Explorations of co-dependency

[Depression = 72% of members]

How many of these pertain to you?

Focused on others  Codependents tend to deny their own feelings and needs. Often, they don’t know what they’re feeling because they are so focused on what someone else is feeling. The same thing goes for their needs. They pay attention to other people’s needs and not their own. Some enablers will seem needy. Other enablers will act very self-sufficient when it comes to needing help and won’t reach out. Enablers are generally in denial of their own vulnerability and need for love and intimacy.

Excessively compliant  A codependent can become excessively compliant and yielding to their partner all the way to the point of losing touch with what they need, want, like, and prefer.  This often results in frustration, denial of negative feelings, stress and even depression.

Self-sacrificing  A codependent enabler focuses on the needs of their partner to the point that they can neglect their own needs. While it’s natural to feel empathy and sympathy for someone, enablers take it too far. They need to help their partner. They might feel rejected if the other person doesn’t want their help. They may even keep trying to help and fix the person when that person isn’t wanting or taking their advice.

Reactive  A consequence of having a poorly differentiated "self", is that the enablers react to everyone’s thoughts and feelings. If someone says something they disagree with, they either embrace it and replace their own belief or they become defensive. They absorb the words of others with no filter. With a better differentiated "self", they’d accept that others have opinions and not feel threatened by them or by disagreements.

Problems with openness and intimacy  Problems with openness and intimacy  Enablers often have trouble when it comes to communicating their thoughts, feelings and needs in an intimate relationship. An enabler may feel shame or fear that if they are "exposed" they will be judged, rejected, or left behind.  Enablers may be afraid to be truthful, because they don’t want to upset someone else. Instead of saying, "I don’t like that," they might pretend that it’s okay. Communication becomes dishonest and confusing when inhibited by fear.

Controlling  Control helps enablers feel safe and secure - both self-control and the controlling of others. Everyone needs some control over events in their life as no one wants to live in constant uncertainty and chaos, but for enablers, control is a emotional shield.  Sometimes they have an addiction that either helps them loosen up, like alcoholism, or helps them hold their feelings down, like workaholism, so that they don’t feel out of control. Codependents also need to control those close to them, because they need other people to behave in a certain way to feel okay about themselves.

Manipulative enablers often feel over-giving and under-appreciated.  In time, when their needs are not being met by their partners, resentments build and enablers can become manipulative. In fact, people-pleasing and care-taking can become tools to manipulate the partner.  Enablers can become bossy and tell others what they should or shouldn’t do.   There can also be a lot of "self-pity" and a lot of "guilting". Enablers may start distancing themselves and emotionally withdrawing from those around them, by being wrapped up their own feelings of injustice. Enablers become, in many ways, very poor givers.

[Skip]

How many of these pertain to you?

Focused on others  Codependents tend to deny their own feelings and needs. Often, they don’t know what they’re feeling because they are so focused on what someone else is feeling. The same thing goes for their needs. They pay attention to other people’s needs and not their own. Some enablers will seem needy. Other enablers will act very self-sufficient when it comes to needing help and won’t reach out. Enablers are generally in denial of their own vulnerability and need for love and intimacy.

Excessively compliant  A codependent can become excessively compliant and yielding to their partner all the way to the point of losing touch with what they need, want, like, and prefer.  This often results in frustration, denial of negative feelings, stress and even depression.

Self-sacrificing  A codependent enabler focuses on the needs of their partner to the point that they can neglect their own needs. While it’s natural to feel empathy and sympathy for someone, enablers take it too far. They need to help their partner. They might feel rejected if the other person doesn’t want their help. They may even keep trying to help and fix the person when that person isn’t wanting or taking their advice.

Reactive  A consequence of having a poorly differentiated "self", is that the enablers react to everyone’s thoughts and feelings. If someone says something they disagree with, they either embrace it and replace their own belief or they become defensive. They absorb the words of others with no filter. With a better differentiated "self", they’d accept that others have opinions and not feel threatened by them or by disagreements.

