received my drunk apology text--thoughts?

[whitebackatcha]

It has been almost four months since my ex stopped talking to me, and ignored all contact on my part. Three weeks ago, I received a text saying that "the alcohol told [her] to say [she's] sorry [she] sucks." I said I appreciated that, made a joke about the alcohol being really good. She joked back, then said she was "going through her list of people." I said something else light, she commented about the room spinning. It seemed clear she didn't intend on expounding on the apology, and I attempted to redirect by saying, "So how do you suck?" She said "breathing in quickly."

At that point, I was done. I already felt on high alert, and was doing mental cartwheels trying to figure out how to phrase things. She is the type who will buckle down if she feels cornered. I felt following up on her comment would only cause an argument. I told her I appreciated her contacting me, that I was open to further contact, but right now, if she still felt the need to apologize when she was speaking for herself and not the alcohol, we could talk then.

No response, which I expected, I guess. I'm proud of myself for actually having boundaries. Part of me still worries I should have said something different, but I think it's really just that boundaries feel uncomfortable still for me.

Thoughts on why she did that in the first place, only to decline to contact me again when she wasn't wasted? She hates apologizing, but I've seen her do it before.

[once removed]

hey whitebackatcha 

Thoughts on why she did that in the first place, only to decline to contact me again when she wasn't wasted? She hates apologizing, but I've seen her do it before.

youre speaking to someone with a personality disorder that revolves around shame. "so how do you suck" is literally perceived as "tell me what makes you a terrible person". she responded with "breathing in quickly" which at the very least indicates an anxious reaction. you say she will buckle down if she feels cornered; she probably did.

your last message to her communicated that its best for no further contact until a future point; it did not invite a response.

[hashtag_loyal]

Just my $0.02. Take it for what it's worth:

I wouldn't accept this apology as sincere at all. She only said she was sorry while intoxicated, and even then, still qualified the apology by stating the alcohol was responsible.

A pwBPD is naturally manipulative and has most likely learned over a lifetime of survival that "sorry" is a magic word to be used to make people like you again. I, personally, wouldn't accept any apology from a pwBPD unless that person can enumerate the specific actions he/she did to hurt you.

If that is what you are looking for, I would not recommend getting your hopes up.

youre speaking to someone with a personality disorder that revolves around shame. "so how do you suck" is literally perceived as "tell me what makes you a terrible person".

This is very true. If you have future communication here, I would recommend going out of your way to focus the communication only on her actions/behavior, and avoid using negative labels or terms such as "you suck" (even if she was the one who threw them out there.)

[whitebackatcha]

youre speaking to someone with a personality disorder that revolves around shame. "so how do you suck" is literally perceived as "tell me what makes you a terrible person". she responded with "breathing in quickly" which at the very least indicates an anxious reaction. you say she will buckle down if she feels cornered; she probably did.

your last message to her communicated that its best for no further contact until a future point; it did not invite a response.

I guess I was at a loss of how to ask for clarification without putting words in her mouth. Rephrasing anything, even in a nonjudgmental way, has produced a very negative response in the past. We also have a long history of her being incredibly hurtful, and rather than me expecting her to make amends in any way whatsoever, I have ended up trying to make HER feel better. I know this is a part of the disorder, but for me/us, I saw a downfall in her sense of responsibility and making an effort the more I accommodated her. I became an enabler.

I'm trying to take your feedback as helpful, and not get defensive.   It just feels like, no matter what she says or does, there is always some reason why I did the wrong thing, and now it is my fault things are the way they are. No matter what she says or does, we now can't have a relationship literally because I used the wrong word.

[once removed]

i understand, whitebackatcha, and personally i would feel defensive. i definitely did not mean to scold you; you are dealing with mental illness and inherently, communication is tricky to put it mildly. it helps to try and put ourselves in the shoes of the other person and see it from their perspective; its also very difficult. thats what i was attempting to do, not to tell you that you were wrong. you were you. but when you interact with her, you are the only one you can control.

if i had to guess, it sounds like you got a really lame, non apology apology, and wanted a little bit of elaboration or clarity. i suspect what she gave was the best she could offer, which wasnt much, but it was what it was; the best she could do.

its not about blame or not having a relationship because you used the wrong word. its about expectations. hope that makes sense.

