BPD Recovery?

[VIDEO: "What is parental alienation?"]

Just read this in a BPD book and it seems to go against much of what I've read here. Wanted to get other people's thoughts/experiences. In a way I'm both happy and sad to read this. Happy that there is hope. Sad that I happened to be present during the time in her life that she is suffering from BPD, that I had to carry the burden and have these horrible experiences and memories for the rest of my life, while some future partner reaps the benefits of a mostly stable relationship apparently.

"Specifically, there is now a lot of evidence that most people who are hospitalized with BPD will no longer meet criteria for this disorder (in other words, they will experience a remission) after six years. One study by Dr. Mary Zanarini and her colleagues (2003) found that 35 percent of people with BPD who were hospitalized for psychiatric difficulties no longer met criteria for BPD after as little as two years. What’s more, almost half of the former inpatients (49 percent) did not meet criteria for BPD four years later, and 69 percent still did not meet criteria for BPD six years later. In fact, over the course of the six-year period, a full 74 percent of the patients who had started off with BPD no longer met criteria for BPD at some point during the study. Just as important, most people (94 percent) who had stopped meeting criteria for BPD never met criteria for BPD again during the rest of the study. In other words, BPD didn’t go away just to flare back up again. For many people, it went away and stayed away. The other important point to keep in mind is that this study was not a treatment study, and it was not intended to examine the benefits of a particular treatment for BPD. Therefore, even though most patients continued to receive some form of psychological treatment over the course of the study, the kinds of treatment they received varied, and not everyone remained in treatment throughout the entire six years. In fact, some people were not in treatment at all. The reason this is important is that this tells us that even in the absence of a particular state-of-the-art treatment for BPD (like the treatments we will tell you more about in chapters 8 and 9), many people with BPD will eventually get better over time."

[LostGhost]

Just read this in a BPD book and it seems to go against much of what I've read here. Wanted to get other people's thoughts/experiences. In a way I'm both happy and sad to read this. Happy that there is hope. Sad that I happened to be present during the time in her life that she is suffering from BPD, that I had to carry the burden and have these horrible experiences and memories for the rest of my life, while some future partner reaps the benefits of a mostly stable relationship apparently.

"Specifically, there is now a lot of evidence that most people who are hospitalized with BPD will no longer meet criteria for this disorder (in other words, they will experience a remission) after six years. One study by Dr. Mary Zanarini and her colleagues (2003) found that 35 percent of people with BPD who were hospitalized for psychiatric difficulties no longer met criteria for BPD after as little as two years. What’s more, almost half of the former inpatients (49 percent) did not meet criteria for BPD four years later, and 69 percent still did not meet criteria for BPD six years later. In fact, over the course of the six-year period, a full 74 percent of the patients who had started off with BPD no longer met criteria for BPD at some point during the study. Just as important, most people (94 percent) who had stopped meeting criteria for BPD never met criteria for BPD again during the rest of the study. In other words, BPD didn’t go away just to flare back up again. For many people, it went away and stayed away. The other important point to keep in mind is that this study was not a treatment study, and it was not intended to examine the benefits of a particular treatment for BPD. Therefore, even though most patients continued to receive some form of psychological treatment over the course of the study, the kinds of treatment they received varied, and not everyone remained in treatment throughout the entire six years. In fact, some people were not in treatment at all. The reason this is important is that this tells us that even in the absence of a particular state-of-the-art treatment for BPD (like the treatments we will tell you more about in chapters 8 and 9), many people with BPD will eventually get better over time."

[letmeout]

I have heard that too. I took my BPD ex to a psychiatrist years ago and he assured me that most BPD get better with age, but there were a percent who get worse.

So I stayed 20 more years to wait it out. Unfortunately mine was one who got worse, much worse. Nightmare worse. After 35 yrs of marriage I finally gave up and left. I should have went with my gut instinct and got out then.

On the other hand, mine went through phases where if everything was going his way, he could act normal for a while. Unfortunately, normal would end like the flip of a switch, and the nightmare would begin again.

