Stalking

[VIDEO: "What is parental alienation?"]

Not really sure where to start with this one.

I recently wrote a post called 'stalking but ignoring' which is pretty much what my BPD is presently doing to me.

I have now come to discover that on top of calling me (silent hang up calls from different numbers) he's is now doing the same to my ex partner whom I have children with! (Up to 4 times daily). My ex partner is not aware who it is and I only discovered this when he told me about all the strange calls he's been getting the last month. I know implicitally it's my ex BPD.

The relationship with my ex BPD as it stands is... Relationship been over for 7 months, I want him back, he can't sustain splitting me white for more than a few days and I'm black again. Ignores me, stalks me and the whole cycle starts again.

Does anyone have any idea what is behind this behaviour?

I have thought about the possibility of a high dopamine BPD. In other words he just loves the thrill of it all. The hunt and the chase aspect?

Also has anyone got any information on Mastersons borderline triad theory and how it plays out in BPDs who are obsessed with and person once the relationship is over?

[Lou12]

Not really sure where to start with this one.

I recently wrote a post called 'stalking but ignoring' which is pretty much what my BPD is presently doing to me.

I have now come to discover that on top of calling me (silent hang up calls from different numbers) he's is now doing the same to my ex partner whom I have children with! (Up to 4 times daily). My ex partner is not aware who it is and I only discovered this when he told me about all the strange calls he's been getting the last month. I know implicitally it's my ex BPD.

The relationship with my ex BPD as it stands is... Relationship been over for 7 months, I want him back, he can't sustain splitting me white for more than a few days and I'm black again. Ignores me, stalks me and the whole cycle starts again.

Does anyone have any idea what is behind this behaviour?

I have thought about the possibility of a high dopamine BPD. In other words he just loves the thrill of it all. The hunt and the chase aspect?

Also has anyone got any information on Mastersons borderline triad theory and how it plays out in BPDs who are obsessed with and person once the relationship is over?

[Lucky Jim]

Hey Lou12, On one hand, you saying that your BPDx is stalking you by calling from various numbers and hanging up; on the other hand, you are saying that you want him back and don't really mind the stalking, except that he's also doing it to your ex-partner with whom you have children.  Do I have that right?  Do you really want to invite BPD craziness back into your life?  If you hope to recycle, that's OK.  Many of us (including me) have done it.

LuckyJim

[JRT]

I am curious about the same thing... .mine broke up with me then blocked me and then some... .I have never even spoken with her after the fact and its been a year. Yes I was also getting silent calls, caught her stalking me on social media and know that she reached out to a friend of mine that I did not know when she and I were together and as speaking with her!

Meanwhile, she responded to a text that I sent her after 9 months of NC (Sorry that it ended this way, wish it could have ended much differently) by having a lawyer threaten me with a PPO (I laughed at him)! Frankly, I think that she is obsessed but I cannot prove too much.

What the hell is it: its like they have one foot in hating and avoiding and the other foot in wanting back in!

[Lou12]

Yes JRT it makes no sense and I'd love to have some idea as to what's behind it. The weird thing is I honestly don't think that my ex BPD would think that I would find out he was giving my partner which makes the motive for his call to my ex ex partner even more bazaar!

Yes Jim, I miss him terribly, the stalking is a weird comfort to me that let's me know he's not moving on.

I know I could contact him but he splits me within days and I end up back to square one. I am doing the only option I feel I have left to explore and that's to do nothing and hope he eventually comes to me

[JRT]

The only thing that I can figure is that on some level, that she misses me incredible while the BPD maintains a hold on her splitting me. She must be highly conflicted on a day to day basis to say the least! And/or she checks in to see if I have replaced her or moved on. Just guesses on my part.

I am coming upon exactly 1 year this Friday. Even though I have been experiencing this, I really don't think that I will hear from her again.

[Lou12]

Yes I the same in my thinking as it's the only thing that makes sense to me.

He misses me but I'm just to much of a risk for hurting him!

It's such a tough blow to be dealt when you just want that someone in your arms

[JRT]

Yes I the same in my thinking as it's the only thing that makes sense to me.

He misses me but I'm just to much of a risk for hurting him!

Mine actually demonstrates profound fear at the prospect from what I gather.

It's such a tough blow to be dealt when you just want that someone in your arms

I feel the same way... .sorry

[GreenEyedMonster]

I'm in the same boat.  Mine is TERRIFIED of seeing me, got really angry that I e-mailed him and . . . is still stalking me.

