Am I involved in a love triangle?

[unicorn2014]

It's been a few days since I've posted about my r/s. I have recovered from the shock of discovering there was no legal record of my fiancé filing  for divorce at all, despite his claim he filed, withdrew, and filed again. I have decided to stay in the r/s because of the help he provides to my daughter and I as well as his humor, intelligence, creativity, productivity and willingness. I will admit I am not comfortable calling a man my fiancé when he is still legally married to another woman yet the whole reason he approached me was to marry me!

I am also not at all happy that there is no record of his filing nor the fact he saw fit to propose to me while still legally married to another woman. When our r/s began she was still living with him, he asked her to move the morning after I found out he was married by way of her posing as him after he fell asleep during a text conversation. That was a really bad night. I made her call me up on the phone and identify herself to make sure she was for real. This is not the first time he broke up with this woman. Now that I know what triangulation is I am  struggling with resentment, judgment and feeling like a victim. She of course blamed me.

I broached the topic of triangulation with him today and he denied but I'm going to keep reading. He states the whole reason he is divorcing  his wife a second time is because he fell in love with me and that doesn't impress me at all. In fact it feels like he is blaming me. He refers to her as his ex roommate as he had been sleeping on the couch for 8 years before I met him by his own choice.

I wanted to make a current post about this subject because nobody had posted in the other thread for 90 days. Have of any you been involved in a triangle created by your pwBPD? Were you able to successfully exit it and stay in the r/s?



Mod note: difference between triangulation and love triangle

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[LonelyChild]

Have of any you been involved in a triangle created by your pwBPD? Were you able to successfully exit it and stay in the r/s?

I've been involved in many. My uBPDxgf would often go to others and cry over how horribly I treated her - that I was abusive and so on. None of which was true, obviously.

The last one - she got another guy hooked and told him how abusive I was. She'd then come to me and tell me how worthless and stupid he was. I spoke to him and told him my point of view, which he believed (he was already suspicious, I think, and my pov seemed honest to him, which it was). He never wanted anything to do with her again after that.

This was very hard for me emotionally since she had cheated on me again (12th time, from what I know). I detached, and this was the last of it. I didn't break contact with her, but I had detached emotionally. All of a sudden, I was her everything and she'd die for me.

I think there is something to be understood about triangles: It's not about creating drama, it's fear of abandonment. When he is with you, he's triggered (fear of abandonment) in relation to this other woman. When he is with her, he's triggered by his relation to you. This back and forth is a futile attempt to manage his fear of abandonment, not an attempt to be an a-hole towards either of you.

When he's with you, he feels safe for a little bit. This is when (in that particular state of mind) he starts talking about leaving the other woman. Then, as distance increases in that relation, he goes back to it and pretends you are worth nothing (in that particular state of mind).

This results in a sort of oscillating triangle where he's moving from corner to corner trying to stabilize it, but really the only thing he can do is let go of one of them.

I was not able to stay in this r/s after this realization, because it goes much, much deeper than my ex's relationship to me - it has to do with childhood issues. Dating me, marrying me, moving in with me, is not going to change that. This is a fact that you have to accept. However, it CAN be managed with much work. To me, it is not worth that amount of work. To you, it might. It is, however, important that you do not fantasize about him "waking up" or coming to some kind of realization and changing his behavior. It is NOT going to happen. You need to find other ways of managing the triangle he is creating around you.

[unicorn2014]

Lonely child , thank you for your reply.

He is not with this other woman. For some reason there is not a record that he has filed for divorce from her even though he claims he has. He has been physically separated from her for 3 years. He says he was never in love with her. He says he's in love with me.

I do think it was fear of abandonment that allowed him to propose to me while still legally married to her yet he claims she emotionally abandoned him a long time ago. In fact he claimed that's what allowed to pursue a r/s with me, because she wasn't acting like his wife. He says if she acted like his wife then he never would've pursued me.

[LonelyChild]

Lonely child , thank you for your reply.

He is not with this other woman. For some reason there is not a record that he has filed for divorce from her even though he claims he has. He has been physically separated from her for 3 years. He says he was never in love with her. He says he's in love with me.

Do you know this for a fact, or is it merely what he is claiming? How does he usually react when you bring this up?

He's obviously lying about filing for divorce. Have you asked him about this? How did he react?

I do think it was fear of abandonment that allowed him to propose to me while still legally married to her yet he claims she emotionally abandoned him a long time ago. In fact he claimed that's what allowed to pursue a r/s with me, because she wasn't acting like his wife. He says if she acted like his wife then he never would've pursued me.

Yes, I'm sure he feels that way. If you'd ask my ex, she'd say the same thing: I had abandoned her over and over again. My experience was different - me chasing after her begging her not to run out of the apartment in the middle of the night. If I did, she would go tell others how I abusively prevented her from leaving the apartment and attempted to control her.

