Validation fail but still half worked

[Depression = 72% of members]

 

My pooping has always been a problem for my wife. There is nothing wrong with my poop, my BPDw just says she hates the smell of poop. So I will use the guest bathroom. Or I will try to go at work. If we are on vacation, I will go to the public restroom. The other night she had a friend over. They were talking in the living room, so I sneaked upstairs to poop. A few minutes into my magazine reading time there is a banging on the door. She is pissed that I am pooping. Her friend heard the yelling and called out that she was going to go home. So I came out and my wife was yelling that now she has to smell my poop when she starts to get ready for bed. And that I know she hates the smell of my poop. And that she has to poop and she now has to smell my poop. So I tried to validate. I said "I know that poop doesn't smell good and that is a problem". She looked at me with a blank look and calmly said ":)on't patronize me. I guess I'm a joke to you.". She then went in the bathroom and gave me the silent treatment the rest of the night. I would have used the guest bathroom, but they were right next to it, and I knew that would have caused a problem.

[CrazyChuck]

 

My pooping has always been a problem for my wife. There is nothing wrong with my poop, my BPDw just says she hates the smell of poop. So I will use the guest bathroom. Or I will try to go at work. If we are on vacation, I will go to the public restroom. The other night she had a friend over. They were talking in the living room, so I sneaked upstairs to poop. A few minutes into my magazine reading time there is a banging on the door. She is pissed that I am pooping. Her friend heard the yelling and called out that she was going to go home. So I came out and my wife was yelling that now she has to smell my poop when she starts to get ready for bed. And that I know she hates the smell of my poop. And that she has to poop and she now has to smell my poop. So I tried to validate. I said "I know that poop doesn't smell good and that is a problem". She looked at me with a blank look and calmly said ":)on't patronize me. I guess I'm a joke to you.". She then went in the bathroom and gave me the silent treatment the rest of the night. I would have used the guest bathroom, but they were right next to it, and I knew that would have caused a problem.

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[formflier]

 

CrazyChuck,

Getting to know your story a bit.

Are there several issues in your life where you wife wants to control what you do and how you do it? 

Do you get "credit" or appreciation for doing your business in other places?

FF

[CrazyChuck]

CrazyChuck,

Getting to know your story a bit.

Are there several issues in your life where you wife wants to control what you do and how you do it?  

Do you get "credit" or appreciation for doing your business in other places?

FF

Not really. This is just one of a million things. We can be having a fantastic night and she can pick anything. That night we were having a fantastic night. She was kissing me and rubbing my shoulders. If I had pulled off the sneak poop. It could have been opening a can of soda from the wrong shelf. Or laughing too loud. Or that I got in bed without turning off the light. Or I turned off the light before she was ready. I no longer focus on what causes it. I focus on the validation and how quickly I can get her past it.

[Notwendy]

I don't think we are supposed to advertise products here, but I swear I have no connection to this one.

Could save a lot of misery.

A product (in the US) called "Poo~Pourri - No. 2 - 4 oz" will take the scent away.

[CrazyChuck]

I don't think we are supposed to advertise products here, but I swear I have no connection to this one.

Could save a lot of misery.

A product (in the US) called "Poo~Pourri - No. 2 - 4 oz" will take the scent away.

Yeah, she would be pissed about both smells. Then add the "you don't give a crap about my feelings or needs. You are so selfish." Pun intended

[formflier]

  I focus on the validation and how quickly I can get her past it.

What if you focused on validation... .and letting her sort it out herself.

This assumes you can work a boundary to protect yourself from the rage/accusation... .or possibly not take it personally.

So... ."you don't give a crap about me or my feelings"

(you) "Honey... .sorry you feel that way... ." 

Move on with life...


FF

[CrazyChuck]

  I focus on the validation and how quickly I can get her past it.

What if you focused on validation... .and letting her sort it out herself.

This assumes you can work a boundary to protect yourself from the rage/accusation... .or possibly not take it personally.

So... ."you don't give a crap about me or my feelings"

(you) "Honey... .sorry you feel that way... ." 

Move on with life...