[unicorn2014]

Just read this in a BPD book and it seems to go against much of what I've read here. Wanted to get other people's thoughts/experiences. In a way I'm both happy and sad to read this. Happy that there is hope. Sad that I happened to be present during the time in her life that she is suffering from BPD, that I had to carry the burden and have these horrible experiences and memories for the rest of my life, while some future partner reaps the benefits of a mostly stable relationship apparently.

"Specifically, there is now a lot of evidence that most people who are hospitalized with BPD will no longer meet criteria for this disorder (in other words, they will experience a remission) after six years. One study by Dr. Mary Zanarini and her colleagues (2003) found that 35 percent of people with BPD who were hospitalized for psychiatric difficulties no longer met criteria for BPD after as little as two years. What’s more, almost half of the former inpatients (49 percent) did not meet criteria for BPD four years later, and 69 percent still did not meet criteria for BPD six years later. In fact, over the course of the six-year period, a full 74 percent of the patients who had started off with BPD no longer met criteria for BPD at some point during the study. Just as important, most people (94 percent) who had stopped meeting criteria for BPD never met criteria for BPD again during the rest of the study. In other words, BPD didn’t go away just to flare back up again. For many people, it went away and stayed away. The other important point to keep in mind is that this study was not a treatment study, and it was not intended to examine the benefits of a particular treatment for BPD. Therefore, even though most patients continued to receive some form of psychological treatment over the course of the study, the kinds of treatment they received varied, and not everyone remained in treatment throughout the entire six years. In fact, some people were not in treatment at all. The reason this is important is that this tells us that even in the absence of a particular state-of-the-art treatment for BPD (like the treatments we will tell you more about in chapters 8 and 9), many people with BPD will eventually get better over time."

A person will not be able to hear that they have a problem until they are ready to recover, and that might take years of therapy just to get her to that point, and she may need to hit a bottom first of the negative consequences of her behavior. Then only with work and dedication and recognition that she has a problem and a desire to get better will her health improve. There is nothing you can do to get a person to this point. Its kind of like trying to get a drunk to stop drinking. Until they are ready they will not stop. You can either accept her behavior for what it is or you can decide that you have reached your limit.

[enlighten me]

I think there are a number of factors at work.

If a pwBPD is self aware and willing to work on it then remission is highly likely. I read somewhere that it has a very high success rate in this situation. I cant remember the exact figures but it was higher than a lot of PDs.

If a pwBPD isn't self aware and not willing to work on it then the chances of remission are slim. Im not saying its not possible as everyone learns so a pwBPD can learn that certain behaviours aren't good and change them almost subconsciously.

Then you have some that realise there is a problem but just aren't willing to change.

[patientandclear]

These data get discussed on this site from time to time. The limitations of that study and that pool are the the pwBPD were presenting with self-harming behaviors that caused them to be hospitalized. Cutting, other self harm, suicidal. That is one cluster of BPD behaviors. The people whose destructive behavior focuses mostly on impulsively using other people to self-medicate, with the resulting wreckage in interpersonal r/ships, aren't necessarily in this group.

In the periodic discussions in various subforums on this board about recovery with age etc., many thoughtful and knowledgeable senior members have pointed out that no one is measuring the relationship quality in these people's lives. There does not seem to be a study that effectively assessing this particular cluster of BPD behaviors, whether it improves over time, subsides eventually but only as a product of age making sexual and romantic engagement less accessible, etc.

[brazbeliever]

Hey LostGhost,

I recently read lots of articles, and some said that there is a recovery from BPD. That got me really excited at first. But then, when I read it again, I understood it differently.

I think they don't say a full recovery, but instead they consider a remission of symptoms (as cutting themselves, suicidal threats, associated depression and anxiety, and so on). And yet, they consider remission of symptoms successful if sustained for 2 years, which does not exclude the possibility of having a crisis now and then.

I think that there are gains when a pwBPD accepts his/her condition and seeks treatment. But, in my opinion, the therapy and medication will only help them get more functional (having a job, stop sabotaging themselves, etc).

Sadly, I don`t think they (psychiatrists and researchers) see recovery in the way we nons expect it to be.

