Family bashing and alienation

[Sarah girl]

I have a question on how to handle something. My BPD mom continuously bashes and hate-talks members of our extended family everytime we speak. All our relatives take turns on her wheel-of-loathing. She calls them names, says they're uncaring, terrible people who are never there for her and who relish in stabbing her in the back. Most of all, she accuses everyone of being jelaous of her and wanting her to have a difficult life and goes on to say that God has punished them with bad kids for what they have done to her.

It's bothersome and offensive to me. It has also caused quite a bit of alienation over the years as well as a sense of suspicion towards everybody. I have very minimal contact with my relatives. Whenever she hears that I've had contact with one of them, she wants a full transcript of what was said and automatically accuses me of betraying her. She tells me outright that I am not to have any contact with them unles it's through her.

When I don't reinforce or agree with her statements about how and why so-and-so is evil, horrible, bad, etc., she starts to insist more strongly and gets quite worked up. The worst part is, when these people actually visit her, she is the nicest person around them. She serves them hand and foot and then tells me how ungrateful they are for all that she's done for them.

She has been doing this as long as I can remember and I have been expected to hate them behind their backs and keep up appearances when we see them. I'm fed up with all of this.

Also, and this is the biggie I'm trying to deal with these days: I haven't spoken to my dad in over a decade (since my parents seperated). She hates him so much that any mention of him puts her in an instant uncontrollable rage regardless of where she is or who is there. She has said to me that if I ever try to contact him she will disappear from my life. When my parents broke up, I never allowed myself to have any feelings about my own relationship with my dad. The mission was always to rescue and protect my mom. I became her therapist, punching bag, caregiver and even supported her financially for a while. Now I find myself having thoughts of regret and sadness about my dad (who is no saint,  incidentally). I'm feeling torn.

I don't know how I can go on this way with her. I was wondering if anyone here has any coping strategies that would help without me becoming her target (or more of a target). Just throwing the question out there... .Thanks

[Kwamina]

Hi Sarah girl

It's difficult having a mother who behaves this way. Your mother sounds quite controlling. I suggest you take a look at our article about how we let our loved ones control us, here's an excerpt:

... .fear, obligation or guilt ("FOG" are the transactional dynamics at play between the controller and the person being controlled.  Understanding these dynamics are useful to anyone trying to extricate themselves from the controlling behavior by another person and deal with their own compulsions to do things that are uncomfortable, undesirable, burdensome, or self-sacrificing for others.

Would you say your mother uses fear, obligation and guilt to try and control you?

You can read the entire article here:

Fear, Obligation And Guilt (FOG): How We Allow Loved Ones To Control Us

You also mention that after your parents broke up, your mother basically made you become her rescuer, therapist, punching bag, caregiver etc. This reminds me of the terms 'parentification' and 'emotional incest':

The term "emotional incest" was coined by Kenneth Adams, Ph.D. to label the state of cross-generational bonding within a family, whereby a child becomes a surrogate spouse for their mother or father. "Emotional Enmeshment" is another term often used. And the term "emotional parentification" describes a similar concept - it describes the process of role reversal whereby a child is obliged to act as parent to their own parent.

The difference between a healthy close relationship and an incestuous one is that in a healthy close relationship a parent takes care of a child's needs in an age-appropriate way without making the child feel responsible the emotional needs of the parents needs. In an emotionally incestuous relationship, instead of the parent meeting the needs of the child, the child is meeting the needs of the parent.

Emotional incest happens when the natural boundary between parental caregiver, nurturer, and protector is crossed and the child becomes the defacto caregiver, nurturer and protector of the parent. This typically occurs when the marriage unravels or when there is a broken family dynamic (e.g., substance abuse, infidelity, mental illness and the dependency upon a child increases.

Would you say any of the above applies to your experiences with your mother?

[Sarah girl]

Hello Kwamina! 

To amswer your first question, yes! FOG seems to be the very methodology that my mom has used since I can remember. Guilt is her way of throwing me off balance. It throws a monkey wrench in my own judgement to the point where I can no longer identify what I want to do/be vs what I have to do/be. It creates a haze in my own thinking and I just end up doing what she wants and numbing my own feelings about things. Well, I have been until recently. I now feel resentment towards her and it's hard for me to feel any affection or positive emotion when I think about her. I know I have a long way to go before things get clear. I do realize that I have to start learning to identify what I want and that what I want also matters.

