrong and making a mistake by not heeding her advice.  It's all so disgusting to me.  She told me to never give a man sex for free and to charge them in some way whether it was money or goods or services.  If that wasn't bad enough she would reinforce her philosophy with comments that would indicate that I was somehow damaged because of my absent father and therefore unable to recognize when a man really loved me.  When did I notice something was wrong with her teaching and my behavior?  I noticed right away- every time I had sex I felt horribly violated and I felt sick to my stomach that I had compromised my self worth. Every time that I worked hard to achieve anything I ultimately believed that I only got where I was because some man loved me and that I was worthless, otherwise. She also hated it when I had female friends and would often accuse me of being a lesbian. She thought it was filthy for me to spend the night with another woman.  

My mother claimed to be a feminist which was very confusing for me because she relied on men, friends and her parents to do everything for her whether it was buy her things, pay her bills, take care of her children.  She told me to be independent and that I never needed a man for anything - not even to have a child but her actions were the complete opposite.  She never encouraged me in my education or my  jobs which really caused a lot of problems for me in my late twenties.  I worked hard but anytime I earned a promotion or a raise she would tell me that my boss or supervisor must care a lot about me to give me such a thing which again, just reinforced being a sexual or love object.  She told me to go to college but never helped me get there.  After HS graduation, I was so lost and alone that I called my HS guidance counselor for help.  I had moved several hours away but my counselor drove down and spent a weekend with me helping me visit colleges, fill out applications, etc...  My belief system about such things was that I could pursue those avenues in my life but ultimately, I was just like my mother,  a free spirit that wasn't college material, wasn't an intellectual who enjoyed academia, didn't enjoy structure, etc...  So, those thoughts ran through my mind all the time... " I'm just like mom, this really isn't for me, I'll never succeed... ."   It wasn't until after my first marriage that I began to experience a lot of physical anxiety due to the confusion.  She would call me every day and tell me that it was awful that I was working so hard and supporting my ' forever student' husband who was in grad school.  She told me to divorce him and come home, she started sending me psychotropic meds and told me to take them. We hadn't been married a year.   She told me I wasn't the type of woman to be a professor's wife and that I was better than that.  I basically had a nervous breakdown one day at work and I didn't have a clue why. I didn't realize then that accolades or compliments regarding my work were triggers that caused me such discomfort that I had to do something awful to cope... .get drunk, have sex.  I had no idea what my mother had done to me all my life- not really.  I mean, I knew that she made me feel uncomfortable and I felt very obligated to her and feared her but it just all seemed 'normal' to me at that time.  It wasn't until I made NC for the first time two years after I got married that I began to realize that I felt 'better' even though I was crashing and burning emotionally.  I remember the first time I made NC with her.  My husband and I were preparing to move back to this area and I was looking for a job.  Our friend and my coworker, a male, lived in this area and he offered to let me use his apt as an office and motel when I came for interviews.  So, that is what I did.  Well, I was talking to her one day after an interview and I told her where I was staying and she blew up at me in a rage, called me a whore, said I was negligent to leave my husband and dog alone and more.  That's when it really struck me that she was beyond insane and I was furious with her. She always had to have the last word and she was always hanging up on people including her own children. She hung up on me that day.  In the past, I would always call her back but not that time. I was completely disgusted with her.  She was the one who suggested that I seduce my friend because he had done so many nice things for me like promote me at work, etc... .( which I didn't do). Then, he loans me his apt. and she calls me a whore?  Anyway, she hung up on me and I immediately felt immense relief in that disconnect and I think I even imagined never speaking to her again and I felt relief in that as well!  I found this to be very bizarre and I wondered why I enjoyed being severed from my mother since it was such a terrible thing.  That was truly the beginning of my self discovery and healing.

I want to say too that during my youthful years, I had a few amazing friends and my first husband  and even brief acquaintances who saw the true me through the N's facade and they tried to champion that part of me but I just didn't  trust in her.   I remember people telling me at times that they thought I wasn't on the right path or that I was doing something that wasn't true to my nature.  I had friends who were very concerned that I was self destructing at times.  I had friends who recognized something odd about my ' best friend' relationship with my mother.  But, again, until I could see the true me like they did,  I couldn't believe in myself.  I had zero self worth and only cared about others, never for myself.

It took me about 15 years after that to solve the mystery about my mother and become who I am today.  It was not easy, it was hell. I lost many things and wonderful relationships including my wonderful marriage.   But, the more time I spent independent of her, the more my true self began to emerge.  I was truly being born. When I look back, I don't  feel connected to the woman that I was then.  I don't recognize her in any part of me today because in truth, she wasn't me at all.  How sad.  She was my mother.  I guess I feel like I was trapped all those years in her body.  I'm no longer confused. I no longer hear her voice in my head.  I see clearly the very distinct differences between my  mother and I.  

I've come a long way in the past 20 years but I have literally had to play catch up ( lost 30+ years) and I have so much more to do before I am completely free.  One thing is that I need to get a divorce from a man that is my mother's NBPD twin.  Yuk.  I've run out of tolerance for abuse and he's just one big fat reminder of everything I don't like about some people ( like my mother and other narcissists).  Thank goodness I have a natural affinity to seek solutions because I really don't know what else keeps me going besides my Faith.  It's really crazy how the more I suffer, the stronger and more determined I become.  What I mean is that through each thing I manage to endure and survive, I feel so much more confident in my own abilities.  Since April, I've discovered that I have a chronic stress-related autoimmune disease that is destroying the collagen in my body which is affecting my eyes and my teeth/gums.  I've had 4 surgeries  since July and I am truly amazed at how well I've done!  I've had to rely on public transportation/taxis, I hired a healthcare assistant for a day to help me during the worst of it but otherwise, I'm doing fairly well. Oh and during all that my husband totaled the front end of my car. No doubt, another one of his passive aggressive attempts to keep me from getting medical care.  So, I was without transportation for several weeks but still managed.  He wasn't happy when the taxi arrived to take me to the doctors!   One day I thought, ' Wow, look at what I've been through all on my own with no friends, no family.  I am strong, I am courageous, I CAN make it on my own. I may be behind the curve but I'm not worthless. I have a lot to offer.  I have the strength to endure the divorce, to endure starting a new job, I'll be fine!"   Then I go to Youtube and watch the beginning song to the Mary Tyler Moore Show... .hahahhaha

[TheRealJongoBong]

1. When you look at yourself and your life to this point, are you able to identify any learned unhealthy behaviors or any coping mechanisms that might not serve you so well anymore? If you can, what behaviors or coping mechanisms can you identify?