FF

I tried that early on and it really increased the rage. She said she was tired of everyone blowing her off. That in all her past relationships her biggest issue was being blown off. And that when she was upset they didn't want to listen to her.

But learning about validation has really decreased bad times. Most days I might have to do a couple quick validations. "I really understand that the sodas on the top shelf are the correct sodas to get. I failed to properly feel the soda cans for the coldest can. Would you like a cup of ice." And a cup of ice we are back on the bus to happy town.

[formflier]

 

If it's working for you... .keep on... .keeping on.

My concern is that mixed in with validation is you taking responsibility for your "sins" (possibly validating the invalid).

Validation is about their emotions... .not so much about agreeing with them.

It can be tricky... .I still struggle with it.

FF

[CrazyChuck]

If it's working for you... .keep on... .keeping on.

My concern is that mixed in with validation is you taking responsibility for your "sins" (possibly validating the invalid).

Validation is about their emotions... .not so much about agreeing with them.

It can be tricky... .I still struggle with it.

FF

This is a big area. If I do not take responsibility, she takes it as invalidating. Until I learned about BPD, I would stand me ground. One of the first fights I was so mad. I said "We both poop and it stinks. We share a bathroom. Get over it. Everyone poops.". This caused a week long rant, threats to leave, crying, silent treatment, and ended with threats to cheat. That's when I said I was very sorry and I would use the guest bathroom from now on.

[formflier]

So... .how did learning about BPD change your tactics on that? 

Did she get what she wanted from her tantrum?

FF

[CrazyChuck]

I learned from BPD to stop taking it personal. I can use the validation tools to get back on the happy bus much quicker than trying to argue logic.

My T sometimes asks what happened during the week. After I tell him the 10 things that pissed off my wife he will try to show me how I could have handled each situation better for next time. It kind of makes me mad. If I really screw up bad 10 times a week, then I am really a major screw up. That would be agreeing with my wife. When I asked her what percentage of our problems are my fault. She said 100% of our problems are my fault. What is happening is she is getting her feelings hurt by someone on twitter, or feeling insecure about something she read in Cosmo, or remembering something an old boyfriend did or said. I don't know what causes it. What I do know is while driving home I will get a text that just says "Ugggg". I text back "whats up". A few minutes later I text again. Then after about 5 minutes I get "We are down to the last roll of paper towels". I text back "I'll stop and get some". Which I get the response "Why do you want to hep now? You couldn't give a rats ass about me last night!". Which I text back "What happened last night?". So I call and there is no answer. I get a text "don't bother". I get no more responses from texts or phone calls. When I get home I get the silent treatment. Then I keep getting the dirty looks. Finally I get the answer "You posted a selfie last night on Facebook so whores would like it! Is that what you want? Because I can post a photo that will get lots of men to like it. I can post a photo that would crush your soul. I can get lots of men to send me photos you won't like.". Then I try to validate "I'm not getting any photos from anyone. I'm not posting anything looking for any attention. I'm very sorry, I will delete the selfie. I didn't mean to upset you".

[formflier]

 

CrazyChuck,

Hey... .we are all at different places in our journey with BPD traits in our lives.

Again... .if where you are at... .and your tactics are working for you now... .and you are happy... .with things... .go with it.

I sense a little bit of "chase" in your story. 

If you enjoy it... .and are happy with it... .then leave it alone.

If you are interested in changing the dynamic in your r/s... .stop chasing.

She says "ugg"... .you chase after the answer... .

she mentions paper towels... .you offer up a fix...

She the "pushes" you away with the rats ass comment.

So... .you chase after the "what happened last night"... .she runs away (more push) says "don't bother"

And... .at long last... .she gets to what might... .or might not be the issues... .the selfie.

Realize that you are 100% in control of your side of this dynamic.

"Ugg"

you "Ugg is right... the driver home is killer... .traffic jams today"

"We are down to the last roll of paper towels"

you "OK... .I noticed we only have one apple left as well"

Do you see how in this text exchange you are not "chasing after"... .or "running away".  It's more of a "matching" her communication.

