POLL: My BPD detector went off today... interested in comments on my reaction

[How to communicate after a contentious divorce...]

Here's the deal: she thought formflier had lied to her when he told her the stroller was in good working order. That's why she was so angry.

I agree.

It explains her behavior.

It does not justify it.

[Cole]

Here's the deal: she thought formflier had lied to her when he told her the stroller was in good working order. That's why she was so angry.

I agree.

It explains her behavior.

It does not justify it.

[Cat Familiar]

Cole, as a former police officer, I'm sure you saw lots of stupid violence over honor that was about something utterly insignificant.

I think it's fine to defend it, but it could have been done in a way where her concerns were addressed. Like "It worked when we last used it and I'm offended that you think I tried to rip you off."

Instead, formflier didn't say anything about the condition of the stroller at first and just asked for an apology for the lecture as part of the exchange of money.

[KateCat]

I wonder what would have happened had the woman's husband shown up at the assigned "apology" appointment, having heard his wife's version of this story.

[Cole]

Cole, as a former police officer, I'm sure you saw lots of stupid violence over honor that was about something utterly insignificant.

I think it's fine to defend it, but it could have been done in a way where her concerns were addressed. Like "It worked when we last used it and I'm offended that you think I tried to rip you off."

Instead, formflier didn't say anything about the condition of the stroller at first and just asked for an apology for the lecture as part of the exchange of money.

I saw plenty of stupid behavior caused by people like her who over-react and unduly insult others. There was no need for her to get personal.

I applaud FF for setting a standard that such behavior is unacceptable.  

I wonder what would have happened had the woman's husband shown up at the assigned "apology" appointment, having heard his wife's version of this story.

The results would be of her doing.

[Cole]

I find it amazing that so many are stating what FF should have done differently. That he did not defend himself properly.

How about her? "Hi, I am the lady who just bought the stroller. The brakes do not work. Can I return it and get my money back?"

If she had said that, this thread would not exist.  

[formflier]

I wonder what would have happened had the woman's husband shown up at the assigned "apology" appointment, having heard his wife's version of this story.

He would have probably been happy to be able to talk directly with someone... .without beating around the bush.

Zero chance he would have been emotionally blackmailed... .or scratched his head wondering what I meant... .

FF

[KateCat]

The lady was very rude. She started it.

If the lady had started this thread, she would hear a number of things she wouldn't like.

I think this thread is of interest to me because I thought maybe formflier would have liked to have done things differently, especially after he had a couple of days to reflect. For me, personally, I would feel ashamed if I had played his role, and the $30 would feel like a talisman of shame each time I considered it.

I'm satisfied now that formflier does not feel shame.

[Harri]

CatFamiliar, FF has said several times that he would have said things differently after some of the the discussion here.  Way back on the very first thread that he started on this incident.  Your suggestion here ("I think it's fine to defend it, but it could have been done in a way where her concerns were addressed. Like "It worked when we last used it and I'm offended that you think I tried to rip you off." has been addressed already though it is hard to tell that now that the original 3 threads have been consolidated and pruned.  But he did say he would have changed how he handled it many many posts ago.  

Cole, as a former police officer, I'm sure you saw lots of stupid violence over honor that was about something utterly insignificant.

With all due respect, you do not get to define or decide what is significant for someone else.  I see this as a boundary issue on your part.  You get to have an opinion but that is about it.  

Well it seems the difference in the responses come down to whether you want to come from a punitive or a compassionate place.

That is far too simplistic and biased in your positions favor IMO.  :)efine compassion.  Is it compassionate to allow a grown woman to get away with passive aggressive and emotionally manipulative behavior?  Is is compassionate to allow her to continue to use her children as a shield for her own negligence in not checking the brakes?

When I posted earlier and said that I would have told her I would have gone with "It is apparent you have me all figured out.  Too bad because you are missing out on the opportunity to learn just how kind I really am and you just lost out on getting your $30 bucks back."... . I was nOt coming from a punitive place.  I was actually remembering back to an incident that happened when I was in my early 20's, got mouthy, passive aggressive and tried to prey on a AAA tow truck guys sympathies during a snow storm by being a drama queen.  It was 9 am, I was at work, sick and could not get home because my car did not run.  He told me that he did not deserve to be talked to that way and that he would get to me in turn.  Guess what time he came to the office to tow my car and me home?  8pm at night.  Yep.  The guy spanked me hard and I deserved it.  To this day, I cringe when i think about it but if I could see him again I would thank him for kicking me out of that place of being a drama-queen-victimized-arrogant-jerk.  I have no illusions that he did it to teach me a lesson.  He was being a hard-a*s about it.  I am thankful the jerk put me in my place.  

