Getting child into therapy - need pwBPD's permission?

[How to communicate after a contentious divorce...]

I chose this forum over the legal/divorce thread as it seems more co-parenting related, but please move if appropriate... .

D8 told me last night she feels the need to walk on eggshells around her BPD mother.  She feels she cannot talk about emotional topics without mom "taking it personal".  She admits to self-censoring to avoid uncomfortable talks with her mother.  In short, she's trying to manage mom's emotions.  I've read enough about this to understand this is not good for children and want to do something about it.

BPDxw and I have joint legal custody in CA.  I would really like to get D8 into therapy, giving her a chance to talk about these issues with a 3rd party.  Do I have the right to unilaterally do this?  Or do I need my ex to go along with the idea?  I suspect any request to have her agree to therapy for D8 will be met with an interrogation and accusations of alienation.

Any advice is greatly appreciated.

[HopefulDad]

I chose this forum over the legal/divorce thread as it seems more co-parenting related, but please move if appropriate... .

D8 told me last night she feels the need to walk on eggshells around her BPD mother.  She feels she cannot talk about emotional topics without mom "taking it personal".  She admits to self-censoring to avoid uncomfortable talks with her mother.  In short, she's trying to manage mom's emotions.  I've read enough about this to understand this is not good for children and want to do something about it.

BPDxw and I have joint legal custody in CA.  I would really like to get D8 into therapy, giving her a chance to talk about these issues with a 3rd party.  Do I have the right to unilaterally do this?  Or do I need my ex to go along with the idea?  I suspect any request to have her agree to therapy for D8 will be met with an interrogation and accusations of alienation.

Any advice is greatly appreciated.

[enlighten me]

Hi hopeful

Im in the UK so don't know the legalities where you live. I just wanted to say that my son has renal failure and saw a T because of behaviour that my ex wife attributed to his condition. It wasn't helpful as the ex wife would sometimes sit in and son was worried she would be told what he said. He also saw a school counsellor and again was worried about his mum so nothing useful happened.

Is there anything that you could use to convince your ex that therapy would be good for her. Maybe school related like her performance or behaviour having changed?

My only real advice on this is your daughter needs to feel comfortable and that may mean you being kept in the dark. If you know whats being said then she may worry that her mother will also know and never open up.

I wish you all the best.

[HopefulDad]

Hi hopeful

Im in the UK so don't know the legalities where you live. I just wanted to say that my son has renal failure and saw a T because of behaviour that my ex wife attributed to his condition. It wasn't helpful as the ex wife would sometimes sit in and son was worried she would be told what he said. He also saw a school counsellor and again was worried about his mum so nothing useful happened.

Is there anything that you could use to convince your ex that therapy would be good for her. Maybe school related like her performance or behaviour having changed?

My only real advice on this is your daughter needs to feel comfortable and that may mean you being kept in the dark. If you know whats being said then she may worry that her mother will also know and never open up.

I wish you all the best.

Thanks for the reply.  And I'm sorry what your son (and you) had to go through.

Confidentiality is definitely protected so anything my D8 says to a counselor/therapist in private would be kept from both BPDxw and me.  I'm fine with that as I just want to help D8.

There's nothing concrete I can point to regarding D8 and my feeling therapy would be best.  Effectively, the only thing I can really say is ":)8 says things to me that are concerning and I cannot divulge them since she confided to me in confidence."  So I would have to generalize it somehow like, "I feel she's struggling with our divorce and could use some outside voice to talk with."

[enlighten me]

That's your in with the ex wife. Your daughter is struggling with the divorce and you don't want it to affect her any more than possible.

[PinkieV]

I believe it was either ForeverDad or david who approached the school counselor first with their concerns, which I think (but can't remember for sure!) turned into counseling for the children.  May have been Lived & Learned too.  But hopefully if the school thinks it's something to look into, your ew may go along with it?

[whirlpoollife]

PinkieV has it right ... .

I have joint legal with xh. I cannot have the kids go to a therapist without approval from xh and I must have very detailed as to why. When I told my custody L , it's PA, he said I then need the evaluation tests done on both of us and it can  backfire, and if it showed that xh has a PD, the GAL and judge will still go on what the kids say .

So, I did go the the counslor at the elementary school. ( my D and S are in high school now) and talked to her. I explained the divorce  to her and was concerned for D ( S was in the jr high) She was wonderful for D . She had a way of talking to kids without them knowing it was counseling for them.

