I'm having some trouble lately with the emphasis on looking at ourselves

[Family Court Strategies: When Your Partner Has BPD OR NPD Traits.]

Hi friends,

I've been having some trouble lately with the emphasis on looking at ourselves and what was wrong with us, when many of us were victims of emotional or even physical abuse. I'm all for examining my role in the relationship problems and have been trying to do that, but I also firmly believe that I was a victim of emotional abuse, and that my ex (not me) is mentally ill and incapable of a healthy relationship. Are there other people here who feel similarly?

There was nothing inherently "wrong" with me when the relationship started, other than not having an advanced degree in psychology to be able to recognize what was going on and get out before I fell in love with her. I fell in love with her for the regular healthy reasons that anyone would fall in love (except that, again, I didn't have the advanced knowledge to recognize the BPD mirroring chameleon behavior). I didn't stay because I was a doormat or codependent, I just loved her and wanted to do everything in my power to make it work, and I don't think there's anything wrong with that.

I definitely could have responded better to her BPD behaviors during the first part of our relationship. But when her BPD behaviors and/or normal relationship disagreements first started showing up, I was actually trying to communicate quite effectively, with a good balance of assertiveness and willingness to listen and compromise. The conflict came when she couldn't communicate that way, listen to me, or handle my normal human emotions. I made things worse by getting upset and continuing to ask her to act in a way that she wasn't capable of, not realizing and accepting sooner that she wasn't capable, but still, the root of that problem is her BPD.

And once I started using the tools to improve things, she's so addicted to drama that she responded by increasing her sabotaging and abusive behaviors to maintain or increase the level of conflict. I was giving her less material to paint me black with, so she felt like she didn't deserve me, afraid I would abandon her (especially since we moved to different places), and she had to sabotage the relationship. She made false accusations, was unfaithful, terribly disrespected my physical disability, broke up with me every few days, etc and eventually blew up the relationship. My new sense of boundaries are what kept me from recycling. If I hadn't found this board we'd probably still be together. I'd be miserable, but we'd be together.

Some of her behaviors were especially damaging to me because of my FOO issues (my parents were emotionally abusive and then my ex was emotionally abusive in a similar way), but I'd already done the work to recover from that. I would have been totally fine handling the normal ups and downs of a healthy relationship. In fact I would have been healthier and better at communicating than most people because I'd done years of hard work on myself.

My ex told me (and to this day is telling me) that there's something very wrong with me and my mental health. She even backpedaled on a lot of her insight and apologies for some of the more egregious behavior, instead rewriting history to blame it on me. And I know that is projection, gaslighting which is further emotional abuse, and it's just not true. She emotionally abused me. The only problem with my mental health currently is from the trauma that she inflicted on me. Does anyone else feel that way? And did anyone feel that way but then realize there was something going on with you?

[thisagain]

Hi friends,

I've been having some trouble lately with the emphasis on looking at ourselves and what was wrong with us, when many of us were victims of emotional or even physical abuse. I'm all for examining my role in the relationship problems and have been trying to do that, but I also firmly believe that I was a victim of emotional abuse, and that my ex (not me) is mentally ill and incapable of a healthy relationship. Are there other people here who feel similarly?

There was nothing inherently "wrong" with me when the relationship started, other than not having an advanced degree in psychology to be able to recognize what was going on and get out before I fell in love with her. I fell in love with her for the regular healthy reasons that anyone would fall in love (except that, again, I didn't have the advanced knowledge to recognize the BPD mirroring chameleon behavior). I didn't stay because I was a doormat or codependent, I just loved her and wanted to do everything in my power to make it work, and I don't think there's anything wrong with that.

I definitely could have responded better to her BPD behaviors during the first part of our relationship. But when her BPD behaviors and/or normal relationship disagreements first started showing up, I was actually trying to communicate quite effectively, with a good balance of assertiveness and willingness to listen and compromise. The conflict came when she couldn't communicate that way, listen to me, or handle my normal human emotions. I made things worse by getting upset and continuing to ask her to act in a way that she wasn't capable of, not realizing and accepting sooner that she wasn't capable, but still, the root of that problem is her BPD.

And once I started using the tools to improve things, she's so addicted to drama that she responded by increasing her sabotaging and abusive behaviors to maintain or increase the level of conflict. I was giving her less material to paint me black with, so she felt like she didn't deserve me, afraid I would abandon her (especially since we moved to different places), and she had to sabotage the relationship. She made false accusations, was unfaithful, terribly disrespected my physical disability, broke up with me every few days, etc and eventually blew up the relationship. My new sense of boundaries are what kept me from recycling. If I hadn't found this board we'd probably still be together. I'd be miserable, but we'd be together.