A rule of thumb is to judge someone by their actions, not their words or thoughts. Do you feel that his behavior matches what he's saying to you?

[Daniell85]

I was in this situation, once, as I told you about.

Ok, he claims he has filed for divorce. What is he doing to follow up on this? He would have an attorney, probably, who would have the original documents, with his signature on them. If he filed, his wife would have been served. She would have those documents, in addition to his attorney and the court.

Sensibly, it is really easy to get a copy from his attorney and show them to you, in order to reassure you that even if the ball was dropped somewhere, his intentions have had action taken on them.

In his love for you and out of concern for a child he intends to raise as his own, this man has some convincing of you to do that would take minimal effort to do by him.

It's natural to want a positive male figure in your daughter's life. You are covering up for him to your daughter. How long can this be done without the eventuality that someone obviously is being deceptive, not caring for real, and your child takes a very damaging hit?

Additionally he is blame shifting onto his wife to appeal to you. It is not the lady's fault he chose to cheat on her and act dishonestly with her and set you up for this. He isn't taking any responsibility for himself with the cheating and making you an OW, he isn't following up to prove to you that he has filed for divorce. As a result your trust is continuing to be violated.

It's a tough and painful scenario.

I am curious, too, about what your plans are here? Are you going to insist he follow up on his claims, or are you planning to sit and wait and see? Or... .?

[patientandclear]

Building on what LonelyChild wrote--my eyes were opened about not assuming the truth of stories about what went wrong in my BPD person's past r/ships when I learned from others how completely counter-factual his account was. He had a long time gf whom he portrayed as emotionally cold and abandoning. From all accounts from others who knew them, this was not the case. He experienced it that way, but it sounds like she was a normal, warm, thoughtful person who occasionally had other priorities and who loved him a ton (and endured a vast amount of pain).

So that already made me take his accounts of r/ships with more skepticism. But then, recently, he described a r/ship he had after he broke up with me, that I referred to while explaining why I was uncertain about re-establishing some sort of r/ship with him. He completely dismissed this woman--said she was crazy basically and that there was no r/ship. The thing is, I know from many many mutual friend witnesses that this is complete fabrication.  I had read about this sort of thing but hearing him actually do it was eye-opening. The thing is, at the time, he urgently wanted me to restore our r/ship. He thought I disapproved of this other r/ship so he vanished it--even though I already knew about it and took it as a given and wasn't even making a big deal about it, was incorporating it into my set of unchanging facts. He changed it because it made his case that I was super special and important stronger. And in the same convo he vanished yet another r/ship I had conclusive evidence had existed, and got indignant when I kept acting like it did exist (because it did and that was relevant to my feelings about him).

Point being: when he has a strong incentive to try to appeal to you, the account may deviate dramatically from the truth you'd see if you were the current wife or her friends. Just to start with, if he "never loved her," why did he RE-MARRY her? My ex retrospectively never loved the other women in his life either and now probably retrospectively doesn't love me and never did and I got some crazy ideas in my head that he did. This is how he sanitizes his history for presentation to a new person. It's not true, but it's convenient.

I don't even think it's entirely conscious. I think dissociation and denial allow him to believe most of this most of the time.

[patientandclear]

Thought I should add: several of the above posts are about how it can come about that the actions of the pwBPD don't match the account you are getting, including actions and stories about another ex or current partner.

That said, your opening post is more about what can happen from here and what to do. I'm not sure it makes sense to discuss "triangulation" with him as much as boundaries going forward. He's probably not going to and may not be able to "logic" this through with you. The guy you're involved with did this (told you he was unmarried when in fact he was married) and this is an unchanging fact that you've been processing for some time. So what now? Boundary definition and enforcement are available to you about what happens from here. You and he may never agree, or you may never be entirely comfortable with his account, about how it all came about.  FWIW I never overtly challenged my ex's stories about the past r/ships though I knew they were inaccurate. They were just important data for what I had to decide going forward.

[LonelyChild]

... .

I re-read the posts in this thread, including my own. Maybe we are putting too much pressure on you?

Do you feel that him lying about his marriage to the other woman is a deal-breaker? If so, you might want to go ahead and investigate it further until you get answers to your questions, so that you can put it behind you. If you don't feel that it's a deal breaker, perhaps you should give up trying to get answers, as it appears to put much strain on you and/or your r/s.

[formflier]

 

I'm going to steal a line that Waverider uses effectively.

I'll paraphrase... .he can correct and clean it up later if I mess it up.

