Kid "Dates"

[Turkish]

D3, S5 (6 in 2 months).

We have joint custody. Though there have been some issues of anger and acting out mostly due to his mom emotionally and situationally neglecting our son, things have generally been ok.

My question in in general: uBPD mom takes the kids out on "dates" to spend one-on-one time with them. I don't have as much of the resources to do this (other than their mom, which I did exactly once to take S5 to a concert).

I understand this concept, but it feels odd to me with kids so young. I've told S5, "the three of us are a family; we do things together." He seems to accept that.

Am I wrong on feeling that this is odd for kids this young? I am the only child of a single mother, and the families I knew growing up were BPD-ish, so I have no frame of reference.

[flourdust]

Can you explain a little more about what seems so unusual about the "dates"?

I ask, because we use the same term a lot in my family. We'll often have a "daddy-daughter date" or "mommy-daughter date night" if it's just one of us for the evening. This is usually just going out to dinner, or to a coffee shop, or to do the shopping, or whatever. My daughter likes the term, though, as it makes her feel special.

[Sunfl0wer]

I see friends on FB post about their daddy daughter "dates" with their 3 year old.  To be honest.  It makes me feel uncomfortable.   I just don't see the need to refer to this "parenting" time as a "date."  I also do not see the need to fashion this time modeling it after what couples typically do on a date.  

I am sensitive to parents wanting to parentify their kids.

I understand the concept of wanting one on one time with each child.  Time solo to freely talk and have a relationship is great.  I think this solo time can be defined more broadly than just "date" time.  It can be one on one time to do something special before the younger sibling wakes up.  It can be time at home doing what some call floortime play.  It can be a solo trip to a toy store, park, or even a walk around the block... .and it can also be dinner and a movie... .but not just "date" like activities... .idk... .just my opinion.

It kind of bothers me to see online viral stuff congratulating dads for spending time with their kids... .like having a dance party when mom is away.  I feel that a lot of dads DO in fact spend quality time with their kids... .and don't need to make a big show or hype about something.  It feels like an overcompensation or something.  It feels to me to state the opposite... .to make a big deal about a dad spending time with their kid, almost expresses that this is a rare event to be celebrated vs the norm.  I rather see examples that assume this to be the norm... .and maybe less flamboyant examples.   I rather see dads have a more consistently involved attentive role vs a "one night fun fling" with the kid.  But heck, better to have a fun weekend dad than an estranged one.

Anyway... .

I think it is neat that S5 is noting differences between the households.  I think it is a healthy message to send that: Every home does different things.  It sounds like he is observing this on his own, and will do so at friends homes as well.  He will notice and accept differences in free time, disciplining etc.  I am sure at your home, you may do fun things that they don't do with mom.  Maybe they have a yard with you... .or go to a different park, or play with a neighbor, or something mom doesn't?  

With SD, mom was always trying to compete.  She would make a big stink over treating SD extra special to make her think it was a competition... .and that mom was "better" or "fun-ner."  I tried to send the indirect message that it wasn't about competing, but about: Learning to be flexible in different homes, different fun, different discipline, different experiences... .can all make life more fulfilling.  I tried to convey... .it was MORE... .not less.

Wow... .a long ramble.  :/

[Deb]

My husband's niece did the date thing with her kids, but when they were older. She had 7 kids, so she would take each one some place---the park, the store for ice cream etc--- so they could air any grievances or just have some mommy time. Of course niece isn't dysfunctional.

[Turkish]

Thanks for the feedback. Differences in opinions and experiences here 

I'm obviously concerned due to their mom being a little "here and there." My mom could be like that, too, trying this or that rather than being consistent.

I don't think it's necessarily creepy (though the one vid on FB that I saw a few years ago where the dad showed up with flowers and his 9 year old was dressed up like a teen would on a date, I did think was creepy).

It's a fine line. If the kids know it's just a term, and so do the parents, then it's ok. That it's being used by someone who was the victim of parentification and also maybe emotional incest, is what concerns me. There have been plenty of signs of the kids' mom using them for emotional soothing, which even my T picked up on "the kids aren't responsible for her feelings."

So, I'm loathe to use the term in my house, though maybe tongue-in-cheek. I won't reinforce it here, nor will I invalidate it there.