Some of her behaviors were especially damaging to me because of my FOO issues (my parents were emotionally abusive and then my ex was emotionally abusive in a similar way), but I'd already done the work to recover from that. I would have been totally fine handling the normal ups and downs of a healthy relationship. In fact I would have been healthier and better at communicating than most people because I'd done years of hard work on myself.

My ex told me (and to this day is telling me) that there's something very wrong with me and my mental health. She even backpedaled on a lot of her insight and apologies for some of the more egregious behavior, instead rewriting history to blame it on me. And I know that is projection, gaslighting which is further emotional abuse, and it's just not true. She emotionally abused me. The only problem with my mental health currently is from the trauma that she inflicted on me. Does anyone else feel that way? And did anyone feel that way but then realize there was something going on with you?

[enlighten me]

Hi Thisagain

There are a number of things that I think we do not see at first.

Firstly our part in the dance. We ignore red flags. Yes at first they appear to be normal but the love bombing and being too good to be true is a red flag so why do we ignore this? What is it about us that we are so desperate for that can lead us into these relationships?

I was I thought a strong independent person. Well balanced and confident. I now realise I wasn't as confident as I thought I was and deep down I wanted that fairy tale romance and to meet my soul mate. This left me vulnerable.

Secondly yes you were a victim but only we can make ourselves victims. Look at con men. They target someone that has a weakness. Whether its greed or kindness the victims have left themselves open to be taken advantage of. Im not saying that pwBPD are con men or women. I believe in the beginning they want what we all want, a happy ending. The fact that they are not honest about who they are is just their nature. Its what they are used to so it becomes natural.

Finally the fact that most pwBPD see their ex as the one with a problem is all down to a point of view. We think differently. As we don't think the same as them then they see us as being the one with a problem. Whos to say what is normal only we can say what is normal for us. The same goes for a pwBPD they can only say what is normal for them.

[Suspicious1]

Having been in an abusive relationship with my ex (non pwBPD) and explored this at length with my psychologist and counsellor, I'm quite keen not to take the "what was wrong with me?" approach to all this. When it comes to abusers, that way lies danger, because they are all too eager to push the angle that you contributed to it and it was all your fault. It's simple victim-blaming, and it can keep people stuck in bad relationships.

I agree that it's good to look at oneself and how one functions in a relationship, but looking at that through the lens of "what was WRONG with me" especially in terms of an abusive relationship can just lead to further damage and is diverting from the point.

Often we "ignore" red flags, because we don't know that they are red flags. Before the relationship with my exBPFbf, I didn't know that over-enthusiasm at the beginning a relationship was a red flag. I know it NOW, in fact I know the red flags off by heart, and one of the things my counsellor said is that I'm incredibly unlikely to become involved in another abusive relationship because of it. But this has been my learning process.

And it's rarely black and white anyway. Every person you meet with have a red flag. Every person you meet will have a moment where they seem to act in a disproportionate way to something. Cutting that person out of your life is not a sign of a healthy boundary, it's just a sign of having unrealistic expectations. Often abuse (or a disorder) is identified when you see a pattern of behaviour, and in order to identify that their behaviour is forming a pattern you have to stick around for a bit. In fact, as thisagain has already identified, sometimes the reason you stick around is precisely because you're looking at your own behaviour: "what have I done to contribute to this? How can I communicate more effectively to sort this out? Could I have be bringing my own issues to this conflict inappropriately?". And then, for a variety of reasons, you're in it and it may be difficult or painful to get out of that relationship.

I also agree that our feelings during these relationships can tell us a lot about ourselves, what's going on in our lives, what we need, what's happened in the past to form us, etc etc etc. Again though, that doesn't mean there's anything wrong with us. Maybe it helps us identify what needs we need to meet and why those needs are there, and that's ok. I'm certainly not going to beat myself up for having any FOO issues and for having been shaped by them.

I absolutely, categorically do not agree with the premise that "only we can make ourselves victims". I don't think victim-blaming is ever helpful.

[enlighten me]

Unless its an out of the blue attack then we can normally avoid becoming victims. What I feel is more important though is not living as a victim. Yes most of our exs have done horrible things to us that in no way did we deserve. It doesn't mean we have to continue being a victim to it though. I have friends who were in the army and have been injured. They do not see themselves as victims. They get on with their lives and don't dwell on it. Its a lesson learnt as far as they are concerned. This is what I was meaning by only we can make ourselves victims.