"Best not to try to "sell" your partner on the knowledge that you have gained about BPD... .likely they don't want to buy"

If you research triangles and believe that you are in one, then use that for your good.  My guess is that it will be one more thing for your hubby and you to argue about.   You saying yes and him denying and creating rabbit trails to divert things.

FF

[unicorn2014]

Lonely child , thank you for your reply.

He is not with this other woman. For some reason there is not a record that he has filed for divorce from her even though he claims he has. He has been physically separated from her for 3 years. He says he was never in love with her. He says he's in love with me.

Do you know this for a fact, or is it merely what he is claiming? How does he usually react when you bring this up?

He's obviously lying about filing for divorce. Have you asked him about this? How did he react?

I know for a fact that she moved out 3 years ago. I know where he goes and what he does. He really wants me to know that he is no longer with her, and that he never was in love with her or had romantic feelings toward her.

I have asked him about filing for divorce many times, in fact I have several threads about it, and he maintains that he filed, so we are going to talk about it again tomorrow. He also accused me of calling him a liar and I told him I did not call him a liar, but merely pointed out to him that my facts and his facts don't align.

I do think it was fear of abandonment that allowed him to propose to me while still legally married to her yet he claims she emotionally abandoned him a long time ago. In fact he claimed that's what allowed to pursue a r/s with me, because she wasn't acting like his wife. He says if she acted like his wife then he never would've pursued me.

A rule of thumb is to judge someone by their actions, not their words or thoughts. Do you feel that his behavior matches what he's saying to you?

Yes I truly believe he never had romantic feelings for his wife, and he was never in love with her, and I believe his actions match his words in this aspect.

[unicorn2014]

It's natural to want a positive male figure in your daughter's life. You are covering up for him to your daughter. How long can this be done without the eventuality that someone obviously is being deceptive, not caring for real, and your child takes a very damaging hit?

My daughter knows all about the situation, and she likes him as a person. As I've mentioned in my other threads, some of my other family members don't so much care that he didn't file, they care how he is conducting himself. He is very helpful with her.

Additionally he is blame shifting onto his wife to appeal to you. It is not the lady's fault he chose to cheat on her and act dishonestly with her and set you up for this. He isn't taking any responsibility for himself with the cheating and making you an OW, he isn't following up to prove to you that he has filed for divorce. As a result your trust is continuing to be violated.

Technically he claims he didn't cheat on her because he hadn't been sleeping with her for 8 years before he met me and he considered her to be a roommate. I think that is the problem, he did not see her as his wife but his roommate. She actually knew he was talking to me, he was very open with her about it, I'm the one who didn't know he was married. He said he was trying to protect me, he wanted to divorce before I found out he was married.

I am curious, too, about what your plans are here? Are you going to insist he follow up on his claims, or are you planning to sit and wait and see? Or... .?

We have another conversation scheduled for Tuesday where I will tell him I am not all comfortable with him about moving out here without any plan in place for divorce at all. I will ask him if he has filed a complaint against the county clerk and his attorney. I will tell him it seems like this isn't a priority to him but its really bothering me.

[unicorn2014]

Point being: when he has a strong incentive to try to appeal to you, the account may deviate dramatically from the truth you'd see if you were the current wife or her friends. Just to start with, if he "never loved her," why did he RE-MARRY her? My ex retrospectively never loved the other women in his life either and now probably retrospectively doesn't love me and never did and I got some crazy ideas in my head that he did. This is how he sanitizes his history for presentation to a new person. It's not true, but it's convenient.

He remarried her because he felt guilty for how he treated her in the first marriage so he wanted to make things right with her. He says this was a big mistake and he wish he had never done that.

Thank you for sharing your story.

[unicorn2014]

... .

I re-read the posts in this thread, including my own. Maybe we are putting too much pressure on you?

Do you feel that him lying about his marriage to the other woman is a deal-breaker? If so, you might want to go ahead and investigate it further until you get answers to your questions, so that you can put it behind you. If you don't feel that it's a deal breaker, perhaps you should give up trying to get answers, as it appears to put much strain on you and/or your r/s.

Thank you Lonely Child, he didn't outright lie when I asked him if he was married, he answered in a round about way that was clever enough to fool me. He said he didn't feel married so that is why he answered that way and if he felt married he never would've talked to me in the first place. I am not at all happy about how that happened however I did choose to go forward with him after I found out he was married because I was in love with him. That was my choice not his. He thought I was going to leave him when I found out he was married. I'm a different person today and today I would leave him.

The answers I am looking for is him having a plan for divorce if he is moving out here. I am not at all comfortable having things up in the air. He had talked about doing things from remote before and now I am not at all comfortable with that idea. He's in a big hurry to move out here because he thinks he needs to help me, but frankly I am more interested in him filing for divorce first and I will tell him. That's not going to be a fun conversation at all and that happens tomorrow.

