Empathy: are their limits?

[Beware of Junk Psychology...]

Not sure whether the title of this post is appropriate, but I am seeking some feedback on some thoughts about my 3yr r/s with my exuBPDgf, specifically about empathy, and more specifically about what to say/how to express it when you are faced with something that is clearly painful/scary for your partner but something that makes zero sense to you and which by all accounts is irrational/crazy/disordered. (i.e. their "feelings = facts".

She, like many pwBPD described here, played the victim often, and complained to me about my lack of empathy while rarely showing any herself (though to be fair I never really explicitly asked for it).

I want to be a supportive partner, and I don't want to risk invalidating my SO.  How does one compartmentalize this and give one's partner what they need without necessarily agreeing with them (co-dependent?) and while maintaining your own personal boundary with their worldview?  Is there a language, style of delivery that would serve the needs of both partners?

I really feel like this is so critical to a stable, loving, mutually supportive r/s, and am a bit panicky at the thought of falling short in this area.  I am 7mo NC and have been struggling with this lately as I slowly reenter the dating pool.

Thanks in advance.

[search4peace]

Not sure whether the title of this post is appropriate, but I am seeking some feedback on some thoughts about my 3yr r/s with my exuBPDgf, specifically about empathy, and more specifically about what to say/how to express it when you are faced with something that is clearly painful/scary for your partner but something that makes zero sense to you and which by all accounts is irrational/crazy/disordered. (i.e. their "feelings = facts".

She, like many pwBPD described here, played the victim often, and complained to me about my lack of empathy while rarely showing any herself (though to be fair I never really explicitly asked for it).

I want to be a supportive partner, and I don't want to risk invalidating my SO.  How does one compartmentalize this and give one's partner what they need without necessarily agreeing with them (co-dependent?) and while maintaining your own personal boundary with their worldview?  Is there a language, style of delivery that would serve the needs of both partners?

I really feel like this is so critical to a stable, loving, mutually supportive r/s, and am a bit panicky at the thought of falling short in this area.  I am 7mo NC and have been struggling with this lately as I slowly reenter the dating pool.

Thanks in advance.

[eeks]

Hi search4peace,

Welcome to the Personal Inventory board!   

Is there a language, style of delivery that would serve the needs of both partners?

Maybe you've seen references on this site to SET and DEARMAN - acronyms to help you remember a communication structure - both of these have common elements with the approach I was previously familiar with, Nonviolent Communication.

https://bpdfamily.com/message_board/index.php?topic=203956.0

The main book is "Nonviolent Communication" by Marshall Rosenberg.  There are other books too, by him and other authors. 

When I was first introduced to NVC, it was presented to me as a communication technique.  From what I've learned since, that's not really what NVC is.  It's more of a shift in philosophy, an entirely different way of thinking about yourself and others.  Once you get that, "getting the words right" doesn't matter so much.  There are criticisms of NVC, I don't think it's a perfect method, and I do struggle to understand and adopt aspects of the philosophy, but I find it a useful approach to learn.

One of the points made in the book is that you have to be able to give yourself empathy, your "well has to be full" so to speak, before you can give it to someone else.  And there are ways to practice on your own, for instance if you notice that you have a thought "I was such an idiot to do that," you could ask yourself what your feelings were at the time, and what needs you were trying to meet with your actions (even if that need was not met, and even if you have regret after the fact).  However, in general receiving empathy from another person is the best way to learn self-empathy.

I did an NVC workshop a few years ago and one of the questions I asked the teacher is, I'm the one who's in emotional distress, and I come here and find out that I'm the one who has to do all the work to learn this method?  And she said that that's why they have empathy groups, the implication being that sometimes when you're in a conflict with someone, neither person is able at that time to give empathy to the other, and you need to receive it from someone who isn't involved in the conflict.  Two people are on either side of a chasm, both shouting "Help!" at one another.