I in no way blame the victim. I could sit here a moan about how much both my uBPD exs did to hurt me and for a time I did. I was still in victim mode. I no longer want to be a victim I want to use the experience to learn from and be able to avoid it happening again.

[Suspicious1]

Unless its an out of the blue attack then we can normally avoid becoming victims. What I feel is more important though is not living as a victim. Yes most of our exs have done horrible things to us that in no way did we deserve. It doesn't mean we have to continue being a victim to it though. I have friends who were in the army and have been injured. They do not see themselves as victims. They get on with their lives and don't dwell on it. Its a lesson learnt as far as they are concerned. This is what I was meaning by only we can make ourselves victims.

I in no way blame the victim. I could sit here a moan about how much both my uBPD exs did to hurt me and for a time I did. I was still in victim mode. I no longer want to be a victim I want to use the experience to learn from and be able to avoid it happening again.

I see what you're saying; that it's our choice to either think of ourselves as victims or focus on being survivors. I agree with that. But in terms of protecting ourselves better, I'm not sure how realistic that is in many situations. I'm thinking here with my own set of biases, of course - there were a million reasons I stayed as a victim, but I refuse to accept that I was responsible for existing as that victim. It can happen to the best, the most prepared and the toughest of any of us, be it out of the blue or creeping and insidious. And the responsibility always lies with the perpetrator, as far as I'm concerned.

[enlighten me]

I too thought like that. Im not saying your wrong but for me I realised I stayed longer than most and put up with more than most because of who I am.

I looked at what about me made me want to rescue and why was I so concerned about people thinking bad of me. Why did the FOG keep me stuck when so many others would have walked away long before.

Ive come to accept I have my own set of issues that left me vulnerable to this sort of relationship. Im not blaming myself for them Im just recognising them. If I had never met either of my two uBPDs then I may never have realised about these issues and could have lived a happy normal life without them ever being a problem. Now that I am aware of them Im able to work on them and because of this Im a happier and less stressed person than I was.

[Suspicious1]

Funny isn't it - I stayed for so long BECAUSE I thought I was responsible for the way he was behaving (that and because I had nowhere to go with two young children). It was turning those thoughts around and accepting that his behaviour was his responsibility that helped me gather the strength I needed to leave.

Same outcome, different paths to get there, I guess. What occurs to me is that in both cases, it took a change in attitude to get to where we needed to be.

[C.Stein]

We are victims of our own choices.   For myself, I willingly stepped in front of the bus time and time again because I was in love.  I do have a few codependency traits which certainly didn't help me avoid the bus either.

Initially I was much like how thisagain was; communicative, open, supportive, understanding, patient.   I would attempt to discuss things that impacted me, both in person and via email.   Problem was our interpersonal communication was mostly one sided, particularly when it came to my emotional well being.   She would listen but not engage or really absorb what was being discussed.    She seemed incapable of participating in an adult conversation regarding emotions and quite often would sit across from me like a sullen child. 

The only time she really wanted to "talk" was when it concerned her feelings or something she needed or wanted.  Having discovered BPD after our relationship ended I can now see many cases where I could have handled things better.  This was something I failed at.  While I did attempt to engage her I wasn't doing it effectively and my attempts diminished over time. 

I honestly don't know to what extent my ex is blaming me for our relationship failing, but I have no doubt that a good deal of it is being placed on my shoulders.  She also has selective memory and a tendency to rewrite history, casting herself as the victim.  I can remember in many instances saying ... .that's not what I said or that's not what happened. 

I have no doubt I am being cast as a bad person who wronged her.  She always had a problem with personal accountability.  If I am to be perfectly honest with myself,  in some ways I did fail her which has left me with a great deal of guilt and remorse. 

[Michelle27]

This is a tough one and has been for me.  5 years ago when I stumbled on the existence of BPD when trying to figure out what the problems in my marriage were, and how to fix them, I remember totally dismissing anything that implied or said that I was part of the problem.  In my head, once he was "fixed", we would be all good again.  I struggled with trying to get help including taking him to the hospital, leaving after he manipulated the doctor's to believe I was just a nagging wife and having to call 911 on my cell when he exploded in rage on the way home from the hospital (the police put him in the back of the car and took him back to the hospital where he was admitted for the night).  The next day he was diagnosed with depression and given meds but no follow up.  I tried getting us marriage counseling with 3 different counselors (all sabotaged by him) and enrolled us in a couple's communication course which he also sabotaged and apparently didn't learn a thing from (he claimed his new meds interferred).  During all of this I continued to dismiss anything that sounded like I was at fault.  Slowly it dawned on me that I needed to look at my own behavior but I really compartmentalized it.  I realized I had become no better than him by raging back at him in response to his rages.  I realized I needed to work on validation and I made those changes but I still refused to look at my own side of things beyond that. 