[Mutt]

Though there have been some issues of anger and acting out mostly due to his mom emotionally and situationally neglecting our son, things have generally been ok.

Hi Turk,

I see that the dates means different things with different people. I just want to set that aside for now.

What sorts of feelings would that illicit with mom if her S is emotionally and situationally neglected? My guess is that she feels guilty with the anger issues wants to set time aside for one on one time.

Personally, it seems like the long way around, I would appreciate it if my ex were more direct, it doesn't show accountability for situational neglect, the dates sound like it wraps thing up neatly.

[ennie]

I think that in a family with two or more kids, some one-on-one time with each parent is helpful.  I find that with the BPD mom in my SDs life, one on one time with her helps them get more of their needs met by a mom who is mostly focused on herself.  When both kids are with her, she plays games that make one child feel more special, one be "odd man out." I notice the kids being more settled and happier when they each get occasional alone time with mom.

That alone time does not need to be costly or fancy.  We have one evening a month with each girl--mom has the other girl.  DH leaves it up to the kids--do they want time just with him, with both of us, or just me, but the focus is on the kid.  With mom, so much time is about her, that it is nice to focus entirely on the girls once a month.  Sometimes we have a game night, sometimes we watch movies, sometimes we have a "special person night," in which everyone writes down what they appreciate about each other, and we read all of the papers together. 

[Turkish]

Mutt,

I think what you are saying in effect is something like "don't look a gift horse in the mouth."

She emailed me today, saying that she was taking our son on a date for a couple of hours before she picked up D3, then suggested that I do the same. I responded that it was good, but that we dont call one-on-one time "dates" at our house. Other than once, the kids have never asked for one-on-one time with me. Given her BPD traits, I realize that I am biased, so thanks to everyone for feedback. I'm not given to flying off the handle,.but I can certainly go down unnecessary paths in my mind.

I think I am still angry about not having the kids all of the time due to mom's choices. So I am loathe to give up any time with either one. The weekend, she texted me, "if you need help with the kids, let me know." I was sick, tired, but still took care of them. I'm still a little angry, and I need to focus on what's best for the kids. She does that often, trying to get extra time,.as if I can't manage my life around the schedule of not having them here 50% of the time.

[Sunfl0wer]

I'm not sure any good is going to come of you correcting her vocab on dates and such.

Is she following your PP?  Or is she using "dates" as an excuse to encroach on the kids parenting time with you?  Or is she refusing to take both kids when she is supposed to take both?  Maybe she can't handle both so is trying to put a positive spin on it?

In any event... .I would not get into discussing what you do with the kids when they are with you... .dates or no dates or otherwise... .sounds like she is trying to control you and appear superior.

I worry she may be redefining your already agreed upon plan with time sharing... .and this may confuse things.

Something just sounds fishy to me.

[bravhart1]

turkish,

I'm kinda with you here, I dont "date" my children.

The thing I'm more wondering about though is when you say "she emailed to say she was picking up son early for a date", do you mean she was supposed to pick him up and emailed to ask if she could do it earlier? Or that she emailed to say she was doing a random visit in the middle of your time?

[Turkish]

Other than periodically offering to watch the kids on my time in case I "need to do something" (as if I can't manage my life), she respects my time. It's coming more often, as her depression was triggered, and something is going on with her marriage. So she is kind of turning to the kids more now. If she wants to do something with them while they are at the baby-sitter's (their grandma) and I'm at work, it's no big deal to me.

S5 told me the other night that she sleeps with them, her H being on the other side of the bed "behind Mommy's back."  Sometimes they still do with me, mostly with D3 wandering in at 3AM--- I kicked them both out Sunday night when they went into my room after I had put them into their own beds. I told the kids that if I had a wife, that they wouldn't be allowed in my room at night. But that's another issue... .

[Sunfl0wer]

I think it would be fair with a biomom with BPD and parentification tendencies... .

to plant the seed that: Adult beds are for adults.  It is good/beneficial to allow adults private time alone in their beds.  It is good for D3 & S5 to enjoy your own private "wind down" time in your own beds... .reading a book... .chatting quietly with stuffed bear... .etc.