[unicorn2014]

I'm going to steal a line that Waverider uses effectively.

I'll paraphrase... .he can correct and clean it up later if I mess it up.

"Best not to try to "sell" your partner on the knowledge that you have gained about BPD... .likely they don't want to buy"

If you research triangles and believe that you are in one, then use that for your good.  My guess is that it will be one more thing for your hubby and you to argue about.   You saying yes and him denying and creating rabbit trails to divert things.

FF

Formflier I agree and he has accused me of using everything I learn about BPD against him and has accused me of making it fit when it does not. So you are right I should not do that so if he brings up again I will have to tell him I decided it was not a good idea to talk about that but I wanted to talk about what his plan was to make sure his divorce was filed before he moved out here. That is the point I'm going to have to make to him tomorrow. That I don't want him moving out here if he can not be 100% certain that his divorce has been filed. He claims he can handle it from out of state, but from all appearances it doesn't look like he can even handle it in state.

[LonelyChild]

Yes I truly believe he never had romantic feelings for his wife, and he was never in love with her, and I believe his actions match his words in this aspect.

I respect that. This gives you something else to consider, though: is it a sane thing to marry someone you do not have romantic feelings for? I am by no means saying you should run from this r/s, but given a weird past, you should be on the look-out for a weird future that could potentially hurt your feelings.

I would love to hear from you tomorrow, what his reaction and response will be. As someone pointed out earlier in this thread; if, indeed, he filed for divorce, proving it should require minimal effort from him and give you calm and closure. This is something he should value highly if he cares about you and your relationship.

... .

I re-read the posts in this thread, including my own. Maybe we are putting too much pressure on you?

Do you feel that him lying about his marriage to the other woman is a deal-breaker? If so, you might want to go ahead and investigate it further until you get answers to your questions, so that you can put it behind you. If you don't feel that it's a deal breaker, perhaps you should give up trying to get answers, as it appears to put much strain on you and/or your r/s.

Thank you Lonely Child, he didn't outright lie when I asked him if he was married, he answered in a round about way that was clever enough to fool me. He said he didn't feel married so that is why he answered that way and if he felt married he never would've talked to me in the first place. I am not at all happy about how that happened however I did choose to go forward with him after I found out he was married because I was in love with him. That was my choice not his. He thought I was going to leave him when I found out he was married. I'm a different person today and today I would leave him.

The answers I am looking for is him having a plan for divorce if he is moving out here. I am not at all comfortable having things up in the air. He had talked about doing things from remote before and now I am not at all comfortable with that idea. He's in a big hurry to move out here because he thinks he needs to help me, but frankly I am more interested in him filing for divorce first and I will tell him. That's not going to be a fun conversation at all and that happens tomorrow.

He wasn't being honest. Did he heave a good reason not to be honest to you? Do you feel that he trusts you?

I can see your way of reasoning here: You've changed (for the better) and today you would leave him if he'd done the same as he did back then. But you didn't. So I understand that, even though you accepted it back then, you've changed since then, and this brings the issue back to the table, and so you need 'new closure' since you're viewing the issue from a new and different perspective. From his point of view, maybe it seems unfair that you accepted it so readily at first, but now you're making it out to be an issue again? I'm not saying this to put blame on you, but rather for you to - perhaps - understand him better which would help you communicate and solve the issue at hand.

You seem to have a clear idea of what you need to feel more safe in this situation. I think you should ask him for it. It doesn't sound unreasonable to me, and if he makes it out to be unreasonable tomorrow - you should think back to this thread. Your way of thinking is very sober in this situation from what you're writing here.

[formflier]

So you are right I should not do that so if he brings up again I will have to tell him I decided it was not a good idea to talk about that

Is there any need to tell him anything? 

"I'm not able to talk about that right now... .  "

Talking is close to explaining...    explaining is usually bad for a r/s with a pwBPD traits in it.

JADE... .ends with explain.  It's a big deal.

FF

[unicorn2014]

I respect that. This gives you something else to consider, though: is it a sane thing to marry someone you do not have romantic feelings for? I am by no means saying you should run from this r/s, but given a weird past, you should be on the look-out for a weird future that could potentially hurt your feelings.

Many people married for convenience or duty in prior eras. My fiance is older then me and the first time he married his wife it was because of parental pressure. She actually is the one who initiated the r/s with him when they were teenagers according to him. The lack of romantic feelings for his wife is not what concerns me. It wasn't until relatively  recently in history that people could even marry for romance.

Also I am here because he does have BPD traits, and BPD is on the border between sanity and insanity. I'm also on this board because I'm trying to stay in a r/s with a man who has BPD traits. It goes without saying that he is not entirely sane and he even admits this himself, albeit in a joking manner.