I've now removed any visible signs of activity from the site where he can see me.  I'll be curious to see what he does next to get his "fix."  He no longer knows where I live, not even the city.

[HappyNihilist]

Also has anyone got any information on Mastersons borderline triad theory and how it plays out in BPDs who are obsessed with and person once the relationship is over?

Masterson's concept of the borderline triad is that all self-activation leads to anxiety/depression that leads to defense.

What Masterson means by activation is an attempt to separate and individuate - like when the pwBPD expresses their needs, wants, etc.

This attempt to individuate causes separation anxiety and abandonment depression. The pwBPD reacts with self-destructive defense mechanisms to soothe the anxiety and depression.

This plays out continually throughout the pwBPD's life, unless it's addressed in therapy. It's by no means restrained to relationships. For example, a pwBPD might be promoted for doing great work, become anxious, and blow off work for a week to go on a bender.

The triad dynamic can play out in many ways after a relationship is over, but I'm not sure that stalking fits into the concept. That's more about control over another person. The borderline triad is about the pwBPD regaining a sense of control over themselves and their own fears and depression.

James F. Masterson, M.D.

Borderline Personality Disorder (BPD) is due to a developmental arrest of the self and the ego in the pre-oedipal stage, approximately between the ages of two to three. I have called the key psychodynamic theme that results The Disorders of the Self Triad: Self-activation leads to separation anxiety and abandonment depression which leads to self-destructive defenses. This dynamic is precipitated by real later life situations that require self-assertion and autonomous functioning or by events that involve separation.

These events interrupt the defenses, the patient begins to experience the abandonment depression and then defends by giving up self-assertion and activating self-destructive defenses whose symptoms can vary from obesity to anorexia, from clinging to others to distancing from others, from sexual promiscuity to the avoidance of sex, from alcoholism to drug addiction.

Does this help, Lou? There are several 'triad' concepts in psychology, and I want to make sure I understood your question correctly.

[Lou12]

Hi happy, thanks for the reply.

The reason I posted about Mastersons triad theory was because of a comment left by someone on another website. Basically this person was discussing how a BPD may act at the end of a relationship. He said the worse case is 'you don't want the BPD to play out Mastersons triad theory as this can result in obsessive stalking, anger and avoiding the BPD at all costs as they have the potential to cause you serious physical harm'!

I tried to google this theory but was unable to get much information on the subject. This is what my BPD is doing to me, obsessive stalking, anger, splitting me black to white for a few days then back to black again. I'm pretty sure it's due to him triggering all his BPD symptoms when he's communicating with me and therefore he has no choice but to avoid me at all costs but really wants me on the other hand.

I don't know how to deal with this because nothing I do/say stops him triggering! Any thoughts/solutions?

[Lou12]

To add...

My logic is that... I love a cigarette, but every time I smoke one it gives me a panic attack. I desperately crave having one but I want to avoid the panic attack at all costs! Could that be the same analogy with me?

What would my solution be...

Avoid cigarettes altogether and ease myself off the addiction!

Keep trying a cigarette interminttantly to see if it still causes my panic.

Deal with my panic before lighting another cigarette.

When I'm desperate for a fix off my cigarette I try again, the panic returns. I then become angry that the panic is still there so I feel stronger than ever that the cigarettes must go! Except after a short time I miss the effect my cigarette has on me and I start fantasising about having one again and so the cycle begins... .!

Possibly a very stupid analogy but that kinda makes sense to me!

What are others thoughts?

[Lou12]

Sorry I'm waffling now but this makes sense to me!

He's angry because he believes I'm the cause of his triggers and if only I could understand him better then I wouldn't trigger him... is his thought process! His has basically said to me I'm the reason why his behaviours play out but I couldn't understand what he meant because I wasn't doing anything. He won't internalise the trigger as being because of him and deal with it, he just get angry with me and projects it on to me and splits me black for causing him to feel that way.

He then thinks she can't be the right girl because the right girl wouldn't cause me so much pain... I must get rid of her.

A week later... I miss her... .

Help me solve this dilemma?

[Lou12]

I can't believe I've cracked it...

When I'm panicked by the cigarette I absolutely despise the cigarette and I must find a way not to want that cigarette because of what it's doing to me!

So a plan...

Do I ignore him for a while?

