How to help a friend lost in the FOG?

[Beware of Junk Psychology...]

Have a friend beeing in a BPD FOG in almost 20 years. How do I get him understand that he "deserves" to break out of the fog, and stop feeling guilt and responibility for another person?

[borderdude]

Have a friend beeing in a BPD FOG in almost 20 years. How do I get him understand that he "deserves" to break out of the fog, and stop feeling guilt and responibility for another person?

[eeks]

Hi borderdude,

Supporting friends or family members who are carrying negative effects on their lives, resulting from interactions with a pwBPD, is an important topic separate from codependency, so I have given it its own discussion thread. 

It can be challenging to figure out how to help and support others in processing painful or traumatic relationships and have the lives we know they can have. 

You've said that your friend feels guilt and responsibility for another person.  This in my experience is a difficult pattern to break (I'm still working on it myself), in part because it tends to relate to a "survival strategy" the person developed in their family of origin, in order to feel safe and attached to parents who were unsafe, frightening or too distracted by their own issues to parent effectively.

[LifeIsBeautiful]

Personally breaking out of the fog was one of the hardest thing for me to do. It was like taking a leap off the cliff, you don't know where you will land and if you will survive it. I have some suggestions below. Good luck.

1. Introduce him to the resources in this forum - understand the situation for what it is without emotion

2. Does he realize and accept that he in experiencing FOG?

3. If yes, does he want to change it?

Have a friend beeing in a BPD FOG in almost 20 years. How do I get him understand that he "deserves" to break out of the fog, and stop feeling guilt and responibility for another person?

[Visitor]

Have a friend beeing in a BPD FOG in almost 20 years. How do I get him understand that he "deserves" to break out of the fog, and stop feeling guilt and responibility for another person?

Castration?

Jokes aside people often complain about their partners but go back to them time and time again without taking even a shred of advice you offer.

My advice to you is don’t get involved. If he doesn’t want it himself you aren’t going to convince him.

You will only end up being the bad guy. 

[Panda39]

Keep in mind he has to want to make changes you can't do it for him and you can't make him do anything is isn't ready to do or doesn't want to do. 

If you haven't already you might want to share your own experience with him.  Tell him you were in the FOG too, what FOG is and it looks to you like he has some of that going on too and how you were able to get clear of the FOG. Just have a conversation about it.

Panda39

[borderdude]

Thankyou for the replies for my poorly constructed question!

I have helped him to the extend that I have explained how the "engine works", as for the triangulation, push pull, the addictive manipulation, her making him guilty for not caretaking, etc.

He get some lighbulbs now and then, but is still in the guilt fog because he is afraid of her become worce as she is abusing drugs and needs his suppport. It is a destructive circle killing them both.

He himself has developed an addiction towards alcohol, and is literally drinking himself to death, so I try to do my part.

She always calls him for yelling manipulation , guilt throwing , asking him for stuff. By taking the phone she is always in his path.

[eeks]

Castration?

Jokes aside people often complain about their partners but go back to them time and time again without taking even a shred of advice you offer.

My advice to you is don’t get involved. If he doesn’t want it himself you aren’t going to convince him.

You will only end up being the bad guy.  

I agree with you that people often don't take advice.  I think that's because their self-awareness is at the level it's at at the time, and so that can create the situation where they are self-aware enough to know something is wrong, but not self-aware enough to take the actions they know would help them.

I think borderdude's friend can keep his testicles though, because I'd say the main reason why people get "stuck" complaining but not taking action to change, is because they have opposing feelings and desires they are not fully conscious of.  

A personal example, I have felt guilt and shame for a long time, about my failures in life, how they make me unlovable.  I know this is unproductive.  Some people say "... .but if I wasn't hard on myself, I'd have no discipline" - not me.  I fully know that guilt and shame are instantly debilitating to me even in small doses.  

So why can't I stop?

A more fleshed out awareness of this is pretty new for me, so I am not too sure about it, but something that's been emerging lately in my therapy and personal reflections is that instead of blaming myself for my shortcomings, if I went beyond just stating the facts of my upbringing into saying "something was wrong in my family", I would be disloyal, accused of being selfish and spoiled, should be embarrassed, etc.