[whitebackatcha]

i understand, whitebackatcha, and personally i would feel defensive. i definitely did not mean to scold you; you are dealing with mental illness and inherently, communication is tricky to put it mildly. it helps to try and put ourselves in the shoes of the other person and see it from their perspective; its also very difficult. thats what i was attempting to do, not to tell you that you were wrong. you were you. but when you interact with her, you are the only one you can control.

if i had to guess, it sounds like you got a really lame, non apology apology, and wanted a little bit of elaboration or clarity. i suspect what she gave was the best she could offer, which wasnt much, but it was what it was; the best she could do.

its not about blame or not having a relationship because you used the wrong word. its about expectations. hope that makes sense.

I understand. I know all this stuff, but it's still frustrating. I know most everyone here understands! There is ALWAYS something I should have said differently, no matter how many books I read and try to absorb. She reacts to language suggested here because it feelings patronizing, if I use feeling words she says she never said that, she is just a master at finding a reason to be offended. She doesn't want anyone to expect anything of her, ever. And yes, if that is the best she can do, then that is on her. I feel wanting a sincere apology for disappearing with no explanation for over three months is fair. She knows it was wrong. I know they don't always get it, but she tends to get it in hindsight.

All I did was put myself in her shoes for the entire relationship. There is ALWAYS an excuse. There is ALWAYS a reason they couldn't do better than they did. I'm the type that accepts responsibility for things when I shouldn't, and it's hard not to hear that in these situations. I guess, with her and this relationship, she bolts when I have any boundary whatsoever, so I don't even get the chance to practice new ways of communicating. I can see how things could be, but she is triggered and doesn't have that vision. She is only seeing either abandonment or too much effort, or both. I guess I can't control that either, though.

I'm clearly venting at this point. I do appreciate your feedback. As you know, people who don't understand BPD don't understand what we're dealing with. All they see it that I finally stood up for myself, and if anything, I was a lot nicer about it than they would have been. I don't know what I would do without the perspective of this board.

[Beach_Babe]

Heres how I would have responded:

Ex: I suck

BB: ok

That was the last drunk text beach babe ever got.

[GoodThingsToCome]

Hey whitebackatcha,

I understand your frustration. I think we all do. I broke up with my ex-BPD girlfriend a year ago and I've been NC now for a few months after quite messy breakup (we owned a business together).

I faced a similar thing... .many many drunken apologies, and I fell for them many time. Till this day there is a part of me that from time to time hungers for a sincere apology (or at least an acknowledgement of her lack of accountability/responsibility)... .it's not something I linger over or something that I let control me, but it's a "need/desire" that I've compartmentalized along with the emotional scars from the relationship. I think I know deep down that the day will never come that I get this sincere apology, but I'm OK with that.

You are correct... .people who haven't been through this will rarely understand what it is like. They will find it hard to understand the emotional abuse, the walking on eggshells, and may not understand the sense of injustice that a lot of us feel in the aftermath of such a relationship. I've always said before, that going through a relationship like this and the aftermath is a bit like a prison sentence, it can be a long and lonely journey that only you can really get through. Work on yourself every day, find value in yourself (and you alone) and what you are capable of doing and giving... .the apology from them and the injustice of it all will slowly fade and become less important; time certainly does heal.

I don't want to sound like I'm preaching here. I fully understand the frustration, I was there... .so rant away, sometimes it's really needed... rant, rant ,rant! All I want to get across is that the frustration and anger is OK, but try compartmentalize it, acknowledge it when it springs up, but move on to focus on better things (i.e. you!).

Just to add to this, I recently met a girl who I am now dating (my first proper girlfriend since my ex-BPD, I took some time out to work on myself)... .she is so chilled, down to earth, caring and loving that when I look back at my previous relationship I honestly laugh. I wake up every day knowing exactly who I'm dealing with, the anxiety is gone, my life is steady and I'm happy... .I no longer deal with any unnecessary bulls**t. You too will have this I'm sure, just make sure the focus is right.

Hang in there buddy.

[whitebackatcha]

Heres how I would have responded:

Ex: I suck

BB: ok

That was the last drunk text beach babe ever got.

I actually considered that. 

[Beach_Babe]

this only  happens when they get dumped and feel alone.

[whitebackatcha]

Hey whitebackatcha,

I understand your frustration. I think we all do. I broke up with my ex-BPD girlfriend a year ago and I've been NC now for a few months after quite messy breakup (we owned a business together).

Thanks for the encouragement. I've seen her apologize in the past, and I know she can do it sincerely. She wasn't textbook in certain ways, like not flattering or asking me to save her in some way. She seemed very independent, no matter what mood she was in. I don't know, I hate that there is no way to know why they did anything, really. I don't think they all are incapable of being sorry, or actually loving someone. I should go through my books again, with fresh eyes. I'm sure I would see a lot of it differently.