Which brings me to your point about emotional incest. This is something I've been trying to wrap my head around for a while. I read about the concept a little while ago and my thoughts have been shifting. At first I thought her parentificationof me was not her fault because she really never had anyone else to talk to due to her own difficult and desperate circumstances. It's tough to think about it without assuming responsibility. After all, it has always felt like looking after her was my choice. However, just last week, I started to feel like she violated something fundamental in me. And I absolutely hate idetifying myself as a victim. I have had to visualize going back in time to that first moment in my life where I felt I needed to be her rescuer. I have visualized telling my four-year-old self to walk away and that everything would be fine and that I would protect her. It's a painful process and doesn't come naturally to me.

These days, I try to be an observer or onlooker when I'm interacting with her. I want to try and have an objective perspective on what's going on here. I speak to her less often and try to keep things neutral. I have also reached a point where I don't want her to give me anything or do anything for me. Very often she imposes things on me & my family such as unwanted and useless gifts and visits which are more toxic than anything else (under the guise of "helping out" and then goes into a rage when she doesn't get what she thinks she's owed in return. I'd rather go it alone than have her involved in any aspect of my life. Her presence has always made things more difficult and dramatic.

Thanks for the resources. I have looked through the material and am working hard to try to be more mindful of my own behaviour. I have noticed that I have a very hard time accepting help or kindness from anybody and that I truly believe that people will ultimately let me down and nothing comes without strings. These are the beliefs that I'm trying to work on now and also hoping to change. 

[lstar]

Hey there Sarah Girl,

When I read your initial post, it seemed to me that you might be living with your BPD mother - until I read your response to the moderator where you mentioned that your mother comes over to your house.  It sounds like you take an awful lot of your time - and your mental and emotional resources - to listen to her rant and rave and degrade.  My mom treats me SO badly during her rages and dysphoric phases that I now do not want anything to do with her.  She does call me though, after her raging subsides, and I tell point blank that I can't listen to her (over the phone because we never visit her) talk about how my dad's trying to kill her or about my dad's current affair (he's 80!).  If she doesn't stop, I tell her that I'm going to put the phone down and walk away and that I'll check the phone every now and then to see when she's done complaining.  Or, she has the option of changing the subject right now, if she prefers.  Sometimes this leads her to rage at me and not speak to me for up to a month, and sometimes she agrees and changes the subject.  I don't like talking to her no matter what the subject is... .so, she never gets my full attention... .I surf the web, brush the dog, brush my teeth, go get the mail, read the mail, etc. while listening just enough to pick up on when I should say "uh-hu" and "hmmm".  And BTW - if she's talking to you about how bad your relatives are, she's likely talking to them about how bad you are (I speak from experience).  Just think... .if you gave up on your relationship with your mom, you could have relationships with your dad and multitudes of relatives too.  Weighs heavily to one side, huh?

[Sarah girl]

Thanks Istar,

You are right that I'm paying attention to what she's saying. I'm just beginning to understand that this behaviour is not acceptable. I was always uncomfortable with it, but felt like I needed to be there for her. She has nobody else. There's my brother but she never burdens him with her hate-talk and rage. No matter what he does, she's nothing but supportive of him. It has been this sense of obligation, this "I expect more from you" that set the tone as her being the most important person and priority. The problem is, I'm starting to realize that as much as was expected from me, she has had zero accountability all of these years. Not only has she never said sorry, her stance is that I don't do enough for her and should be ashamed. So I'm doing less and going through the process of trying to be comfortable with that. The guilt part is very difficult. It's easy to fall back into the usual dynamic.

It's sad that I'm purely driven by guilt and that I've reached a point now that if I didn't feel like I had to, I don't think I would reach out to her out of my own free will. I don't know if I love my mother. How terrible is that? I fear her rage, I'm fed up with her, I'm worried about her ending up alone, but I don't feel affection for her at all. Most of the time, I just turn off my feelings and bear it until she's done.

I have a family. Happily married with two kids and a third on the way. My son is her golden child and my daughter is someone she's had it in for since day one. She used to come over every day when my kids were babies and accuse me of making me put her life on hold. I never asked her to come over and she only ever dumped on me while she was here.