Problems with openness and intimacy  Problems with openness and intimacy  Enablers often have trouble when it comes to communicating their thoughts, feelings and needs in an intimate relationship. An enabler may feel shame or fear that if they are "exposed" they will be judged, rejected, or left behind.  Enablers may be afraid to be truthful, because they don’t want to upset someone else. Instead of saying, "I don’t like that," they might pretend that it’s okay. Communication becomes dishonest and confusing when inhibited by fear.

Controlling  Control helps enablers feel safe and secure - both self-control and the controlling of others. Everyone needs some control over events in their life as no one wants to live in constant uncertainty and chaos, but for enablers, control is a emotional shield.  Sometimes they have an addiction that either helps them loosen up, like alcoholism, or helps them hold their feelings down, like workaholism, so that they don’t feel out of control. Codependents also need to control those close to them, because they need other people to behave in a certain way to feel okay about themselves.

Manipulative enablers often feel over-giving and under-appreciated.  In time, when their needs are not being met by their partners, resentments build and enablers can become manipulative. In fact, people-pleasing and care-taking can become tools to manipulate the partner.  Enablers can become bossy and tell others what they should or shouldn’t do.   There can also be a lot of "self-pity" and a lot of "guilting". Enablers may start distancing themselves and emotionally withdrawing from those around them, by being wrapped up their own feelings of injustice. Enablers become, in many ways, very poor givers.

[Lifewriter16]

Focused on others - I can be like this, usually when I feel uncomfortable in a situation and don't know how to react. I think it's a strategy that developed as a result of having AS just as much as having been brought up in an invalidating FOO.

Excessively compliant - Yes, I can do this too and I have to be especially vigilant to ensure that I listen to my inner voice that says "Beware, don't go that way!"

Self-sacrificing - I do this too, often putting my needs last. But, I can also be oblivious to other people's actual needs.

Reactive - I think much of my co-dependent behaviour originates in this. I always feel that I am wrong and feel decidedly uncomfortable in any situation where there is a difference of opinion. I don't think it's because I lack a self, it's because I think that the self I do have is wrong and doesn't fit in.

Problems with openness and intimacy - Definitely. I have to try really hard to express my needs and feelings because I think they are wrong. 

Controlling  - My controlling manifests as trying to keep other people happy and avoid conflict or disagreement occurring around me. It's a way of limiting my own anxiety.

Over-giving and feeling under-appreciated - Unfortunately, I can do this too when I become stuck in co-dependent dynamics with someone. It's a vicious circle that arises from me being dishonest with a person about who I am right at the beginning of a relationship. Once the dynamics are established, I find them difficult to break.


Lifewriter x

[bravhart1]

I've been doing much studying on co dependent behavior, especially in regards to myself and my current husband. He and I both were previously in relationships with BPD or NPD people and I believe we are both codependent.

What happens when two codependents get together?

[Skip]

By definition, the parties are dependent and co-dependent… Are one of you dependent or becoming dependent on the other?

[eeks]

By definition, the parties are dependent and co-dependent… Are one of you dependent or becoming dependent on the other?

Skip, this is an interesting question.  If I understand right, you're saying that in a co-dependency dynamic, one can either play the "role" of the dependent or the co-dependent, these are complementary roles, that fit like a lock and key, and as such you would not tend to see two co-dependents in a relationship with one another.

In retrospect, I thought both the uBPDs who were in my life described co-dependent behaviour with others.  uBPDex had an ex-gf who he seemed to be taking care of in hopes that she would one day return the favour and take care of him.  Of course, I also eventually observed with both of them that they had long lists of people who had disappointed them/not cared for them properly, and I eventually joined that list, as did some of the others who cared for them. 

Do you think they were co-dependent, or that they "switched roles" in their various relationships (perhaps resulting from mirroring, and unstable sense of self, being whatever the other person seems to need/will respond to) i.e. hoping I'd say "oh that sounds awful, having to deal with that person, you are wonderful but it seems you just never get a break"? 