If you go down this road... .she will complain at first... .and then try harder... .but eventually... .the dynamic will change.

We can't predict exactly into what... .but it will change.

Any thoughts on this? 

FF

[CrazyChuck]

CrazyChuck,

Hey... .we are all at different places in our journey with BPD traits in our lives.

Again... .if where you are at... .and your tactics are working for you now... .and you are happy... .with things... .go with it.

I sense a little bit of "chase" in your story. 

If you enjoy it... .and are happy with it... .then leave it alone.

If you are interested in changing the dynamic in your r/s... .stop chasing.

She says "ugg"... .you chase after the answer... .

she mentions paper towels... .you offer up a fix...

She the "pushes" you away with the rats ass comment.

So... .you chase after the "what happened last night"... .she runs away (more push) says "don't bother"

And... .at long last... .she gets to what might... .or might not be the issues... .the selfie.

Realize that you are 100% in control of your side of this dynamic.

"Ugg"

you "Ugg is right... the driver home is killer... .traffic jams today"

"We are down to the last roll of paper towels"

you "OK... .I noticed we only have one apple left as well"

Do you see how in this text exchange you are not "chasing after"... .or "running away".  It's more of a "matching" her communication.

If you go down this road... .she will complain at first... .and then try harder... .but eventually... .the dynamic will change.

We can't predict exactly into what... .but it will change.

Any thoughts on this? 

FF

at the "OK... .I noticed we only have one apple left as well". That would be so funny. I know exactly what she would say "So I'm a joke to you".

I never thought of the push pull dynamic. What I do know is I could post that same selfie 100 times and it would not be a problem. She wants something to blame me for her crappy feelings. So she just picks something. I have been using the validation to try and push her through it quickly. The faster I get her through those crappy feelings the better for me. On the selfie, I found out later she was really upset because she thought I had too many women followers on Instagram. One of the more attractive women followers posted a lot of images of men, on her Instagram, she said looked similar to me. So I made my Instagram private and blocked the woman. I didn't know the woman or have any interaction at all. She never commented or had any interaction with any of my posts that I could find.

[babyducks]

Validation is about their emotions... .not so much about agreeing with them.

Hi Chuck... .


I am glad that you have found a way to defuse the volatile situations you find yourself in and that you are seeing positive changes in how you deal with things.    Every one of us is different and things work differently for each of us in our relationships.   That's why it helps to sort things out here.   I agree with what Formflier said,   validation is more about 'yeah that emotion must really be bothersome', not 'yeah it's all my fault'.   it's tricky to do.   

This is a big area. If I do not take responsibility, she takes it as invalidating. Until I learned about BPD, I would stand me ground. One of the first fights I was so mad. I said "We both poop and it stinks. We share a bathroom. Get over it. Everyone poops.". This caused a week long rant, threats to leave, crying, silent treatment, and ended with threats to cheat. That's when I said I was very sorry and I would use the guest bathroom from now on.

I used to be afraid of the rages.   And tried to do things to avoid them.   and ended up feeling resentful and angry.   trying to avoid the rages ended up hurting me and in the end, she didn't respect me because I continually caved in to her demands.   it was a lose/lose.

validation is a big idea.   people write entire books about it.    here is the link to the workshop

Communication using validation. What it is; how to do it

It says in that link:

we need to disengage a bit from the push/pull validation habits common to pwBPD.

once I stopped reacting to my pwBPD's out of control emotions I started to see less and less of them.   because she wasn't getting anything out of it.   my partner was using me for a dumping ground for all her bad emotions,  just like you said when twitter annoyed her or Cosmos made her feel insecure she dumped on me.   when I stopped trying to fix her emotions and reflected them back to her.   I saw less of them.   took a while.  and I heard much the same as you are.   "You don't care about me." "I'm just a joke to you"   "You are incredibly insensitive and mean to me."  I didn't respond to a lot of that.   I am not going to try and validate the invalid.