These days, we see her about once a month. Even then, it's very difficult. It's a work in progress. I look forward to the day where I can do what you do and no longer invest energy in the relationship. Courage comes in small doses.

[lstar]

Hi Sarah Girl,

I just noticed - you say you're worried about your mom being left all alone... .but she has all those relatives that come to visit her.  I don't know how often though.  Could you start out by refusing to give her the details of your conversations with those relatives?  If she starts digging into you, could you tell her that visiting time is over and that you have to get off the phone or leave her house... .and then GO! ":)on't try this at home", however,  because if she's visiting you at your house, you may not be able to get her to leave when she starts flying off the handle (crossing the border into psychosis).  Who are these relatives?  Are they cousins of yours, your own age?  You should be able to have free access to them.  I have a cousin in Spain who recently contacted me on facebook.  I told my mom and she said, "He shouldn't do that without asking me first!"  I told her to take it up with him.  I'm not as strong as I sound, Sarah.  I just can't stand my mom anymore. 

 

The stress you're getting from her is not good for your unborn child either.  You could look up some information about "maternal stress" coupled with "in utero" and see what comes up.  Development of your baby's nervous system and brain is affected by your stress.  Your husband might help you out with ending conversations with your mom, esp. if he knew it could effect your new little one.  Just hand him the phone (but prep him first).

One last point, now that I know you have children.  When I call my parents house to talk to my dad, my mom sometimes answers the phone and when she hears it's me and she's in a bad mood, she turns into viper mode and says with anger "What do you want?"  I fall apart.  My heart starts to race, my palms get sweaty, my breathing becomes shallow, and I have to sit down.  And she's only on the phone!  I have children too.  My behavior towards my kids changes after my mother's been on the phone.  I become short-tempered with them.  I tell them I am sorry and that they haven't done anything wrong but that nana answered the phone and spit fire at me.  My kids know what she's like (read my post about my "elderly mom" - I'm asking what to do about this problem, maybe you can help me).  I've even sent them to bed early without good-night kisses and stories because of her - she leaves me reeling.  This effect on my kids is a huge part of why I don't want anything to do with her and why I never give her any part of myself - even when all she wants to do is talk normally.  Is your mom effecting your children through torturing you?  Does this bring out your worst, or the momma bear in you that wants to protect your children?  I can abandon my mom without a second thought in order to be a better mom to my kids... .my mom is not a child and I finally decided to hold her accountable for her behavior.  Some people will say that because she's BPD, she's not in charge of herself.  Yes, it's true.  But I need to protect myself in order to protect my kids.  So for me, the fact that she's BPD doesn't excuse her, it just means she's never going to change.  Good luck, Sarah.  If you think I'm helpful, I'll keep writing to you.  If you think I'm too brutal, let me know.  I don't want to upset you. 

[Kwamina]

Hi again Sarah girl

Thanks for answering my questions.

I now feel resentment towards her and it's hard for me to feel any affection or positive emotion when I think about her.

I think this is a normal reaction that you experience these kinds of emotions as you start to realize that the way your mother treated you constitutes abuse. Perhaps you can benefit from taking a look at the Survivor's Guide for adults who suffered childhood abuse in the right-hand side margin of this board. The guide takes you from survivor to thriver through 3 major stages: 1. Remembering, 2. Mourning and 3. healing. When you look at the guide, where do you feel you are now? Are there any particular areas listed there that you currently find yourself working on or struggling with?

However, just last week, I started to feel like she violated something fundamental in me. And I absolutely hate idetifying myself as a victim.

What does the 'label' of 'victim' represent to you? What kind of thoughts go through your head and what kind of feelings do you experience when you think about the label 'victim' being applied to you?

I have had to visualize going back in time to that first moment in my life where I felt I needed to be her rescuer. I have visualized telling my four-year-old self to walk away and that everything would be fine and that I would protect her. It's a painful process and doesn't come naturally to me.

Is it painful because visualizing the 4 year old you perhaps also makes you feel like a victim? How would you look at another 4 year old who was treated the way you were as a child?

These days, I try to be an observer or onlooker when I'm interacting with her. I want to try and have an objective perspective on what's going on here.

... .