I recently read this https://bpdfamily.com/message_board/index.php?topic=108970.0  which rang a lot of bells.  One of the big challenges for me is that in my childhood, all my material needs and many of my wants were met, and my mother at least had a strong conviction to be a better parent to me than her own parents were to her.  So people think I'm lucky.

But the dynamic of my parents' respective FOOs persisted, especially when they were under stress, and I am starting to see now how the brutal perfectionism might be rooted in the family system, in the sense that if I express negative feelings in public to other adults, someone might know that something is wrong in our family.  I asked my therapist today why my parents would have been so scrupulous about me not revealing any such thing. Why any crack in the armour was to be so carefully avoided.  It was at the end of the session so there may be more to it than this, but he said, because then they would have to face their own pain.

So you're right, Visitor, it's pretty difficult to "convince someone" to change.  The dynamics I am describing here are very difficult to face, and people flinch away from them, I know I do.  That's not because they're wimps, but because these behaviours were once a matter of survival (how to maintain the necessary bond to dysfunctional parents).

The only thing I know of that lessens the pain is that you don't have to do it alone.  It's also better if there's some sort of a shame-free way of conveying that people can have mixed feelings, or conflicting needs.  Part of you really wants this, and part of you is deathly terrified of it.  (For me, the phrasing of a bad behaviour having a "payoff", and even the idea of "taking responsibility", are too moralistic and place too much implied emphasis on using conscious willpower to decide to do something more effectively.  Willpower comes into play at a certain point, but it's mostly about self-awareness.)

Is your friend in therapy?  Have you told him about bpdfamily?

[borderdude]

Castration?

Jokes aside people often complain about their partners but go back to them time and time again without taking even a shred of advice you offer.

My advice to you is don’t get involved. If he doesn’t want it himself you aren’t going to convince him.

You will only end up being the bad guy.  

I agree with you that people often don't take advice.  I think that's because their self-awareness is at the level it's at at the time, and so that can create the situation where they are self-aware enough to know something is wrong, but not self-aware enough to take the actions they know would help them.

I think borderdude's friend can keep his testicles though, because I'd say the main reason why people get "stuck" complaining but not taking action to change, is because they have opposing feelings and desires they are not fully conscious of.  

A personal example, I have felt guilt and shame for a long time, about my failures in life, how they make me unlovable.  I know this is unproductive.  Some people say "... .but if I wasn't hard on myself, I'd have no discipline" - not me.  I fully know that guilt and shame are instantly debilitating to me even in small doses.  

So why can't I stop?

A more fleshed out awareness of this is pretty new for me, so I am not too sure about it, but something that's been emerging lately in my therapy and personal reflections is that instead of blaming myself for my shortcomings, if I went beyond just stating the facts of my upbringing into saying "something was wrong in my family", I would be disloyal, accused of being selfish and spoiled, should be embarrassed, etc.

I recently read this https://bpdfamily.com/message_board/index.php?topic=108970.0  which rang a lot of bells.  One of the big challenges for me is that in my childhood, all my material needs and many of my wants were met, and my mother at least had a strong conviction to be a better parent to me than her own parents were to her.  So people think I'm lucky.

But the dynamic of my parents' respective FOOs persisted, especially when they were under stress, and I am starting to see now how the brutal perfectionism might be rooted in the family system, in the sense that if I express negative feelings in public to other adults, someone might know that something is wrong in our family.  I asked my therapist today why my parents would have been so scrupulous about me not revealing any such thing. Why any crack in the armour was to be so carefully avoided.  It was at the end of the session so there may be more to it than this, but he said, because then they would have to face their own pain.

So you're right, Visitor, it's pretty difficult to "convince someone" to change.  The dynamics I am describing here are very difficult to face, and people flinch away from them, I know I do.  That's not because they're wimps, but because these behaviours were once a matter of survival (how to maintain the necessary bond to dysfunctional parents).

The only thing I know of that lessens the pain is that you don't have to do it alone.  It's also better if there's some sort of a shame-free way of conveying that people can have mixed feelings, or conflicting needs.  Part of you really wants this, and part of you is deathly terrified of it.  (For me, the phrasing of a bad behaviour having a "payoff", and even the idea of "taking responsibility", are too moralistic and place too much implied emphasis on using conscious willpower to decide to do something more effectively.  Willpower comes into play at a certain point, but it's mostly about self-awareness.)