It wasn't until I truly began looking at healing myself, including the anger and resentments that I carry around which I thought was at him.  With a counselor, I had trouble with it but finally accepted that it wasn't him I was mad at but me.  I was upset that I had allowed the behaviors to continue without any boundaries, that I had allowed myself to stay in a relationship in which I felt fear more often than safety.  Most of all that I had allowed my  kids to be subjected to the kind of instability that they had to live with. 

Looking at myself meant looking into my whole history.  My issues of self esteem from childhood, my issues with men after several sexual assaults and a rape in my teens and early 20's.  My first husband was also controlling and abusive but in a much  less insidious way than my BPD ex was.  I don't think it's victim blaming to look at myself and why I chose these men in my life.  I needed (and still need) to do it to ensure I never end up in the same kind of position again.  I can't change the past but I absolutely can change my future by being proactive and doing the work I need to on me to make sure nothing ever happens to me like that again.  Working on my own self worth can't happen without acknowledging what I went through and why, including my own parts in the drama.  I think it's healthy.  None of us our perfect, including our exes and seeing them as "all black" and us as "all white" is no more healthy than them painting us black or white.

[hashtag_loyal]

I don't think emphasizing personal reflection is about assigning blame within the relationship, but rather about self-awareness and empowerment. My dBPDxgf inflicted all the abuse and destroyed the relationship by herself (hell, she even admits that) but I can still gain a lot of understanding, power and healing by reviewing my own behavior within the r/s.

For instance, I used to always love it when she was needy and would send an "I miss you" text out of the blue. I would build self-esteem by receiving such needy gestures, and would become depressed when I didn't receive them. Why is that? Why did I have this "need" to be needed? This has nothing at all to do with my ex and her actions, but everything to do with me and my emotional health.

It is one area I will need to address in order to find future happiness, and I would not have realized it without first looking at myself and how I behaved within my BPD r/s.

[shatra]

enlighten me wrote---

Look at con men. They target someone that has a weakness. Whether its greed or kindness the victims have left themselves open to be taken advantage of.

----Sounds like blaming the victim

Im not saying that pwBPD are con men or women. I believe in the beginning they want what we all want, a happy ending. The fact that they are not honest about who they are is just their nature. Its what they are used to so it becomes natural.

------Robbers are used to robbing and it may become natural... .that doesn't make it okay.  pwBPD are "not honest about who they are" because of dishonesty and BPD traits.

Finally the fact that most pwBPD see their ex as the one with a problem is all down to a point of view. We think differently. As we don't think the same as them then they see us as being the one with a problem. Whos to say what is normal only we can say what is normal for us. The same goes for a pwBPD they can only say what is normal for them.

----The DSM describes traits and symptoms of BPD, which are not traits of a "normal" person.  So a diagnosis can fit someone, it's not just dependent on what we or the pwBPD thinks is normal.  pwBPD often see the ex as the one with the problem, not because it's their "point of view" but because they project negative traits outside of themselves onto others. THey also project responsibility out from them to us

[enlighten me]

You can call it victim blaming if you like. I don't see it as that myself. If you walked into the wrong part of town and got mugged then its not your fault you were mugged but you could have done things differently. These are life lessons. You learn to avoid danger but you only learn by having examples. For me ive learnt that there are a lot of things I could have done differently. I realise that I left myself open.

You say that the DSM says its not traits of a normal person. Can you show me the DSM criteria for what is considered normal? Its a matter of perspective in my opinion and rather than normal I would say healthy. My opinion of what is healthy or "normal" would probably differ to yours. If you read posts by pwBPD they do see their behaviour as normal. Its only when they start treatment and realise that their way of thinking is different to others and understand the hurt they cause that they see their behaviour as not healthy. I think this is where a lot of people get confused as they think that a pwBPD thinks like us and because of this what they do must be malicious. A recent poster with BPD said that she used to think lying was normal and believed everyone did it all the time.