Do I contact him? If so how would I play it?

Presently I'm split alternate few days from black to white so I know I need to catch him on a white day but I could accomplish this by playing into his hands a small amount on social media.

Sorry so many questions but it's a total epiphany that makes total sense to me!

[Lou12]

Mmm...

What would make me want that cigarette more?

Someone telling me I could never have a cigarette again?

Leaving some time so I forget about the memory of the panic attack?

Solutions?

Apols once again for the waffle about cigarettes... lolling!

[GreenEyedMonster]

When I'm panicked by the cigarette I absolutely despise the cigarette and I must find a way not to want that cigarette because of what it's doing to me!

Yeah, I think you got it here.  pwBPD, I think, resent the fact that factors outside themselves can control their feelings so much, so they seek to control those things in return.  They simultaneously want something and resent the fact that that thing has the power to make them happy -- or not.  

The problem with trying to "solve" this is that delusions can persist in ways you wouldn't expect.  I had another boyfriend with severe relationship anxiety, and I broke up with him.  He was so anxious about the relationship and my expectations that he actually failed to notice that I broke it off -- I am not kidding -- and persisted in his horrible anxiety about whether or not he was a good boyfriend.  So you can't always reason with crazy.

Same thing with my exBPD.  I have been conspicuously dating other people and avoiding him for nearly two months.  He still thinks I'm stalking him and trying to rekindle the relationship.  He can't possibly have evidence of either of those things.

I don't think it's possible to "rig" a situation where the pwBPD will see the light.  Sorry to say that.

While I think that typical stalking is a way to control others, I think for pwBPD it's a way to maintain a connection, albeit a negative one, to a bonding partner.

[Lucky Jim]

Hey Lou and Greeneyed, Yeah, I think you both cracked the code!   Nicely put.  In some ways, it is another reflection of what I refer to as the paradox of BPD.  The pwBPD wants love but behaves in unloving fashion.  They fear abandonment but will drive the Non away.  They seek stability but act out in turbulent ways.  Their conduct is designed to accomplish that which they hope to avoid.  And on and on.  The bottom line: it's often a damned if you do, damned if you don't scenario, so I don't have any particular solution for you, Lou.     My T once gave me this piece of advice: "If something is crazy, drop it."

LuckyJim

[Waddams]

Going back to the cigarette analogy - ask yourself what is feeding the need for a cigarette?  What are trying to satisfy in yourself, what is underlying the want?  And since the cigarette has an obvious unhealthy side effect in the form of an anxiety attack - now the question becomes what are you trying to satisfy in yourself and what is a better, healthier way to do it?

By the same token - with your BPD - what are you trying to satisfy in yourself by recycling?  Knowing that recycling will have unhealthy side effects such as reintroducing drama and more emotional injury to you, then progress next to how can you satisfy whatever the need is that is driving you to seek a recycle in a healthier way?  There's more at work in your mind and emotions, something underlying your desire to recycle with a BPD.  What is it?  How can you address it in a way that is healthier than recycling with a BPD?

[Lou12]

I know Waddams, I've been seeking within and I need to do further work.

I do honestly think I would get over this if he left me alone but he's torturing me with these phone calls. I've cut right down on looking at his social media, I haven't reached out like I usually do but he won't let me get over him which adds to my internal confusion and pain.

Changing my number is not an option to me. It's wired to 3 business'

[GreenEyedMonster]

[quote author=Lou12 link=topic=283375.msg12676190#msg1267

I do honestly think I would get over this if he left me alone but he's torturing me with these phone calls. I've cut right down on looking at his social media, I haven't reached out like I usually do but he won't let me get over him which adds to my internal confusion and pain.[/quote]
6190 date=1443132548]I know exactly what you mean.  My ex's strong feelings about receiving an e-mail from me, along with his constant stalking of the groups I socialize with (still last couple days) show me that he's still getting something from the relationship.  But what?  Why stay in touch?

[GreenEyedMonster]

If you are interested in this, you might also consider looking up "ideas of reference."  PsychCentral has a simple definition:  ":)elusions where one interprets innocuous events as highly personally significant."

My ex definitely suffers from ideas/delusions of reference.  He has social anxiety, which in itself is built on ideas of reference -- the idea that other people's mannerisms, reactions, statements, etc. in a public situation are all a commentary on whether or not he is a good person and whether or not they like him.  In truth, people react the way they do often because they are tired, distracted, interested in someone else, stressed about work, etc.  It is not all about YOU.