Is your friend in therapy?  Have you told him about bpdfamily?

Thank-you for this engaging reply!

No he is not in therapy, 'he endure problems interpreting english, he for shure got codependent issues, and the guilt is the main factor. He struggle with "It's my fault she is using drugs", "If I stop supporting her , she might die or going with bad people", "It is because of me ... .whatever"-

The more he is engaging in her life, the more she is setting him up for committing more errors, leading to more guilt and the circle is repeating.

[Panda39]

He himself has developed an addiction towards alcohol, and is literally drinking himself to death... .

It sounds like your friend is self-medicating, dulling the pain.  But dulling the pain can make it harder to fight for himself.  I don't know where you are in the world but maybe Alcoholics Anonymous would be a good place for your friend to seek help with the alcohol and a place to start working on the other issues that he has going on.  Again he will only do this if he wants to... .however it wouldn't hurt to make the suggestion.

Panda39

[borderdude]

He himself has developed an addiction towards alcohol, and is literally drinking himself to death... .

It sounds like your friend is self-medicating, dulling the pain.  But dulling the pain can make it harder to fight for himself.  I don't know where you are in the world but maybe Alcoholics Anonymous would be a good place for your friend to seek help with the alcohol and a place to start working on the other issues that he has going on.  Again he will only do this if he wants to... .however it wouldn't hurt to make the suggestion.

Panda39

You are initially correct, he got several attempts in treating his addiction and succeeded. The problem is starting when he got in touch with this woman , and after some manipulation and guilt he then fails and starts drinking again. I therefore told him: Your PROBLEM is codependency, your SYMPTOM is alcohol addiction

[Panda39]

borderdude,

You are a good friend, but unless your friend wants to make changes and wants help the best you may be able to do for him is listen and be available when or if he decides to seek help.

I can tell you care for your friend but the only person that can fix your friend's problems is him. You can support him and make suggestions but he must take action and only he can do that.

Panda39

[borderdude]

He himself has developed an addiction towards alcohol, and is literally drinking himself to death... .

It sounds like your friend is self-medicating, dulling the pain.  But dulling the pain can make it harder to fight for himself.  I don't know where you are in the world but maybe Alcoholics Anonymous would be a good place for your friend to seek help with the alcohol and a place to start working on the other issues that he has going on.  Again he will only do this if he wants to... .however it wouldn't hurt to make the suggestion.

Panda39

You are initially correct, he got several attempts in treating his addiction and succeeded. The problem is starting when he got in touch with this woman , and after some manipulation and guilt he then fails and starts drinking again. I therefore told him: Your PROBLEM is codependency, your SYMPTOM is alcohol addiction

You are definitely in to something. he for sure want change, but prefer fishing for sympathy , drinking and complaining instead of face the truth the hard way. I have read it mention: "You never get a closure with a borderline", and this is a case, he for sure will have this degrading rs with this woman the rest of his life.

[eeks]

Thank-you for this engaging reply!

No he is not in therapy, 'he endure problems interpreting english, he for shure got codependent issues, and the guilt is the main factor. He struggle with "It's my fault she is using drugs", "If I stop supporting her , she might die or going with bad people", "It is because of me ... .whatever"-

What language does he speak?  Do you and he live in an English-speaking country?  I'm sure somebody can find books or websites for you about co-dependency, in his language.

Do you think he would be willing to see a psychotherapist via phone or Skype sessions, if there's no one locally who speaks his language?

A 12-step group, whether it's for alcohol or codependency, sounds like a good idea too, because then he will get to hear from many other people who have been through similar things, and maybe after he hears it enough times it will start to sink in.

Keeping all of that in mind, it's true, what people here are saying, that he needs to be ready and willing to seek help, and it must be very hard for you as his friend to watch this happening.  And that may indeed be an obstacle.  But I don't think language has to be. 

[borderdude]

Thank-you for this engaging reply!

No he is not in therapy, 'he endure problems interpreting english, he for shure got codependent issues, and the guilt is the main factor. He struggle with "It's my fault she is using drugs", "If I stop supporting her , she might die or going with bad people", "It is because of me ... .whatever"-

What language does he speak?  :)o you and he live in an English-speaking country?  I'm sure somebody can find books or websites for you about co-dependency, in his language.

