What should I do with surveillance info?

[Learning Fast]

As my BPD relationship almost certainly comes to an end (almost 2 yrs, all of the behavior patterns that have been described in these posts, most recently an on again/off again summer with alot of holes in stories, etc.), I was talking to a friend of mine in the private investigation business and he offered to arrange surveillance of my uBPDgf later this week.  Due to the dynamics of our relationship it is very difficult for either of us to find out about what the other is doing.  It so happens that she will be out of town this weekend at a very specific location which lends itself to a surveillance opportunity.  She claims that it will be nothing more than dinner with a few friends (but we all know how that works).

My question:  what do I do with the resulting info (it will be video and non-video)?  My thoughts are:

---Keep it confidential and use it for my own purposes (avoid recycle attempts, weak moments, etc).

---Inform her that I know what happened over the weekend with the objective that the materail will cause her to not even consider a recycle.

This is not something that I want to use vindictively.  It is more for me to find out definitively and unequivocally (no third party noise about where she was seen with who, etc.) whether she can be trusted on any level.  The reason this matters is because our daughters are very good friends and I will run into her occasionally so my ability to go NC is limited.

Any thoughts or input would be appreciated.

[Fr4nz]

As my BPD relationship almost certainly comes to an end (almost 2 yrs, all of the behavior patterns that have been described in these posts, most recently an on again/off again summer with alot of holes in stories, etc.), I was talking to a friend of mine in the private investigation business and he offered to arrange surveillance of my uBPDgf later this week.  :)ue to the dynamics of our relationship it is very difficult for either of us to find out about what the other is doing.  It so happens that she will be out of town this weekend at a very specific location which lends itself to a surveillance opportunity.  She claims that it will be nothing more than dinner with a few friends (but we all know how that works).

My question:  what do I do with the resulting info (it will be video and non-video)?  My thoughts are:

---Keep it confidential and use it for my own purposes (avoid recycle attempts, weak moments, etc).

---Inform her that I know what happened over the weekend with the objective that the materail will cause her to not even consider a recycle.

This is not something that I want to use vindictively.  It is more for me to find out definitively and unequivocally (no third party noise about where she was seen with who, etc.) whether she can be trusted on any level.  The reason this matters is because our daughters are very good friends and I will run into her occasionally so my ability to go NC is limited.

Any thoughts or input would be appreciated.

You already know and experienced the dynamics of a relationship with a BPD... .and it's quite clear you don't trust her anymore. I think these are sufficient reasons to end the relationship, isn't it? Why you keep staying in it?

And: why you want to use this surveillance info to leave her? Can't you leave her regardless of the fact that she cheats or not? Do you want to prove something to her? Aren't already sufficient the behaviours she exibiths because of the disorder?

[Mutt]

Hi Learning Fast,

---Keep it confidential and use it for my own purposes (avoid recycle attempts, weak moments, etc).

---Inform her that I know what happened over the weekend with the objective that the materail will cause her to not even consider a recycle.

It sounds to me like you want her to stay away from you? Does that sound right?

[Learning Fast]

Thanks for the commentary.  Indeed---it would be used for her to stay away from me.  Additionally, the cost is minimal (due to the PI being a good friend of mine) while offering something very definitive that would be impossible to compromise with typical BPD tactics.

[Mutt]

Thanks for the commentary.  Indeed---it would be used for her to stay away from me.  Additionally, the cost is minimal (due to the PI being a good friend of mine) while offering something very definitive that would be impossible to compromise with typical BPD tactics.

Hi Learning Fast,

I understand your logic. A sufferer of BPD have a distorted belief system, she's mentally ill. I can relate, there was a period where I was scared that if I was split white and how my ex may try to recycle that I may be tempted. I think that what keeps her at bay is not by trying to convince her that I'm not interested but by defending my boundaries. If she does X, I respond with Y.

Setting Boundaries and Setting Limits

[myself]

What if she's not caught doing anything this weekend? Does that prove she's not doing anything at all, or just wasn't this weekend? If she's not found out this time, will you have your friend keep tabs on her other times too, until somehow you know for sure? And how would you feel if you found out she was having someone do surveillance on you? If the negative patterns are already there, the r/s is on the rocks, and your instincts are saying she's not very trustworthy, how much more do you need to make a decision?