I did not tell xh nor did I need to as the counslor from the school , when they see a need to intervene can do so. If word got back to xh, she wasnt going to tell him that I came in to talk to her first , just that yes D is talking to her .

There's many divorces and they deal with this all the time.

Then possibly from there ... .the school counslor can be the one to recommend outside therapy.

[Turkish]

I'm in Cali, too, joint legal and physical. My Ex was open to therapy after S5 told her he wanted her to die (she only sees problems when someone else causes her pain).

I was thinking the school counselr route, too. Maybe you can suggest D8 to do so? Is she mature enough to ask for an appointment?

[scraps66]

I have joint legal and in PA this requires both parents to consent to therapy if with a psychologist (Dr).  I've been told you can take a child to a social worker for therapy and not require both parents to consent.  However, many offices with social workers also require both parents to consent if there is shared custody.  You could try to find a social worker that would meet with you and your child, alone. 

I have a S10 who is under PAs from mother and I try to do what I can to get him to see a therapist.  Ex obstructs whatever I try to do with him and for him.  She doesn't recognize or care about the harm she is doing to him and would rather play the game of making me look silly than actually getting him help.  This is the roadblock you are up against.  I am almost of the mind that it would be worth the time and money to sue for primary custody if it only changed the decision making arrangement.  If I did not need to coparent decisions with ex everything would go along so much smoother. 

We have tried therapy together, coparenting and counseling for S10 and all of it is a waste of time and ineffective having exuBPDNPDw involved.  maybe things have gotten worse since our last try.

[hammerstone]

I was in the same position with my UxBPDw. I just made an appointment for D and invited UxBPDw. She has the right to say no, but knows that will make her look bad. It's a big difference versus trying to get her consent beforehand. She complains a bit, but never told me I had to stop taking D.

[Thunderstruck]

I chose this forum over the legal/divorce thread as it seems more co-parenting related, but please move if appropriate... .

D8 told me last night she feels the need to walk on eggshells around her BPD mother.  She feels she cannot talk about emotional topics without mom "taking it personal".  She admits to self-censoring to avoid uncomfortable talks with her mother.  In short, she's trying to manage mom's emotions.  I've read enough about this to understand this is not good for children and want to do something about it.

BPDxw and I have joint legal custody in CA.  I would really like to get D8 into therapy, giving her a chance to talk about these issues with a 3rd party.  Do I have the right to unilaterally do this?  Or do I need my ex to go along with the idea?  I suspect any request to have her agree to therapy for D8 will be met with an interrogation and accusations of alienation.

Any advice is greatly appreciated.

We went through this EXACT thing with my SD10 about a year and a half ago. She even said the same thing, that she was walking on eggshells around her uBPDbm.

We talked to several therapists, and all refused to treat her without uBPDbm's permission. We asked uBPDbm  to take SD10 to therapy, and she said "She doesn't need it". Then we went to court and our L said we'd like to take SD10 into T and uBPDbm agreed. Next thing we know, uBPDbm is setting up appointments and taking SD10 into T without DH's approval. It sucks being the dad, apparently your rights count less than the mother's. Anyway, uBPDbm wouldn't discuss or agree on treatment for SD10 so it ended up no therapy for her. We've been seeking full decision making and waiting on a final CO before we pursue it again. SD10 needs someone to discuss her feelings with so badly. :/ In the meantime we try to get other help from the school programs as much as possible.

[ForeverDad]

Good suggestion to get the school counselors involved.  It should be harder for a parent to block.

Whichever counselors you get, try to get experienced ones who aren't easily fooled, the obstructive parent will try to get the counselor get diverted to take sides rather than focus on what's good for the children.

My lawyer said, "Courts like counseling."  Yes, if joint custody then it may take court action to get counseling.  Also, if there are other issues with the children, ex's parenting or where your parenting is being obstructed then you could wrap them all up together for court.  The advantage of this strategy is that a judge faces a yes/no, win/lose scenario with just one issue and and from my experience they seem to prefer both parents losing something as well as winning something.*  Listing multiple issues give the judge to approve some items and deny others.  Hopefully the important ones would be approved.

* I was seeking majority time a few years ago and ex was stonewalling wanting to keep equal time.  Magistrate saw that was was primarily confrontational with me but decided to grant me majority time during the 41 week school year and mother kept equal time during the 11 week summer.  Yes, she lost but I didn't get all I asked for either.