2. At what point did you start to realize that some of your own behaviors or coping mechanisms are/were perhaps less than healthy and constructive? Did anything happen in particular that caused you to notice these things in yourself?

3. Have you found ways to deal with and possibly overcome these learned unhealthy behaviors or developed coping mechanisms? And if you have, how were you able to do this?

I'll give this a shot. The main coping mechanisms I've always had is avoidance and vanishing into the herd. I was the smallest kid in a family of 5 kids with a narcissistic father and a mother who only wanted to be around good behavior. This combination taught me to pretend I was someone else instead of my true self and avoid any situation that might cause upsets. Initially these behaviors would help me in my relationship with my pwBPD. She wants to run the show? Fine, I'll just follow the herd like I always did. She wants to control me? Fine, I won't show my true self and it will be safer that way. She wants to tell me I'm stupid? Fine, if I just agree so I can avoid an argument.

These behaviors worked (maybe), but they also turned me into a victim and crushed my self esteem. They only reinforced my partner's behavior and made things worse. They made me think I was the crazy one, the bad one in the relationship.

The BPD relationship was a driver for me to understand all this. When I was in the depths of her madness, getting tossed around like a ship in a storm, it made me start to think. It made me realize that all the crazy was not just coming from outside, that I was also driving it. She forced me into therapy with herself several times because I was the "crazy" one. I learned a lot about myself there, and how the judgements I made on myself as a kid ware still affecting me today. I learned that I was trying to get the love my mother never gave me from my partner, and I realized how impossibly wrong that was.

It's kind of funny. It was my partner pushing all my buttons that showed me what my buttons are. It was my partner who made me go to therapy to realize how all my buttons are connected. I've changed a lot through her attention, and I've learned a lot about myself so that I don't buy into the BS anymore. I'm actually starting to feel good about myself. But she's the same as ever.

[Leaving]

1. When you look at yourself and your life to this point, are you able to identify any learned unhealthy behaviors or any coping mechanisms that might not serve you so well anymore? If you can, what behaviors or coping mechanisms can you identify?

2. At what point did you start to realize that some of your own behaviors or coping mechanisms are/were perhaps less than healthy and constructive? Did anything happen in particular that caused you to notice these things in yourself?

3. Have you found ways to deal with and possibly overcome these learned unhealthy behaviors or developed coping mechanisms? And if you have, how were you able to do this?

I'll give this a shot. The main coping mechanisms I've always had is avoidance and vanishing into the herd. I was the smallest kid in a family of 5 kids with a narcissistic father and a mother who only wanted to be around good behavior. This combination taught me to pretend I was someone else instead of my true self and avoid any situation that might cause upsets. Initially these behaviors would help me in my relationship with my pwBPD. She wants to run the show? Fine, I'll just follow the herd like I always did. She wants to control me? Fine, I won't show my true self and it will be safer that way. She wants to tell me I'm stupid? Fine, if I just agree so I can avoid an argument.

These behaviors worked (maybe), but they also turned me into a victim and crushed my self esteem. They only reinforced my partner's behavior and made things worse. They made me think I was the crazy one, the bad one in the relationship.

The BPD relationship was a driver for me to understand all this. When I was in the depths of her madness, getting tossed around like a ship in a storm, it made me start to think. It made me realize that all the crazy was not just coming from outside, that I was also driving it. She forced me into therapy with herself several times because I was the "crazy" one. I learned a lot about myself there, and how the judgements I made on myself as a kid ware still affecting me today. I learned that I was trying to get the love my mother never gave me from my partner, and I realized how impossibly wrong that was.

It's kind of funny. It was my partner pushing all my buttons that showed me what my buttons are. It was my partner who made me go to therapy to realize how all my buttons are connected. I've changed a lot through her attention, and I've learned a lot about myself so that I don't buy into the BS anymore. I'm actually starting to feel good about myself. But she's the same as ever.

I too was plunged into fast track healing after marrying my second NBPD husband.  I guess there really is a silver lining in our suffering :D 

In some ways, we are very blessed to have the wisdom we do now.  It's just a matter of putting it to good use. 

My husband isn't going to change.  I've finally accepted that after 20 years    I hope you don't expect your girlfriend to change. People shouldn't change for other people anyway.  Couples should enter into relationships as whole individuals that compliment each other, not needing to change each other.

[Turkish]

My husband isn't going to change.  I've finally accepted that after 20 years    I hope you don't expect your girlfriend to change. People shouldn't change for other people anyway.  Couples should enter into relationships as whole individuals that compliment each other, not needing to change each other.

Your last post outlined a courageous story, Leaving. As for what you said above, I found something someone here once said, and it makes sense to me:

... .how do you address a problem with one person with a completely different person? And sometimes addressing it with the person you need to isn't possible for any number of reasons.

[Kwamina]

Hiya Leaving

I've been contemplating Kwamina's original questions for some time.  It was a bit challenging for me to answer them right away because as I remembered some of my unsavory behaviors, I had to really step back in those events and examine what why I was behaving as I was.  

Thanks for coming back to this thread!

All those mixed messages your mother sent would probably confuse the most of us. It's difficult growing up in such an environment. Kids look to their parents for guidance but when you constantly get totally opposing messages, it's unfortunately very easy to get lost in them and lose your way.

It sounds like your mother was doing a whole lot of projection with you. She probably felt damaged herself and that's why she called you damaged. She probably feels her worth is determined by the attention she gets from men and that's why she tried to impose this worldview on you. Great to hear though that you have been able to deflect these projections which allows you more and more to see the real you instead of the you projected by your mother

I remember people telling me at times that they thought I wasn't on the right path or that I was doing something that wasn't true to my nature.  I had friends who were very concerned that I was self destructing at times.  I had friends who recognized something odd about my ' best friend' relationship with my mother.  But, again, until I could see the true me like they did,  I couldn't believe in myself.  I had zero self worth and only cared about others, never for myself.