You say punitive and in one of the pruned responses when the threads were consolidated someone (you?) called FFs behavior 'jerk-like'.  I see it very differently.

The question I have for you and the others who have tried so hard to get FF to change is position is *why*?   

[formflier]

I think it's fine to defend it, but it could have been done in a way where her concerns were addressed. Like "It worked when we last used it and I'm offended that you think I tried to rip you off."

There seems to be an insistence that I didn't address the concern the lady implied... suggested... stated... .whatever is was that she did.

She was offered a pathway to something she kinda... .sorta... .said I was unable to do... .or wouldn't do... or whatever.  Get her money back.

Yesterday I realized I made a booboo on my Autozone rewards (remember... I'm a gearhead... .do most of my own auto work... .many times when my wife thought I should have been doing housework... .)

One place on the website said I had rewards to spend... .one place said they expired... .it was pretty confusing.  I was concerned about the $$.  I called... .was polite... asked the person how they were doing... expressed some confusion about what I was reading... .and that I would appreciate any help they could provide.  I was very conscious to make sure that there was nothing about my demeanor that said "complaint".

Turns out... .I was supposed to have already spent the reward... and it expired.  Totally my fault.  The person restored the award... found one expired from a year or two ago... and restored it as well.  I thanked them profusely.  Today I went in a store... spent my rewards and then some.

I was polite... .there was really no special effort... .no extra kiss a$$... that's just the way I am.  In this instance it paid off.

Couple days ago... I tried to talk my way into a special deal on tires at Firestone... .the guy looked up my record... saw all my previous purchases... but declined to offer a deal.  He's not the guy I normally talk to... that guy was off.  (no big deal... I didn't hate the guy... .or thing bad of him)  Called back today... .talked to normal guy.  Had a great conversation... .he's known I'll be bugging him for tires for my duramax truck for a while... .we did some polite haggling... said he could get me out the door for $847 (almost a couple hundred better than my deal from couple days before).  I told him the truck would be in his shop in couple hours.  He wasn't there when I got there... .but he had written the ticket up for his guys... .I tossed them the keys... .looked at the ticket... .$798.

This is the way I do business... .it works for me.  Works for me when I sell stuff as well.  I enjoy talking to enjoyable... .happy people.  

From there... I went to pick up another car that had been in shop for a while... and still wasn't fixed because of a back ordered part from Chrysler.  Well... .the shop foreman said it would be simpler if I could just pay the ticket in a couple weeks... .when that part came in.  Probably close to a $500 bill he decided to wait on.  Tossed me keys and I drove away.

So... saying this to explain that I do live in a small town.  If word got around that I was a "jerk" to a lady... .I'm positive that people would ask what she did... .positive.

People know me... .the know my Dad... .and my Granddad.  We're cut from the same cloth.  We'll tell it to you straight... .we behave as proper gentleman should.  There is a misconception out there that a gentleman is gentle in all situations... .no so... .(IMO).

FF

[HappyNihilist]

I don't read personality disorder at all in the woman's words. I read a woman who was upset that she'd been sold a defective stroller and was overreacting and being rude because she was worried that she was being ripped off and because it could have potentially impacted her child's safety.

We all make assumptions. That doesn't mean they're correct.

We usually make these assumptions based on our experiences. Perhaps the woman had been burned before in purchases, and assumed you had knowingly done so. After all, you assumed she might have a personality disorder, based on your experiences with BPD.

You both wound up triggering each other, and so the exchange was far more emotionally charged than the situation called for.

She was rude, and you were rude. And in the end, no one really got what they wanted.

I am very fond of saying - "is this the hill I want to die on?"

Because yes, I've reacted obstinately when I felt my character or values were being impugned. It's human nature to feel defensive in such situations. But, over the years as I've been working on this very issue, I've come to realize that it is rarely the best course of action.

Actions speak louder than words. People can and will say whatever they want, behind my back or to my face. But it's hard to argue with consistent actions.