Thanks for the resources. I have looked through the material and am working hard to try to be more mindful of my own behaviour. I have noticed that I have a very hard time accepting help or kindness from anybody and that I truly believe that people will ultimately let me down and nothing comes without strings. These are the beliefs that I'm trying to work on now and also hoping to change.  

Mindfulness can be very helpful as we try to heal ourselves. It's great that you are able to notice areas that you might still need to work on and are able to see more clearly what is going on now That by itself already is significant progress which can be the catalyst for further growth

[Sarah girl]

Hello Istar,

To answer your last question first, I don't think you're brutal at all. I think you're at the end of our rope with your mom and it's clear that something needs to change. I also think it's helpful for me to get your perspective on things because I've spent so many years thinking only about my mom's needs and emotionally ignoring myself completely. I would very much like to continue chatting with you .

I did read your post and your situation seems absolutely painful. It's also quite familiar to me. Over the years, I have often found myself having a fight or flight response with my mom and then being angry for days. Of course it impacts my family. When my kids were very young and she would do her worst like publicly accuse me of not loving my son (who is her favourite) in a fit of rage because I didn't buy him the $200 remote control car at the mall, it would completely destroy me emotionally. I would put the kids in front of the TV and go off to have a good cry. I know my frustration created tension. It was bad for the kids, for my marriage and my sanity. Most of all, I internalized it and set it aside for my children's sake but my sadness was ever-present. I never allowed myself to be happy. It's interesting that you mention your mom is not a child. Whenever my mom would come over, I always felt like I had a third child. Her tantrums were by far the worst and my knee-jerk reaction was to try to appease them. I ran around like a headless chicken trying to please everyone at once. My strategy was to try make everyone laugh so that the kids wouldn't be frightened.

In your case, I can offer support and understanding. I think it took a lot of courage for you to get some distance and establish clear boundaries. You are an accomplished person and have done it all despite the emotional chaos of a BPD mom. That is HUGE in my book. The fact is, you may feel like that child when she rages but you are not that little child anymore. Remember that FACT when she starts acting up. You can take control even if you're in the thick of a panic attack. When I notice my breathing getting shallow, I slow my breathing down and start counting to calm myself and then remind myself of the basic facts: I am a grown woman, I am safe and I am entitled to my own personhood and peace. I've been having panic attacks my entire life.

Sometimes I would just pass out. I didn't even know that they were panic attacks until an ER doctor told me that I was suffering from severe anxiety. If, as you say, you don't want to give her any part of yourself, then the challenge here is to learn to be resilient when faced with her "viper mode". From my own personal experience, I'm learning that it takes time and counselling and habit-forming to manage fight-or-flight responses. t's really easy to say but monumentally difficult to do. But every time you try, you get closer to being free of it. Cut yourself some slack because it's a lifetime of default responses that need to be unlearned.

To answer your questions about relatives, we have many but they don't come around very often. They used to be more present but she has raged at some of them in the past so they are all very wary of her. I have aunts, uncles and lots of cousins. I used to be very close to one of my aunts until my mom blacklisted her for some perceived betrayal. They all live far away and I miss them a lot. I intend on reconnecting with them slowly. She has resorted to hate-talking me to them in the past to keep us apart.


I have a really sweet brother who is kind of like your sister. My mom doesn't expect him to "parent" her but my mom is his only trusted friend. He's in a relationship with a very nice lady and he won't commit to her because my mom says she's an old hag who is not to be trusted. In reality, she's younger than my brother and just about the most patient and lovely girl he's ever been with. My brother may be my mom's golden child, but he's totally missing out on having his own life. I don't envy him and I don't envy your sister.

The only time I've ever ended a conversation with my mom or walked out on her was when she was out of line with my kids. She once tried to physically prevent me from picking up my son who was a toddler at the time and I flat out pointed to the door. Another time was when she went into a psychotic rage accusing my then 5-year-old daughter of conspiring against her. I shut that down really fast. When it comes to protecting my kids, I am very capable of drawing the line. My challenge is to recognize and do the same for myself without feeling guilty about it.

Please let me know how things progress with your mom    

[Sarah girl]

Hi Kwarmina,

Thanks for your response You have given me a lot of food for thought. When I look at the guide on this page, I'm not sure that I'm going through these steps in the order that they are listed. I struggle with #5 & 6. I have trouble accepting that I was powerless and that my mom is accountable. As well, I struggle with the whole issue of absolving myself of disappointment and shame. I think this is why I have so much guilt. I think I'm still assuming a lot of the responsibility.