Do you think he would be willing to see a psychotherapist via phone or Skype sessions, if there's no one locally who speaks his language?

A 12-step group, whether it's for alcohol or codependency, sounds like a good idea too, because then he will get to hear from many other people who have been through similar things, and maybe after he hears it enough times it will start to sink in.

Keeping all of that in mind, it's true, what people here are saying, that he needs to be ready and willing to seek help, and it must be very hard for you as his friend to watch this happening.  And that may indeed be an obstacle.  But I don't think language has to be.  

We are talking about Norwegian, well he has been trough a program targeting alcohol, a 12 step alike thing. Hes problem is a compounded in nature  or a mix between codependency and alcohol or even more complex, so they have not addressed the codependency issues in the program, and I believe that the latter is the real problem and the alcohol is one of many symptoms. At least I can say that the destructive RS he got with that borderline woman is the final drop for him failing being sober. He seems to be way over too mixed up to see the whole picture and 20 years with this guilt is I suppose tearing anyone apart if they endure it long enough.

Looking up local doctors treating codependency looks like a good call, but of course as they say : First become sober , then solve your issues. Anyway thankyou.

[eeks]

We are talking about Norwegian, well he has been trough a program targeting alcohol, a 12 step alike thing. Hes problem is a compounded in nature  or a mix between codependency and alcohol or even more complex, so they have not addressed the codependency issues in the program, and I believe that the latter is the real problem and the alcohol is one of many symptoms. At least I can say that the destructive RS he got with that borderline woman is the final drop for him failing being sober. He seems to be way over too mixed up to see the whole picture and 20 years with this guilt is I suppose tearing anyone apart if they endure it long enough.

Looking up local doctors treating codependency looks like a good call, but of course as they say : First become sober , then solve your issues. Anyway thankyou.

We can keep working on having knowledge of resources available if and when your friend is ready to use them.

I'm also curious, borderdude, what's going on for you as you have these interactions with your friend?

What emotions are you feeling? 

[borderdude]

We are talking about Norwegian, well he has been trough a program targeting alcohol, a 12 step alike thing. Hes problem is a compounded in nature  or a mix between codependency and alcohol or even more complex, so they have not addressed the codependency issues in the program, and I believe that the latter is the real problem and the alcohol is one of many symptoms. At least I can say that the destructive RS he got with that borderline woman is the final drop for him failing being sober. He seems to be way over too mixed up to see the whole picture and 20 years with this guilt is I suppose tearing anyone apart if they endure it long enough.

Looking up local doctors treating codependency looks like a good call, but of course as they say : First become sober , then solve your issues. Anyway thankyou.

We can keep working on having knowledge of resources available if and when your friend is ready to use them.

I'm also curious, borderdude, what's going on for you as you have these interactions with your friend?

What emotions are you feeling?  

I am really mixed myself, I cannot say wholehearted that I feel my effort is being fully utilized, he does seem to avoid responsibility to some extent, avoiding the the reality. I am waiting for him to finally wake up and take charge in his life, and not try do make other people get involved in his problems,

I was looking at Gordon Ramsey's Kitchen nightmares lately, and got some parallel thoughts. Some people has been walking in their own dirt too long, and being blinded by their own style of running their lives, lost their perspective.

I minimize my time with him, but when I pay a visit I make use of tough love, and try to wake him up, make him seek positive environments and new patterns in his daily routine. There is a time for everything, and he has engaged in fixing this woman nearly 20 years, so I tell him : You have given half your life, now it is about saving yourself. You are not going to fix anybody in your poor state, also I push the knowledge about boundary settings.

[eeks]

I am really mixed myself, I cannot say wholehearted that I feel my effort is being fully utilized, he does seem to avoid responsibility to some extent, avoiding the the reality. I am waiting for him to finally wake up and take charge in his life, and not try do make other people get involved in his problems,

I was looking at Gordon Ramsey's Kitchen nightmares lately, and got some parallel thoughts. Some people has been walking in their own dirt too long, and being blinded by their own style of running their lives, lost their perspective.

I minimize my time with him, but when I pay a visit I make use of tough love, and try to wake him up, make him seek positive environments and new patterns in his daily routine. There is a time for everything, and he has engaged in fixing this woman nearly 20 years, so I tell him : You have given half your life, now it is about saving yourself. You are not going to fix anybody in your poor state, also I push the knowledge about boundary settings.

