The boys are here for the first time since the false allegations

[Family Court Strategies: When Your Partner Has BPD OR NPD Traits.]

and I am just being polite and distant.  I am not comfortable with them here at all.  :)H was tense more at the dinner table, and I kept thinking how DSS15 will be reporting that to his BPD mom (DH gets snippy when tense).

I talked with the boys' therapist today.  She said that they really don't understand all that happened here.  They don't quite get why my DD17 may be angry with them.  The therapist said that she hasn't confronted them on some things yet--like how they were so angry at DH just a few weeks ago and suddenly they aren't with no change from DH at all.  She also is only dripping out the truth of what happened--DSS15 still thinks that DH should have gone to rehab (he is not aware that DH's tests showed no drug use; his mom told him otherwise).  The therapist is treading lightly and told us that even if we tell them the truth or show them the papers before they are ready, they will shut down and disbelieve bc they will feel like we are telling them that their mom is lying (uh, she is, but ok).

The therapist also told them that the judge is letting them go to their mom's because that is what they wanted and he said he didn't "want them burning down the house"---I bet they didn't really understand the significance behind that since they don't think it was a big deal to talk with CPS.

I, in general, have a hard time when people around me have a different reality.  I am a pretty forthright person so walking on eggshells about the truth is pretty darn difficult, but I am willing.  It is easier if I am not around them too much... ..

Hopefully with the therapy and the time with DH not using drugs (ha) they will start to realize what has really happened here.  

Panda and Boss, I am really interested in how long it took for your girls to come around (and anyone else who has faced this).  It is just crazy how they can believe such big BS so easily.

(here is another crazy story--just a couple of years ago, BPD mom had them convinced that she was going to sell this painting she found at a garage sale for $25k; it never happened, and you would think with her history of crazy storytelling they would catch on at some point)

[sanemom]

and I am just being polite and distant.  I am not comfortable with them here at all.  :)H was tense more at the dinner table, and I kept thinking how DSS15 will be reporting that to his BPD mom (DH gets snippy when tense).

I talked with the boys' therapist today.  She said that they really don't understand all that happened here.  They don't quite get why my DD17 may be angry with them.  The therapist said that she hasn't confronted them on some things yet--like how they were so angry at DH just a few weeks ago and suddenly they aren't with no change from DH at all.  She also is only dripping out the truth of what happened--DSS15 still thinks that DH should have gone to rehab (he is not aware that DH's tests showed no drug use; his mom told him otherwise).  The therapist is treading lightly and told us that even if we tell them the truth or show them the papers before they are ready, they will shut down and disbelieve bc they will feel like we are telling them that their mom is lying (uh, she is, but ok).

The therapist also told them that the judge is letting them go to their mom's because that is what they wanted and he said he didn't "want them burning down the house"---I bet they didn't really understand the significance behind that since they don't think it was a big deal to talk with CPS.

I, in general, have a hard time when people around me have a different reality.  I am a pretty forthright person so walking on eggshells about the truth is pretty darn difficult, but I am willing.  It is easier if I am not around them too much... ..

Hopefully with the therapy and the time with DH not using drugs (ha) they will start to realize what has really happened here.  

Panda and Boss, I am really interested in how long it took for your girls to come around (and anyone else who has faced this).  It is just crazy how they can believe such big BS so easily.

(here is another crazy story--just a couple of years ago, BPD mom had them convinced that she was going to sell this painting she found at a garage sale for $25k; it never happened, and you would think with her history of crazy storytelling they would catch on at some point)

[Turkish]

I was going to say, "tell them the truth!" Until you wrote that the T advised against it 

As the child of a BPD mother who also has depression, I knew things weren't right from a young age. She was a single parent to me, never a boyfriend. She finally got married when I was in my late 20s. As a child, t was about survival to me. I was living in my own world. Even though I was an "old soul" I was still a child. I wouldn't expect anything more from the kids than where they are at given the moment. My mom tended to paint black any other adult of whom I'd talk kindly. I realize that is different than your situation. I'm just thinking back to how I was emotionally as a teen.

[sanemom]

Turkish,

But I remember you saying how your BPD mom was a waif... .that is ours.  And I was trying to comment on your post below about the waif alienation--it is subtle, covert, and hard to detect for a child or teen.  It IS enmeshment--the counselor described that the kids cannot disagree with BPD mom, have their own independent thoughts from BPD mom, and BPD mom is their BFF, not their parent (much like livedandlearned described under your post).  Their BPD mom frames the alienation in such a covert way--she told the therapist when they were all in family therapy together that the therapist "needed to prepare the kids for the fact that their dad would always be an addict" and the kids are all nodding in agreement.  The therapist was floored.  She has my DH's records and knows he is not an addict.  But they were all there like a Stepford family... .no one disagreeing.