I think the trick with validation is to validate the valid.   In your first example upstream, I'm guessing another validation could look like this.   "using a smelly bathroom is kind of icky" and then keep right on moving.   Her response of

She looked at me with a blank look and calmly said ":)on't patronize me. I guess I'm a joke to you.".

kind of indicates the validation target got missed (validation targets are in the link) 

it's hard to find the target because frequently are partners don't communicate all that clearly, especially when upset.  I know I spent a lot of time focused on the topic... .only to miss the issue.

hang in there.

'ducks

[formflier]

There is an "order to the disorder".  Sure it can vary some in different pwBPD traits... .but generally... it's there.

And... .to us nons... .it usually seems like a foreign language.  As you pointed out... .you don't think much about push-pull.   

But, you need to learn the language.

  I know exactly what she would say "So I'm a joke to you".

Babyducks is spot on about not validating the invalid. 

In my r/s... .mind reading is a big deal.  It's gotten better... .but statements like this used to trigger me big time.

I push back "hard" on the mind reading claims she makes. 

In my r/s she would say "So I'm a joke to you... ." and my response would be "Are you asking me to share my opinion of you, I'd be happy to do so if you ask."

If she continues with a rant... .I walk away.

There has been some progress with her sighing... .and giving up the rant or "claims". 

FF

[pallavirajsinghani]

"Am I a joke to you?"

"No, you aren't.  Am I joke to YOU?"

Would this work better?

or

"Am I a joke to you?"

"Is that how you think of yourself?'

No confrontational tones intended in responses.

I agree some techniques to break up circular conversations really work... .but when a BPD sufferer is really triggered, then only boundaries matter... .and your enforcement of them.

(Remember... .boundaries are not the parameters you expect nor place on anyone else... .these are expectations, tolerance levels, parameters that you define for yourself... .)

[believer55]

This may be completely inappropriate - but thank you for a giggle when I read this. Believe me not at your situation - but at the sometimes crazy things we need to talk about and think about!  I got in trouble yesterday for not giving the "right" answer to him asking if I was OK - we had to have a "big talk" about the way I answered (which was "I'm OK hun, just a bit tired" and it went on for over an hour. Sometimes we just need to have a manic giggle I think... . 

[formflier]

 

Yeah... .sometimes I giggle outloud at things... .and my wife gets mad because I am laughing at her... .at that point... .she is right.

Last time I think she correctly figured out I was laughing at her... .was when she made a big deal about wanting to talk about child care plans. 

I was so happy she asked... .said I was ready... .we sat together on the couch... .I thought we were practicing good behavior... .all of that.

Then she asks about my job search... .lots of detailed questions... .

I'm sure I went deer in the headlights... .and then I chuckled a bit... .and said something about being confused.  That I had mentally prepared to talk about childcare.

"Oh... .we'll get to that... .don't you worry" was the answer... .

That might have been about two weeks ago now... .certainly over a week.  We have yet to talk about childcare.

A couple of years ago I would have went ballistic over the bait and switch.  Now I just laugh.

Note:  Probably not the best approach on the "good... .better... .best" scale of things... .but much better than going ballistic.

FF

[ArleighBurke]

Ah, again this could be my life... .I'm banished to do my business in the spare bathroom as well... .

A proposed "validation" suggested was:

     So... ."you don't give a crap about me or my feelings"

     (you) "Honey... .sorry you feel that way... ." 

I've tried this on my BPDw, but it REALLY sets her off. She says it's not HER feeling, it's that I CAUSED her to feel that. So saying "sorry you feel that way" is not admitting the responsbility that "I am suppsoed to feel" for MAKING her feel bad.

So I have started saying "I'm sorry I make you feel that way", or "sorry my behaviour makes you feel that way... ."

It took me a long time to be able to say this, because initially it felt like I was agreeing that i did the wrong thing, or was being insensitive. But I'm not saying that. I am sincerely saying that I am sorry that somethign I did resulted in her feeling bad. (I completely understand that what I did would be 100% acceptable to 999,999 other women, but for her it was the "wrong thing". And I don't WANT her to feel bad, so of course I am sorry that whatever I did caused her to feel bad. Doesn't necessarily mean I'll do it differently next time... .

[CrazyChuck]

Sometimes we just need to have a manic giggle I think... . 