This is often how it goes. As an outsider looking in it is sometimes easier to identify dysfunctional family dynamics. When you are raised in this dysfunctional environment it can be much harder to identify the dysfunctional dynamics because you in a way get so used to them that they feel 'normal'. The dynamics might not feel pleasant but it's still all you know and in a way all you are comfortable with. This unfortunately can lead children of BPD parents to re-create or seek out in their adult life the exact same drama they experienced in their childhood. Healthy or normal relationships can then actually feel more scary than unhealthy ones. Would you say this is what happened when you got married to your second husband? That he in a way felt familiar and 'safe' as in less scary because of his NPD traits?

It took me about 15 years after that to solve the mystery about my mother and become who I am today.  It was not easy, it was hell. I lost many things and wonderful relationships including my wonderful marriage.   But, the more time I spent independent of her, the more my true self began to emerge.  I was truly being born. When I look back, I don't  feel connected to the woman that I was then.  I don't recognize her in any part of me today because in truth, she wasn't me at all.  How sad.  She was my mother.  I guess I feel like I was trapped all those years in her body.  I'm no longer confused. I no longer hear her voice in my head.  I see clearly the very distinct differences between my  mother and I.  

You've definitely come a long way It's good to be able to see your growth and also give yourself credit for surviving the abuse and continually trying to heal yourself.

Since April, I've discovered that I have a chronic stress-related autoimmune disease that is destroying the collagen in my body which is affecting my eyes and my teeth/gums.  I've had 4 surgeries  since July and I am truly amazed at how well I've done!  I've had to rely on public transportation/taxis, I hired a healthcare assistant for a day to help me during the worst of it but otherwise, I'm doing fairly well. Oh and during all that my husband totaled the front end of my car. No doubt, another one of his passive aggressive attempts to keep me from getting medical care.  So, I was without transportation for several weeks but still managed.  He wasn't happy when the taxi arrived to take me to the doctors!   One day I thought, ' Wow, look at what I've been through all on my own with no friends, no family.  I am strong, I am courageous, I CAN make it on my own. I may be behind the curve but I'm not worthless. I have a lot to offer.  I have the strength to endure the divorce, to endure starting a new job, I'll be fine!"

You posted about your health issues before and I am very sorry you are also having to deal with this. Four surgeries in such a short period of time is a lot to have to deal with. I am glad though that you feel you're doing fairly well. You definitely have a lot of worth and have shown a tremendous amount of resilience 

Then I go to Youtube and watch the beginning song to the Mary Tyler Moore Show... .hahahhaha

I use youtube too, I watch happy parrot videos there

[Kwamina]

Hi TheRealJongoBong

I'm glad you gave this a shot!

The main coping mechanisms I've always had is avoidance and vanishing into the herd. I was the smallest kid in a family of 5 kids with a narcissistic father and a mother who only wanted to be around good behavior. This combination taught me to pretend I was someone else instead of my true self and avoid any situation that might cause upsets. Initially these behaviors would help me in my relationship with my pwBPD. She wants to run the show? Fine, I'll just follow the herd like I always did. She wants to control me? Fine, I won't show my true self and it will be safer that way. She wants to tell me I'm stupid? Fine, if I just agree so I can avoid an argument.

It sounds like you too might have re-created or sought out in your relationship with your pwBPD, the exact same dysfunctional dynamics as you were accustomed to during your childhood. Would you say this is an accurate assessment?

Do you feel like you, on a subconscious level, might have deliberately sought out your BPD partner because of the familiar feel of her BPD traits? Or were her BPD traits something that only became apparent after you had already been in the relationship for a while?

The BPD relationship was a driver for me to understand all this. When I was in the depths of her madness, getting tossed around like a ship in a storm, it made me start to think. It made me realize that all the crazy was not just coming from outside, that I was also driving it. She forced me into therapy with herself several times because I was the "crazy" one. I learned a lot about myself there, and how the judgements I made on myself as a kid ware still affecting me today. I learned that I was trying to get the love my mother never gave me from my partner, and I realized how impossibly wrong that was.

It's kind of funny. It was my partner pushing all my buttons that showed me what my buttons are. It was my partner who made me go to therapy to realize how all my buttons are connected.

These insights and the connections you have made are very important. We can only change things if we are able to see and then acknowledge them. It seems like this is exactly what happened to you and I'm glad you've been able to grow and are now starting to feel good about yourself

[Woolspinner2000]

1. When you look at yourself and your life to this point, are you able to identify any learned unhealthy behaviors or any coping mechanisms that might not serve you so well anymore? If you can, what behaviors or coping mechanisms can you identify?

2. At what point did you start to realize that some of your own behaviors or coping mechanisms are/were perhaps less than healthy and constructive? Did anything happen in particular that caused you to notice these things in yourself?

3. Have you found ways to deal with and possibly overcome these learned unhealthy behaviors or developed coping mechanisms? And if you have, how were you able to do this?

Kwamina, I think these are great questions. It's taken me a few days of thinking (when my brain is working through the fog of the moment) to come up with an answer that is good for me to take a deeper look at.

1. I believe one of my main coping mechanisms and behaviors would be my role of being a caretaker. On the surface it may seem like a good thing, and indeed in the correct realm and time, it can be so. However, my role of caretaker developed out of parentification as well as the need as a child to be a peacemaker. For sure it was a survival technique for me as a child of a pwBPD.

2. I began to realize about 2 years into T (only 2 years ago) that I was actually doing this on a continual basis. My T pointed out that I was trying to control outcomes. That struck a raw nerve, and I also had a hard time understanding how I could be controlling in the process of being caring. A clear example that first alerted me to this is when my T pointed out that I would place myself in the middle of everything, to try and influence or control an outcome, as in conflict between my DH and one of our children. I tried to interpret what one was saying and meaning to the other in an attempt to smooth over the conflict and reduce the anger. I needed to stop wearing the referee uniform and blowing my whistle, step out of the way, and let them deal with it amongst the two of them. He reminded me that conflict is inevitable and would take place whether I stepped in or not. I would actually only postpone the inevitable. This scenario of DH and kids is directly related to my trying to negotiate terms between my uBPDm and nonBPDf for years and years I'm sure. 