[livednlearned]

Hi HopefulDad,

Moms/dads with BPD may think that a T is an authority figure who is judging them -- the T might discover that BPD mom is not a good parent. So she may be afraid. Your instincts to approach this carefully are really good. How you present it might make a world of difference.

Where I live, there are forensic Ts who sort of expect to go to court at some point -- that's the business they're in. In a high-conflict divorce, these Ts end up taking sides and testifying in court. That can be a good thing or bad depending on how things play out.

Then there are child psychologists who want to do therapy with your child and that's it. These T's will likely ask both parents to sign a waiver saying that they will not ask T to testify in court. All communication with D8 will be confidential.

My son's T was like this. She really wanted to build a relationship of trust. I would've love to have her testify on my behalf, but my son was unraveling and I felt he really needed a safe place. If you go this route, it might be a good idea to find a T who prefers to work with the child, and doesn't let the parent time creep into the session and take over.

If your ex is going to feel threatened, you might want to suggest it as, D8 is having trouble with xyz. Something benign, like nail biting. S14 was 8 when I first took him, and had some nervous tics. N/BPDx like the idea of fixing S14 (narcissism). I also said aloud that I wondered if the tics came from my side of the family.

When your ex feels triggered, the side of her brain preoccupied with protecting herself is going to perceive anything and everything as a threat. The key is to help her stay emotionally regulated. The goal is to get D8 into therapy without mama feeling like something is wrong with her.

It's a fine line, for sure.

Another tactic is to talk to the school family specialist. I swear the one at my son's school has wings -- she was that good. I told her everything and then she talked to the school counselor. This was to help me get psycho-educational testing for S14, so it was a little different, but related. Then from there I went and got a child psychologist who did the tests, then we went from talk of CBT to S14 getting full-blown play therapy.

The main thing is to make the decision between whether you want a T for court, or whether you want a T for D8. They both end up helping, but one will help D8 manage her feelings and thoughts, the other will help you get more leeway in terms of custody.

[ambivalentmom]

I went the school counselor route.  I told her my D12 was stressed and needed someone to talk to, but I would prefer that she speaks with the school counselor first for her recommendation.  She reccommended therapy immediately after speaking with D12.  I then setup an appointment with a therapist and emailed possible BPDex that the school counselor reccommended a therapist and D12 would be going to see Mrs. (therapist).  I gave him contact information for both in case he had any questions about why she was going.

Possible BPDex emailed me a few remarks about how she doesn't need therapy when she's with him and I need to take a look at myself if she is unhappy when she is with me, but he did not tell me that she can't go (my lawyer said he would be going against the school counselor if he did).

Possible BPDex also has always had issues with "going outside the family" with anything (ex. D12 doesn't tell me about activities at his house, but talks about activities at a friends house enthusiastically).  It was really extreme when we were married and I think it's a way to control and keep anyone from reporting him.  I always tell my D12 that I see a counselor, counselors are awesome, and they are here for you.  It's a good place to talk about things you don't want to talk to mom or dad about.

Hope this helps.

[HopefulDad]

Thank you all for the replies.  Very helpful.  I'm starting off with the school counselor/psychologist route per the recommendation of those here and IRL.  I'm not looking for ammo in court, but just want to help D8, so I'm very content to never hear a word about what is said in private sessions with D8 nor have the T testify.  ForeverDad brought up a good point about bundling several issues to take to the judge and perhaps I could win on this one while losing on others.  I do have several issues I could bundle together and let the judge dole out "wins" to each of us.

I have already had a few email exchanges with BPDxw on this.  Her initial reply was long and thoughtful, but effectively boiled down to "she seems fine to me".  I've pushed back and her latest reply was "Okay, I'll talk to her" which at least shows she's not outright dismissing my concern, but of course I expect D8 to deny any issues*, giving BPDxw reason to say, "I still don't see anything wrong."

* I asked D8 last night if she wants to talk to mom about what's on her mind and her reply was a silent :thumbdown:, followed by a silent hand puppeting of a mouth yapping away while she made an angry face.

[Thunderstruck]

Possible BPDex emailed me a few remarks about how she doesn't need therapy when she's with him and I need to take a look at myself if she is unhappy when she is with me, but he did not tell me that she can't go (my lawyer said he would be going against the school counselor if he did).

That's exactly what our uBPDbm says too. Apparently SD10 is just the perfect little angel when with her, and has meltdowns only for us because she hates us (but fails to mention how SD10 acts out at school and aftercare and babysitters, oh and if SD10 has a meltdown with her then it's because of sugar... .).   Maybe uBPDbm should share with all of us her magic trick?