I would love to hear from you tomorrow, what his reaction and response will be. As someone pointed out earlier in this thread; if, indeed, he filed for divorce, proving it should require minimal effort from him and give you calm and closure. This is something he should value highly if he cares about you and your relationship.

He claims he filed but he can not prove it so he claims either the county clerk or his lawyer did not file. I told him he needs to report the county clerk and/or his lawyer as well as get a new lawyer. That is what I will be talking about to him tomorrow. We share calendars so I will mention to him that I see nothing on his calendar about talking to the county clerk or to his lawyer or looking for a new lawyer and that I feel very uncomfortable with him making plans to move without having a plan to file.

He wasn't being honest. Did he heave a good reason not to be honest to you? Do you feel that he trusts you?

He sure did. He knew that if I knew he was married I would walk, despite the fact he was in a dead and dysfunctional marriage. I don't think its an issue of trust. I think its an issue of he knew what my values were going into the r/s and he knew there was no way I would sign off on a r/s with a married man no matter what the circumstances.

I can see your way of reasoning here: You've changed (for the better) and today you would leave him if he'd done the same as he did back then. But you didn't. So I understand that, even though you accepted it back then, you've changed since then, and this brings the issue back to the table, and so you need 'new closure' since you're viewing the issue from a new and different perspective. From his point of view, maybe it seems unfair that you accepted it so readily at first, but now you're making it out to be an issue again? I'm not saying this to put blame on you, but rather for you to - perhaps - understand him better which would help you communicate and solve the issue at hand.

I don't think he thinks its unfair at all that I accepted it at the get go. I think he thinks that I should accept his view of reality, that because he did not feel married to his wife he wasn't married, despite the legal evidence to the contrary. Another poster talked about this in another thread, he's looking at the function of marriage and I'm looking at the form.

You seem to have a clear idea of what you need to feel more safe in this situation. I think you should ask him for it. It doesn't sound unreasonable to me, and if he makes it out to be unreasonable tomorrow - you should think back to this thread. Your way of thinking is very sober in this situation from what you're writing here.

Thank you. I will say that to him, that in order to feel safe in this r/s I need to know that he has a plan for making sure there is a record he filed for divorce before he moves out here. That of course will make him feel defensive and I will not react to that. I know I'm not perfect and I know I'm working on my communication skills with dbt. Frankly I'm totally fed up with this entire situation and I'm trying to be patient and understanding because the pros of staying with him outweigh the cons of leaving him at the moment.

[unicorn2014]

So you are right I should not do that so if he brings up again I will have to tell him I decided it was not a good idea to talk about that

Is there any need to tell him anything? 

"I'm not able to talk about that right now... .  "

Talking is close to explaining...    explaining is usually bad for a r/s with a pwBPD traits in it.

JADE... .ends with explain.  It's a big deal.

Form flier you are right and JADE also works with alcoholics, and I used to be married to one. I developed very bad habits in my first marriage, and I sure as heck do not want to bring them into my second one, whether its to my current fiance or someone else in the future. That is why I am not leaving my fiance at this point, because I know the problem lies within me, and if I leave him and find someone else like him or my first husband I will just repeat the pattern all over again. As far as I am concerned the buck stops here, I need to stop this behavior

(JADE) now.

For me to be able to say "I'm not able to talk about this right now" would be a huge freaking deal. That's also assuming he's going to bring triangulation up. If he doesn't all we're going to talk about is the fact that he is planning to move out here and there is no record of him filing for divorce and I am not comfortable with that at all. I'm frankly getting sick and tired of having these conversations with him. It makes very hard to carry on a normal r/s with him with this lurking in the background. He keeps talking about things wanting to be right between us and missing me but I'm not feeling him. When he calls me sweetie it makes my skin crawl knowing what's going on behind the scenes. When he tells me he loves me it feels manipulative knowing that I'm still waiting for what I asked for back in June: proof that he filed for divorce. When he makes fun of me for asking for proof, well, you can imagine how that makes me feel.

[LonelyChild]

He claims he filed but he can not prove it so he claims either the county clerk or his lawyer did not file. I told him he needs to report the county clerk and/or his lawyer as well as get a new lawyer. That is what I will be talking about to him tomorrow. We share calendars so I will mention to him that I see nothing on his calendar about talking to the county clerk or to his lawyer or looking for a new lawyer and that I feel very uncomfortable with him making plans to move without having a plan to file.

Are you overlooking the simple fact that it can be proven easily by letting you speak to the lawyer, and having the lawyer say "yes, he wanted to do it, but I never filed - mea culpa." Have you brought this up?

I can see how this situation can be difficult to manage if you're walking on eggshells.. I hope you're not. Looking at it from outside, it would seem trivial to prove this to you.