Correct

About two months back she said she wanted to talk. She seemed to be fine. We had not had any issues. So I said ok. She started off "Why do you feel the need to piss me off all the time? You ruin so many of my good days by making me angry. You cause 100% of our fights because you don't give a damn about my feelings.". I laughed and it really pissed her off.

[CrazyChuck]

Ah, again this could be my life... .I'm banished to do my business in the spare bathroom as well... .

A proposed "validation" suggested was:

     So... ."you don't give a crap about me or my feelings"

     (you) "Honey... .sorry you feel that way... ." 

I've tried this on my BPDw, but it REALLY sets her off. She says it's not HER feeling, it's that I CAUSED her to feel that. So saying "sorry you feel that way" is not admitting the responsbility that "I am suppsoed to feel" for MAKING her feel bad.

So I have started saying "I'm sorry I make you feel that way", or "sorry my behaviour makes you feel that way... ."

It took me a long time to be able to say this, because initially it felt like I was agreeing that i did the wrong thing, or was being insensitive. But I'm not saying that. I am sincerely saying that I am sorry that somethign I did resulted in her feeling bad. (I completely understand that what I did would be 100% acceptable to 999,999 other women, but for her it was the "wrong thing". And I don't WANT her to feel bad, so of course I am sorry that whatever I did caused her to feel bad. Doesn't necessarily mean I'll do it differently next time... .

This is exactly what I do. She will get very angry if I do not have the words "I'm sorry I". I have tried to say "I'm sorry you feel that way". And she will say that it was not an acceptable apology. She has gone on for a very long time on how to give an acceptable apology by admitting responsibility. She followed up with a text with a link to a book about how to apologize. 

[formflier]

 

If you are cool with the way things have been going... .go with it.

But... .general advice is that you are responsible for your feelings... .she is responsible for hers.

She is "fixing" her being mad by making you do "her dance" in "her way" when you apologize.  It's your apology to give... .or to keep.

What happens if you let her be mad... .?

FF

[CrazyChuck]

If you are cool with the way things have been going... .go with it.

But... .general advice is that you are responsible for your feelings... .she is responsible for hers.

She is "fixing" her being mad by making you do "her dance" in "her way" when you apologize.  It's your apology to give... .or to keep.

FF

It is very hard. Like this past Saturday. We went to a very nice expensive restaurant. The food was fantastic. After dinner we went for a walk and it was so nice. We ended up in a small park where we sat on a bench and made out like high school kids. The anticipation driving home was electric. We get home and she goes to the bathroom. I turned on the TV to select the music channel. She comes out of the bathroom pissed as hell. "You really turned on the GD TV?" I tried to explain I was putting on music. But she said "never mind, the night is over.", and slammed the bathroom door. And there are so many nights like this.

What happens if you let her be mad... .?

She has no problem telling me she will cheat

[formflier]

She has no problem telling me she will cheat

So... .FOG

Fear Obligation Guilt

What element of FOG is present in your decision making?

How is that working out for you?

FF

[ArleighBurke]

                 CrazyChuck: I was putting on music?

CrazyChuck'sCrazyOther: never mind, the night is over!

This forum is my life being lived by everyone! Both really cool and really sad at the same time... . 

I find there is a fine line between being supportive, and having a boundary. I won't admit to "doing the wrong thing" if I don't think I did wrong - but my wife has a point. *MY ACTIONS* were the trigger for her emotions. Whether we think she shouldn't have reacted, or she's too sensitive, or things are taken to extremes - no matter how we look at it - if I hadn't said what I said, she wouldn't have felt what she felt.

So I genuinly am sorry that whatever I said CAUSED her to feel bad. But i also understand that my words were not the problem. The problem is her history, her strange brain, her sensitivity. I can still be sorry I did *an action* to make her feel bad. But I am not going to feel bad. I dont feel I "shouldn't" have said that.

Just like if I were to give someone a hug, but when I hug them I accidentally squeeze a big bruise on their arms that I didn't know about. They will feel pain. Caused (partly) by me. I will be very sorry that I caused them pain. But I'm not taking responsibility for the bruise. And I certainly don't feel bad about hugging them, I just feel bad that I did *an action* that caused them pain.