Having one's honor impugned is hurtful. But the honorable action would have been to give the refund without making it contingent on an in-person apology. (Honestly, as a woman, I would feel very uneasy if a man I didn't know asked for an in-person, sincere apology.)

In short - I understand where both of you were coming from. And yes, both of you could have handled it better. But we're all just human.

[formflier]

And in the end, no one really got what they wanted.

Um... .I did... .  I'm satisfied with what I "got".

Luckily I was in a position where the options I was able to present were all acceptable

Status quo... or refund and apology...

Either way... I'm good.

FF

[KateCat]

Well, have a glass of tiger's blood on me. 

[Notwendy]

Honestly, as a woman, I would feel very uneasy if a man I didn't know asked for an in-person, sincere apology.

I once purchased something and arranged to meet the seller to pick it up. I chose a public place and informed my family where I was going. I was concerned about my safety. So many frightening stories in the media. The man seemed quite nice when I met him. I didn't feel uncomfortable at all, but still, it is important to be cautious.

Some time later I bought a used item from a young woman. She also arranged to meet me in a public place and was very careful around me. She told me she had received some strange phone calls from potential buyers that made her nervous.

This isn't about what happened with FF or an attempt to change his mind. I wanted to highlight that the media has made us all aware of not so upright people selling things on Craigs list and other media, and that there are unethical people out there taking advantage of possible buyers. I think both sellers and buyers would try to avoid meeting a person they think may be angry at them.

I think it is a good idea to err on the side of caution. Buyers and sellers may consider the worst possible scenario when dealing with each other.

[Turkish]

formflier,

How do you see this from a control dynamic?

T

[formflier]

formflier,

How do you see this from a control dynamic?

T

Hmmm... .  well... .I suppose I like to control my environment... .what I experience. 

Not sure if this is where you were leaning or not.

FF

[Skip]

I think Turkish is getting at this:

jogging stroller: Let's call the broken brakes an oversight and make our returns with no hurt feelings (3:15 PM)

Me: no (3:15 PM)

Me: stroller... .genuine in person apology,, and you get your $30 back (3:16 PM)

Is this "problem solving" or "wanting to be right"? Wanting her to say you are right? Wanting us (members here) to say you are right?

Was classing her into "BPD category"  stepping it up even further. Healthy vs unhealthy.

Right. Wrong.

Healthy. Unhealthy.

Karpman's drama triangle theory delves into this (see article on main site)... .Some of us adopt a "drama" personality in life - it's becomes us and how we deal with things.

Do you see how she adopted a drama approach initially?  Rather than just ask to return the stroller, she attacked you personally.

But... .

Do you see how she yielded and you opted for drama rather than solution.

Right. Wrong.

Healthy. Unhealthy.

If we don't want drama in our life, we have to shake the drama personality.

Why did you pick drama is the hard question here.  How often do you pick drama is an even harder one.

What do you think?

[formflier]

Do you see how she yielded and you opted for drama rather than solution.

More later on this... .but the quick response.

I already had a solution that I was good with.  If she had yielded and said her words were an oversight and she probably erred at not checking it out enough... .I would have been fine with that.

She was willing to let bygones be bygones on what I had brought to the table to be "fixed".

And still wanted her side "fixed".

I was fine with mutual happiness... .or mutual status quo.  Perhaps another solution would have been presented which might have been acceptable... .we'll never know.

More later...

FF

[Cole]

Why did you pick drama is the hard question here.  

I don't understand where the drama comes in. FF did not attack her in return or attempt to escalate. He simply stated his terms for a return of the $30, that being an apology for a personal attack. Or am I perceiving what happened incorrectly?  

What I see is someone taking a stand against a behavior which permeates our fast food society and damages our culture. "I want it my way, right now. And if you mess up it is my right to go off on you and attack you personally." I work in the security industry as a consultant to C level executives on policy, procedure, HR, and physical security measures. Every client I have is installing cameras and panic buttons in their public contact areas because of people with this mindset. Universities, hospitals, government agencies and large corporations alike all have to deal with this issue. And companies are taking a stand. Many retailers are reviewing video of these incidents and telling rude customers not to come back.  

Had FF not called her on her actions, he would have been reinforcing her behavior and she would have done the same to the next person who made her mad. I would have handled it very much the same way he did with no regrets.        

[formflier]

 

Cole,

I have similar thoughts... .you have my mindset correct.  I'm going to read the drama article... .triangle... .and then come back to this.

