Being confronted w/ effects the lack boundaries has had on my mental state

[Sluggo]

We had another appointment yesterday with our Marriage Couselor.  This was one of the few sessions over the last 5 months that I could dictate the topic.  Before it has been focusing on what I need to change- which I have embraced... .mainly the enmeshed relationships that I have with my family of origin.  I have made some good progress in that. 

Yesterday's appointment was to watch a video of conversation my dppdw and I had a few days before.  It was her stating her complaints about me for that day.  the video was about 24 minutes long which I spoke a total of less than 45 seconds.  My w spent the rest of the time going from one issue to the other stating what I did wrong.  Our MC counted 16 issues brought up just in the first 15minutes.  The MC stopped the video multiple times stating where wife was condescending, shaming, aggressive, jumping topics, and just be overwhelming.  I was grateful to hear her tell her that.  I knew there were a few times she had done the above- but the MC picked out many more times than I would have because I have become so accustomed to it.  It was embarrassing to see that I allow my w to talk like that to me.  The MC said you are putting him down so much that he will feel like a loser who can't do even a simple task.  WOW... .I have been so depressed over the years feeling like a loser especially after these arguments and telling my wife how much of a loser I was so she would stop the verbal late night barrages.   It seemed the only way to stop her tirades was to agree with her which would make me feel awful. 

I am amazed at how far I let her trample me without setting any boundaries.  How these violations started gradually over the 17 years of marriage and I would not say anything, or let it slide to keep the peace ( I have a big fear of anger in others) , or think don't be so thin skinned- be a man, she is just in a bad mood, it is her pregnancy, etc.  But over time this has been a death of a thousand cuts.  It was never just one thing but just one cut over another over another.  Or maybe like a frog in the pot of water that doesn't realize it is getting hotter and hotter as it is so gradual. 

Wife asked me last night (therapy was earlier that day)- she was sorry (not with much realization that what she was doing was wrong though) and then quickly said that she is not sure if she wants to keep going to therapy as all that happens is that she is put down.  She wasn't sure where are marriage was going.  This was the first real appointment that it wasn't 'he said / she said' but it was on video there for her to see and be challenged on.  Then wife said, what is going to happen to us.  Our you going to continue be so cold to me, are we ever going to talk like friends, do you want to be married to me.  I would much rather you tell me that you hate me rather than be cold to me.  These last 3 weeks (when she has been raging) she said 'don't talk to me like were best friends' 10-15 times, I don't need your prayers, I don't want you know anything about my medical condition (she had a scope last week we she didn't allow me to go or told me what it was for), and numerous put downs of me with our kids around and not with our kids around.  I didn't know what to say... .but what I did say last nigh was ' All I have wanted from Marriage counseling was to get you to talk respectfully to me.  However what I have learned is that I cannot control what you say but I can take myself out of the situation (leave room, leave house, stay in hotel, etc).  This is what I am hoping that comes from this MC'. 

In the end, I am continually amazed at how I have let this go so far.  How I allow my wife to talk to me the way she does and have done little to stop it up to this point'.  How these things said to me has slowly chipped at myself esteem where it is hard for me to believe that even God could love me.  How I allow my wifes opinion of me in her rage shape my feeling of myself. 

Have any others gotten so far down the road of this type of 'abuse' without really realizing the total impact of what has happened?  Is it possible to get self respect back?  Can it be achieved in a relationship that has had this unhealthy pattern so galvanized into its DNA?

[Lucky Jim]

Hey All4, You're right: it starts with loving and caring for yourself again.  Self-respect is not selfish, my friend.  Start from that premise and you will find many positive benefits, such as loving yourself enough that you will not tolerate abuse or mistreatment; Caring enough about yourself to set up and enforce strong boundaries; and Respecting yourself enough to say that you deserve better.  You get the idea.  You have to make yourself the priority, in my view; otherwise, you are likely to drown in the BPD tidal wave.  (I did, and it's not fun, believe me).

LuckyJim

[Sluggo]

Thank you Luck Jim!

[formflier]

Thank you Luck Jim!

You keep going to MC... .do not discuss quitting MC... .outside of MC. 

She can go... or she can quit.  You can't force her... .

Try not to be confrontational when you say this.

"R/s work is hard.  I appreciate your hard work for the sake of our marriage.  My efforts will be to continue to work on us as a team."  Maybe touch her on the shoulder or something else to "connect" but not a full on hug or anything.

Then... .try to move along to something else.

"I'm going to go put some burgers on the grill.  Do you want a cheese on your burger or not... ."  (or something along those lines)

If she presses to talk about MC or stopping MC... .

"I'm not able to continue this conversation right now... I'll check back in with you in 30 minutes... "  (leave the room calmly)

You can do this... .!   