He sure did. He knew that if I knew he was married I would walk, despite the fact he was in a dead and dysfunctional marriage. I don't think its an issue of trust. I think its an issue of he knew what my values were going into the r/s and he knew there was no way I would sign off on a r/s with a married man no matter what the circumstances.

I don't agree that this is a good reason. You might as well say the same thing but replace "married" with "unfaithful." This is a very egotistical reason to be dishonest; that you find it to be good is disconcerting to me. You would agree with me that the foundation of a r/s is trust and honesty, no? No matter - the lies have already been told (although you dislike me calling it an outright lie), and so we go from there. In general terms - forgetting that we're on a BPD forum - that is a big, fat, red flag. You need to keep that in mind, at the very least.

I think he thinks that I should accept his view of reality, that because he did not feel married to his wife he wasn't married, despite the legal evidence to the contrary. Another poster talked about this in another thread, he's looking at the function of marriage and I'm looking at the form.

Again, he's focusing on his point of view. It seems to me like you are torn. Do you feel that you have to abandon your own view of reality if you were to accept his? This would indicate that your views of what's going on differ vastly.

Frankly I'm totally fed up with this entire situation and I'm trying to be patient and understanding because the pros of staying with him outweigh the cons of leaving him at the moment.

I like the way you put this and I hope you stay watchful regarding it. Keep your boundaries in place tomorrow, and have a calm, rational and firm talk with him. Good luck!

[unicorn2014]

He claims he filed but he can not prove it so he claims either the county clerk or his lawyer did not file. I told him he needs to report the county clerk and/or his lawyer as well as get a new lawyer. That is what I will be talking about to him tomorrow. We share calendars so I will mention to him that I see nothing on his calendar about talking to the county clerk or to his lawyer or looking for a new lawyer and that I feel very uncomfortable with him making plans to move without having a plan to file.

Are you overlooking the simple fact that it can be proven easily by letting you speak to the lawyer, and having the lawyer say "yes, he wanted to do it, but I never filed - mea culpa." Have you brought this up?

I can see how this situation can be difficult to manage if you're walking on eggshells.. I hope you're not. Looking at it from outside, it would seem trivial to prove this to you.

Yes I have brought this up and he has berated me for asking for proof. In fact when I told him if I told the county clerk they would ask for his lawyers name he told me he did not want me getting involved, that he would fix this himself. I probably am walking on eggshells as I've endured many BPD rages from him, splitting (although he adamantly denies he does this) verbal abuse (although he tells me his therapist tells him he's not an abusive person). He adamantly maintains that he filed and that either the county clerk or his lawyer messed up and he always has these kinds of problems. Furthermore he tells me that his wife didn't believe him when he first told her he had these kind of problems with institutions but she came to be believe after many years of being with him.

He sure did. He knew that if I knew he was married I would walk, despite the fact he was in a dead and dysfunctional marriage. I don't think its an issue of trust. I think its an issue of he knew what my values were going into the r/s and he knew there was no way I would sign off on a r/s with a married man no matter what the circumstances.

I don't agree that this is a good reason. You might as well say the same thing but replace "married" with "unfaithful." This is a very egotistical reason to be dishonest; that you find it to be good is disconcerting to me. You would agree with me that the foundation of a r/s is trust and honesty, no? No matter - the lies have already been told (although you dislike me calling it an outright lie), and so we go from there. In general terms - forgetting that we're on a BPD forum - that is a big, fat, red flag. You need to keep that in mind, at the very least.

This is going to go from bottom to top as I also wanted to comment on the big, fat, red flag part. I don't dislike you calling it an outright lie. I don't mind at all. I'm telling you that I can not call it an outright lie to his face because he will maintain that he filed and either the county clerk and/or his lawyer didn't file. In fact my father told me not to tell him he lied to me but simply that the facts did not add up. I would absolutely love to tell him he lied to me but he will not allow me to do so. My social worker even said I don't have all the facts. All I can tell you is that my r/s partner does not know I am on this forum trying to get help with my issue and he is acting like everything is just fine and normal.

Let me try rephrasing that in your language, he knew that I knew that if he was unfaithful I would walk. That doesn't feel the same. I was involved in an online love triangle before where the man did claim to love his wife. This is not the same. You could say my current r/s partner was emotionally unfaithful to his wife before he met me, however he says that she emotionally abandoned him long before I met him and furthermore her emotions seemed shallow to him. I should say that he had an emotional affair before he met me, and his wife told me about this, and that he continued this emotional affair into their second marriage. He of course told me all about this, told me this was evidence of him trying to have a real r/s but that his r/s partner probably had BPD too. He was not sexually involved with this woman.