It can be presented as part of good "sleep hygiene" and good heath for all.  The benefits of a good long night of uninterrupted sleep are scientific.  Maybe they can learn that alone time at night is "special" time for them to appreciate having alone time in their rooms/beds.

(Not sure I like the message that it sends that mom faces kiddos with her back to her male partner... .but yea... .I'm a bit cynical sometimes... .maybe)

[Turkish]

Cuddle time is ok. But if I were a step dad, it would bother me if it were habitual. D3 was crying a lot the other night when she insisted on sleeping in my bed. I stayed with both of them until she calmed down. I keep telling them that in 2-3 years, D3 gets the other room as girls and boys need their privacy. Not sure how their mom is going to deal with that, but that's not my issue.

I'd hesitate to cry "Enmeshment" but over the past few months, our daughter has been constantly whining for her mom.We agreed to do the nightly calls a year ago because it was causing issues, but I'm letting that boundary soften, based upon what the kids want. It isn't in the stipulation either way. 

[unicorn2014]

D3, S5 (6 in 2 months).

We have joint custody. Though there have been some issues of anger and acting out mostly due to his mom emotionally and situationally neglecting our son, things have generally been ok.

My question in in general: uBPD mom takes the kids out on "dates" to spend one-on-one time with them. I don't have as much of the resources to do this (other than their mom, which I did exactly once to take S5 to a concert).

I understand this concept, but it feels odd to me with kids so young. I've told S5, "the three of us are a family; we do things together." He seems to accept that.

Am I wrong on feeling that this is odd for kids this young? I am the only child of a single mother, and the families I knew growing up were BPD-ish, so I have no frame of reference.

Because I only have one child I can't really comment on the separate time with parents subject, but I can say that I split up with my child's father when she was 4.5 and others have commented on how her father used to emotionally treat her like his wife after the split. In fact a mutual friend once saw them out on the town together and reported this back to me. So I say this to say trust your instincts on this one. Also perhaps it is fortuitous that you are getting a handle on this when they are so young as it may help prevent problems when they are older. I agree with you, we are a family, we do things together.

[Ulysses]

Hi Turkish,

My son's therapist suggested I do some things one-on-one with him (my son - not the therapist, LOL) last year, our first year of being divorced.  I would sometimes go for walks with him, and sometimes I watch a tv show he likes, after my D is asleep.  I didn't have enough money or energy or time to do much else.

I would never have called it a date.  I think that's weird, but it does sound like lots of people say that.  A few times, before the divorce, when my ex would take S someplace, my daughter and I would talk about having "girl time."  I have also taken S to certain plays that I enjoy, that are performed once/year.  He enjoys them, too and it's become a tradition.  Now that D is older she comes, too, although she doesn't enjoy it as much as S.  If I were still married, I might not have D come yet because of her age.

I think it can be great to have one-on-one time with each child.  It can be just a story and snuggle, or a tv show or walk. 

My exNPD/BPDh used to sleep with D3 on the couch.  And snuggle with her and she would kiss his chest and it  made me want to puke.  He would sleep on the couch with her while he wrote erotica/pornography books and sexted his affair partner in the middle of the night.  After I found out about his activities I told him no more sleeping with her on the couch.  And he was definitely the victim of emotional incest with his mother.  So I'm probably over sensitive to the whole "date" phrase.  Perhaps it's just semantics, but I can see where it could be looked at differently depending on what term you use.  The other poster is right - listen to your gut.  I tell myself, now, that it doesn't mean I have to act on it, but listen to that instinct and be aware of what it is saying.  Maybe write down what you feel and think.  Sometimes when my ex does seemingly weird things, I find out later he was up to something, or was reacting to something somewhere else in his life.  Then the pieces fall together and the next time I can remember it could be about him and not the kids and not me.

One thing I have trouble with is that I was planning to do special one-on-one activities with each child as they got older and we had more money.  It feels like the divorce threw a wrench in those plans.  Now I'm so busy with work and going to school full-time that I don't see my children much, and I feel self-absorbed.  But I know that's not the best way to describe it.  My S therapist told my S, about my working and not being a SAHM anymore, that it's "survival."  Eases some of my guilt, I guess.