While I've done much, much better at stepping out from between family members, there was something that happened last week which alerted me to the fact that this behavior also extends beyond my family. My DH gave me a paper to deliver to someone that I greatly respect and see often in day to day interactions. My DH is 'demanding' in his own way a response to something he wrote, looking for their opinion. I delivered a paper a few weeks ago and when there wasn't a satisfactory response according to DH, he asked me to take another paper and ask that they please answer. Right now I'm at the end of my ability to handle any type of conflict since my dad just died, and I clearly saw that DH was placing me in the middle and I was doing something that I did not wish to do anymore. Let it be between the two of them and leave me out of it. Part of me wishes to protect the person that I highly respect, so I find myself wanting to direct the outcome once again. I know this person is a big person and can handle it, but my emotional response says I need to try and fix things, in essence control the outcome once again so that there is less or no conflict.

3. I was asked by my friend how I could step out of the middle, and what could I say to DH to indicate that I didn't wish to be there anymore. I was also asked why it would be important to me how my friend responded, and that was really when I realized my friend is responsible for his own choices and I need not worry about it. But it is so hard for me to let go of this conditioned response which takes over me, wanting to play peacemaker to avoid other's conflicts or conflict period. I still have work to do on #3.

Wools

[Leaving]

Hi Kwamina,

Thank you for your very thoughtful and wise response to my post ( as always :D    

About why I married my second NBPD husband:

I eluded to how the trauma of one failed marriage probably contributed to my brother and I both choosing  NBPDs for our second spouses ( actually it was his first because our mother forced him to break up with his first fiance or she would disown him).  Failing at relationships in our home made us very vulnerable to our mother's criticism and command.  Mom always appeared to have the best advice ( " you just don't want to be happy.  you just don't know what love is and can't recognize it when it's in front of you"  as if she knew better ) but now I know that her advice was really just a way to manipulate others' lives such that it benefited her in some way.  She made certain that her children would be alone when she began to get older so that she could have us all to herself but that plant of hers backfired.  I didn't want to marry my second husband.  It wasn't that I thought he was a bad guy but there were issues that concerned me greatly:

We met at work and I noticed him spying on me - literally hiding and peaking at me from behind cabinets ( I thought it was creepy but decided that he was just shy

When I gave him a cup of coffee one day he left the cup on my drawing table for me to clean

Wanted to have sex on first date

Wouldn't let me meet his housemates ( they were smoking dope and drinking all the time)

Didn't have his wallet with him on first date and didn't seem to care where it was

Pushed me out of the way in a restaurant so he could have the seat he wanted

Didn't have enough education to be compatible with me

Wasn't responsible or dependable- always late for dates, sometimes never showing up

The first thing he said when he came inside my house was, ' My mother will love you'

First time meeting his parents, his parents told him to move back home and told me about all his bad habits including poor hygiene

Never had a checking account or a credit card or a bill in his own name and his parents always did his ' easy' taxes

Always had excuses and always opposed good advice about anything even to the point of harming finances, property or employment.

Very nosy and couldn't stand for me to be alone with house guests like girlfriends coming to visit.

So anyway Kwamina, what's interesting is that when my mother called me to tell me that my husband wanted to marry me, I expressed my concern and thought she would agree with me and be proud of me for setting healthy boundaries and not rushing into a marriage with him.  After all, she was my mother and would naturally want the best for me, right?   Instead of agreeing with my concern or suggesting that I give the relationship more time , she raged at me- to the top of her lungs.  She said I was the most selfish spoiled person who had been blessed all my life and had everything done for me and given to me and that it was time now for me to give back and care for someone else.  She told me to be more like Jenny on Forrest Gump!  Really!  I had not seen the movie so I had no idea what she was talking about but  when I finally did see it, I noticed that she left out the part where Jenny was running all over hippieville sleeping with different guys and then died.  Her attack on my character drove me into complete submission and compliance.   She  did the same thing when my brother was going to marry.  I was very concerned and voiced my concerns to both my brother and mother.  I even introduced him to my best friend who was a wonderful woman of very good character and had a wonderful family.   The woman he chose wasn't a ' bad' person but she was too people pleasing, too pretentious, I felt very uncomfortable around her for those reasons and she had an eating disorder, her father was an alcoholic and her mother was a shopaholic/spender and they never shared a bedroom while raising their kids and had no intimacy around the kids. Despite my concerns, my mother was ALL FOR IT and loved the woman and dismissed all the other issues which I thought was SO STRANGE!  I mean, who want their child to marry someone who had all that baggage?  I was sick to my stomach about the marriage because I knew they would have kids and that they would eventually divorce and the kids would suffer and that's exactly what happened. One of my nieces has a horrible anxiety problem and eating disorder and she's not even 13 yet.  I don't blame my brother and I feel sad that he has suffered as he has but he chose to ignore the red flags about his wife and our mother because he believed HE was in control of his destiny and refused to admit how much our mother controls him and how insane she is.  Funny how we both ended up in the same boat despite having entirely different perspectives about our childhood.  OH and get this, my mother called me one day and suggested that I pay for my brother's divorce!  I'm not kidding you.  My brother has a ton of money, he's very secure in his job that he's had for 30 years but I'm penniless and unemployed and I'm supposed to send him money?  My mother has loads of money but she wouldn't dare give it to her child.  She's truly an evil sicko.  Sorry to speak that way and I hope that doesn't offend anyone but I can't think of a more accurate way to describe her.

I can see now that she was projecting and you're very right Kwamina how she was a very broken woman.  The only child of an NBPD mother and a father who was rarely home ( military VIP stuff).  She came from money and a lot of pretentious formalities.  While doing my family research, I spoke with the wife of a cousin who had known my mother all her life and she told me that my mother was very spoiled and oppositional all her life and that my grandmother could not say or do anything that wouldn't make my mother angry and rebel.  I also discovered that my grandmothers sister had a son who was just as disturbed as my mother.  He was also an only child.  Interesting, eh?  He had so many wives (13) I think and illegitimate children ( another family secret) that he was court ordered to get a vasectomy in the early 60's!  SO, I don't know if my mother's disorder was more genetic or conditioned from a very early age.  I'm thinking that my grandmother and  her sister contributed a bit of both since their father was a raging abusive philandering alcoholic husband and my ggreatmother divorced him ( thank G-d) which shamed the family in that small rural southern town.

I'm just glad that I'm a female and that I inherited most of my personality from my father!

[Leaving]

Hi Wools,

I had the same thought as you about being the caretaker but I wasn't sure if that was a coping mechanism or just me doing what was necessary.  Now that you have explained your behavior, I can see very well how the caretaker can develop a need to control outcomes. I think my brother is the same way. Thank you for sharing your insight about that!