[bravhart1]

It is my belief that as two codependents, we have been having a hard time establishing what are roles are. If one of us tries to caretaker the other then the other becomes defensive. The roles aren't defined, we are so busy trying to be the "good" one with each other, it's hard to figure out who the victim is and who is the perpetrator if that makes sense.

It's as though we were so much in sync before but now that we have been in this relationship for a while now our old patterns and expectations are rearing their heads. It's all so confusing.

Skip, I'm not sure I really understand your question. I get the definition, but it is possible for two people who operated in their previous relationship as the "co" are in a relationship now and struggling with getting the roles straight?

[Lifewriter16]

I too noted that my BPDxbf seemed to have co-dependent traits and there appeared to have been a tousle over who was going to be the carer and thus the one in power. He complained about having to look after me, said our relationship was like an extended therapy group and he wanted a partner not a therapist, yet there were times when I had to fight him off from trying to caretake me. He would try to wrap me in a blanket like a little child even when I objected (it soothed him to be wrapped in a blanket) and two of our breakups occurred because I refused to allow him to come over and look after me, once when I was physically ill, the second when I was depressed (over him).

Love Lifewriter

[enlighten me]

This behaviour is taught to us from a very early age.

It is reward based. I see my eldest son doing this all the time trying to please me. I tell him that he doesn't need to but realise that I put this type of pressure on him all the time. I encourage him to do well at school and he enjoys my praise when he does. I encourage him to do exercise and he enjoys my praise from this aswell.

Its hard to see where to draw the line.

We are bombarded with people telling us that we should be doing this. The good Samaritan, religion, Charity drives, movies, Tv shows, music, its everywhere.

[Lifewriter16]

Yes, enlighten me. And this is coupled with all the pressure that comes from being told we are selfish, selfish, SELFISH for putting ourselves first.

Lifewriter

x

[Skip]

We are bombarded with people telling us that we should be doing this. The good Samaritan, religion, Charity drives, movies, Tv shows, music, its everywhere.

Who is telling us to build our self esteem on the backs of others or to have a codependent mindset?  

Co-dependency is not about validating our children.  It's not about doing good deeds.

Among the core characteristics of codependency, the most common theme is an excessive reliance on other people for approval and identity.

For the enabler a codependent relationship fulfills a strong drive to feel needed.

Some enablers always need to be in a relationship because they feel lost or lonely when they’re by themselves.  Codependents are often inherently afraid of being rejected or abandoned, even if they can function on their own, and in these cases the enabling behavior is a way to mitigate fears of abandonment.  

Codependent enablers often lack in self-worth and define their worth through another's eyes, thoughts, or views of them. They need other people to validate them to feel okay about themselves and without this, they are unable to find their own worth or identity.  

For some, the codependent relationship will satisfy the need to feel competent / superior and low self-esteem is boosted by comparing oneself to the dysfunctional partner.

https://bpdfamily.com/content/codependency-codependent-relationships

If we are co-dependent, the first step is to own it.  The second is to realize we change change it.

[enlighten me]

Hi Skip

What I am meaning is the image of a selfless person who gives the shirt off of their back and their life for the person or thing they love is in every aspect of entertainment. From books, movies, songs, tv shows. All religion to my knowledge has this image that we should aspire to be. It is also used by charities to guilt us and portray an image of what we should be.

From childhood we aspire to be that hero. No one goes through childhood thinking the Joker is who I want to grow up to be. Ask any child what they want to be when they grow up and you will get soldier, nurse, doctor, astronaut, fireman and even Batman.

As we grow we learn boundaries and gain a more realistic appreciation of the world but in the back of my mind is still a child that wanted to be Batman.

[eeks]

Hi Skip

What I am meaning is the image of a selfless person who gives the shirt off of their back and their life for the person or thing they love is in every aspect of entertainment. From books, movies, songs, tv shows. All religion to my knowledge has this image that we should aspire to be. It is also used by charities to guilt us and portray an image of what we should be.