Just a personal experience, this week I went to my gfs psychiatric appointment. After a month of verbal abuse, mood swings, "get away"s, and "don`t leave me"s, her psychiatrist called me and said: "Oh! She is doing just fine! Lots of good plans to the future, and I don`t see a sign of depression any more." That`s when it hit me: the recovery for them is really far from what I expected.

[OnceConfused]

Based on your short note here, the study was based on the study of hospitalized BPD, which meant very debilitating cases, like suicide, self cut , psychosis etc... .I am very surprised at the statement that the conditions will get better, even without the state of the art treatments.

It sounds to me like the author concluded that BPD would go away on its own. VERY UNLIKELY, in my opinion?

How about those highly functioning BPD, who exhibits no suicidal thought, nor self cut, but their behaviors cause the nons to go crazy? Those BPDs are not hospitalized at all, so the study excluded that population.

My opinion is don't read too much into that study as gospel that BPD will go away on its own. If that is the truth , then we would not have that many people coming this site to vent.

[OnceConfused]

By the way, if I believe that study and stayed with my xBPDgf, I can be very certain that my life is a mess right now. I would have lost contacts with my children, my business would suffer, and my mental health would be in the dump.

So, by going against the grain of that study, I am a very much happy man now, without BPD, with a wife now who lets me be who I am, whom I have no fear of being stabbed on the back.

[LostGhost]

I agree OnceConfused. I look at that article and then I look at my ex and the relationship we were in... .I just can't imagine a healthy relationship. Only in my dreams can I manifest the kind of relationship I wanted with her. I can't imagine her just snapping out of it.

[babyducks]

Hi LostGhost,

My partner was diagnosed Bipolar 1 and BPD.   After 9 years of therapy, medication and a great deal of brutally honest self work she no longer meets the diagnostic standards for BPD.   She does still meet the criteria for Bipolar as she struggles with bouts of hypomania that is not well regulated by medication.   She was recently released from therapy.   

Because she no longer meets the diagnostic standards for BPD does not mean we have returned to the  idealization phase that was common to the beginning of many of our relationships.   Probably the opposite of that is true.   We have seen each other through some of the worst moments of each others lives, there is no room for idealization left.

This year she has emotionally dsyregulated four times.   I've probably emotionally dsyregulated about the same amount.   

From my experience, and it is a minority experience,  it's not a snapping out.   I would describe it more as a slow and sometimes painful emergence.

For all that there is a great deal of commonality within the disorder there is also individual expression.  Our people with this illness are people, with all the complexities that implies.

'ducks

[Schermarhorn]

I think there are a number of factors at work.

If a pwBPD is self aware and willing to work on it then remission is highly likely. I read somewhere that it has a very high success rate in this situation. I cant remember the exact figures but it was higher than a lot of PDs.

If a pwBPD isn't self aware and not willing to work on it then the chances of remission are slim. Im not saying its not possible as everyone learns so a pwBPD can learn that certain behaviours aren't good and change them almost subconsciously.

Then you have some that realise there is a problem but just aren't willing to change.

What would be considered self aware though?

My ex claimed she was already going to therapy for PTSD and Depression, and she told me many times that she knew she was broken. She would often compare herself to an abused puppy.

Is this her being self aware and her telling the truth? Or could that just have been her ways of getting her hooks into me?

[mimi99]

For years I read articles and held out hope that my daughter would get better as she matured. I think these studies give us nons false hope.

It would seem to me that the people studied were in a position to be studied--that is, ongoing therapy with an expert in BPD. Those who either refuse to get help, take their meds, etc OR those that aren't honest with a therapist would therefore not be included in any studies and our there wreaking havoc in their intimate relationships. My daughter, for example, knows she has BPD but refuses to go to a therapist (multiple excuses blaming everyone else) continues using drugs (a disordered mind has no room for the altering effects of drugs and alcohol) and when she was in therapy she always put forward a false image of how things in her life were--you all know -- the face presented to the outside world.

I have given up the expectation that she will ever be "normal". If she chooses to do the work, maybe she will get the results.

[enlighten me]

I think there are a number of factors at work.