On the plus side, I do feel empowered by addressing and validating my inner child (#7). I know that I've overcome a lot of things despite the BPD. I'm proud of the conscious effort that I'm making to identify and not repeat the same patterns. I am also working hard on #15 -  to accept that I can take part in life's riches and that my life and experiences are my own and not an extension of my mom. I'm trying not to exist to make her happy but to be happy without guilt. This is where I am for now and hope to feel more like a whole person as time goes by.

As for my discomfort with the "victim" label, there are many reasons. I was always the responsible one. Being the victim feels passive and helpless. It also makes me feel weak and vulnerable - like someone else is controlling my fate. I have come to learn that vulnerability makes one a target. I'd rather be strong and responsible instead of saying that so-and-so did this-and-that to me. Does that make sense?

As for the childhood memories that are creeping up, it's hard to separate the child from me, who went through the experience. It's still hard for me to look at it purely as a little child going through this without re-living the experiences. I get drawn into feelings of sadness and helplessness. Last week was the first time ever that I visualized myself as an adult coming into the room and taking the child aside. It was sad and difficult. I did it anyway.

If it were another 4-year-old, I would see that she needs help and protection. I would remove her from the situation and tell her that she has nothing o do with her mom's crisis and that it's not her job to rescue her mom. I would also probably confront the mom. However, I don't think confronting my own mom is ever going to elicit more than a psychotic episode.

Thanks for all your encouragement. These days it feels like I'm taking one step forward and several steps back. I'm starting to see familiar memories in a very different light. I'm starting to feel strong enough to start establishing boundaries. At the same time, I feel paralyzed with worry about what the future holds. I've limited my contact with my mom and feel like the pressure is building for another huge meltdown that will be directed at me when I'm at my most vulnerable - i.e. when I'm in labour and nursing a newborn like the last time. I don't want for the birth of my third child to be all about crisis because my mom had a complete psychotic breakdown during what's supposed to be one of the happiest days of my family's life. I'm scared and angry.

[Kwamina]

Hi again Sarah girl

Sounds like you've already been doing a lot of work on yourself

When I look at the guide on this page, I'm not sure that I'm going through these steps in the order that they are listed.

The healing process outlined in the Survivors' Guide isn't necessarily a linear process. More often than not I think members will find themselves working on several steps at the same time and periodically revisiting steps they've already worked on before. I know I do

I struggle with #5 & 6. I have trouble accepting that I was powerless and that my mom is accountable. As well, I struggle with the whole issue of absolving myself of disappointment and shame. I think this is why I have so much guilt. I think I'm still assuming a lot of the responsibility.

... .

As for my discomfort with the "victim" label, there are many reasons. I was always the responsible one. Being the victim feels passive and helpless. It also makes me feel weak and vulnerable - like someone else is controlling my fate. I have come to learn that vulnerability makes one a target. I'd rather be strong and responsible instead of saying that so-and-so did this-and-that to me. Does that make sense?

I think your discomfort with the "victim" label might be connected to your struggles with steps 5 and 6 of the Survivors' Guide. Accepting the "victim" label would also mean accepting that you were powerless over your mother's abuse and that you weren't in control. Do you perhaps feel that by not accepting the "victim" label in some ways it would be like the abuse didn't really happen? Something that might help is to consider that yes you WERE a victim, but you ARE a survivor working hard to BECOME a thriver.

As for the childhood memories that are creeping up, it's hard to separate the child from me, who went through the experience. It's still hard for me to look at it purely as a little child going through this without re-living the experiences. I get drawn into feelings of sadness and helplessness. Last week was the first time ever that I visualized myself as an adult coming into the room and taking the child aside. It was sad and difficult. I did it anyway.

If it were another 4-year-old, I would see that she needs help and protection. I would remove her from the situation and tell her that she has nothing o do with her mom's crisis and that it's not her job to rescue her mom.