I never said I thought his reason was good as in morally good. I said he was correct that if I knew he was married I would not talk to him because I just gotten out of an online affair where I was the other woman and I swore I would never do that again and he knew that. So he knew that if his situation even looked remotely liked my previous situation I would never speak to him again. One of my former therapist is the one who said that his marriage was dead and that also that I got what most women dreamed of, that he left his wife for me.

I think he thinks that I should accept his view of reality, that because he did not feel married to his wife he wasn't married, despite the legal evidence to the contrary. Another poster talked about this in another thread, he's looking at the function of marriage and I'm looking at the form.

Again, he's focusing on his point of view. It seems to me like you are torn. Do you feel that you have to abandon your own view of reality if you were to accept his? This would indicate that your views of what's going on differ vastly.

I am not torn. I know what my view of reality is. That is probably one of the hardest things in my r/s. He claims his whole life people have forced him to accept a view of reality that is not real, so whenever we start talking about reality it allows him to get up on his high horse. I try to stay far the heck away from conversations about "reality".

Frankly I'm totally fed up with this entire situation and I'm trying to be patient and understanding because the pros of staying with him outweigh the cons of leaving him at the moment.

I like the way you put this and I hope you stay watchful regarding it. Keep your boundaries in place tomorrow, and have a calm, rational and firm talk with him. Good luck!

Thank you, I will do my best. This will not be the first of these conversations. He and I both agreed we are going to have weekly conversations about his divorce until it is resolved.

[Daniell85]

His view of reality is how he justifies acting in unhealthy ways. It's what makes him feel ok about crossing boundaries, lying, and disrespecting other people.

Naturally if you challenge him on this, he is going to get very upset because he hears you telling him that the shared reality of the people around him says he is a liar, a man who is cheating on his wife, and a man who so lacks integrity that he emotionally defrauded an innocent person in order to sneak around her boundaries about involving herself in a relationship with a married man.

He is still doing that, at this point by claiming he filed for divorce, when most people would call him on what appears to be a serious fabrication that is anything but love for you.

What I am actually curious about are what you think and feel about a lifetime ahead of him possibly continue to go on the way he has been with you: lies, fabrication of events, disrespect for your life, intimidating you into fear of trying to get true clarity in the situation.

This is your life, too. It's a life that deserves to be a good one.

[unicorn2014]

Naturally if you challenge him on this, he is going to get very upset because he hears you telling him that the shared reality of the people around him says he is a liar, a man who is cheating on his wife, and a man who so lacks integrity that he emotionally defrauded an innocent person in order to sneak around her boundaries about involving herself in a relationship with a married man.

About his view of reality, he says that his view of reality has been challenged since childhood by the people around him, specifically adults. He says that because he was dyslexic he was told all kinds of things about himself that weren't true and he had to fight against those misperceptions.

I don't have all the facts regarding why his filing is not posted and he has been physically separated from his wife for over 3 years. What he did do is answer my question "Are you married?" in such a way that I would think he wasn't because he didn't think he was.

He is still doing that, at this point by claiming he filed for divorce, when most people would call him on what appears to be a serious fabrication that is anything but love for you.

He claims that he filed and either his lawyer didn't file or the county clerk didn't file.

What I am actually curious about are what you think and feel about a lifetime ahead of him possibly continue to go on the way he has been with you: lies, fabrication of events, disrespect for your life, intimidating you into fear of trying to get true clarity in the situation.

There is no lifetime ahead of us if we don't work through this issue. I am trying to get true clarity in the situation despite the fact it is not easy. Remember the pros of staying outweigh the cons of leaving which is why I'm posting on the staying board. I have to say there has been far less conflict in our r/s as of late. That is a success.

Also, I actually didn't write the subject "Am I involved in a love triangle" because I don't think he ever loved his wife. He married her for the same reasons a gay man marries a straight woman, so people would leave him alone and he could focus on his work. I know divorced men who wear wedding rings for the same reason. He actually wears a wedding ring now because he sees himself as married to me. He did not wear a ring when he was living with his wife.

Remember this is a board for people staying in relationships with people who have borderline personality disorder. If everything was right with my relationship and my partner, I wouldn't be here. I was more looking at this from the point of view of triangulation being that my partner got into a relationship with me so he could get out of a relationship with his wife however he wants to stay in a relationship with me. I think he should have ended his relationship with his wife before he began his relationship with me but it is too late for that now. That also was not my decision to make as I did not know there was a wife at the time we began our relationship. By the time I found out there was one I already thought I was in love with him and so I decided to stay in the relationship. I could have ended the relationship the day I found out he was married from his wife, but I chose not to because I didn't know any better. I didn't think that three years later I would be posting on BPD family.com about how my fiance said he filed for divorce but I could find no record of it.