FF

[formflier]

 

She may try to bait you with quitting.  Don't discuss it or fight about it... or react.

When it is time to go to MC... just go.  Even if she refuses to get in the car.

I had a couple "refusals"... .luckily I went anyway.  Guess who showed up... .yep.

She threatened and all kinds of stuff... .but she never skipped.

We did have some legitimate reschedules... .but that is different than threatening to quit... .or talking in an ominous way about the future of the r/s.

So... .to go with this... .don't engage in  "I don't know what is going to happen to the marriage discussions... "

Try to validate the concern... .express confidence... exit the conversation.

Here is some homework for you.  Study the SET format in the lessons.  Figure out a response... .using SET... .to ominous talk about the r/s.  That is a good thing to memorize... .so that when pressure is on... you can say it evenly... .

FF

[Grey Kitty]

You know... .I was never subjected to quite as much as you were. I also didn't get quite as far into believing what I was told as you did. And despite the verbal abuse ending three years ago (and for other reasons, the relationship ending a year ago), I'm still finding that I've got weird feelings left over in my head from it--ways I beat myself up, or shut myself down like that.

It is amazing how much impact it has on you, and how long it takes to really get free of it.

But as for your stuff--I'm going to call a spade a spade. What the MC pointed out in that video was verbal abuse.

Then wife said, what is going to happen to us.  Our you going to continue be so cold to me, are we ever going to talk like friends, do you want to be married to me.  I would much rather you tell me that you hate me rather than be cold to me.  These last 3 weeks (when she has been raging) she said 'don't talk to me like were best friends' 10-15 times, I don't need your prayers, I don't want you know anything about my medical condition (she had a scope last week we she didn't allow me to go or told me what it was for), and numerous put downs of me with our kids around and not with our kids around. 

So the night after, when she was talking to you about it, she continued with the verbal abuse. Not really a big surprise.

I didn't know what to say... .but what I did say last nigh was ' All I have wanted from Marriage counseling was to get you to talk respectfully to me.  However what I have learned is that I cannot control what you say but I can take myself out of the situation (leave room, leave house, stay in hotel, etc).  This is what I am hoping that comes from this MC'. 

You do have your answer there. All you can do is choose not to be spoken to that way.

It is soo hard.

And it really changes everything for you. It will take time to retrain yourself, but you will get there.

[OnceConfused]

Can it be achieved in a relationship that has had this unhealthy pattern so galvanized into its DNA?

How can you change something that is supposedly baked into your DNA ? No , but you can try.

"is it possible to get self-respect back?"

No one can give you your SELF RESPECT. Only you can do that to yourself. Now the question how can I do it?

To change a habit or a characters takes time and lots of practice.

First of all, you have to define what your life purpose? why are you on this earth? -- This will drive all your subsequent decisions and actions. For example, my life purpose is to live life fully and mindfully, enjoy every moments of it, live my life as simple as possible, grow every day in spirituality, in learning new things.

secondly, then how are you going to achieve those? For me, it is to learn new things (like dancing, new languages, travel to places that i have never been). Learn to let it be and let it go. Let go of things that are the blocks to my purposes like letting go of people who bring negativity into my life. Learn to "HAVE A MIND THAT IS OPEN TO EVERYTHING , BUT ATTACHES TO NOTHING.". If you want a happy life, don't hang around negative people (If you want to fly high like an eagle, don't hang around with turkeys".

Happiness is not an end thing, it is a byproduct of what you do every day. So be careful with what you do everyday.

I don't mean to have to seek divorce, but you have to accept that as a potential reality. Once you accept that (like death), then you have nothing to fear anymore. You won't look to your wife or anyone for approvals or affirmation because you are approaching self-realization. You won't have to take any abuses like a doormat, but you stand up and say "if you think I am not worthy of you then why we are together, should you be else where?", a simple and yet powerful statement. Now, you won;t stay around and let them beat you up any more. You won't fight back like WWIII but you won't be abused either.  Think of Ghandi with his passive approach that gained independence to India from the British empire.

[Lucky Jim]

I don't mean to have to seek divorce, but you have to accept that as a potential reality. Once you accept that (like death), then you have nothing to fear anymore. You won't look to your wife or anyone for approvals or affirmation because you are approaching self-realization. You won't have to take any abuses like a doormat, but you stand up and say "if you think I am not worthy of you then why we are together, should you be else where?", a simple and yet powerful statement. Now, you won;t stay around and let them beat you up any more. You won't fight back like WWIII but you won't be abused either.  Think of Ghandi with his passive approach that gained independence to India from the British empire.