I don't know if you are a devout religious person but what helped me to tone down that need was studying Zen Buddhism.  Seriously. I learned first how to recognize when I was putting unrealistic expectations of people and events and then I had to learn to let go of my attachment to outcomes. Needless to say, I keep a lot of Bach Rescue Remedy around the house     Most if not all of my need to control outcome stems from a need to prevent the trauma of being unprepared in a catastrophic situation.  As a child, I was very much alone in many ways and had way too many unexpected unhappy surprises.  I also lived with a histrionic NBPD mother who planted a lot of fear in me as well.  I'm naturally a catastrophic thinker and while that does benefit me in many ways like when I prepare for hurricanes it also creates a lot of stress for me  -especially right now, because I'm all alone and literally have no one else to turn to that I can trust and depend on.

"We learn that trusting our values is more important to taking action than desiring and striving for certain outcomes."

The Illusion of Control:       www.zenhabits.net/control/

[Auslaunder]

Hi! Great topic choice! (I'm typing on my phone so apologize this answer might not be the most eloquent).

I learned a lot of bad coping mechanisms and behaviors, some I've overcome and some not. I became a workaholic and perfectionist. I used to personalize failures as a reflection of my character. I didn't see myself as anything except my work or accomplishments. My father never valued me as a unique person so I hadn't developed self worth. When I got to college, I wasn't the best at everything anymore. (Big fish in a small pond) but I had friends who loved and valued me. I developed the talents I chose and started to use my creativity. Writing, acting, video production, also in scientific pursuits. I wasn't chasing acclaim or approval anymore but what I saw value in.

I have trouble with anxiety and I picked up smoking. That was a terrible coping mechanism. I also use avoidant behaviors. Avoiding conflicts isn't always bad but I also was avoiding positive social situations because it made me nervous. I know that people find me likeable but I felt like I couldn't relate to normal happy people for many years. I learned that most people have problems and they can relate.

Today my biggest struggle is with children. I love children but I have no idea how to discipline them properly. I feel very inadequate.

[Pina colada]

This is such a good topic!  I grew up with a BPD sibling.  She is older than I and doesn't play fair.  I have always tried to take the higher road, as in ignore, but at times I had fallen prey to her level.  I do not like when I get that way.  They just seem to "fight so dirty" it is hard to ignore at times.  I have been NC for over a year, again, my choice.  That has helped me greatly.  I stay away from situations where I could possibly sink to her level.  Although it can be hard to ignore the behaviors, they are so mean, I choose to ignore them and it has helped me grow to a new level. 

[DearBFF]

Kwamina, thank you for referring me to this thread!  :-)

I'd love to add a new question to the conversation.  I really liked the mentions of watching happy youtube videos, and I would also add to that TEDtalks and my favorite movies.

When you're feeling down what do you do for a pick me up?  What about when the BPD in your life upsets you, do you do something to preserve the relationship or heal it in your own mind?

For me when I'm down positive videos work wonders, and I also LOVE quotes (all kinds not just happy, just true).

When BFF upsets me I tend to make something for her, I guess it's my way of reactivating my compassion and reminding myself she doesn't truly mean it in the great scheme of things.  I can refocus by thinking about it, getting feedback on here, or talking with someone in order to get some perspective and remind myself that it's not about me.

How about everyone else?

1. When you look at yourself and your life to this point, are you able to identify any learned unhealthy behaviors or any coping mechanisms that might not serve you so well anymore? If you can, what behaviors or coping mechanisms can you identify?

2. At what point did you start to realize that some of your own behaviors or coping mechanisms are/were perhaps less than healthy and constructive? Did anything happen in particular that caused you to notice these things in yourself?

Have you found ways to deal with and possibly overcome these learned unhealthy behaviors or developed coping mechanisms? And if you have, how were you able to do this?[/i]

As pointed out by the therapist my coping mechanism of making BFF little presents and or buying her small trinkets while I am out and about is not unhealthy in and of itself.  It is however unconstructive for me to then leave these gifts for BFF when she is treating me poorly.  I had never thought of it this way until the therapist pointed it out stating that I am "rewarding bad behavior."  While I still make my gifts and actually have a lovely box sitting by the door for her, I will follow the therapists advice and not give BFF the box until her behavior towards me is better.  Not keeping my fingers crossed for this, but I also have no intention of throwing the box away.  It's almost like the box is my hope for our relationship to be good, however I am realizing more and more that this may not be possible until she gets actual help for the BPD.  Otherwise it may seem good for a short period, but then she's right back to pushing me away again and the drama ensues all over.  So for now it is a comfort to me to have it, to add to it, little by little all of the things that I do knowing it is for one day so that I can have hope.  I do think though that I may go against the therapists advice on one count and that is that one of the items is actually a 2016 planner... .I would hate for it to go to waste so I may try to get that to her.  I figure Christmas is months away so by then I may be white again, and we may even spend Christmas together, but I won't hold my breath.  If not I will see if I can get together to get her daughter a present from mine and throw hers in there as well.  If I hadn't bought a date specific present I wouldn't bother, but I did and now I want to make sure she gets it... . 

Growing up one of my biggest behaviors was lying.  The thing is I don't think I'd truly call it unhealthy because I had to in order to "survive" in my family.  I was not, and could not be what/who they wanted me to be, so I learned to play the perfect role.  Somehow I still managed to disappoint them at every turn but I tried.  I was never good enough... .When I got older I realized I lied, but nothing big and not to people I actually cared about; mostly to get out of things I didn't want to do.  Then I realized it was about silly things as I lied less and less, it would be some small detail about something.  I'd immediately stop myself, but if I didn't catch myself in time I would immediately fix it.  "No wait, that wasn't right... ." and I'd correct it right away so it was more like I made a mistake than was truly lying and that was the truth.  Over time it became less and less a problem, and now I hate lying so much I get upset and anxious when someone else asks me to do it for them.  I am lucky to have not been placed in the position where I had to choose, but I know that people who truly care about me (and are healthy) would not ask me to do so for them.  I always told BFF that I have never lied to her and I didn't up until a while back and the lie (what I consider a lie) was not intentional.  I was supposed to get together with her and at the last minute literally as I'm getting up to grab my stuff and walk out the door (dressed and ready to go) she texted to cancel saying she was running late at work and too tired to hang out after.  I said I was already on my way, and I asked if I could just meet her at her work to help.  I realized after she texted fine and I got my stuff and got in my car and drove off that I wasn't truly on my way until just then.  It's ridiculous, but I still feel a bit guilty about it as I think if you polled the general population the majority would say I was not actually "on my way" since I hadn't left yet.