Hi enlighten me, I think I get what you're saying, there is that cultural/religious image of the mighty hero who saves the day, the religious saints and avatars whose compassion and generosity know no bounds.

I could also point at "shoulds" in the opposite direction, this may be changing now, but there is a competitive individualism in the corporate world.  It's dog eat dog, you scratch my back I'll scratch yours, you gotta be tough if you want to survive.

I want to be careful not to oversimplify this, to capture the nuance here.  You are right.  There are cultural, social and religious pressures to help and rescue.  I also think that depending on your family upbringing, the spoken and unspoken rules and "shoulds" you were raised by, people can find evidence in their adult worlds that seems to prove/justify just about any rule or limitation they were raised according to.

I'm guessing "selfish" was not an approved quality in your family growing up?  That those who were spoken about in an admiring fashion were generous and helping, selfless, and/or strong heroes who rescued those in trouble?

[Skip]

Hi Skip

What I am meaning is the image of a selfless person who gives the shirt off of their back and their life for the person or thing they love is in every aspect of entertainment. From books, movies, songs, tv shows. All religion to my knowledge has this image that we should aspire to be. It is also used by charities to guilt us and portray an image of what we should be.

From childhood we aspire to be that hero. No one goes through childhood thinking the Joker is who I want to grow up to be. Ask any child what they want to be when they grow up and you will get soldier, nurse, doctor, astronaut, fireman and even Batman.

As we grow we learn boundaries and gain a more realistic appreciation of the world but in the back of my mind is still a child that wanted to be Batman.

Its a common misunderstanding that codependency is about being "too giving".  Codependency is no more about being "too giving"anymore than alcoholism is about be "well hydrated".  Sure, to someone looking in from the outside, giving and hydration are apparent…

Codependency is about why we do it. Just like alcoholism is about why we do it.

For example, Bill Gates is not codependent because he gives a lot of money away.

At the same time, some of our members who donate nothing are codependent - they like being the superior person in the relationship. The other persons weakness and their "on top" position in the relationship satisfies a need to feel competent / superior - a low self-esteem person can be boosted by comparing themself to the dysfunctional partner.  In some harsher editorial on codependency, the dependent person is referred to as the codependents "supply" (this is just one model).

[Lifewriter16]

Hi Everyone.

My question is this: "What do we actually DO about it once we have realised that we can behave co-dependently at times or in certain relationships?"

Lifewriter x

[Skip]

As best I understand it, it has to do with what Bowen calls "differentiation of self".

When you read this, how does it apply to you?

And as a side note - we can recover from this - we can alter our perceptions - its doesn't need to be a way of life.

According to Bowen's Family Theory, families and other social groups tremendously affect how people think, feel, and act, and individuals vary in their susceptibility to, and dependence on how others think. These differences are based on the differences in people's levels of "differentiation of self". The less developed a person's "self," the more impact others have on his functioning and the more he tries to control, actively or passively, the functioning of others. Every human society has its well-differentiated people, poorly-differentiated people, and people at many gradations between these extremes.

The basic building blocks of a "self" are inborn, but an individual's family relationships during childhood and adolescence primarily determine how much "self" he develops. Once established, the level of "self" rarely changes unless a person makes a structured and long-term effort to change it.

A person with a well-differentiated "self" recognizes his realistic dependence on others, but he can stay calm and clear-headed enough in the face of conflict, criticism, and rejection to distinguish thinking rooted in a careful assessment of the facts from thinking clouded by emotionality. Thoughtfully acquired principles help guide decision-making about important family and social issues, making him less at the mercy of the feelings of the moment. What he decides and what he says matches what he does. He can act selflessly, but his acting in the best interests of the group is a thoughtful choice, not a response to relationship pressures. Confident in his thinking, he can either support another's view without being a disciple or reject another view without polarizing the differences. He defines himself without being pushy and deals with pressure to yield without being wishy-washy.