[Learning Fast]

Mutt---agreed---I want to prevent the temptation of a recycle because I suspect at some point that she'll make an attempt

myself---good questions that I've asked myself and thanks for pushing me on them.  This weekend is very opportunistic as I know her exact whereabouts and the likelihood of her doing something is very high.  If she's not caught?  Well, I guess it's kind of like going in for an annual physical and emerging with a clean bill of health---there is value in that result.  Whether I would continue the relationship with stronger boundaries has yet to be decided.  I don't plan to have her under surveillance after this as all the planets happened to align for this weekend.  As is the case with most nons, I have very little if anything to hide.  Finally it would give me one more irrefutable negative data point to revisit if I were to weaken down the road by falling victim to reminiscing about the "good times".

[Learning_curve74]

It sounds like the relationship is terminal already. If you need some kind of proof to convince yourself beyond the simple fact that you're tempted to spy on her, maybe any evidence your PI friend turns up will be the turning point for you? Are you breaking up for sure regardless of what your friend might find out?

Having boundaries is for your own health, not necessarily trying to make other people do as you wish, such as leaving you alone because you can't control what they do. Even if your daughters are friends, you can still limit your interactions with her, similar to how you would limit interactions between a coworker you don't like, by keeping the contact minimal, bland, and business only.

[Mutt]

Having boundaries is for your own health, not necessarily trying to make other people do as you wish, such as leaving you alone because you can't control what they do.

Absolutely it's to protect your morals and values. It keeps the good stuff in and bad stuff out.

If somebody is trying to continuously elicit an emotional response from you and wants to be a friend, romantic interest, partner and you defend your boundaries. What message does that send them? Does the behavior eventually decrease, stay the same or get worse?

Sure a sufferer of BPD have little boundaries and the understanding of boundaries of others and you'll most likely have to keep defending the same boundaries, it doesn't reinforce negative and unwanted behaviors. It can take time, a sufferer of BPD may act out against your boundaries at the onset, but eventually the behaviors decrease over a period of time with periods where your boundaries are tested.

If you don't want her to come back Learning Fast, I don't think that you have to pay a fee. I understand the intent and how it would make sense to play a video playback of her actions, but she has defense mechanisms, she alters reality often and is mentally ill. If you don't want to recycle, you have that choice to not recycle.

[Learning Fast]

LC---perhaps I got a bit "out over my skiis" with my initial description of my situation by already errroneously incorporating what I suspect will come of this weekend into my comments.  Although it is questionable as to whether the relationship continues evidence of extracurriculars would be a deal breaker.

LC and Mutt---admittedly I have established poor boundaries in the past that have not been well defended.  Using the the tale of the Three Little Pigs as a basis my house was definitely made of straw.  I have to learn that most of my choices are within my control---I simply need to execute appropriately.  Perhaps it is my weakness in this area that is causing me to go to extremes.

Many thanks for the commentary---the experience of the this group is invaluable.

[Fr4nz]

LC---perhaps I got a bit "out over my skiis" with my initial description of my situation by already errroneously incorporating what I suspect will come of this weekend into my comments.  Although it is questionable as to whether the relationship continues evidence of extracurriculars would be a deal breaker.

LC and Mutt---admittedly I have established poor boundaries in the past that have not been well defended.  Using the the tale of the Three Little Pigs as a basis my house was definitely made of straw.  I have to learn that most of my choices are within my control---I simply need to execute appropriately.  Perhaps it is my weakness in this area that is causing me to go to extremes.

Indeed, what you should start asking yourself (but first you'd need to go to NC for your healing) is why you stayed in this unsasiftying relationship, where now you cannot trust your partner and your boundaries were repeatedly broken (abuse, continuous drama, etc.).

At the end of this process experiences with BPDs can be lifechanging experiences, if you are able to understand what happened during the r/s, understand which role you played with respect to the disorder and introspect in order to change what is not correct in you.

[enlighten me]

By the sounds of it the relationship is already at breaking point. The fact whether or not you get anything I don't think should be the determining factor. If you caught her in the act it would I guess have been a deal breaker. As it stands though you have no evidence of wrong doing just suspicions. A gut feeling is a strong thing and I realised that when I had them I should have listened to it.

If you are wanting this evidence to stop you going back and end any confusion I can understand it. If you are going to use it to shove in her face then I wouldn't recommend it. The consequences could be bad. You may be portrayed as a deranged stalker that drove her to cheat and was having her followed.

[Fr4nz]

By the sounds of it the relationship is already at breaking point. The fact whether or not you get anything I don't think should be the determining factor. If you caught her in the act it would I guess have been a deal breaker. As it stands though you have no evidence of wrong doing just suspicions. A gut feeling is a strong thing and I realised that when I had them I should have listened to it.

If you are wanting this evidence to stop you going back and end any confusion I can understand it. If you are going to use it to shove in her face then I wouldn't recommend it. The consequences could be bad. You may be portrayed as a deranged stalker that drove her to cheat and was having her followed.