So, back to your question, how do you validate without agreeing?  My best understanding of how to do this is by acknowledging the person's feelings and needs.  NVC defines needs in a particular way.  https://www.cnvc.org/Training/needs-inventory 

Everybody has the right to get their needs on this list met, but they don't have a right to specific behaviour from others, and I think that goes to your question about boundaries. 

For instance, if someone is complaining about someone else who they say was "rude" to them, you might respond "you are feeling angry because your need for respect was not met?"  In NVC they always write it with a question mark, because it's always just a guess, but for example, Elaine Aron's "attunement" method phrases it as a statement, allowing that the other person might clarify.  Note that you don't say "you are feeling angry because she didn't respect you", that would be more like agreeing. 

Cultivating self-empathy, whether by receiving it from others or through practicing awareness of your own feelings and needs, is probably a good place to start because that will naturally flow out into your approach towards others.  That said, you could also practice identifying others' feelings and needs, which it sounds like you already do some of. 

Interestingly enough, my uBPD former friend had learned about and practiced NVC.  I won't go into the details of what happened, I'll just say that I empathized with her but there were a few incidents where I felt I had to censor my opinions, and eventually ended up resenting it, so if you're going to practice NVC, I think you are correct to realize that it's important to find a way to compassionately express disagreement, keep boundaries and serve your own needs as well as theirs.

One way in which my ex was different from my former friend is that I would try to empathize with him, and similar responses from me that would help other people in my life feel heard, didn't seem to work the same way on him, he would just repeat his original complaint about what the person had done that hurt him.  It seemed that he wanted me to agree, but I wasn't willing to do that. 

I've read a number of posts on this site where a member is saying that their pwBPD wants empathy and feels they're not getting it.  pwBPD are a "unique" situation, to say the least, I kind of wonder in thinking about it now if "feelings=facts" means that if you don't agree with them, it feels to them like you're not empathizing. 

So, I think it's great that you want to improve your validation skills, but I brought up these personal examples because I don't think your experiences with a pwBPD are indicative of your ability to validate and empathize, as in my opinion empathizing with a pwBPD is "advanced" skill level. 

[unicorn2014]

Not sure whether the title of this post is appropriate, but I am seeking some feedback on some thoughts about my 3yr r/s with my exuBPDgf, specifically about empathy, and more specifically about what to say/how to express it when you are faced with something that is clearly painful/scary for your partner but something that makes zero sense to you and which by all accounts is irrational/crazy/disordered. (i.e. their "feelings = facts".

She, like many pwBPD described here, played the victim often, and complained to me about my lack of empathy while rarely showing any herself (though to be fair I never really explicitly asked for it).

I want to be a supportive partner, and I don't want to risk invalidating my SO.  How does one compartmentalize this and give one's partner what they need without necessarily agreeing with them (co-dependent?) and while maintaining your own personal boundary with their worldview?  Is there a language, style of delivery that would serve the needs of both partners?

I really feel like this is so critical to a stable, loving, mutually supportive r/s, and am a bit panicky at the thought of falling short in this area.  I am 7mo NC and have been struggling with this lately as I slowly reenter the dating pool.

Thanks in advance.

I probably don't have the correct answer because I have gotten in trouble with clergy online for voluntarily withholding empathy. I felt  that empathy is a choice and that is my right to choose who I want to be empathetic to. So I would say yes, there are definitely limits to empathy, I know I've felt them in the past. I know for me that I've felt a lack of empathy when "high class" people complained about their problems. I've thought, what is wrong with this person, they have a husband with a job, a house, a pet, an education, children, what do they have to complain about, however that is a different problem then what you are addressing. I would say it is ok to have a limit to your empathy, however that might not gel with all belief systems.

[search4peace]

Thank you for your feedback and insight... .very much appreciated.