People with a poorly-differentiated "self" depend so heavily on the acceptance and approval of others that they quickly adjust what they think, say, and do to please others.  It’s normal to want to please someone you care about, but when someone has a poorly-differentiated "self", they usually don’t think they have a choice. Saying “No” causes anxiety and they sacrifice their own needs to accommodate other people.  This is generally where codependents get into trouble.  They have blurry boundaries. They feel responsible for other people’s feelings and problems or blame their own problems on others.

[enlighten me]

Hi Skip

What I am meaning is the image of a selfless person who gives the shirt off of their back and their life for the person or thing they love is in every aspect of entertainment. From books, movies, songs, tv shows. All religion to my knowledge has this image that we should aspire to be. It is also used by charities to guilt us and portray an image of what we should be.

From childhood we aspire to be that hero. No one goes through childhood thinking the Joker is who I want to grow up to be. Ask any child what they want to be when they grow up and you will get soldier, nurse, doctor, astronaut, fireman and even Batman.

As we grow we learn boundaries and gain a more realistic appreciation of the world but in the back of my mind is still a child that wanted to be Batman.

Its a common misunderstanding that codependency is about being "too giving".  Codependency is no more about being "too giving"anymore than alcoholism is about be "well hydrated".  Sure, to someone looking in from the outside, giving and hydration are apparent…

Codependency is about why we do it. Just like alcoholism is about why we do it.

For example, Bill Gates is not codependent because he gives a lot of money away.

At the same time, some of our members who donate nothing are codependent - they like being the superior person in the relationship. The other persons weakness and their "on top" position in the relationship satisfies a need to feel competent / superior - a low self-esteem person can be boosted by comparing themself to the dysfunctional partner.  In some harsher editorial on codependency, the dependent person is referred to as the codependents "supply" (this is just one model).

I agree that generosity is not a basis for co dependency. Its the compulsion that drives the behaviour that is the key.

What I am trying to say is that socially this behaviour is seen as acceptable. For some one that is co dependant its easy to believe you are doing the right thing as from childhood you have been told that is how you should behave.

As for Bill Gates I'd say NPD way before co-dependant.

[eeks]

I agree that generosity is not a basis for co dependency. Its the compulsion that drives the behaviour that is the key.

The way I would phrase this distinction is, are you giving because you feel authentically moved to give?  Or is it based on someone else's "should" (this is how I was trained, this is what others expect of me, I am doing it to avoid criticism/conflict, etc.)

What I am trying to say is that socially this behaviour is seen as acceptable. For some one that is co dependant its easy to believe you are doing the right thing as from childhood you have been told that is how you should behave.

That's right, some people get taught that sacrificing their needs for others is "the right thing to do".  Because these traits are so ingrained, from early childhood when our survival depended on our bond with our parents, it can feel very frightening to question them.

The important thing for those of us doing our personal growth work is to find the parts that got stifled, censored, disapproved of growing up, and acknowledge that they are there.  Again, really scary, but I think what we will find is that these parts of us are not truly as "selfish" or "spoiled" (or whatever critical terms your parents used) as we are afraid they will be.

My mother is co-dependent.  Although she is starting (thanks at least in part to persistent explanations by me) to see how much of her behaviour is reflexive based on how she was trained when she was young, she has rationalized these things as "just the way the world works" for a long time. 

She believes it is virtuous to curb one's desires.  She complains about "greed" and "greedy" people.  Growing up, she surely would have been punished for being "greedy" (or for having her own separate self at all, her father basically thought women existed to serve men).  So she has not integrated her own "greed", which I suspect will turn out to be just the healthy state of having her own interests and needs and asserting them.

So, I want to know how you really feel about these social norms.  Do you resent the burden?  Are you afraid of the reactions of others if you were to stop doing what you were taught is "the right thing"? 

[enlighten me]

Im happy to do the right thing and offer a hand if needed. I am no longer happy to problem solve for people when they don't need my help or are capable of doing it themselves.