Right, so you've told me what you're doing, with your friend.  But what are you feeling?  How do you feel when your friend seems to refuse to change?  

You are using "tough love" and so far, it's not working.  Would you be willing to consider trying a different approach?  

Here is one link about validation on this site https://bpdfamily.com/content/communication-skills-dont-be-invalidating, but there are more resources on it here and elsewhere.

The key to remember is that you can validate someone's feelings, without agreeing with them.  Even if you can see that what your friend is doing is harming him, it sounds to me as though he is in a lot of pain right now.  He is abusing alcohol, and has been in a relationship with a pwBPD for 20 years.  Even if you can see how his own mistakes contributed to him ending up in that situation, that's still a lot of pain built up over a lot of years.

He may be in so much pain that he is not able to see the truth of his situation yet.  He may need someone to recognize, acknowledge and empathize with his pain first.  It's possible that if someone does that for him, he will come to his own truth in his own time, and be more willing to come up with his own solutions for his problems.

This blog post I read this morning seems to apply to your situation.  The kind of empathic listening she talks about is difficult.  I am still working on learning how to do it, and I don't know if I have ever met anyone who is able to consistently act with this kind of presence.  I think it's an important skill to learn, though.

https://www.psychologytoday.com/blog/inviting-monkey-tea/201509/what-we-want-most-relationships-rarely-get?utm_source=FacebookPost&utm_medium=FBPost&utm_campaign=FBPost

[borderdude]

I am really mixed myself, I cannot say wholehearted that I feel my effort is being fully utilized, he does seem to avoid responsibility to some extent, avoiding the the reality. I am waiting for him to finally wake up and take charge in his life, and not try do make other people get involved in his problems,

I was looking at Gordon Ramsey's Kitchen nightmares lately, and got some parallel thoughts. Some people has been walking in their own dirt too long, and being blinded by their own style of running their lives, lost their perspective.

I minimize my time with him, but when I pay a visit I make use of tough love, and try to wake him up, make him seek positive environments and new patterns in his daily routine. There is a time for everything, and he has engaged in fixing this woman nearly 20 years, so I tell him : You have given half your life, now it is about saving yourself. You are not going to fix anybody in your poor state, also I push the knowledge about boundary settings.

Right, so you've told me what you're doing, with your friend.  But what are you feeling?  How do you feel when your friend seems to refuse to change?  

You are using "tough love" and so far, it's not working.  Would you be willing to consider trying a different approach?  

Here is one link about validation on this site https://bpdfamily.com/content/communication-skills-dont-be-invalidating, but there are more resources on it here and elsewhere.

The key to remember is that you can validate someone's feelings, without agreeing with them.  Even if you can see that what your friend is doing is harming him, it sounds to me as though he is in a lot of pain right now.  He is abusing alcohol, and has been in a relationship with a pwBPD for 20 years.  Even if you can see how his own mistakes contributed to him ending up in that situation, that's still a lot of pain built up over a lot of years.

He may be in so much pain that he is not able to see the truth of his situation yet.  He may need someone to recognize, acknowledge and empathize with his pain first.  It's possible that if someone does that for him, he will come to his own truth in his own time, and be more willing to come up with his own solutions for his problems.

This blog post I read this morning seems to apply to your situation.  The kind of empathic listening she talks about is difficult.  I am still working on learning how to do it, and I don't know if I have ever met anyone who is able to consistently act with this kind of presence.  I think it's an important skill to learn, though.

https://www.psychologytoday.com/blog/inviting-monkey-tea/201509/what-we-want-most-relationships-rarely-get?utm_source=FacebookPost&utm_medium=FBPost&utm_campaign=FBPost

Or the short story   I feel like trying to engage a kid stand up and face the reality of a grown man, but as you suggested it creates an invalidating dynamic between us. I will dig into your material and try another approach. Looks very good, thankyou again.

[eeks]

Or the short story   I feel like trying to engage a kid stand up and face the reality of a grown man, but as you suggested it creates an invalidating dynamic between us. I will dig into your material and try another approach. Looks very good, thankyou again.

You're welcome.  Let us know how it goes.