I fully agree... .be careful learning fast. Listen to enlighten's suggestions.

[Learning Fast]

EM and F---sound advice indeed.  After some more thought I've determined that this info would be for my use only.  Revealing any of it to her could lead to harassment, stalker or smear campaign possibilities.  I can't afford for this to happen as our daughters are good friends and we live in the same area.  Thanks again.

[Skip]

"I'm not obtuse. I suspect that your are going with her, not for her.  And, I'm perfectly good for now.  As I mentioned before, I met someone over the summer of whom I'm very fond."

It is more for me to find out definitively and unequivocally (no third party noise about where she was seen with who, etc.) whether she can be trusted on any level.  The reason this matters is because our daughters are very good friends and I will run into her occasionally so my ability to go NC is limited.

If I understand the situation, she has relegated the relationship to "friend zone". She is being upfront about it.

This has to be heartbreaking for you. I'm sorry you are facing this.

My question is twofold. Is surveillance ethical? Will it make you smarter or will it hurt you more?

The heart of the matter is that she has either lost a romantic connection to you, found it with someone else, or is looking. This has to hurt. The relationship, at least for now is over.

Maybe the best thing you can do for yourself (for your eyes, your daughters eyes, her eyes, any possible rekindling) and your daughter (who has a friend here) is to exit with grace.

Don't blow it up. Don't hang on weakly. Don't make a drama. Just mentally pull yourself back. Let go of thing s like "she used to love the license plates". That time is gone.  Limit the conversation with her to platonic topics.

Having some low level connection will keep from kicking in the abandonment anxiety on either side.  You can start rebuilding yourself. I'd think twice about going "No Contact".  I'm not saying don't do it - just saying that it can kick up a lot of abandonment anxiety.  You can accomplish what you need with Controlled Contact and not create the anxiety.

This will be the most attractive thing for your daughter - and for you - even the ex. Show strength and confidence in yourself as a man and a father.

As for the video, I'd ask myself is it worth the risk. Especially keeping in mind that you're likely to get back one of four things, damning footage, innocent footage, inconclusive footage, or no footage - in other words, a significant chance of less than clear information. And even if she isn't with someone else, she's telling you she isn't with you - its not a "pick one or the other".

If you're looking for proof that it is over, she already telling you.  

I can understand wanting to know if it has gone so far that she is involved with someone. If that is where you are, and to answer the question above, use the information to make a smart personal decision, but otherwise don't share it with daughter, or friends, or your ex - anyone other than a very trusted confidant. That could really backfire. And decide ahead of time if you really want to look at any photos… that could burn painful image in your mind that will make your recovery/detachment harder.

I feel for you being in such a vulnerable situation.

[TheDude]

My question is twofold. Is surveillance ethical? Will it make you smarter or will it hurt you more?

Allow me to extend on this 'food for thought' question. One of the most talked about aspects of what most of us here have needed to deal with for ourselves is boundaries. While it seems to be true that the violation of boundaries in these kinds of relationships is often lopsided, isn't the concept itself a 2-way street? If the current status of the relationship is outside the realm of commitment, is this not - at the very least - an invasion of privacy? Can we expect to have healthy and mature boundaries if we cannot respect those of others?

These are rhetorical questions, of course.

Learning Fast, there's one option to your current situation that hasn't been mentioned. Have you considered declining having her spied on at all?

[Learning Fast]

Thanks to all for the commentary---very helpful.

Skip---spot on advice as I've thought about your comments over the past several months as the relationship waned.  To a degree we've been LC since June so these recent develpments don't have the shock factor they might have had three months ago.  In other words, the unwinding of the relationship has been more of a meandering process than an abrupt event.  Any contact/conversations in the past couple of months have been normal chit chat that have followed the pattern of a relationship that is winding down.  Thankfully I found this site almost a year ago and have had plenty of time to emotionally and mentally prepare for this.  Any surveillance info will be kept confidential and I don't plan to view any photos or video.  This is a straight "up or down" vote so to speak.  Why surveillance?  I'm a pretty definitive person (perhaps slightly "black/white" myself!) and whatever is uncovered will represent the equivalent of "writing down the bad times" or something similar that many other nons use to remain clinical.

[Learning Fast]

Additionally, I do plan to exit gracefully and compassionately.  Graceful as there is no upside to an emotional and dramatic departure. Compassionate as I never experienced some of the more awful behaviors expressed in many posts, did enjoy our time together and realize that she suffers from a disorder where she is the only one who can help herself.