[Lifewriter16]

As an aspie, I think I've always lived life on the outside of society looking in, both feeling rejected and shunned because I was just a bit different to everyone else. I have spent my life trying to learn how to behave in a world that understands intuitively what is necessary to prevent social gaffs and social isolation. Whilst I detest all social norms and would reject them out of hand if there were no repercussions for me, I do find that if an individual is actually relating to me, I want that to continue and I adjust my behaviour accordingly to some extent. It's all part of trying to fit into a world that seems to have no place for me. It's a way of protecting against total social isolation. Does that count as co-dependency? I think it does. But, if I was truly my aspie self, would I have any friends at all?

Lifewriter x

[Lucky Jim]

And as a side note - we can recover from this - we can alter our perceptions - its doesn't need to be a way of life.

Agree w/that, Skip.  One small step, in my view, is learning to say No.  As codependents, we tend to be at the beck and call of others.  Now I don't feel the need, or at least feel it less so.  I get my self-esteem from within.  I let others carry their own baggage.  It's healthier for me and healthier for them.  Once you get the hang of it, it's a liberated way to live.  I used to enjoy playing the role of Knight in Shining Armor, yet now it seems unnecessary.

LuckyJim

[Skip]

So, I want to know how you really feel about these social norms.  :)o you resent the burden?  Are you afraid of the reactions of others if you were to stop doing what you were taught is "the right thing"?  

Staying on the topic of "explorations of co-dependency", a lot of this is about self esteem and I don't think it is helpful to attribute our self-esteem issues to society. That seems like drifting away from owning it, and it seems like making the solution astronomically complex.  

I do think, in the case of having a mentally ill parent, we can trace and understand the origin our self esteem struggles, but even at that, at this stage in our life, its our compulsion now and we have the power to change.

I used to enjoy playing the role of Knight in Shining Armor, yet now it seems unnecessary.

This is really at the heart of it.  We have to not pin our self-worth on how others see us or on being better than they are.

[HappyNihilist]

Anyone who knows my story can attest to my own unholy levels of co-dependency. 

It took a lot of work to get where I am today, and it's something I will always have to be aware of. But working on my co-dependency and self-esteem issues has been, without a doubt, the most life-changing thing I have ever done. It feels so good to not rely on anyone or anything else for my sense of self-worth and self-esteem. It's so freeing to just let myself be - and let others be.

Focused on others. Very much so. I was a 'self-sufficient enabler' - I wouldn't reach out for help because I felt like I was being a burden. (Even with doctors.) I grew up feeling responsible for the emotional balance of others (part explicitly told, part taken on myself). Paradoxically, this 'other-focused' aspect brought out a narcissistic way of thinking - that I had some sort of responsibility for or control over other human beings. Letting go of this makes it easier to be generous and supportive in an authentic way.

Excessively compliant. An enterprising psychologist could have a field day with my excessive compliance. 

Self-sacrificing.  ^ Same as above.

Reactive. Yes - especially when I was in either a manic or depressive state. I went more towards being defensive because I thought my opinions and beliefs were being threatened.

Problems with openness and intimacy. In an intimate relationship, it was very hard for me to communicate my needs and feelings, because I was certain that it would result in me being left, or in someone else getting their feelings hurt. I felt like if anyone knew the 'real me,' they would leave, because there was something inherently not-good-enough about me. In my relationship with my exBPDbf, I was much more comfortable being open and showing my 'true' self - although I was still not comfortable with upsetting my ex's apple cart. That's part of why him leaving me was so devastating for me... .it felt like I had shown him all of me (more than I realized!), and he had rejected it.

Controlling. I actually wanted to be completely out of control and powerless in my relationship with my exBPDbf. I suppose that in itself is a form of control? I've never been told I was controlling, and part of that is because I not-so-secretly adore chaos. I'm sure this manifests in some other way with me - maybe my tendency to hermit? That's an attempt to tightly control my environment.