I can't not hope for a sincere apology at this point. It's to accept that she can let our relationship go with no effort simply because I stopped being the one to chase. But yes, I'm definitely focusing on myself. I'm actually doing really well! The pain is compartmentalized, like you said.

It's funny what you said about your new girlfriend. Sometimes I stop and look at my friends, and I'm in awe of the fact that they are actually consistent in who they are.  

[once removed]

whitebackatcha,

it sounds to me like its less the words youre choosing, more where they are coming from; which one could summarize as "expectations".

"I feel wanting a sincere apology for disappearing with no explanation for over three months is fair. She knows it was wrong. I know they don't always get it, but she tends to get it in hindsight.

All I did was put myself in her shoes for the entire relationship."

"I can't not hope for a sincere apology at this point."

"It seemed clear she didn't intend on expounding on the apology, and I attempted to redirect by saying, "So how do you suck?" She said "breathing in quickly."

okay. you want a sincere apology - yes that is fair. it is also an expectation. she may well be incapable of offering more than she has. your feelings are quite valid - she may not be in a place (may never be in a place) to validate them. and frankly attempts to get her to are likely to frustrate/upset you even further.

what do you want from her going forward (ie a friendship, minimal contact)?

[C.Stein]

Till this day there is a part of me that from time to time hungers for a sincere apology (or at least an acknowledgement of her lack of accountability/responsibility)... .it's not something I linger over or something that I let control me, but it's a "need/desire" that I've compartmentalized along with the emotional scars from the relationship. I think I know deep down that the day will never come that I get this sincere apology, but I'm OK with that.

Sigh. I confess to having the same "need/desire" and I also realize it will never happen.

[whitebackatcha]

whitebackatcha,

it sounds to me like its less the words youre choosing, more where they are coming from; which one could summarize as "expectations".

"I feel wanting a sincere apology for disappearing with no explanation for over three months is fair. She knows it was wrong. I know they don't always get it, but she tends to get it in hindsight.

All I did was put myself in her shoes for the entire relationship."

"I can't not hope for a sincere apology at this point."

"It seemed clear she didn't intend on expounding on the apology, and I attempted to redirect by saying, "So how do you suck?" She said "breathing in quickly."

okay. you want a sincere apology - yes that is fair. it is also an expectation. she may well be incapable of offering more than she has. your feelings are quite valid - she may not be in a place (may never be in a place) to validate them. and frankly attempts to get her to are likely to frustrate/upset you even further.

what do you want from her going forward (ie a friendship, minimal contact)?

Good points. Maybe... .hmm. Maybe I could say that an expectation of mine is that she be able to handle boundaries without running away. Another is that she be able to see good intent in the face of being triggered. I'm going to think about this more. She has apologized in a sincere-sounding way in the past, so it's not resonating that she is unable to do that. Maybe the internal conflict is coming from those two expectations of mine. I WOULD say it seems she has had difficulty consistently meeting those expectations. That would explain her current behavior, especially considering the past four months, when there has been zero positive to build on, and when she left on bad terms and knows it.

What I want isn't positive, and probably isn't a good idea, but it is what it is. I have been trying to approach things by focusing on what I can control, focusing on building myself up, learning boundaries, having the life I want to live whether she is here or not, as another board member suggested awhile back. I don't want to actively pursue her or a relationship with her, but if she comes to me, I am open to her as long as my boundaries are respected.

When this topic comes up, I tend to think, "What, so we can't expect ANYTHING?" And how you're responding to that makes sense. It's not that the expectations aren't fair. It's that they're not realistic considering you you're dealing with. This is why most people come to the conclusion that leaving is the only way to stay sane.

I'm going to think about this more tonight. Thanks.

[shatra]

once wrote

okay. you want a sincere apology - yes that is fair. it is also an expectation. she may well be incapable of offering more than she has.

-----Why are they incapable of offering more. They can't say they are sorry?

  Would an apology be "enough" for you? I personally would want more than that----some actions and reversals to "make up" for the way I was mistreated. The words "I'm sorry" would not be enough. Would they be enough for you?

[C.Stein]

She has apologized in a sincere-sounding way in the past, so it's not resonating that she is unable to do that.

Just something to ponder.  My ex could issue a very sincere apology for something she did but then she would do it again, or I would find out she didn't really believe she had done anything wrong.  Point is if she doesn't believe she screwed up and takes responsibility for it and the consequences then it is worthless.  More importantly if the actions aren't there to support the words, sincere sounding or not, the apology means nothing.  :)on't get caught up in the words, actions define character.