Leaving, I love what you said about "which parts of us are authentic and which parts are conditioned responses" and I can relate very much.  Now that I'm 33 years old I can say I have gotten rid of almost every conditioned response I had, at least the one I was aware of or become aware of over time.  (There are probably more in there I just never noticed or that no one had brought to my attention yet.)  When I was doing something that I used to get in trouble for I would start to panic.  Here's the thing, I'm not talking at the time while I was living with my father who created my conditioned responses I'm talking years later, almost a decade in some cases.  One of the most ridiculous ones that nobody really seemed to noticed (mostly because I have had very few friends, but also because it mostly happened internally) is that when I was shuffling a deck of cards my heart would begin to race and my hands would start to tremble.  I was fine getting the deck of cards, taking them out and dividing them into two piles and making the first shuffle.  Then as I divided the cards again and divided them I would absentmindedly tap the two piles together before shuffling (side to side while I held the piles on end, pretty sure I'm not the only one who does this).  My entire life growing up every time my father would snap at me, and when I would ask questions at first I would get brutally yelled at as I as "ruining the deck of cards."  I was somehow making the deck of (usually free cards pilfered from an airline or hotel at the time) utterly useless by tapping them together.  It wasn't until I literally burst into laughter one day while shuffling I realized how ridiculous it was, not just that I was panicking as my father was not there, but that there is no way I was "damaging" the cards by doing this as I was not exerting enough force to "damage" anything unless I spent 24/7 doing this for my entire life; then possibly one might notice a ding or dent.  I suppose I fixed this myself through exposure therapy, talking myself down every time I would get worried while shuffling and eventually it just went away.  One day I took out a deck of cards, shuffled, dealt and suddenly realized it hadn't even occurred to me to be worried or scared because I was ok. ... .  I definitely heard my father's voice in my head at those times as you mentioned in your other post.  Over time it has diminished almost completely... .there are a few things that I wouldn't say trigger me but that do remind me of him and those things I HATE.  It's like they put me right back there... .for instance the word "precious" I HATE it... .it was his nickname for me and honestly it just grosses me out whenever I hear the word it's like I instantly feel icky!  Not sure how to get rid of that stuff and since it happens so rarely I don't particularly think it's worth the time to do so.  I'm fine shaking off the ick, while I'd rather be free of it I don't see how to undo 20 years of the past to make a word not connected to those years.  The truth is it is... .  Getting away from there, my parents house, is what helped me look outside and realize just how not "normal" it was there.  That things they said and did were not "normal" or as the therapist put it dysfunctional.  After I met my husband as he got to know me things would come out... .my not "normal" rearing it's ugly head and us trying to come up with a way to calm it or cut it off.  Now he gets me, all of me, he's been there for it, he loves me unconditionally and I feel at peace with that.  I think finding ourselves is almost a lifelong process, but I know now that I am more myself than I have ever been.  :-)

Harri, I hope you are doing well and that you have gotten a handle on the binge eating, replacing it with new healthier coping habits.  I was thinking if you are having trouble I suppose you could only keep good stuff in the house?  While I know it's not a solution and overeating anything isn't great in general, if you are binging on fruits and veggies that can't be all bad.  Then again, I would guess you probably crave more unhealthy choices?  I do hope you are doing better and wish you luck!  Take care 

[Leaving]

DEARBFF,

About the cards... .I'm laughing with you at the absurdity of your father's obsession, your reaction ( I can totally relate!) and with joy that you were able to step outside of your emotional trauma and tap into your own logical mind!  Being blessed with the gift of analytical thinking is really how I have been able to make sense of the insanity in my own life and learn to laugh at much of it.  It's truly nuts, isn't it?  Those petty obsessions of others can truly shame and traumatize us for many years, if not a lifetime but like you, I've found that as I detach physically and create my own experiences, I can recall those icky experiences and not react. We must create new happy associations in our life.  Maybe one day you will be able to create a new association for ' Precious'.  What a bizarre nickname for a man!  Ick is right.  My grandmother always hated the name ' Bud' and her reaction to it seemed abnormal but she never told me why.  I discovered through genealogy that her ' beloved' father's nickname was Bud. She spent a lifetime trying to convince herself that her father was this wonderful man, that she was his favorite and she refused to acknowledge the truth about him and her family.  But, because she refused to acknowledge the truth about her past, she lived a lie every single day and invested so much energy into avoiding and covering up her past. However,  her  buried secrets would reveal themselves in other harmful behaviors.  That's how abuse gets perpetuated from one generation to the next.  But, we're here today choosing to live in truth and end the abuse. The truth really does set you free!

Similar to your card story, I can't stand hearing people ' pack cigarettes' because I had an obsessive N boyfriend once who was so freaking meticulous about packing his cigarettes 4 times ( not 1, 2 or 3 or 5)  that if I accidentally opened them before he packed them, he wouldn't even smoke them.  At the time, I didn't know he was an N but now, in hindsight, I realize that my aversion to him and his obsession was really rooted in my mother's N personality traits and my conscious or subconscious aversion to them. 

You're right... learning to recognize the associations we've made and to either keep them or alter them will be a lifelong process but thank goodness we have the option to choose! 

[Kwamina]

Thanks for joining the discussion DearBFF

Growing up one of my biggest behaviors was lying.  The thing is I don't think I'd truly call it unhealthy because I had to in order to "survive" in my family.  I was not, and could not be what/who they wanted me to be, so I learned to play the perfect role.

I think this is key here. These coping mechanisms we formed were necessary and served us well when we were children. They however can become unhealthy when we continue to apply them in our adult lives. What first might have been a healthy and necessary survival mechanism may then turn into an unhealthy and less than constructive coping mechanism.

[Harri]

Claudia, thank you for the encouragement.  Your post made me laugh and smile.  It certainly makes it easier to get all vulnerable on here as I expose some of my darkest fears and secrets.  Many thanks my friend.  

Leaving, so much of your post resonates.  Re: the mixed messages about sex - my mother would alternate between telling me it was dirty and men only use women (any key hole will do Harri!   ) to encouraging me to be a stripper  .  So there is a bit of a difference in the verbal messages but it all adds up to some pretty messed up ways of relating to men.  