We have a thread here about exercises for self-insight in which we recently discussed several exercises for getting in touch with your inner-child. I suggest you also take a look them:

Exercises for self-insight

I'm starting to feel strong enough to start establishing boundaries. At the same time, I feel paralyzed with worry about what the future holds. I've limited my contact with my mom and feel like the pressure is building for another huge meltdown that will be directed at me when I'm at my most vulnerable - i.e. when I'm in labour and nursing a newborn like the last time. I don't want for the birth of my third child to be all about crisis because my mom had a complete psychotic breakdown during what's supposed to be one of the happiest days of my family's life. I'm scared and angry.

I understand your concerns, especially given your past experiences. To help prepare yourself for whatever might come next, I've selected some resources about setting and enforcing/defending firm boundaries and ways to firmly assert yourself:

Setting Boundaries and Setting Limits

Assert yourself: D.E.A.R.M.A.N. technique

Take care and I hope this is of some help to you

[GirlsCanDoMath]

Wow.

I cannot believe how much your mother is like my mother. She behaves the same way with her family. I remember going to family functions, when we would leave she would trash everyone.

It has also caused quite a bit of alienation over the years as well as a sense of suspicion towards everybody. I have very minimal contact with my relatives. Whenever she hears that I've had contact with one of them, she wants a full transcript of what was said and automatically accuses me of betraying her. She tells me outright that I am not to have any contact with them unles it's through her.

I feel the same way about my family. My mother has never come out and said "they are my family, your communication has to go to through me" but its always been implied. My mother exaggerates and lies and I know she talks bad to them about me just as much as she talks bad about them to me.

My father left my mother too... .about six months ago now. She would strongly prefer I didn't communicate with him, but I do and it usually sends her over the edge. She calls me and tries to start arguments.

Recently we went NC for about 2 months. My therapist always told me the going NC would be my only option.

Finally she got mad at me and told me to never speak to her again so I decided to roll with it and see how my life would be without her in it. My life was fine because I am not dependent on her AT ALL. My sister, however, still lives at home because she is in college. She started treating my sister badly and I was worried that she might be doing it because we are not speaking.

So I called her. 

She flipped out and got toxic really quick. Started telling me that I was a bad investment

My husband grabbed the phone, had some words, and hung up on her. She began blowing up my phone leaving me nasty messages all day. The next day she sends me a text (clearly written by someone else... .I assume it was her enabling mother or one of her sisters) telling me how she apologizes and doesn't express her anger in the best way... .but it is still my fault... .and shes the victim... was the basic message .

Recently we have been texting and playing nice... .she has been treating my sister a lot better since we started texting.

Ive been reading a book that helps. "Understanding the borderline mother"

Going NC is difficult, but sometimes necessary. I would have kept it NC if my sister was on her own.

I know this probably makes me a codependent or something... .but I remember living there and how difficult it was. I would hate to see anyone go through what I went through. 



Best 

B. 

[Sarah girl]

Yes, it definitely sounds like our moms have a lot in common. I understand you not wanting to leave your sister to fend for herself. I totally get it. Nobody should ever have to go through that. BTW, my mom also tells me that I'm a bad investment and how she had to put her life on hold when I came along, yada, yada. It comes up everytime she feels she didn't get what she was entitled to.

I admire your boldness when it comes to your keeping in touch with your dad. I wish one day I could bring myself to do the same.

[indifferent]

I have a question on how to handle something. My BPD mom continuously bashes and hate-talks members of our extended family everytime we speak.

She serves them hand and foot and then tells me how ungrateful they are for all that she's done for them.

She has been doing this as long as I can remember and I have been expected to hate them behind their backs and keep up appearances when we see them. I'm fed up with all of this.

I totally resonate with you.  My mother is the exact same!  For as long as I remember she's been the biggest gossiper I've known.  She's unable to have a conversation without talking badly about people which I find really funny (in a not funny way) because she's got too many issues and bad traits to mention.  She also pretends a lot, she'll be your friend but then behind doors she'll make nasty comments.  To be honest, people with BPD do have a face in public and another one in private, so this kind of behavior is normal and they don't see anything wrong with it.  People aren't stupid though, many of her family have turned their backs on her.

Also, when they're caught in these rumors or comments they'll deny it.  My mother has told me that one of her sisters have a screw loose and is crazy (ironic isn't it)?  She told this to my cousin as well, and when the sister found out and confronted it, she denied it.  She even told me she's never said that, and I just sat not even bothering to discuss it knowing the outcome is going to be the same, deny deny.