[whitebackatcha]

  Would an apology be "enough" for you? I personally would want more than that----some actions and reversals to "make up" for the way I was mistreated. The words "I'm sorry" would not be enough. Would they be enough for you?

For me, it would open the path again for communication. That is part of how I've accommodated her BPD by expecting less. I would also have new boundaries, as I was starting to practice before she left, so she may not even be willing to stick around for that anyway.

[C.Stein]

Why would you expect less if your expectations are reasonable?

[whitebackatcha]

Just something to ponder.  My ex could issue a very sincere apology for something she did but then she would do it again, or I would find out she didn't really believe she had done anything wrong.  Point is if she doesn't believe she screwed up and takes responsibility for it and the consequences then it is worthless.  More importantly if the actions aren't there to support the words, sincere sounding or not, the apology means nothing.  :)on't get caught up in the words, actions define character.

I totally agree. That is part of why this has been so hard. If I accept what she gave as enough because she has BPD, is it being realistic, or is it enabling? There really isn't a way to know for sure either way. When I ended the conversation, it made sense to me that if she was really sorry, she would contact me again. That would be the action that would prove her sincerity. If she felt shot down and rejected in what to her was a sincere attempt, it makes sense that she might think she has no reason to try again, though. Honestly, I was never totally comfortable with how I worded my last message. I just know I did the best I could at the time in trying to be respectful, but in also refusing to argue or put my feelings out there to get shot down. But do I feel like I came across as harsh? Yes. In a relationship with someone without BPD, I would expect them to be able to look past that. It is believable to me that she is unable to. I'm just trying to figure out, as a person who only really started having boundaries in the past six months, how to respect that in a way that is still respectful of myself. Hence the rambling posts.  

[whitebackatcha]

Why would you expect less if your expectations are reasonable?

I guess because I know I can be difficult sometimes, and it's been really hurtful to me when someone hasn't given me the benefit of the doubt. I can think of all the times I was driven by emotion, and I would hope someone wouldn't shut down communication with me because I didn't have all the skills I probably should have at that point. Maybe I shouldn't view it that way, though.

[C.Stein]

I guess because I know I can be difficult sometimes, and it's been really hurtful to me when someone hasn't given me the benefit of the doubt. I can think of all the times I was driven by emotion, and I would hope someone wouldn't shut down communication with me because I didn't have all the skills I probably should have at that point. Maybe I shouldn't view it that way, though.

So what are you saying here?  That you need to expect less from her, or you need to expect more from yourself?

[once removed]

that makes sense. It's not that the expectations aren't fair. It's that they're not realistic considering you you're dealing with.

those are the magic words, and theyre better stated than mine.

my ex would rage at me, say horrible things. id, at some point, usually far too late, exit the conversation. eventually she would tell me she had "been a bad girl". she might even say "im sorry". i appreciated that but sometimes i wanted more. acknowledgment of things that were said. for her to square whether or not she believed those things about me, and if she didnt, how she could say them. most of all, for her not to do it again (she did). she would not want to discuss what she had said. why? it caused her great shame. it was received as the punitive parent in her head.

its not that this person or any other person with BPD is literally "incapable" of saying "im sorry". she did offer some form of apology. you expected more, quite reasonably, i might add and stress. as you mention, she has consistently failed to meet your expectations. she has showed you her limits. i think the lesson applies to anyone, but lets not forget that this is mental illness we are talking about; mental illness that revolves around core shame. pwBPD battle with the belief that they are "bad", and projecting that shame onto others. its hard to apologize sometimes. i think when you take those things into consideration its a mighty high obstacle.

what aspect of what you mention you want isnt positive? it all sounds positive to me.

once wrote

okay. you want a sincere apology - yes that is fair. it is also an expectation. she may well be incapable of offering more than she has.

-----Why are they incapable of offering more. They can't say they are sorry?

 Would an apology be "enough" for you? I personally would want more than that----some actions and reversals to "make up" for the way I was mistreated. The words "I'm sorry" would not be enough. Would they be enough for you?

i think thats not usually how it goes after a breakup. neither party owes the other anything at that point generally speaking.

[once removed]

If I accept what she gave as enough because she has BPD, is it being realistic, or is it enabling?

i dont see that as the dilemma. i think the dilemma is accepting he for who she is, and as she is (simpler than it sounds). not absolving her of responsibility. not saying what she did was okay or that her "apology" amounted to anything. i dont see it as enabling either as its in the past. it (she) didnt/doesnt meet your values, your standards, your expectations.