[Invictus01]

Somehow I think there are always two assumptions when it comes to these kind of relationships - (a) the personality disordered person dished out a completely bat$hit crazy behavior from day one and (b) the other party in the relationship took it and asked for more for years without any boundaries whatsoever. Of course, just like we are reminded to remember not to have black and white thinking, we also need to remember that there are a lot of shades in personality disorders as well as "nons" and their personal boundaries. To give you an example on boundaries, my best buddy dated his current wife for years. I don't know how many times while they dated I told him he needed to dump her and walk away without looking back because she put him through stuff that I'd never accept. Somehow he had a way to make it all work, they have been married 5 years now and have a one year old kid. Fast forward years after all my advice for my buddy to dump his gf/current wife, the same buddy was sitting at a table with me and telling me that after the kind of disrespect my ex showed me (the very first time, mind you), I had to walk away from her and not look back (which I did). It is always easier to make suggestions like that when you aren't involved in it and your heart is calm.

The point of the story is this. Everybody's story is a bit different. Yes, of course, if you put up with a ton crappy behavior and flat out abuse and let it go on for years, you probably need to figure out why this was acceptable to you. Then of course just about every time somebody posts something along the lines - "I have finally figured out, all these relationships are hopeless", we get reminders that there is a slight chances that if the "non" is willing to bend over backwards to make it work (wouldn't you have to ask yourself why would you wanna do that, just like you'd need to ask yourself why you stayed in an abusive relationship to begin with?) and the personality disordered person is willing to go through a psychological treatment (the vast majority are not willing to do that), there is a chance it might work.

Do a postmortem of that relationship. See if you were willing to overlook a bit too much and why. Don't dwell on trying to figure out whose fault it was and where. Some of it is on you, some of it on disorder. Remember, things are rarely black and white in life.

[Suspicious1]

If you walked into the wrong part of town and got mugged then its not your fault you were mugged but you could have done things differently.

But that was the whole thing about this relationship for me: it wasn't the wrong part of town. It was actually a really, really REALLY nice part of town, it just had this one turning that took me to a place I didn't know my way around, and once I'd got much further in, the nice bits started to look a bit a bit crappy. But every town has slightly crappy bits, and I wasn't sure if just beyond that crappy bit it would get nice again. The towns I'm used to are like that. And to be honest, the map I had when I came in here suddenly wasn't like the maps I was used to reading, it didn't make sense and I could't find the way out. And then it was while I was in the crappy bit that I didn't plan to go to, with a map I couldn't read - that's when I got mugged.

[enlighten me]

If you walked into the wrong part of town and got mugged then its not your fault you were mugged but you could have done things differently.

But that was the whole thing about this relationship for me: it wasn't the wrong part of town. It was actually a really, really REALLY nice part of town, it just had this one turning that took me to a place I didn't know my way around, and once I'd got much further in, the nice bits started to look a bit a bit crappy. But every town has slightly crappy bits, and I wasn't sure if just beyond that crappy bit it would get nice again. The towns I'm used to are like that. And to be honest, the map I had when I came in here suddenly wasn't like the maps I was used to reading, it didn't make sense and I could't find the way out. And then it was while I was in the crappy bit that I didn't plan to go to, with a map I couldn't read - that's when I got mugged.

That's the thing we all have different points where we think this isn't right and head back the way we came. Its what made us keep going that we have to consider. Why did we push on when things didn't seem right? Why did we make excuses? Why did we convince ourselves that it was going to be ok?

[shatra]

enlighten wrote

You say that the DSM says its not traits of a normal person. Can you show me the DSM criteria for what is considered normal? Its a matter of perspective in my opinion and rather than normal I would say healthy. My opinion of what is healthy or "normal" would probably differ to yours.

----That is not what I wrote. I wrote that the DSM describes traits of BPD, and those traits are not those of a normal person. That's why it's a psychiatric diagnosis.  It's not a matter of perspective, those are psychiatric traits which can be diagnosed by a professional, whatever someone else's opinion is.

If you read posts by pwBPD they do see their behaviour as normal.

------Psychopaths also see their behavior as normal. Some psychotic people also do, etc.   That distorted view and denial do not make the behavior normal.  BPD is a serious mental illness with severe symptoms, and can be life-threatening.

[Darsha500]

Shatra wrote

----The DSM describes traits and symptoms of BPD, which are not traits of a "normal" person.

Enlighten me wrote:

You say the dsm says it's not traits of a normal person.

Shantra wrote:

That's not what I wrote.




Darsha500 wrote.

This back a forth seems unproductive, and ultimately pointless. That, however, is only my perspective.