I didn't realize then that accolades or compliments regarding my work were triggers that caused me such discomfort that I had to do something awful to cope... .get drunk, have sex.

I can relate to this too.  :)ifficulty hearing and receiving compliments.  Kind words and positive feedback would actually hurt and could, and sometimes still can, get me on the path to self destruction.  I am much much better with that now though.  I no longer cry when someone compliments me.  I no longer want to run away as I wait for the inevitable downfall.  I no longer have an blind and uncontrollable urge to prove them wrong with some messed up phrase or action.  It is still a bit of a struggle, but I can now receive compliments and kindness and not do those things, but the thoughts still come sometimes.  

I am so very glad you were able to work through all the lies and projections your mother put on you.  They were lies Leaving.  Lies that burrow deep into your being and yet you were able to see that and you chose to not let them falsely define you anymore.  To be able to do that takes mental and emotional strength and also speaks of spiritual strength.  Well done!  Actually, I can say this to every person who has responded to this thread and is working on their self too.  As messed up as I was and still am, and as hard as this work is, we are the lucky ones who are willing to look within.  

Wools and Leaving, your comments about care taking helped me to see that when I choose to ignore what my friend does to me (rolling her eyes, smirking, etc) is in part a care taking or 'fixer' behavior too.  I thought I had conquered that particular beast!  The whole Fixer/Fixee relationship has been dominate in my mind lately and I have wanted to start a thread on it for a while.  I can see the connection now with how I have been feeling about my friend and my role in that dynamic.  

BFF, thank you!  I am doing better physically in that I am back to my usual baseline    Emotionally i am doing much better though the binging is still a problem.  I usually do only keep healthy stuff in the house but I will still overeat to the point of pain.  Or I will get in my car and go buy something.  I drive around, passing stores that have what I want as I talk myself out of it, but then i keep driving, passing store after store and not going in, until I do eventually stop.      It is crazy.  It is hard for me to get out for one, plus it causes me pain to sit in my car for longer than a half hour... .and there I am driving around for about an hour.     Writing and talking about it has made me more aware and I have gone on drives where I do not stop so that is a plus.  I am working on getting myself professional help with this and have an appointment scheduled for the beginning of November.  Now to find a counselor who can help with the eating and mother daughter incest issue as I think they are closely linked.  Time to work these issues at a deeper level than ever before.  Posting here and the work I do on my own is a huge help, but it also stirs up things I am not equipped to deal with on my own.  

Talking about the how the name Precious bothers you is similar to a reaction I had/have to a board members name. It is what my mother would call me and she would say it in this sing song creepy annoying voice and once it gets in my head I have a hard time getting it out. <shudders!>   I wanted to beg the admins here to ban that name so it can never be used.        I mean people have the right to choose their own names but what about my needs?  <--- said with sarcasm and total awareness of just how unreasonable that is... .but I still want it banned!  

JongoBongo, it is good to have you post here and I hope you venture over more often.    

[Leaving]

Harri,

Thank you so much for sharing all your truth and insight. I can't believe that your mother did the same thing mine did about the sex stuff!  I've never met anyone else who also had that same experience.  I wonder which one of us would have been more successful- the prostitute or the stripper?  Geesh!  They could have set the bar a little higher for us- at least a Rockette dancer, eh?  I hope you realize that there is nothing wrong with you.  I know you are dealing with the collateral conditioning of your upbringing ( like many of us) but we're still much better off than our abusers.  Frankly, we are much better off than many because we have the gift of insight which many humans lack.

About your ' friend'.  Harri, one of things I've noticed in recent years when I examine past relationships/friendships is that there were many narcissists in my life.  These are very insecure people with over inflated egos that prey on sweet passive souls like ourselves that wouldn't dare ever insult or oppose them in any way.   Your ' friend' is using you to make herself feel like a 'good' person but cares nothing for you and has no respect for you.  Your friend's constant dismissal by rolling her eyes is truly disgusting to me.  That's what my hsuband always does to me as well and it doesn't matter what I'm saying.  He dismisses everything with that roll of the eyes. It's very abusive actually.  My mother will do the same only instead of rolling her eyes, she will literally cut someone off mid sentence and say something rude like, ' Ok, well, you didn't need to discuss all that.  I didn't know you were going to go into all that.  I have to go. " and other very rude things that I couldn't even begin to imagine saying to someone ( well, maybe her!    But, I'm a very thoughtful and respectful listener.  Thankfully, that was one of the pluses of being raised by a narcissist!  She trained me well   I enjoy listening because it helps me gain more insight into the whole person.  Narcissists have no desire to know anything about YOU.  You are just a prop that they use to make them look or feel good.  Sort of like a fashion accessory on a dull dress.  Right now in my life, I need supportive and helpful people but I know I'm very vulnerable to N's who are seeking broken needy people.  So, I have to be very careful and selective in who I share my truth and my needs with.  One way to protect myself is to quit thinking that I'm broken or needy.  I know it's difficult to give up what little bits the N's offer that we have comfortably relied on but finding the courage to say no more and seek other more healthy means of support must be our goal.

You don't need anyone like that in your life Harri.  I know you feel like you're probably not good enough for anyone else because you have health problems but trust me, everyone has issues and you're plenty good enough to have friends who will honor you and champion your life.  

Sunday is Rosh Hashana, the New Year, for me and I wish you could be here to celebrate with me but I shall send you this blessing for a new beginning:

Let us bless the flow of life that revives us, sustains us and brings us to this day.

Rise up, shine, for your light is here!

May your heart be lightened and your spirit born anew.

Harri,

Be who you are

and may you be blessed

in all that you are  

[Leaving]

Thanks for joining the discussion DearBFF

Growing up one of my biggest behaviors was lying.  The thing is I don't think I'd truly call it unhealthy because I had to in order to "survive" in my family.  I was not, and could not be what/who they wanted me to be, so I learned to play the perfect role.

I think this is key here. These coping mechanisms we formed were necessary and served us well when we were children. They however can become unhealthy when we continue to apply them in our adult lives. What first might have been a healthy and necessary survival mechanism may then turn into an unhealthy and less than constructive coping mechanism.