Well said, OnceConfused.  My days as a doormat are over!  LuckyJim

[Sluggo]

Hey All4, You're right: it starts with loving and caring for yourself again.  Self-respect is not selfish, my friend.  Start from that premise and you will find many positive benefits, such as loving yourself enough that you will not tolerate abuse or mistreatment; Caring enough about yourself to set up and enforce strong boundaries; and Respecting yourself enough to say that you deserve better.  You get the idea.  You have to make yourself the priority, in my view; otherwise, you are likely to drown in the BPD tidal wave.  (I did, and it's not fun, believe me).

LuckyJim

Thank you Lucky Jim.  The part that caught my attention is caring enough about yourself to set up and enforce strong boundaries and also realizing that you have been through it before. 

Here is some homework for you.  Study the SET format in the lessons.  Figure out a response... .using SET... .to ominous talk about the r/s.  That is a good thing to memorize... .so that when pressure is on... you can say it evenly... .

FF I will look at the set model and go over that to get it down.  Yes I see what you are saying not to let her saying that she will not go as an opportunity to engage with her which will end up being a losing battle.  Just go and if she is there she will be there.

You know... .I was never subjected to quite as much as you were. I also didn't get quite as far into believing what I was told as you did. And despite the verbal abuse ending three years ago (and for other reasons, the relationship ending a year ago), I'm still finding that I've got weird feelings left over in my head from it--ways I beat myself up, or shut myself down like that.

It is amazing how much impact it has on you, and how long it takes to really get free of it.

But as for your stuff--I'm going to call a spade a spade. What the MC pointed out in that video was verbal abuse.

I know in moments of clarity I will ask myself why do I let things go so far and surprised I do.  I can see abuse when done to other people but somehow seem 'gloss' over it when I experience it.   

Sorry to hear that your relationship did rupture.  I don't know much of your story over the last couple of years... .was it a just a steady progress of getting stronger which caused the distance.  Was it your own pursuit of healthiness that began the dismantling of the relationship?  And is that the normal cycle of relationships when the one spouse gets healthier that is causes so much disruption that it is just too hard to put together?

You do have your answer there. All you can do is choose not to be spoken to that way.

It is soo hard.

And it really changes everything for you. It will take time to retrain yourself, but you will get there. 

Yes I do agree it is hard.  The hard part is that when the relationship gets to a point of being manageable and then I stop doing the work I need to do to keep the boundaries.  It is only when the pain is so great that I start reaching out for answers, help, and start working.  I allow myself to get comfortable again as my wife will start to make some positive changes and then after a few weeks or months those changes go back to where it was (sometimes worse).  then it takes a major event to realize I have been back to this 'bad state' for quite a while without even knowing it.  Kinda of like being in a home where there was a strong smelling dinner made.  You don't notice the smell when you are there for a while, it is only when you go outside and come back in that you do notice the stench. 

No one can give you your SELF RESPECT. Only you can do that to yourself. Now the question how can I do it?

To change a habit or a characters takes time and lots of practice.

First of all, you have to define what your life purpose? why are you on this earth? -- This will drive all your subsequent decisions and actions. For example, my life purpose is to live life fully and mindfully, enjoy every moments of it, live my life as simple as possible, grow every day in spirituality, in learning new things.

secondly, then how are you going to achieve those? For me, it is to learn new things (like dancing, new languages, travel to places that i have never been). Learn to let it be and let it go. Let go of things that are the blocks to my purposes like letting go of people who bring negativity into my life. Learn to "HAVE A MIND THAT IS OPEN TO EVERYTHING , BUT ATTACHES TO NOTHING.". If you want a happy life, don't hang around negative people (If you want to fly high like an eagle, don't hang around with turkeys".

Happiness is not an end thing, it is a byproduct of what you do every day. So be careful with what you do everyday.

.

yes Once Confused it does take practice and then the patience not to get down when there are missteps. 

I don't mean to have to seek divorce, but you have to accept that as a potential reality. Once you accept that (like death), then you have nothing to fear anymore. You won't look to your wife or anyone for approvals or affirmation because you are approaching self-realization. You won't have to take any abuses like a doormat, but you stand up and say "if you think I am not worthy of you then why we are together, should you be else where?", a simple and yet powerful statement. Now, you won;t stay around and let them beat you up any more. You won't fight back like WWIII but you won't be abused either.  Think of Ghandi with his passive approach that gained independence to India from the British empire

I think that is true.  I have been slowly accepting the fact that divorce could be in the future.  And knowing that without being panic stricken is a source of strength.  As my wife used to say divorce and I would have a total meltdown.  Over the last year I have not had that meltdown 'at least not around her' and it seems it gives me a position of strength and see there are other options if I choose which doesn't mean that I have to stay with my wife if the verbal stuff continues. 

thank you all for your help and wisdom and listening ear to these things that are happening in my life.  I know you probably have heard it many times before... .but just having the opportunity to chat with you all in itself is empowering. 