[livednlearned]

My ex also gave long thoughtful responses that boiled down to "nothing wrong with S14."

He didn't want to look like the parent that wasn't supporting therapy.

In the end, if you can make things neutral, it may go better. Once you start getting very involved, and seem to be directing things, then your ex may begin to try and sabotage it.

N/BPDx saw S14 as an extension of himself. I think that's relatively common when the BPD parent has a lot of narcissism. Learning how to communicate with narcissists might help. Also BIFF emails or EAR statements (Bill Eddy's work) depending on the degree of BPD and high-conflict personality characteristics you're dealing with.

Anyway, I hope your D8 has a good counselor and feels comfortable talking about how she's feeling. It can really go a long way.

[HopefulDad]

Update: So BPDxw said she had a talk with D8 about seeing a counselor.  She claims D8 said she's "fine for now" and doesn't want to see anyone, but also said that D8 understands counseling is available if she ever changes her mind.

The bolded emailed to me is the written acknowledgement I'm looking for that should allow me to take D8 to counseling (again, without me present) and avoid any argument in court about violating joint custody down the road.

I'll talk with D8 again and see how she's feeling about seeing someone and let her know I can set something up if she wishes.  She might feel more comfortable letting me handle the logistics than her mom.

[scraps66]

This is difficult.  I'm not sure about conversations with an 8yr old about this topic.  My ex does this all the time, discusses these topics with S10 and her view of things tends to one, invalidate him because she tells him how he should feel, and two, more or less empowers him to misbehave because she finds fault with everyone but S10 and makes excuses for his bad behavior all the time.  Parents using the input of trained professionals should be making decisions on behalf of children. Period.

[david]

Looking at the courts with this part: Asking an 8 year old if they think they need a counselor would look like the child is parenting themselves. I think the court would view that as a parental decision. If ex didn't say no outright then I would do what I thought best. Discussing things with a child to get a better feel on what you should do is fine.

Also, ex said she didn't see anything when D8 is with her. My ex says things like that all the time to shift the blame on me. It's the way she interprets things and how she protects her own fragile self image. If D8 goes to a counselor and it helps then that would point to mom not seeing what you are seeing.

I have found that when I send an email to ex with anything that she can interpret as saying she is at fault she will fight back. Lots of things trigger her that would not trigger anyone else. It took the trial and error method to learn what would and would not trigger her. I am pretty good at not triggering her now and still accomplishing what I think is best for our boys.

[ForeverDad]

Looking at the courts with this part: Asking an 8 year old if they think they need a counselor would look like the child is parenting themselves. I think the court would view that as a parental decision.

I had a magistrate virtually yell at me over a comment I made about my son and school.  I was bluntly told, child does not decide.  So I agree with david, feel out your child but the decision is not the child's.

Understand too that once you begin counseling, ex may object and even take it to court but once started I don't believe court would nix it.  Overall, courts love counseling.  Also, it is easier to ask for forgiveness than permission.

Just make sure you have a perceptive and experienced counselor and not one who would be easily fooled and conned by a disordered but slickly manipulative parent.  Still, counselors hate conflict of course and it's possible D could be dropped if things got hot or pushed the joint parent permission issue.

[HopefulDad]

Thanks for the points on this being a parenting decision.  I think my daughter tells mom what she thinks she wants to hear, so when she says things like, "I'm fine now", that tune might change with me.  I'll discuss counseling with D8 again and go from there.  While I don't want the decision to be solely up to D8 in a sense of parenting herself, I do hope she'll at least buy in to the idea.  I think she will.

[ForeverDad]

The positives to describe:  The counselors can be like impartial referees with objective perspectives, on the outside looking in, sounding boards, people to come up with ideas and solutions, great resources for her.

[scraps66]

I would certainly listen as a matter of validating, but hearing things like, "I'm fine now," and hearing that D8 tries to say what mother wants to hear, that is a level of parentification.  This is where the child tries to appease the parent possibly out of fear of the parent.  It may be worthwhile to take D8 and let her be with the counselor, by herself.  This is what I have in mind for my S10.

More on the parentification from what I'm dealing with now.  My ex claims to be a voracious reader and claims to have been the sole source for S10s voracious interest in reading.  What happens now is that S10 comes to my house, armed with a book, and goes straight for the couch, "reading" the book.  He carries the book everywhere, sometimes ex even drops books off at my house when I have him with me.  He takes the book out to dinner, in the car, to the playground, etc.  So, this is one way ex invades my parenting time and a way she can have S10 doing what she wants him doing even though he's with me.