Ah yes Kwamina.  Good point about how something may have benefited us at one time but not now.  This is true for everything in life really ( I can no longer eat spice drops anymore :'(   ) and why awareness, personal insight and the ability to create and adapt to change is an essential part of growth. 

[DearBFF]

Leaving, it is so good to hear you say "laughing" as it means you truly get it, .  Others will just say something like "that's stupid/weird" and kind of roll their eyes but you saying "laughing" makes me smile.    About not reacting... .I'm in the same place, and it's odd that I forget how shocking it is to hear some things from my past.  On my visits recently to the therapist (in hopes of learning more about how to handle the relationship with BFF) she asked stories about my childhood, as I suppose most therapists do.  I just started laying it out there not even pausing really and at moments I had completely forgotten that were utterly disturbing her mouth literally fell open!  I had to kind of laugh, thinking in my head oh yea that's not usual.  Then again, I'm sitting there thinking, but she's a therapist doesn't she hear this stuff every day.  Gosh my family must have been really bad, .   

Your grandmother sounds exactly like my mother!  Avoidance, denial, and just downright lying to herself... .my friend's mother who is a cancer survivor just like my mother has said it could be chemo brain, basically they don't remember things as a result of chemo, but it is too much to be related to that for me.  Unfortunately, Alzheimer's disease also runs in her family so she has 2 strikes in the memory area not to mention her usual personality quirk of just conveniently forgetting uncomfortable situations.  Even though we are not close it would have been nice to have someone who was there for the earlier part of my life that I could recollect things with.  "Hey, remember when... .?"  I however, do not have that because she either doesn't remember or is in denial about whatever happened if it wasn't a pleasant time.  Do you ever feel like that about things from your past?  It's kind of like I lived it, but in a way it's like not having lived it because I have no one to validate things that happened to me.

Hearing about your ex's cigarette packing habit (he sounds immensely stubborn) reminds me very much of my father's quirks.  I feel he may have been an N, but I truly don't think I will ever know.  Nothing was good enough and I could do nothing write so I had to be shown everything.  Once he reprimanding me for not doing a good enough job sweeping the garage.  So he did about half of it yelling at him to watch so I could get it right.  Then when I was about to grab the broom to take over he used it to throw the dust and dirt back into every corner of the garage causing me to start all over again.

By high school I got so sick of his double standard since he could do things however he wanted, but there were rules for myself and my mother that he didn't always follow himself that I started turning them on him.  For instance if a friend would call and not identify themselves, "Hello this is Jill calling for your daughter, is she available please?" he began to hang up on them because he felt it was rude.  Somehow it did not occur to them that him hanging up on them in the first place would be considered much more rude than well, almost anyone on Earth.  So after a weekend of friends telling me they were hung up on by my father I followed suit.  Someone called for him I answered and they said, "Hello... ." No identification, so I hung up.  He literally stormed into the room minutes later when the phone rang again and he answered to an irate friend telling him his daughter rudely hung up on them.  I waited for him to finish and said simply, "He did not identify himself.  Isn't that your rule?"   ... .He never hung up on any of my friends again!   

Unfortunately, to this day I still have some sounds that throw me off as well.  I honestly think that my father actually made me sensitive to sound.  Sometimes the smallest thing can just drive me nuts.  One of them is rubbing together your pointer and thumb, it sounds so innocent but seriously rub them together and then place them by your ear.  It sounds that LOUD to me no matter where someone is doing it, it's like I hear it above everything else.  So if someone is talking to me for instance and doing that at the same time I literally have to ask them to stop, I cannot focus on them speaking while they do that because I cannot hear their words over the sound.  I also am sensitive to motion... .if someone is bouncing their knee within a foot of me for instance I cannot stand it long before I ask them to stop, as to me it feels like I'm sitting on their knee while they bounce me up and down instead.

Kwamina, so very true... .I'm glad I've unlearned the lying at the drop of the hat.  It became really unconstructive as later I would think, "why on Earth did I lie about that?  That is so inconsequential" but it truly does become habit at a point.

Leaving & Harri, I feel like I got a lot of mixed messages too.  I think in part it's what bolstered the lying habit.  For instance we were not supposed to lie, yet I'd see my mom make up excuses when she didn't want to go to an event.  Or I'd see my father expound on a story so thoroughly it barely was related to the original event.  Then of course when I found out I was adopted and they both lied to me for over a decade that was the cherry on top and I never trusted them again.  Especially since they had multiple chances to tell the truth they just never did.  They always said they planned on telling me, but never found the opportunity.  I asked my mom once what the scar on her abdomen was from, and she told me that's where they took me out of her.  In reality it's the scar from her hysterectomy years before they ever adopted me.  That sounds like the perfect opportunity for me, mind you by then I was a teenager so there were plenty of opportunities before then.  They taught me lying was part of daily life, yet you weren't supposed to do it... .it made no sense. 

We were also not supposed to steal... .yet our guest bath had a cabinet under the sink full of hotel soaps, shampoos, conditioners, lotions, etc... .mind you were were a family of 3 and there were enough to last a family of 6 a year or more.  Also, I don't mean he took them from our room, I mean he took handfuls from the maid's cleaning cart.  Not to mention pulling into a hotel that had a sign which said free breakfast while on a road trip.  No not a hotel we were staying in... .as I got older and understood it was stealing I would refuse to eat, then I'd be sick in the car and be lightheaded and I'd be yelled at for feeling faint because I did not partake in the stolen breakfast when I had the chance.  I would end up punished for doing the RIGHT thing... .it was exhausting!

Harri, looking within... .so very true my friend!  I love BFF so much, yet she cannot see how often she is putting blame on others and lashing out when she feels justified instead of just looking inside to understand her behaviors, learned or otherwise from her BPD; she would have much more luck starting with herself first.  I know it sounds easy, but I know it is not.  I struggled for decades before I started to pick up for myself and realized I could turn around so much just by changing myself and how I reacted to things.  It's like the whole world evolves because you change one thing, then another, and another... .   ... .

I'm so sorry there is a name here that causes you to <shudder> when you read it... .I totally get it, trust me!  It's frustrating that someone can take something so innocent like a word with a simple definition and twist it into something else.  Imagine me holding my adorable infant daughter and EVERY single person that saw her said, "Oh, she's so precious!"  I literally wanted to punch them and scratch their eyes out, ... .that was 5 years ago so it has gotten better, but I totally get it.