[Learning Fast]

Not to drag the story out any further, but I did reread my initial post and forgot to include the important fact that my ex-wife is a huge trigger for my uBPDgf.  That being said, I always struggled with telling her what my ex-wife and I said and did (classic "walking on eggshells" but did error on the side of transparency.  Unfortunately this resulted in the following---"Well, if you still have feelings for her you can always go back", or "We can always find other people you know" to the classic "If I run into someone else I might just move on".  So the truthfullness of her response "I met someone whom I think of fondly" when I informed her of attending an event for my wife is somewhat questionable.  Hence my interest in coming to some type of finality led to initiating surveillance. Like all of us I don't want to be the third wheel on a trike.

[Skip]

That is a big fact…

Now that things have cooled, why don't you just ask.

I get the feeling you are trying to trick yourself here.  What I mean about that is that you are vulnerable (everyone is in this situation) and you are trying to recondition your own emotions so you can avoid experiencing them - such as wanting to a video to show that she is a scoundrel rather than exposing yourself to the pain of losing someone you care for.

Come clean with yourself - Face the Facts (I get $.04 cents every time I plug the name) if you will. If you truly want to save the relationship, go over to the Staying Board and discuss it there. Something isn't working, so maybe its time to shift gears. It may help - may not.  The ex-wife treat is something many women struggle with… especially if you have a healthy relationship (the thing you want when raising kids together and apart).

If you think its not a good fit for you (protective emotions aside), work here with the members to exit with grace, face the hurt (much better than burying it, in the long run), be a good role model for you daughter.

Good mental health is often making hard choices.

[Learning Fast]

Skip---you certainly deserve more than $.04 a mention for all of your work---you ought to renegotiate your contract  .  I certainly could ask but very much doubt that I will get the truth.  I sense that she wants to keep my tethered for a recycle and I'm not interested in an ongoing rollercoaster ride.

That being said, I do need to work on facing the pain/hurt/emotions as well.  There are many resources on the site and am not asking you to do my homework but where would be the best place to start?

[Skip]

Here is the editorial page for broken relationships - its a good place to get a foundation... .

https://bpdfamily.com/portfolio-broken

Pick a Board/Direction and just hang it out there as honestly as you can.  We're anonymous, we don't have to posture or protect egos here.

[Learning Fast]

Skip (and everyone else)---thanks for your help and guidance.  This site in general and specifically your words of wisdom have helped in more ways than you could ever know.

[Learning Fast]

Update.  We can only hope that the CIA and other intelligence agencies are as thorough and effective as these PIs.  Tons of info on not only the activities but the replacement as well.  Many questions were answered in addition to the confirmation of what was suspected (the replacement is from another state which explains why my now exuBPDgf has kept me tethered).  Didn't view any photos or video and don't plan to.  I just wanted the summary facts.  Again---forewarned is forearmed.

Just like all pwBPD are different so are nons IMHO.  Although my choice of methods might seem to be extreme (and I would NOT recommend this approach for any non who hasn't had a couple of months prior to detach and unwind from the relationship) they were the equivalent of a relationship ":)NR" for me.  Most gravely ill relationships ebb and flow with faint flickers of hope even though we know the outcome is terminal.  I could have continued the dance for another several months but that simply didn't appeal to me.   Proceeding in this manner allowed me to execute on the DNR on my timetable when the opportunity came.

In many ways I consider myself lucky in that I captured 80% of the upside and 20% of the downside.  Her ex-husband of 18 yrs had the exact opposite ratios.  The the new guy (who is somewhat of a womanizer according the intel) will end up like the rest of us at some point. I truly hope that he finds this site as I did.

Now the hard part---feeling the pain, hurt and emotion while moving forward.  And preparing for an eventual recycle attempt.  I can't thank everyone on these boards enough for all of your experience, advice and support.  Even though none of us have ever met, the closeness that I feel with this group is like one that I would feel with a longtime friend.  Best of luck to all.

[Skip]

LF,

Well, the work is just starting my friend. I really encourage you to stay around and work through this loss. That's why we opened the doors here.

So what did you learn that you didn't know (sincere question)?  Or is it just the certainty of it all?

Skip

[Learning Fast]

Skip---very true indeed---this is just the end of the beginning and not the beginning of the end.  I'm definitely going to stay around as all of you were on my path at one point.  I look forward to moving ahead with the support of the terrific advice on this board.

Sincere answer---certainty was the ONLY reason.  Months spent on this site learning about the disorder allowed me to accept BPD for what it is, my exuBPDgf for what she is and detachment for what it would be.  I wanted a more definitive ending versus the "what happened?" or "what if?" that I've sadly read about in so many threads.