[once removed]

I don't think emphasizing personal reflection is about assigning blame within the relationship, but rather about self-awareness and empowerment.

i agree.

i saw an old member write that early on in our process, being told to "examine your role" feels as if your child died, and you are being told to examine your role in that. at best, it can feel awfully invalidating. youre grieving, and it sounds like a finger being pointed at you. "isnt this bpdfamily? didnt i come here to learn more about my ex and BPD and share with others what i have been through?" well sure! i think most of us came here looking for answers. what i think can be difficult to see is that most of the answers lie inside of us.

i dont think the notion of examining ones role is about blame. i dont think its about being the bigger person. its not even about having ignored red flags, although that can be a great start (it can also be about blame). its not about labels (although the membership here have many issues in common. you are already doing great work in connecting your FOO issues and youre not alone in this connection)

we are all, sadly, on the leaving board, and since our relationships have concluded, it is fundamentally about detachment. who and what can we change at this point but ourselves? who and what are our energy best spent on? therefore, it is about empowerment. it is about balance. it is about detaching in a healthy way. and ultimately it tends to yield the answers we are looking for. no one is expected to have this attitude over night.

was i emotionally abused? sure. did my ex realize her behavior was abusive? probably not. does that make it less abusive? no. what took me a long time to realize was that i emotionally abused her too, whether i realized it or not.

at this point, what part of that takeaway is most valuable to me? what part of that summary can i tangibly do something with?

i like to think of my role in a very visual sense. i see the relationship as one long unhealthy dance. every step a dysfunctional action or reaction from her or i. the following link, particularly the reply of a senior member, really helps aid my visual: PERSPECTIVES: From idealization to devaluation - why we struggle

as for whether or not we are victims, i found i reached the freedom stage as i moved From Victim to Survivor to Thriver . another empowering notion

[Reforming]

I think that there can be tendency here to focus on our part in these relationships rather than our exes and it can feel particularly invalidating in the early stages when most of us are still struggling to process our pain grief and anger at what's happened.

Is it productive? Yes I think it is. 

What's the alternative?

Ultimately we're powerless to change our exes or their behaviour but we do have power to change ourselves and moving away from a victim mentality empowers us to grow and move forward.

It's often hard and painful work and when you feel very injured and wronged it's completely natural to periodically revert back to anger and blame towards the ex who caused you a lot of pain.

I know I've done this, but it's a cul de sac.

But it's also important to allow other members the time and space to reach the point where they're ready to do this.

To my mind the sweet spot in healing lies between self examination and immersing yourself in the here and now.

A lot of our healing happens under the hood so to speak and committing ourselves to new activities, socialising and exercise gives our mind a much needed break from introspection.

There is no time scale for detaching and healing. We have to drive it a pace that works for us, but I think it takes more than time to heal, it takes effort and commitment

Reforming

[Gonzalo]

Part of the problem for me is that people phrase it in terms of what you did to contribute to the relationship ending, and seem to want to split blame for the relationship not working. I know very well that all I could have done better in the relationship was to set firm boundaries earlier, and leave when (not if) they were violated. I could have spotted red flags and slowed down or stopped as they came up. I could have refused to allow her to treat me badly long enough that I started yelling back.

The thing is, all of these would have led to the relationship ending SOONER, not made it work better or last longer. There really wasn't an option for me to stay in the relationship and make it work - I could have stayed in and tolerated bad behavior until it wore me down to the point of a nervous breakdown or suicide, but that doesn't count as working. I think the 'how did you contribute' questions are really destructive to someone trying to get to grips with a no-win situation.

[enlighten me]

I think how we contributed is a little misinterpreted. Yes I did contribute but the things my ex saw as negative a non would probably not have.

By giving my ex space and showing I trusted her was seen as abandonment. Is what I did a negative in a healthy relationship? I would say no it isn't. Did it contribute to the breakdown of my BPD relationship. I would say yes.

That's just one example.

Its not a case that we directly went out of our way to hurt them its just our actions weren't received in the manner in which they were intended.

[Darsha500]

You bring up a really interesting point there enlighten me.

So in AA one of the twelve steps is to make amends for wrongs done. In currently taking a SPONSEE through this step. But as we were going through it, it made me reflect on my relationship. I couldn't help by think of all the wrongs done to me, at first. But then I stopped to consider my part. As that is what the step is about, analyzing and taking responsibility for our part.

I thought that my only part was not being more assertive and honest with my feelings. But you make this really good point that it's not so much the intention as the result that counts. I did many things that I didn't realize we're hurtful to her.

It's sort of a dilemma I'm going to have to ponder.

[C.Stein]

I thought that my only part was not being more assertive and honest with my feelings. But you make this really good point that it's not so much the intention as the result that counts. I did many things that I didn't realize we're hurtful to her.

It's sort of a dilemma I'm going to have to ponder.