If a pwBPD is self aware and willing to work on it then remission is highly likely. I read somewhere that it has a very high success rate in this situation. I cant remember the exact figures but it was higher than a lot of PDs.

If a pwBPD isn't self aware and not willing to work on it then the chances of remission are slim. Im not saying its not possible as everyone learns so a pwBPD can learn that certain behaviours aren't good and change them almost subconsciously.

Then you have some that realise there is a problem but just aren't willing to change.

What would be considered self aware though?

My ex claimed she was already going to therapy for PTSD and Depression, and she told me many times that she knew she was broken. She would often compare herself to an abused puppy.

Is this her being self aware and her telling the truth? Or could that just have been her ways of getting her hooks into me?

My ex wife has also done therapy. During the divorce I tried to stop her from moving my sons away. She had previously had a mental breakdown and was nearly sectioned. he also claimed she had been diagnosed with ME and I spent three years caring for her whilst doing a full time job and looking after the children. She also claimed she had been diagnosed with bi polar. When she had a psych eval she was diagnosed with situational depression. She has clung onto this and uses this as her excuse. She is aware she has a problem but in denial that it is anything more that depression. She was seeing a therapist but stopped all of a sudden. I believe she was told that she had BPD and didn't want to hear it so stopped going.

By being self aware I would say means they know they have a problem and accept the diagnoses and want to change as they realise their behaviour isn't good. As opposed to knowing there is something wrong but making excuses and blaming everyone and everything for what happens.

[teapay]

I think one has to delve into the details of these kind of publications to understand them.  Like others have mentioned they usually deal with a highly selected pool of subjects who seem to be committed toward recovery (years and years of therapy).  The treatments are often very controled and provided by experts in BPD.  Comorbidities are screened out.  Often subjects are younger and may not yet have the stresses of a regular complicated life or intimate relationships to deal with.  The bar of recovery is set a remission with is actually very low compared to remission of other diseases and is generally based on nonvalidated self reporting.  Clearly, remission can mean no where  normalcy. This is probably not the experience of most non-BPD partners, especially those on these boards, so they probably can give some false hope.  At the same time, for a BPD who actually wants and is committed to recovery, I can see it offering alot of hope if they are willing to do the extensive footwork.  Even for the committed, though, we are taking like 5-10 years of good therapy and only basic personal functionality, not necessarily normalcy. There are some pubs that have found partners of BPD's who remit report somewhat  less stress etc than those whose BPD who don't remit.  This sounds duh, but at least it gives some hope to partners of BPDs who are committed to recovery and may help others partners decide what they want to do with their lives. 

[Svarl1]

Like many of the other responders I can only comment based on a sample of 1.

I must first say, to my knowledge,  my partner has never been diagnosed with a PD.

The earlier years of our cohabitation were filled with violent, blaming, controlling behaviour, gas lighting, hatred yet overwhelming dread of abandonment.

The violence stopped abruptly, when I demonstrated that I would not remain in the relationship if it continued.

The other behaviours have lessened more gradually,  over a period of more than a decade.

They have not yet completely subsided:  my partner is still very quick to mistrust and to take offence.  However she has much better self control than in the past, and screaming rages are now rare.

We can now get along ok most of the time, although I am still somewhat guarded around her and feel unable to be myself (hence the 'undecided' forum).

If there is a disagreement I find that I have to quickly back down and apologise for my unthinking stupidly - then having toned down the emotion I quite often find she is able to take my views into account and later have a more constructive discussion and compromise.

Also, I lately see lightbulbs going on for her: for example she recently discussed the feeling of being controlled by others,  even though she is aware of making sure SHE is the one in charge of as many aspects of her life as possible.

I think we move on from disfunction much better when we become aware of the underhand control that was programmed into us during childhood.

Lastly, I'll say that my partner is intelligent (including high emotional intelligence) and has liberal attitudes (which might have helped to temper the rigid expectations of a controlling person).  I think that without these attributes there would not have been so much chance of positive changes.

[JQ]

I agree OnceConfused. I look at that article and then I look at my ex and the relationship we were in... .I just can't imagine a healthy relationship. Only in my dreams can I manifest the kind of relationship I wanted with her. I can't imagine her just snapping out of it.