 

[Grey Kitty]

The hard part is that when the relationship gets to a point of being manageable and then I stop doing the work I need to do to keep the boundaries.  It is only when the pain is so great that I start reaching out for answers, help, and start working.  I allow myself to get comfortable again as my wife will start to make some positive changes and then after a few weeks or months those changes go back to where it was (sometimes worse).  then it takes a major event to realize I have been back to this 'bad state' for quite a while without even knowing it.  Kinda of like being in a home where there was a strong smelling dinner made.  You don't notice the smell when you are there for a while, it is only when you go outside and come back in that you do notice the stench.

Believe me, I understand that one. Here's what helped me.

First, doing anything I can to take good care of myself. I love the exercise of walking. That's one thing I've done for myself pretty consistently. Start with the physical part--eat well, get exercise, get sleep. (And enforce boundaries with your wife if she tries to prevent you from doing those things)

I'm also an extrovert--while I may be shy or socially awkward, I find it energizes me to talk to people or be with people. (Toxic/abusive people excepted, of course!)

So that makes the other thing that helps really appealing to me. Spend time talking to friends and family members. Whomever is healthy and supportive. And supportive may mean able to listen to how your day is going and the crazy crap your wife does. Or supportive may mean talking about fishing or football or work or whatever... .just a normal pleasant conversation... .without that nagging fear that you are going to be trapped, abused, yelled at, criticized, or say the wrong thing and regret it for a week. The kind you can't reliably have with your wife.

Cultivate those people in your life. Make time for them. (And don't let your wife shut it down. That is abusive too!)

Having outside influences that remind you what normal/healthy looks and feels like will make it harder for that "smell" to sneak up on you.

[Sluggo]

Thank you GK.

just a normal pleasant conversation... .without that nagging fear that you are going to be trapped, abused, yelled at, criticized, or say the wrong thing and regret it for a week. The kind you can't reliably have with your wife.

That is a great observation.  I have felt that but didn't know how to express it.  We were talking in MC with wife and T and I was trying to explain why I don't feel like talking after I get dumped on (but my wife sees it as expressing herself and letting me know the things she doesn't like). 

I limit the topics I talk to my wife about to stay safe as the items I share can be 'used against me' when she is angry (looking at face book, or reading about the news, or telling her I am reading a new book, etc)  many times those types of comments will come back later stating that I can spend time doing those things but don't spend time with her.  Making her feel like she is in last place in my life.   

thanks again. 

[formflier]

 

My wife uses the phrase... ."I've got to be honest... ."  and then what usually follows is abusive or some other horror.

I fully believe my wife does not think that she is being abusive... .or is intending to be abusive.

I'm considering trying to start using the phrase "I've got to be kind and loving... ." followed by something nice I can say.

There's a little bit of "fighting back" or "point making" in my thoughts about doing that... .

Who knows if I ever will... .

FF

[Lucky Jim]

I limit the topics I talk to my wife about to stay safe as the items I share can be 'used against me' when she is angry (looking at face book, or reading about the news, or telling her I am reading a new book, etc)  many times those types of comments will come back later stating that I can spend time doing those things but don't spend time with her.  Making her feel like she is in last place in my life.  

I used to do this, too, All4.  It's an alternative to walking on eggshells, because you only share "safe" information.  Problem is, if you're like me, you're also detaching from your W and keeping your feelings to yourself, in order to avoid having them thrown back in your face later.  Towards the end of my M, I shared less and less with my BPDxW and we were like ships passing in the night.  What kind of a marriage is that?  Not a healthy one, that's for sure.  At that point, It was all over but the shouting.

LuckyJim

[Grey Kitty]

My wife uses the phrase... ."I've got to be honest... ."  and then what usually follows is abusive or some other horror.

What if you cut her off right there and said "STOP. if it isn't kind, you don't need to be honest."

I fully believe my wife does not think that she is being abusive... .or is intending to be abusive.

If so, lets hope she can realize that that is the result, even though it isn't her intention.

(Hmmmm... .how long did it take us to realize how invalidating we were being?)

I'm considering trying to start using the phrase "I've got to be kind and loving... ." followed by something nice I can say.

There's a little bit of "fighting back" or "point making" in my thoughts about doing that... .

Who knows if I ever will... .

I hope not. Sounds passive-aggressive instead of kind to do it like that.

How about randomly saying something kind and validating... .with any introduction.

[Sluggo]

I like that FF.  That would be a little funny.