I agree.  I am struggling with this as well.   I was not aware of BPD until post discard, but now that I am aware I can see many instances where I could have behaved better, reacted better, been more patient.  It really has me feeling a lot of guilt and remorse because I know I triggered some of her hurtful behavior.  

That being said, I also have to tell myself that regardless of my contribution to triggering her, the stuff she did is just a part of her and eventually would have manifested itself one way or the other.   I don't know if this is fair or not, but my gut tells me it is true.   It still doesn't keep me from wondering if the destruction of the relationship could have been avoided ... .or would it have just lead to the end being delayed?  I really don't know.

[balletomane]

You bring up a really interesting point there enlighten me.

So in AA one of the twelve steps is to make amends for wrongs done. In currently taking a SPONSEE through this step. But as we were going through it, it made me reflect on my relationship. I couldn't help by think of all the wrongs done to me, at first. But then I stopped to consider my part. As that is what the step is about, analyzing and taking responsibility for our part.

I thought that my only part was not being more assertive and honest with my feelings. But you make this really good point that it's not so much the intention as the result that counts. I did many things that I didn't realize we're hurtful to her.

It's sort of a dilemma I'm going to have to ponder.

Hmm. My situation seems to be a bit different. In my relationship I took responsibility for almost everything that went wrong. Sometimes I did this just to appease my ex and get him to stop lashing out at me or being spiteful (which is something I definitely shouldn't have done) but often I genuinely believed that it was all because of me. I wasn't patient enough, I wasn't selfless enough, I wasn't generous enough, I was being unreasonable, I was too critical. A big part of my recovery has been accepting that no, it wasn't me.

Now my only regret is not telling the truth when I was afraid of him - he would look at me with a facial expression that used to literally make me feel sick because I knew a rage was coming, and say something like, "You don't believe me, do you?" or (even worse - danger ahead) "I know what you think. You think that... ." And I would rush to reassure him that I did believe in his latest paranoid worry or suspicion, whatever it was, that I did agree with him, just to avert the hurricane. But again, I was not like that at the beginning of our relationship - it was something I learned to do in response to his outbursts, because psychologically I couldn't cope with them.

[once removed]

In my relationship I took responsibility for almost everything that went wrong.

i think this is a perfect example of examining ourselves without blaming. balletomane, have you dug into why you took that responsibility and how things got that way in the relationship?

[thisagain]

Part of the problem for me is that people phrase it in terms of what you did to contribute to the relationship ending, and seem to want to split blame for the relationship not working. I know very well that all I could have done better in the relationship was to set firm boundaries earlier, and leave when (not if) they were violated. I could have spotted red flags and slowed down or stopped as they came up. I could have refused to allow her to treat me badly long enough that I started yelling back.

The thing is, all of these would have led to the relationship ending SOONER, not made it work better or last longer. There really wasn't an option for me to stay in the relationship and make it work - I could have stayed in and tolerated bad behavior until it wore me down to the point of a nervous breakdown or suicide, but that doesn't count as working. I think the 'how did you contribute' questions are really destructive to someone trying to get to grips with a no-win situation.

I think how we contributed is a little misinterpreted. Yes I did contribute but the things my ex saw as negative a non would probably not have.

By giving my ex space and showing I trusted her was seen as abandonment. Is what I did a negative in a healthy relationship? I would say no it isn't. Did it contribute to the breakdown of my BPD relationship. I would say yes.

That's just one example.

Its not a case that we directly went out of our way to hurt them its just our actions weren't received in the manner in which they were intended.

Thanks for the thoughtful comments everyone! I'm trying to digest all of this little by little... .my interest in thinking about my ex or BPD has decreased significantly over the past few weeks and I'm trying to spend more time putting my life back together.

The above posts by Gonzalo and Enlighten Me pretty much sum up how I feel about the whole thing. I think all I really could have done differently was figure out the BPD sooner and start applying the tools (especially boundaries) sooner. And that would have just caused the relationship to end sooner, either by me having to leave because of a boundary, or her blowing the relationship up to remain at her comfort-zone level of drama. Like I said before, me having boundaries and refusing to play the role she wanted me to in her drama directly led to the breakdown of the relationship.

She accuses me of hurting her so much, being abusive, etc... .but like Enlighten said, almost 100% of the things she perceived as hurtful and abusive were either totally normal and healthy, or me responding to her BPD behaviors in a less-than-ideal way out of confusion and desperation. And by less-than-ideal, I mostly mean responding like a normal human with normal human emotions (being sad when she gave me ST, begging her to hold me when I was sad, etc). I should have accepted that she couldn't hold me or be there for me, yes, but it's also totally normal and healthy to want that from a partner. Everyone makes mistakes, but mine were well within the realm of normal inevitable mistakes that everyone makes in a relationship.