[whitebackatcha]

I guess because I know I can be difficult sometimes, and it's been really hurtful to me when someone hasn't given me the benefit of the doubt. I can think of all the times I was driven by emotion, and I would hope someone wouldn't shut down communication with me because I didn't have all the skills I probably should have at that point. Maybe I shouldn't view it that way, though.

So what are you saying here?  That you need to expect less from her, or you need to expect more from yourself?

You know, as I was typing that, I was wondering if I was meaning I preferred to resist appropriate boundaries, and that ISN'T okay. I've had a lot of narcissists in my life, so you probably know how that goes with knowing what to expect from yourself. But yes, good point.

[whitebackatcha]

If I accept what she gave as enough because she has BPD, is it being realistic, or is it enabling?

i dont see that as the dilemma. i think the dilemma is accepting he for who she is, and as she is (simpler than it sounds). not absolving her of responsibility. not saying what she did was okay or that her "apology" amounted to anything. i dont see it as enabling either as its in the past. it (she) didnt/doesnt meet your values, your standards, your expectations.

On some level, I know this is what it comes down to. I wish I had known about all this at the beginning of the relationship, but I was in a really bad place, and I can see how I ended up here. I tend to feel people mean well, and it is very hard for me to reconcile how someone can be the love of my life in so many ways, and can also have behaviors that are probably incompatible with me living a peaceful life while being with her. It is also hard for me to wrap my head around her not doing everything she possibly can to enable me to stay in her life. I can see that she probably is, but when she is hurt, she pushes away. When I am hurt, I cling. I know it's just self survival in different ways, though.

I wish they could just be mostly or all bad. It would be so much easier.

[once removed]

forgive me, i said "simpler than it sounds" and i meant "sounds simpler than it is".

have you had an opportunity to read up on radical acceptance, whitebackatcha?

[whitebackatcha]

forgive me, i said "simpler than it sounds" and i meant "sounds simpler than it is".

have you had an opportunity to read up on radical acceptance, whitebackatcha?

I understood your intent, no worries. 

I have. My issue is that I then feel like I can accept it, make peace with it, and that will enable me to stay in a relationship with her, or someone else difficult. I should probably reread about that topic now that I'm not so heavily in the FOG.

[once removed]

thats a very good point and it reminds me of good boundaries. these are very productive things youre exploring. where do we draw the line?

for example, lets say you are in some form of relationship with a person that has repeatedly busted (or tried to bust) your boundaries. itd be helpful to accept that they are a boundary buster; you dont just move your boundaries, you dont hope theyll change, try to change them, or expect they will get the hint when they consistently dont. action falls upon you in that scenario.

i can accept a persons behavior as their behavior without tolerating it.

[whitebackatcha]

thats a very fair point and it reminds me of good boundaries.

for example, lets say you are in some form of relationship with a person that has repeatedly busted (or tried to bust) your boundaries. itd be helpful to accept that they are a boundary buster; you dont just move your boundaries, you dont hope theyll change, try to change them, or expect they will get the hint when they consistently dont.

i can accept a persons behavior as their behavior without tolerating it.

True. In attempting to figure out what my values are, I decided that respect is one of the ones I don't want to waiver on. What you are saying is consistent with that value, for both parties. It occurred to me one day that the irony in my changing my boundaries to keep the relationship going, while still hoping deep down that she would eventually change, is that I think it is part of what caused the end of the relationship because she didn't feel I truly accepted her. Because really, yeah, I guess I didn't.

As hurtful as these relationships can be, they can also bring up so many of our own core issues that need to be addressed.

[C.Stein]

It is also hard for me to wrap my head around her not doing everything she possibly can to enable me to stay in her life. I can see that she probably is, but when she is hurt, she pushes away. When I am hurt, I cling. I know it's just self survival in different ways, though.

Yes, I wonder why my ex didn't do everything in her power to hold onto me.  I am the type that tends to withdraw when hurt.  I have to fight that tendency and in the beginning of our relationship I did, towards the end I didn't.   I am feeling a lot of guilt and remorse as a result.

This isn't a BPD thing I don't think, it is just a different defence mechanism.  That said, the healthy thing to do is have open and honest communication between each other.  I could never get that with my ex.  When I tried to communicate with her about my feelings she would just sit there.  She heard what I was saying but she never listened or understood.