The problem with ideas of reference is that it makes it really hard for a pwBPD to change their thinking.  For example, as long as I'm present on a social media website where my ex is, he will interpret everything I do as having something to do with him.  When I began joining more lists to get out more -- nothing to do with him -- he hid his profile so that I couldn't see what lists he was on.  He assumed I was looking for him.  When I signed up for a dating event on one of them, he probably assumed I did it to make a statement to him.  So nothing I do to show that I've "moved on" is going to accomplish that, because he reads everything I do as an attempt to get him back.

When I disappear, he'll read it that way, too, at first.  But there will be a point where he can no longer support that belief.  That will happen when he keeps checking on me (which he does every couple days) and finds no little trail of fun breadcrumbs to follow.  Then he'll probably feel abandoned.

[Lou12]

Hey GEM

I refer this back again to my cigarette theory.

I desperately want the cigarette but it gives me panic attacks. If I can just get rid of the cigarette then the panic attacks will go. Every time I fantasise about the cigarette I remember all the good things about smoking it and I want to light up another. I light up the cigarette and the panic grow. I stump it out... I f@cking now hate this cigarette, it's causing me so much anguish, I've got to remove the cigarettes from my life it's the only way the panic attacks will stop.

But after the anger subsides and the memory of the panic attack fades I begin once again to fantasise about the cigarettes and when the over whelming desire strikes me to light up again I just can't help myself but I know I absolutely hate that cigarette and how I am so dependant and addicted to wanting one.

I imagine this confusion is how my BPD feels. He obsesses/stalks because he desperately wants me but despises the fact of how the triggers i evoke make him feel so effectively he hates me.

So to answer your question... what's he getting from the relationship? the memory of how that cigarette makes him feel. Why? Because the memory of smoking is to overwhelming to forget.

Does this make sense? X

[Lou12]

Yes I believe I have got to hold out. My BPD is still stalking and playing covert mind games with me. Would you believe I caved a few days ago and sent him a message, the message failed to send and in them few moments I pulled myself together! Close call! X

[GreenEyedMonster]

Keep in mind also, that your ex probably has 2 assumptions

-He can have you back whenever he wants.

This is because of your track record of recycling.  He has no reason to believe that you aren't ready and waiting there for him.  For him, this removes any motivation to contact you, because he already has the peace of mind of your presence.  My ex (erroneously) believes this same thing.  Like I said, these thoughts are stubborn and take a lot of time/effort for the person to feel like reality has contradicted them.  He won't feel abandoned, probably, until the evidence that you're gone is alarmingly real.

-He will be right back in an engulfment relationship the moment he contacts you.

He may feel that the relationship will click right back to where it was the moment he gets in touch, and all of his engulfment fears will flood back immediately.  This is probably why you aren't painted white for long.  If you acted uncertain about having him back and said things like, "I'm not sure if I can trust you this time, but I'll think about it," or, "Let's take things slow and date a little bit again," you might find that you stayed painted white longer.

Just some thoughts.

[Lou12]

Yes GEM I agree with you.

He has made certain comments in the past implying that he could have me at any point, quite arrogantly really.

And yes every time we communicated I stupidly believed that he needed full on reassurances that I loved him.

It will be quite interesting to see how he behaves once I do move on... !

Have you thought about a comorbid diagnosis with your BPD GEM? Sometimes I think it's fully fledged BPD but then I start questioning ASPD and NPD. I can't fully work out if his sadism is due to desperate emotions and impulse control.

[Take2]

Yes GEM I agree with you.

He has made certain comments in the past implying that he could have me at any point, quite arrogantly really.

And yes every time we communicated I stupidly believed that he needed full on reassurances that I loved him.

It will be quite interesting to see how he behaves once I do move on... !

Have you thought about a comorbid diagnosis with your BPD GEM? Sometimes I think it's fully fledged BPD but then I start questioning ASPD and NPD. I can't fully work out if his sadism is due to desperate emotions and impulse control.

Lou12, much of what you describe sounds exactly like the feelings I went thru.  Yes, my ex behaved in all those ways.  And yes, I too was addicted to that cigarette.  I knew how bad the cigarette was.  I knew it would wind up making me feel absolutely sick and awful.  And yet I kept smoking.  And yep, I did and still do believe my ex to be comorpid with ASPD and NPD.  He is absolutely a scary individual.  More than just BPD without a doubt.  And yet MY addiction to the cycle was so strong that it took him shutting me out (for the 12 billionth time) AND me finally finding a good therapist (one who specializes in behavioral addiction) for me to finally STOP the cycle for myself. 