I did develop some codependent-type behaviors, which I did not have at all in previous relationships. Like trying to head off a dysregulation by offering advice or getting too involved in something that was none of my business. But I see that as a totally understandable response to being with a person who is constantly bringing crises upon herself and using them as an excuse to mistreat me. And I realized there was a grain of truth to her accusation (that I was being controlling), thought hard about it, worked with my T about it, and stopped doing it. And again, the relationship blew up the most AFTER that. 

[guy4caligirl]

My ex BPD always mentioned "cause and effect ", at that time in the relation I didn't think It was me but her behavior that triggered her episodes of rage due to my response at that moment .

Unfortunaly I see it now being out and almost healed ,I say almost but a year and a half latter .

I should have reacted differently like she said, instead of yelling back at me you should hug me and calm me down and tell me everything is going to be okay .

  The patience was at a minimum level at that time or that moment,  too many ups and downs, a wrong word would trigger a long hostile night ... .It was tough .

Whoever said that you can't be in the hurting stage and blame so much on yourself , I agree once you are on the way of the last period of recovery  it's noble thing to confess the mistakes you have done  to yourself and become a better person in your future relationships .

It takes two to Tango !

[cyclistIII]

I appreciate this post! A lot! Yes, I think it's always useful to look at ourselves and what we've learned and could have done better after ANY relationship, BPD or not, but hindsight is 20/20 and a lot of times we're dealing with people who were very effective at covering up their true natures for a long time. Asking "well why were you attracted to that person?" seems... .kind of insulting at times.

(Asking "why did you stay so long after things were so bad?" is potentially much more useful and important for future growth, but some of us didn't even get that opportunity -- my guy only showed his crazy as he was breaking up with me... .)

If you walked into the wrong part of town and got mugged then its not your fault you were mugged but you could have done things differently.

But that was the whole thing about this relationship for me: it wasn't the wrong part of town. It was actually a really, really REALLY nice part of town, it just had this one turning that took me to a place I didn't know my way around, and once I'd got much further in, the nice bits started to look a bit a bit crappy. But every town has slightly crappy bits, and I wasn't sure if just beyond that crappy bit it would get nice again. The towns I'm used to are like that. And to be honest, the map I had when I came in here suddenly wasn't like the maps I was used to reading, it didn't make sense and I could't find the way out. And then it was while I was in the crappy bit that I didn't plan to go to, with a map I couldn't read - that's when I got mugged.

I LOVE this!

I mean, every new relationship is like a city we've never been to before, or a movie we've never seen before where the signs are only obvious after we've seen the end.

What's particularly hard about a BPD city is it's one that said, "Welcome! Look, here's a gorgeous apartment decorated just to your liking, in your price range, and right on the bus line -- oh and hey, that dream job you interviewed for? You're totally hired!" and the neighbors were nice and everything felt really nice and really safe and then suddenly the apartment blew up and the boss started screaming at you for no reason and you were like "What the hell is going on?"

[Reforming]

Usually when something looks too good to be true - it is too good to be true.  

As some other posters have said blaming ourselves or others for what happened to us isn't really helpful. It doesn't change anything or help us change ourselves

I think it's healthy and smart to try and learn from your mistakes. People who really thrive learn to adapt and change behaviour that doesn't deliver what they need without being too harsh on themselves

For PDs that's hard, because many of them are smothered in so much shame that they struggle with self awareness, self regulation and lack the skills to learn from their mistakes and modify their behaviour.

But and I think it's a big but - changing your behaviour is not walk in the park, even for us so called NONs.

Reforming

[shatra]

Darsha 500 wrote--

Shatra wrote

----The DSM describes traits and symptoms of BPD, which are not traits of a "normal" person.

Enlighten me wrote:

You say the dsm says it's not traits of a normal person.

Shantra wrote:

That's not what I wrote.

Darsha500 wrote.

This back a forth seems unproductive, and ultimately pointless. That, however, is only my perspective.

-----It's productive because I was clarifying what I had written. The point is someone had misquoted me and (in the rest of my post which you didn't copy) I clarified the point that BPD is a serious psychiatric disorder which can be diagnosed. It is not a matter of someone's opinion of their traits, it's an actual diagnosis.

   You will see other posts in this forum with people going "back and forth", agreeing or disagreeing, and clarifying points