I sent that article to someone in another thread... .so... probably good for me to study up on it...

To me... drama would have been "How could you say that?  My life is over... .!  You (insert female derogatory term)... .how dare you speak to me this way... .  I think you are BPD... .  etc etc etc... ."

Perhaps I will change my mind after reading the article...

FF

[Notwendy]

There is a difference between the boundary of not letting people treat you poorly and that of having to be right.

Skip alluded to the drama triangle. It's not a simple concept. We can be in any role at one time, as well as play all the roles with ourselves. All roles lead to "victim".

The way someone might play this out with oneself is with an addiction. I feel bad- (victim)-- so I will have a drink, shop, gamble (rescuing oneself from the bad feeling.

The way we can play this out with others is - This person did/said/ X to me ( victim) so I will act to protect myself from this (rescuer)- however, by taking on the role of rescuer, we then become the persecutor to the person. That person feels like a victim and so on.

With three people - all three can take on the roles with each other. This was a common pattern in my FOO.

Skip mentioned avoiding drama. That can be a motivator too. The distinction is between avoiding drama and avoiding conflict and so not standing up for yourself.

How do you know the difference- that is a tough one. The key to this that I use is to be aware of how I feel. Do I feel like a victim- am I thinking that someone did something to me?

The other role that is one I can stumble on is rescuer. It is really hard for me to avoid trying to help and fix situations for people- but I have to look at it as having faith in their ability to manage their own feelings and problems, and learn to manage my own discomfort when people are upset. 

But one role is no better than the other. They are all unhealthy relationship styles. If the goal for us is to learn new healthier ways to interact with people, we have to not get on the triangle. It isn't an easy thing to do though. Sometimes it is trial and error, and practice.

[Cole]

Perhaps I will change my mind after reading the article...

FF

I hope not. The ability to take a stand against what you saw as wrong and not back down is a strong leadership trait missing in the boardroom. It says something about your ability to handle this new executive level position.  

[formflier]

Perhaps I will change my mind after reading the article...

FF

I hope not. The ability to take a stand against what you saw as wrong and not back down is a strong leadership trait missing in the boardroom. It says something about your ability to handle this new executive level position.  

I agree... .

However... .even more important is a leader/person... .that is open to new information (or that their situational awareness is off)... and not afraid to say they are wrong... .or could do something better.

There is an old pilot joke and cartoon about "Hey... what are those mountain goats doing way up here in the clouds"... when you think you are flying along... fat dumb and happy(common navy saying... )... .out of danger.  Intent of that cartoon is good to have in real life... .

I could have done this better.  From what I've learned here... .I will do things better in the future.

But... .the basic approach is still the same.

Instead of attempting to rock and cuddle her emotional state and hope she behaved better... .I succinctly set a pathway for her to get what she wanted... .and to protect myself from "bad behavior".

I would set it differently... .use different words... .but the intent would be the same... .

That's where I'm at now...

FF

[Cole]

There is a difference between the boundary of not letting people treat you poorly and that of having to be right.

And there is a difference between having to be right and standing up for what is right. Where do you think FF stands in this? I believe the latter.  

[Notwendy]

FF, I think what you are saying is that we associate drama with the idea of the "drama queen" -over the top emotional responses to things that don't warrant them.

But drama is more broad than that. It is an unhealthy way of relating to people. It is "drama" because it involves playing a role. These roles can be automatic and subconscious.

I think the role we see as most like the "drama queen" is victim, but victim is also about how we perceive things. If we see something as acting on us, and we get defensive, we can be in victim role.

When is it healthy to act as rescuer and when it is not could be subtle. As a member of the armed forces, you know that the role of defender is vital to our survival as a country. We also know that there are people who are truly victims.

However, taking the perception of victim can be limiting in our choices of how to respond, and so this is why we are encouraged to take another perspective if possible, and see things from different angles- to open up possibilities to change and for personal growth.

[MaybeSo]

Yes, now we are getting somewhere.

Stroller lady was on fire.

We address the fire first and normal repair would have flowed from that, organically.  Including apology.  This is how it works with normal range folks.  Always has.  

If FF refuses to address the fire, it will come off as aggressive.  It IS aggressive.  Aggression can come accross very loudly w/out fists and profanity.  We all know this.  We all feel it.  He has to acknowledge the fire.  He can do it in his own style, but to ignore the fire entirely is aggressive.