I will give you my opinion based only on my own r/s and what I went thru.  But it doesn't matter what you do.  Or don't do.

You WILL trigger him no matter what.  Just my presence became a trigger to my ex.  He didn't require ME to do anything or say anything by the end.  He conjured up complete delusions to fit his need to get triggered. 

Don't contact your ex.  Give YOURSELF the space YOU need.  And you do need it.  I know how badly you want him back.

But YOU matter.  It takes a long time to get back to oneself.  And for some (like me) complete NC.  THEN your mind starts to see things clearly... .   and you begin to remember that you too deserve happiness... .

[GreenEyedMonster]

I think that my ex has crossed a line from fearing me to enjoying the "attention" of me "stalking" him.  (Since I haven't seen him since July and have contacted him once in the last 56 days, I'm clearly not.  All of my contact with him since the breakup has been kind and friendly.)

My ex has a long history of portraying himself as a victim of females, sometimes females he portrayed as being truly evil.  But there was not one he would not occasionally defend given the chance.   They went from being a real threat to being characters in the drama of his life.  I think when he initially broke up with me, I was a trigger, and I probably still am to some degree.  But since he has started posting information about my "stalking" on Facebook, I think that he is now using my behavior to garner attention and give himself the identity he's missing.  So in my opinion, he's back to "needing" me, just in a really twisted way.  I am the "fun thing" that is happening to him now, and the scarier I get, the more "fun" he has.  I think that this is why, unlike my previous attempts to contact him, he is making no attempt to stop me now. 

This is very consistent with his behavior when we were in the relationship.  He would bring up supposedly terrifying things he exes did to him, and practically invite me to act out the scenario again, because he clearly found it gratifying in the first place and it no longer triggered fear.

This is also why I've gone completely silent -- so that I don't gratify him.  In an odd way, he'll begin to miss me.

He's still stalking me every couple days.  How long until he gets bored and frustrated?

He no longer knows where I am with friends, where I live, or any real pertinent information about me.  There will be no updates or action to watch.  Now we wait for the extinction burst.

[Lou12]

You probably think I'm nuts with this cigarette theory but when I relay it this way I can relate to the behaviours better...

So basically... .whilst the cigarette is being exposed to me, I'm not only feeling a desire not to have it because I know it's their for the taking but I also will not let this cigarette know I want it because the cigarette means I've caved and I need to smoke it. At this point I would be more determined and stronger than ever not to smoke that cigarette. I would at this point see the cigarette as the enemy as it was out to break me. I see the cigarette as mocking me by being there, so in turn I mock back.

Now when the cigarettes are removed from my clutches and I no longer have them accessible, I begin to feel like the cigarettes are not mocking me and wanting me to fail hence wanting me to have a panic attack. They can't be the enemy any longer because they are not there, there's no willpower game to prove to my cigarette I will not smoke it as it gone. So I start to think about the nice effects that cigarette had when I smoked it as I feel safe to do so as it's not there to threaten me. I now begin to miss the cigarette more and more until the time comes when I have to light up again! I hate that cigarette!

Haha there could be something in this cigarette theory regarding the push/pull love/hate, split black/white.

So maybe that's why it's always best to leave a BPD alone after discard! Mmm I'm liking my theory, I knew there had to be some logic to BPD  x

[GreenEyedMonster]

Now with a little hindsight, it seems that the reason my ex posted all that on Facebook is fairly obvious.

He is having a hard time keeping me black.

He did this with me during the relationship.  If he was insecure about something be did. He would look for people to agree with him to reassure him.  Posting on Facebook about my crimed is a great way to do just that.

[Lou12]

U see I believe that when they paint you black they absolutely don't want anything to do with you. Your a nothing to them.

Do you not believe it was possible that the content of your text may have triggered him and sent his BPD symptoms off the charts?

To a BPD your words could have possibly meant... .your abandoning him, acted as though you were fine about it, and took away his control of the fantasy he had that he was in charge! X

[Lou12]

To add...

The smear campaign they leave in your wake I don't think has much to do with the non BPD and more to do with the BPD claiming allies and basically getting in there with a story before you do? X