For me, in the heat of my r/s, I did actually feel that I had two choices: either agree with her 100% and be knighted, or listen while remaining politely silent which was often seen as being non-empathetic or worse, judgmental.  Polite, gentle disagreement in any form, which would have felt natural and healthy, was unthinkable.  This was walking on eggshells at its most intense.  I so wanted to say something, offer anything to avoid the latter, but it was a verbal minefield that I felt I could never quite navigate confidently.  I felt impotent in what seemed a no-win scenario, and that was the absolute worst part. 

I can understand how this might be common when one is involved deeply with a pwBPD, but I dread it in any future r/s and want to feel secure in my ability to offer comfort, validation, and love without betraying myself in the process.  Perhaps part of the answer lies in finding a healthy person who understands this, and to trust that person to empathize with this struggle.

That is my dream.

[eeks]

I can understand how this might be common when one is involved deeply with a pwBPD, but I dread it in any future r/s and want to feel secure in my ability to offer comfort, validation, and love without betraying myself in the process.  Perhaps part of the answer lies in finding a healthy person who understands this, and to trust that person to empathize with this struggle.

If I understand correctly, your experience with a pwBPD has left you feeling uncertain of your ability to offer comfort, validation, and love?  As I said, I don't think it makes sense to judge your abilities on those things based on your experience with a pwBPD.  Whether it's due to genetics, family of origin issues or both, the pwBPD has deep rooted patterns with regards to "how they 'do' intimacy with others".  However, I can see how being told by a partner that you lack empathy could leave you feeling unsure.

Methods like Nonviolent Communication give examples of how you can use it in situations even with irrational or hostile people... .but in terms of an intimate relationship... .I agree with you, and I'd say it might be useful as you date and consider starting new relationships, to bring up the subject in an appropriate way, and notice how the woman responds.

Imagine if you met someone new, and when the time was right, told her that you were in a relationship with a woman who had BPD, who complained that you lacked empathy.  And that you think empathy and validation are important skills for a healthy, satisfying relationship, and you're worried that you'll fall short.

And her facial expression softened and she responded that she was pleased that you recognize how important empathy and validation are in relationships, and glad that you care enough about her to want that for your relationship with her?  And it might invite her to talk about her own experience with emotional awareness in relationships, and what are her values around how she communicates with her partner?

[valet]

Empathy is built upon understanding. It's us being able to put ourselves in another person's shoes, or to see where they're coming from.

No one is 'naturally' empathetic. It is a learned skill that some people have more experience with. It definitely helps communication with others if we are able to understand them and validate the valid while not invalidating ourselves or validating things that we do not think are valid. Being empathetic is not agreeing, it is simply acknowledging that people have different perspectives than us.

So yes, I'd say that there are limits (and they are very subjective), but with time and practice (lots of it) those skills become more second nature and actually feel genuine.

And granted, and maybe this might help keep things in perspective, especially when trying to date again: sometimes we are just not that compatible with others and have to try a lot harder. Generally, this tells us things about what we want in a relationship. Or maybe that this one particular person isn't the right person for us. Communication ain't that easy, but it should never be super difficult with a potential partner, at least in my experience. So, don't be so hard on yourself! Dating is fun! Enjoy the time that you spend with people and try to live your values in the best way possible.

[waverider]

Empathy is about showing genuine interest and openness to understanding someone elses view, and accepting their right to it.

However it is not the same as agreeing their view is the same as yours. It is also better to avoid saying you understand, as that is a final statement of conclusion, and may be wrong, seen as presumptuous even, especially if they are trying to tell you that you dont understand.

As previously raised, stating your interpretation with a question, you are putting your impression forward for confirmation/clarification. This is validating, as you are putting a value on their opinion of your impression.

if you can develop this pattern of validating you wont feel like you are constantly being pressured to agree with things you dont, and your tolerance will be higher.

At the end of the day it is up to you to decide how much is enough, but having a thorough understanding of it allows you to make a wisemind decision of quantity vs consequence. That is you can choose not to.

Once you get good at it the demand reduces.

You can always focus more on NOT invalidating, this is easier