Now, how this grow, I have watched S10 read, he reads A LOT of volume, 500 page novels in two days.  Bu, when asked he can't tell me anything about the book, when I ask, "it's the same as the last book."  He feels so obligated to appease his mother that he fakes reading - this is my theory, but it goes along with other things going on.

 

[livednlearned]

I do think our bunch tends to be very worried about this -- maybe too much, if there is such a thing when coparenting with a BPD parent. Understandably, since we are often jacked up with anxiety and fear about how courts will rule.

If you are prepared to stand up and court and say, "Your honor, my D8 is a child of divorce. She desperately needed to talk in confidence with someone trained to help children process difficult feelings."

The judge won't bat an eyelash.

Your ex will say, "Your honor, my ex acted unilaterally."

And the judge will say, "What's wrong with the child going to therapy?"

Ex: "Nothing. It's just that he didn't ask my permission."

Judge: "And?"

Ex: "He's not allowed to do that. It's not written in the agreement."

Judge: "Ma'am, are you aware that the north star of our family court system is the best interests of the child, and that counseling for D8 is in her best interests?"

Ex: "Yes, that's not the point, it says in the order... ."

Judge: "Are you invited to talk to the T? Are you invited to take your D and pick her up?"

Ex: "Yes. I am not against D8 seeing a counselor. I am against ex making any decisions without my consent, and I did not get to chose the counselor."

Then the judge reprimands you for acting unilaterally, swats your hand, and then rules that D8 can continue seeing the counselor. You get the public flogging your ex wants, and D8 gets to continue therapy like you want, and the court considers that a win-win.

pwBPD get so focused on how we are not following the rules (when they do not suit them), instead of thinking like grown-ups. Thinking is so distorted, and problem-solving is such a challenge, that it can look very weird in court when the best answer they have for why something shouldn't happen is: "because it's just wrong."

My ex is high-functioning. He's an attorney. He would get in these conversations with the judge similar to what I wrote above, and end up saying something like, "Your honor, she's just selfish, egocentric, narcissistic, on a power trip... ."

And the judge would cut him off and say, "I do not tolerate name-calling in my court. Explain to me how this issue is having an adverse affect on the minor child."

[david]

Backing up what lnl said. I have been yelled at by several judges yet the decision was what I was seeking. I think judges do that to make it feel both parties win something.

The first time it happened to me I was genuinely confused because the ruling was exactly what I had in my petition yet I was literally yelled at by the judge. It happened a few more times since then so it doesn't phase me anymore. It's just like ex's emails when they don't make sense. I simply let it go.

[livednlearned]

I have been yelled at by several judges yet the decision was what I was seeking. I think judges do that to make it feel both parties win something.

Same with me -- almost every favorable ruling I was simultaneously reprimanded in court. After the second try at getting the title to my car, which I ended up getting, the judge lectured me for 5 minutes on how department of motor vehicles works. 

It's like taking a test. The more confident you feel, the greater the chance you failed the test. The worse you feel, the greater the chance you aced it.

I learned from the appeals process that a ruling can be overturned if the filing party can prove there was favoritism. I have a feeling that's why judges are rougher with the people they are ruling in favor of -- they don't want their rulings overruled on appeal.

[scraps66]

And the judge will say, "What's wrong with the child going to therapy?"

I must have found the only custody master in the country that would deny getting a child therapy.  I had petitioned for this, and the master said no, but that we would both get "psychologicals."  I thought that was a great compromise, but then three trips back to court over almost two years and a couple badly written orders, I still didn't have ex's psychologcal evaluation.  And I STILL don't! 

[livednlearned]

And the judge will say, "What's wrong with the child going to therapy?"

I must have found the only custody master in the country that would deny getting a child therapy.  I had petitioned for this, and the master said no, but that we would both get "psychologicals."  I thought that was a great compromise, but then three trips back to court over almost two years and a couple badly written orders, I still didn't have ex's psychologcal evaluation.  And I STILL don't! 

You have a tough situation, Scrapps -- if I'm reading your situation correctly, there were already many therapeutic professionals involved in one way or another, like OT and wraparound services through the school and whatnot. And your ex has some training in the field.

I apologize if I have some of the details wrong. I do think there is nothing worse than a bad judge. There are some in my district that are awful -- and I mean atrocious. It sounds like you have someone who is tone deaf.