[Turkish]

My old college English prof used to say something:

"We judge people first by how they look; second, by what they say; third, by what they do."

I would add that the order in which we judge people is inversely proportional to their true character.

[unicorn2014]

My old college English prof used to say something:

"We judge people first by how they look; second, by what they say; third, by what they do."

I would add that the order in which we judge people is inversely proportional to their true character.

Thank you Turkish.

If I judge my partner by how he looks, I find him attractive. If I judge by my partner by what he says, I find him frustrating. However if I judge him by what he does I find him supportive, encouraging, generally reliable, generally honest, helpful, concerned.

I am really trying to detach myself from the fact I can't find proof of his filing. When I was working with my former therapist we talked about choosing things to let go of. I think that someone else on this board said that the bottom line is he can not legally marry me until he legally divorces his wife. When I talk to my partner tomorrow I will tell him I am not comfortable with him moving out here without proof of filing in hand. He criticizes me for needing proof and I really hope I can stick to the FAST guidelines I learned in dbt. I think the thing I have failed to mention in this thread is that I am striving to be fair to him. That is what I am not accusing him of being a liar but stating that he claims he filed and I can find no proof. Honestly I think a lot of problems on this board can be solved with dbt. Someone mentioned that in the boundaries workshop. The hard part will be not apologizing for needing proof.

[formflier]

Thank you Turkish.

If I judge my partner by how he looks, I find him attractive. If I judge by my partner by what he says, I find him frustrating. However if I judge him by what he does I find him supportive, encouraging, generally reliable, generally honest, helpful, concerned.

Unicorn2014,

How do you judge his character based on "what he does" in relation to moving to live by you (been promised for several years... .correct?) and handling the divorce.  In this case I'm considering divorcing is an "action".

FF

[unicorn2014]

Thank you Turkish.

If I judge my partner by how he looks, I find him attractive. If I judge by my partner by what he says, I find him frustrating. However if I judge him by what he does I find him supportive, encouraging, generally reliable, generally honest, helpful, concerned.

Unicorn2014,

How do you judge his character based on "what he does" in relation to moving to live by you (been promised for several years... .correct?) and handling the divorce.  In this case I'm considering divorcing is an "action".

FF

Formflier, yes he has been telling me for over two years that he would be relocating. That is a very good question about judging his character based on his action. I know he sold his house, moved into the basement of his former business office to concentrate on filing back taxes, has been dividing up his belongings with his wife, and meeting with attorneys. He is now taking action to move by making phone calls to realtors, storage units, inquiring about utilities. Today I will inquire as to the results of his actions of calling his lawyer about there being no proof that he filed for divorce.

I wonder how judging his character fits in with the nonjudgmental part of mindfulness in regards to DBT.

[LonelyChild]

... .

Hi unicorn2014,

Have you had the talk with him yet? If so, how do you feel now?

[unicorn2014]

... .

Hi unicorn2014,

Have you had the talk with him yet? If so, how do you feel now?

Hi Lonely Child, no that is scheduled for this afternoon. I don't feel good at the moment. I feel like I'm having two different relationships, the one I'm having outwardly with him and the one I'm having inwardly with him. Thank you so much for checking in. I will definitely do a follow up post after the conversation. In recovery work before we have to do something difficult we often bookend it with program calls. That's how I'm treating this board. There is no program of recovery for people in relationships with people with personality disorders, only for people in relationships with alcoholics or addicts. Thankfully I have this place I can come to for help. I know a lot of people who are adult children of people with borderline personality disorder and they have no idea why I would want to be in a relationship with someone with borderline traits.

[formflier]

I wonder how judging his character fits in with the nonjudgmental part of mindfulness in regards to DBT.

Me too... .I would be interested in YOUR thoughts on this.

Are you comfortable judging his actions? 

Do you believe you should judge his actions?

I believe you should. 

You are considering marrying this fellow (if he ever gets divorced from his wife).  I hope you can have a very clear conversation with YOURSELF about what type of person you want to marry. 

What type of person do you deserve?

My hope is that honest and punctual (or perhaps reliable is better) are on that list somewhere.

Then take a look at your current r/s and ask yourself if the person you are considering "moving forward" with in a r/s has those qualities.

There is nothing wrong with making judgments about people. Especially when you are judging their character and determining if you should move forward to the "next level of a r/s with them.

FF

[unicorn2014]

Formflier, he proposed marriage to me before he met me, the engagement ring came in the mail. We started out the r/s at the level of engagement. He claims he conducted himself towards me as my husband from the beginning.

I will be the first to admit I am not a good judge of character. I met this person online as a result of his work.

I am going to talk to him this afternoon about where his divorce proceedings are at. I'm not expecting any answers. I will try to talk to him about honesty and punctuality and I'm sure he will get angry.