I totally understand your trepidation that your ex doesn't have consistency when she parents, and things feel like they might be a flash-in-the-pan.  My ex is like that, too.  I'm grateful I don't have to be part of it.  I can keep truckin' along, doing the traditions with my kids that I have always done, and some new ones, and try to stay constant year after year, while also trying new things now and again.  I don't know how it all will affect the children.  I pray they'll see reality and become healthy adults.

[Turkish]

Ulysses,

That's creepy what he did with your daughter. Glad you put a stop to that, though there's nothing wrong with cuddling with a child under normal circumstances.

One-on-one time is certainly beneficial and healthy. It their mom's tendency to mirror others, rather than being consistent, which concerns me. For instance, S5 told me the other day that when he fell down in the park, Mommy told him that Leaders don't let that stop them, that they get up and try until they suceede. IMO, a bit heavy on the corporate-speak for a 5 yo. There was validity in the message, but the way it was communicated was weird to me.

That both homes are struggling with co-sleeping is also concerning. I got both kids to bed in their room sucessfully. An hour later, I checked and S5 moved to my room, uncharacteristically. I think I need to talk to their mom about that.

[Ulysses]

Mommy told him that Leaders don't let that stop them, that they get up and try until they suceede.

Well, I can certainly understand why that seems weird to you.  It seems age-inappropriate to me.  I wonder what your son thought and felt?  Your corporate-speak comment made me laugh.  I then thought maybe someone will create a comedy skit advertising a new parenting approach based on corporate-speak.

I think my father mirrored others' hobbies and interests when I was growing up.  I noticed it when I was a child.  I wonder if your children will notice it once they get older?

I don't know what to say about the co-sleeping.  My S never did, and sometimes when he was a baby I wondered if it would have benefited him.  I wasn't an advocate of it.  I tried it a couple of times just to see if it would help him settle down, and it didn't.  My D did start co-sleeping with me, and I didn't fight it.  There was so much emotion and upheaval in our lives, that I felt it was a battle I didn't need to fight.  Now that she's 7 and we have our own place she doesn't co-sleep with me anymore.  If she has a nightmare she snuggles with me and then returns to her bed.  We're sharing a room right now, but our beds are on opposite sides of the room.  At any rate, I just felt it was something she would grow out of (which she has) and I let it evolve naturally.  We're all different, though, and certainly if you'd asked me when my kids were babies if I'd have them sleep in my bed when they were 4 or 5 I would have said, no way.  Do you ask your kids why they come in your room?  Do they miss you?  Is it their way of getting extra time with you?  Do they have nightmares?  My D once told me she doesn't remember her dreams when she's at her dad's house, but she does when she's with me, including nightmares.

[Turkish]

I put them to bed in their room. D3 ended up in my bed, S5 on the couch. I was outside on the back porch for a while. I went in to check on them and saw.

Last night,  they were both in my bed,.going there by themselves. 4 am, I went into their room.l to sleep by myself.5 am, D3 wanders in asking, ":)addy?" I snuggled her for an hour until I got up. S5 sleeps like a log... D3 needs closeness at this point. Still struggling with this.

[formflier]

 

Turkish,

I don't like the term date.  I just say "let's go spend time together".

Last night it ended up being s13.  Other kids were scattered about... .so it worked out.

Anyway... .went to burger king and hung out.  I asked about his world... school... .asked what he thought about upcoming move for our family.  Tried to listen... .was conscious to validate and take not of his concerns.

He is a big gamer... .so... .when I asked him about HALO (xbox)... .I got the most detailed explanation ever... .I asked questions... .enjoyed being in his world.

We came home... I hung out with him in his room for a bit... .he showed me some of the halo stuff he told me about... .and then I went to bed.

Two summers ago we went through family T.  The T pushed hard for individual time with me and all the kids.  Relaxed time with me... .and for me to go to their world... .meet them where they are at.  No parenting (unless it's really really needed)... .just hanging out... .having conversation.

We also do groups... .but I would make sure that you spend 1 on 1 time with each kid and be OBVIOUS about it to that kid. 

Where do these discussions go... .well... .about a week ago... with same S13... .we were hanging out at home... .just me and him.  He says... "So I was talking to this weird girl on the bus... .she showed me the marks on her hands from where she cuts herself... ."    Sigh... . 

I'm glad he felt comfortable to talk about that... .I probably wouldn't have brought that up to my parents at 13. 

FF