FF ignored the fire entirely AND instead demanded a woman on fire provide soothing balm to his heat rash in person and with genuine sincerity.  

Drama.

FF in role of victim, rescuing himself by ignoring the fire,  and quickly moving into a turn as  the peresecutor.   And all the fantasies that go  with these roles, the fantasy that I am a blameless and helpless victim, the fantasy that I am always due honor and respect from all peoples at all times, the fantasy that I did nothing to help support and create the situation I am in.  All of this fuels drama interactions.

When I hear a lot of talk about honor and respect (in the context of difficult interactions and being entitled to it... .not in the context of serving your country or as a moral underpinning for life in general) I get nervous and I think uh oh... .drama is coming, this is going to be sticky.

I am impressed that she didn't deepen the drama in response but actually offered a viable path out mid way ... and this was rejected in favor of more drama.  

Repair and exit.

If no repair is possible... .exit even faster.

Why choose drama?  Very good question.

[formflier]

We also know that there are people who are truly victims.

I spent about 10 years working on the CIT (Counter Illicit Trafficking) effort.  :)rugs... guns... .and also people.  Those caught up in human trafficking and slavery... .man... .that is bad stuff.  Heartbreaking...

However, taking the perception of victim can be limiting in our choices of how to respond,  

Interesting... .I'll consider that.  

Never once did I think that I was "victimized" by what the lady said to me.

However... .had I let it go... .given her the $30... .most likely I would have described it as "being used" (which is on the victim spectrum... .I guess)

I believe that is a minor part of the reason I responded that way... .the main reason... .is that is the way I have responded for most of my life... . That is the way people I respect (father, granddad... .etc etc) act.

The leaders I respected most... got along with the most... learned the most from... .would "shoot" you in a heartbeat (read a$$ chewing)... .but then it was over.  The situation was fixed... .message sent... .it's over... .your mistakes don't follow you around... .period.

Had the lady apologized... .I would have forgotten the incident... .actually would have thought more highly of her.

FF

[Notwendy]

I think to try to answer your question Cole, and why this thread has gotten so much attention is that it isn't about whether or not FF did the "right" thing, whether he is standing up for what is right or having to be right.

It was about taking this incident and looking at it in different ways, so that perhaps a new behavior could be learned.

Why do we need to learn new behaviors?

Because we are the other half of our spouses and for many of us, we are in a behavioral pattern with them, a pattern that matches our dysfunctions. It is sometimes referred to as a dance.

We do this dance well. Some of us learned it as kids. However, if we are not happy in our r/s- we need to learn new steps. The problem is that these steps are new, they are not comfortable to us. They may not even work, but we know that what we are doing doesn't always work either.

The idea- and it seemed to some that we are taking issue with FF - but that isn't the point. It is that the steps we know, the ones that feel comfortable and right to us, may be the ones that can keep us stuck, so maybe we can try something different.

[formflier]

If FF refuses to address the fire

Not my fire to address... .it's hers.  Had she been polite... .I probably would have helped her with her fire... .

FF

[Notwendy]

Victim can mean anytime we think someone is doing something to us-

If we re-frame the incident using the triangle model

Using us, being unfair, anytime we take on actions to rescue/defend ourselves- it can lead us into persecutor role.

That lady who called you was in Victim mode... .she thought you did something unfair to her ( sold her a bad stroller) and so she went over the top defending herself and so became the

Persecutor when she insulted you.  To which you stepped in as defender ( rescuer) and came off to her as a Persecutor. ... .

and so on. This is a model of relationships. It isn't intended to be critical of anyone here. It can be used for our own insights and personal growth.

[Cole]

If FF refuses to address the fire

Not my fire to address... .it's hers.  Had she been polite... .I probably would have helped her with her fire... .

FF

Exactly. She is responsible for her actions.


Notwendy,

I get what you are saying. However, working with a BPD spouse and dealing with a rude stranger are different things.   

MaybeSo,

If defending my honor or- more importantly- that of a friend or family member is drama, then I am proud to be a drama queen.

I don't look for reasons to be offended. In fact, I am pretty easygoing. But to let things go every time just to avoid "drama" is as wrong as going out and looking for it. Let's go to Aristotle's Nicomachean Ethics. The vices are excess and deficiency. The virtue is the mean, or correct amount. I think FF hit that mean with his measured response.