Hi L.G.

As you have seen young Jedi there is a difference of what the definition is and what is NOT a recovery or who defines it. NO ONE IS PERFECT! And that includes the doctors ... .Do you know what you call a doctor with a C- GPA? A doctor!  Think about that for a moment ... .the doctor that is going to remove that lump, do triple heart bypass, rebuild your knee AAAAAND declares someone who is BPD cured ALL could have a C- average from that med school that you wouldn't send your dog to.

My exBPDgf has really been in AND out of therapy for nearly 30 years, has been off AND on different meds ... .think about that for a moment. Many & different therapist office for 30 years and STILL she speaks of thinking about suicide ... .STILL she has sex triangles, STILL she has deregulations, STILL paints people black, STILL paints people white, STILL rages, STILL gets depressed ... .NOOW ... .is she better off then she was 30 years ago ... .yes ... .is she cured or to use your words ... ."SNAPPED OUT OF IT" ... .not by ANY stretch of the imagination.  Is her behavioral illness more manageable then it was 30 years ago ... .yes it is.  she has reached out to me to discuss her trauma on a level she has not been able to besides a therapist ... .am I sure of that fact ... .NOT REALLY ... .I take everything she says with a grain of salt.

Remember L.G., YOU didn't Cause it! YOU can't Control it! YOU can't Cure it!  The traumatic event or events that has resulted in them being emotionally stunted 3 yr old toddler happen long before you were ever in the picture.  YOU can't take it personal.  Since I've come to learn about BPD ... .I've learned a lot about myself as a NON ... .then I looked at MY history & saw why I was the way I am as a NON ... .& that my mother & sister are BPD as well in addition to my first real gf who is BPD & is dangerously so.  I've put so many things into perspective when it came to my behavior. My buddy told me I was the nicest guy he knew, that I would give the shirt of my back to someone, etc. etc. etc.  ... .in hindsight I've come to learn that it was my arrow in my Achilles heal.  I have learned it's ok to be nice ... .but I've really come to stand up for myself and learned to say no ... .NO.  NO to verbal abuse, NO to emotional abuse, NO to sleep deprivation, NO to mental abuse ... .I've learned to tell her, my mother, & my sister NO ... .ummm NOO. Just this week my mother tried to convince me to move back to her state & in fact move in with her ... .UMMMM OH HELLLL NO!       

It's a long hard road to travel my friend ... .you really have to look inward & do a complete AND honest evaluation of yourself ... .it's hard ... .no question about it. No one wants to believe that they need to adjust some things, reset some things within themselves. But you know once I did the honest evaluation and made those adjustments, "and yes I work at it everyday", I am much happier with myself ... .more confident with myself.

I WOULD MUCH RATHER LIVE ALONE & BE HAPPY WITH LIFE THEN BE IN A RELATIONSHIP WITH SOMEONE & BE MISERABLE! Always questioning what she's doing? Where is she? Is she out with another guy? Will she rage at me when she gets home from work?  You only get one go around in life ... .ONE. And for no reason, no fault of your own you can be taken off this planet ... .you need to live your life & be happy.

NOW ... .I"m not one to throw cold water on any ... .ANY relationship ... .if you, me or anyone else can make adjustments to manage the relationship ... .you can stand up for yourself and set boundaries & maintain them in your relationship with your BPD ... .realize that you, me or anyone else is signing on to a lifetime relationship with someone who has BPD is going to most likely have a lifetime of therapy in addition to their BPD having a lifetime of therapy to continue to improve ... .it'll be baby steps ... .and both sides will stumble ... .take steps backwards ... .pick yourself up, dust yourself off and move forward again ... .and again ... .and again ... .

Thomas Wayne: And why do we fall, Bruce? So we can learn to pick ourselves up ... .

J

[letmeout]

I WOULD MUCH RATHER LIVE ALONE & BE HAPPY WITH LIFE THEN BE IN A BPD RELATIONSHIP WITH SOMEONE & BE MISERABLE~!

Yup, this is the route I finally took, and I don't regret it for a minute