To me it's the same. And if me saying "I'm sorry i caused you to feel... ." is received SOO much better than "I'm sorry you feel... ." then it's a win for both of us.

[formflier]

*MY ACTIONS* were the trigger for her emotions. Whether we think she shouldn't have reacted, or she's too sensitive, or things are taken to extremes - no matter how we look at it - if I hadn't said what I said, she wouldn't have felt what she felt.

There is another possibility... .one that I think is more likely.

You wife was triggered or had the bad emotion... .and didn't know what to do with it.

She observes you doing something and then "tags" you with responsibility for whatever is already going on inside her.

FF

[yeeter]

A key piece in all of this, is to get your own clarity on your actions.  If you are being a jerk or poor behavior, then own it and apologize.

But, if you are doing very reasonable things, and these set her off.  Its 'her' problem not yours.  And yes it might be unreasonable, but the emotions are very real to her.  So whether based on actual valid reasons or not, validation helps address the emotions.

Yes she will want you to own the responsibility for her emotions (has learned her entire life that by doing so makes her feel better about herself - its someone elses fault she feels this way and thus nothing wrong with her).  But dont go there.  She has to learn how to manage and deal with her own emotions (else its just you walking on eggshells the rest of your life).

So in practice it means being ok if she gets upset at how you validate.  She can be upset.  Ultimately, she can cheat and divorce you (she can do this anyway).  I guess that is the choice then that you make - is it better to live on eggshells and be under someone elses control your whole life, or stand up for your own self and let the rest fall where it may. 

Many times, after she escalates and burns through an 'extinction burst', she will reset going forward and things will get better (because she no longer gets what she wants from the engagement).  But it gets worse first because she will test to the limit.

Everybody needs to poop (Im pretty sure of this).  Living in a house where I am not allowed to use a toilet isnt something I would sign up for.  Yes its hard for her accepting this (because it really does cause emotional angst for her) - but nothing I can do about that other than acknowledge and support her in learning to deal with it (where support does not = me jumping through hoops). 

Its important, validation is not accepting responsibility or admitting guilt.  In fact, I quit apologizing for pretty much anything - Im human, not apologizing for it.  It has helped.

(sorry for the ramble).

[formflier]

yeeter makes a critical point.  One that should be focused on!

(where support does not = me jumping through hoops). 

This is especially true for "fixers" or guys like me that have a "love language" of acts of service.  (great book by the way)

I like to show my wife... .and others... .that I love them by doing things for them.  My wife bringing me a glass of water or some other gesture... .really makes me smile.

So... I get set up for the "I would feel this way if you would (or wouldn't) do xyz"  I used to chase that around trying to "fix" her.

Now I chuckle at myself as I see her trying to be Lucy with the football... .trying to get Charlie Brown to kick it... .just one more time.  Except I haven't kicked at it in a long time.

To be honest... .I miss kicking the ball... .but I know it wasn't healthy.

FF

[CrazyChuck]

(sorry for the ramble).

The "ramble" is very much appreciated. That is why I am here. To get help and to vent.


Several times my T has asked "what started the fight". And I almost always say "anything started the fight". When BPDw is ready to fight she will pick something. And I do not take it personal, but I really wanted to have a great ending to the night. And now I'm playing pool by myself in the game room. It just sucks.

I understand using "I'm sorry I" is just a band-aid. But it resolves so much quicker than "I'm sorry you".  But just like most of us, I'm also a "fixer". I was taught by my BPD mother that if she screamed jump I would jump. If it was not high enough, I would take my spanking and beg for forgiveness.

We had a stand off last night. She wanted me to get her a glass of water from the kitchen. It was just as easy for her to do it. After about 10 minutes I gave in.

[CrazyChuck]

This forum is my life being lived by everyone! Both really cool and really sad at the same time... . 

It is very strange how the actions and words are so much the same on so many posts. Sometimes it is painful when I see someone post something I have been through, and they are just figuring it out.