The counselor is now worried for DSS17--he is with a girlfriend who is using him, and again, he is scared to disagree with her or break up with her.  The counselor is seeing how he is in the same dynamic he has with his BPD mom.

I am not sure if your BPD mom did these same things or different things, but when I read your post below, it made me wonder if your kids may be on the same path. 

And if your BPD mom DID do those things, how would a person be able to wake you up to the truth?

[Turkish]

I awoke myself up from the truth by moving out on my 18th birthday. My mom had her severe mental breakdown that summer. I have lts of stories, but being the single latchkey child of a single mother, it wasn't the same. All I can offer is that at the time, I did what I did and felt how I felt in order to survive.

I can't presume to overrule your T, since I am not one, and don't know your family. I would trust his or her advice for now. It seems to me, however, that your H needs to be a little more assertive. The CPS allegations make it harder, as does mom's enmeshment and lies, your role as a SP, and that the teens are, well, teens.

Before she left, I told my Ex that our son would likely end up with a woman like her. Kind of mean, but there was a valid trigger. It's sad that DSS17 may have paired with a girl who has issues similar to his mom. Perhaps you can share what healthy relationships should look like? Maybe the content, without the link:

The Characteristics of Healthy Relationships

[sanemom]

That is a great link... .I think it will be helpful to share eventually.

I think our first hump is just to get through the weekend with the boys without discussing anything.  One of the boys asked for that in therapy--that he didn't want to talk about it until he had at least one weekend with his dad.  I can abide by that; just hope that means he will be open later.

It is just weird how hard they want to hold on to their mom's false reality... .to believe her stories.

[bravhart1]

Out of the mouth of babes.

My at the time five year old SD told me once that she didn't want me to tell her the "truth" about something because if her mom lies to her that means she doesn't have as good of a mom as her step sisters, because she knows I would never lie to my daughters. It was just one of those things kids say that is so brutally honest that it's poignant and hits the mark perfectly.

Only time will help heal this sanemom. I feel for you, I've feel like I've been run out of my own home lately trying to keep the peace and not make waves, but my SD now 7 is trying like the dickens to make me the bad guy for mom. I'm trying not to take the bait, and I know what she's doing but it makes it very uncomfortable around here and it's very hard on my r/s with DH.

[bravhart1]

Lots of activities like movies, mini golf, and being around other people help to take the pressure off the tension. Everyone gets on their best behavior around company. Invite people over.

[Boss302]

Panda and Boss, I am really interested in how long it took for your girls to come around (and anyone else who has faced this).  It is just crazy how they can believe such big BS so easily.

They believe because they think it's their job as her kids to believe her. Demented but true. I once asked my therapist why my kids bought their mom's nonsense, and her answer was that we're hard-wired to believe our parents, particularly mom. She worked with kids who endured outright abuse that was orders of magnitude worse than anything your husband's ex has dished out to the boys, and those kids still defended their mothers. That was a pretty astounding concept for me to grasp.

I am not going to blow sunshine your way - this is going to take some time. In my case, it took years. Those first weekends were incredibly awkward, and difficult, and uncomfortable. You should see the pictures of our first Christmas after I left their mom - my favorite is D19 flipping the camera off. Ho, ho ho... .merry Christmas everyone!

It was only after "mom" revealed herself for the irresponsible pig she is that they "came around," and they endured situations no kid should ever have to deal with, like living in filth, having their home yanked out from under them (twice, in fact), having their money stolen, having to deal with their mom's constant needs, verbal abuse, health care neglect, and finally the whole college and camp fiascos. That was on top of the garden variety gaslighting, painting black, and other garbage that BPDs heap on the people unfortunate enough to be within 100 square miles of them.

And, yet, still, they feel guilty about being angry with that heap of filth who calls herself their mother and not wanting to be with her. Just yesterday D15 asked me whether it was wrong of her to not want to give "mom" a chance... .after all the utter nonsense she put the kid through. And this is a kid who has no compunction about calling her mom every nasty name in the book, often to her mom directly, has been in therapy for a long time, etc. I don't get it either. But that's the way it is.

I wouldn't discuss their mom, or anything else connected with the proceedings. There will come a time for that, but it's not now. I would be patient. Besides, they're so enmeshed right now that if you discuss anything with them, you might as well just invite dear old mommy over and discuss it with her too, because those kids will take everything right back to her.

You're OK to feel awkward and defensive right now. But I'd try to be as accepting as you can be. There was a time when I basically had to endure my kids screaming bloody hell at me, saying awful things that I never did, and even hitting me (D15 did that after mom's second eviction). I just decided to let them have it out and not say anything. I think that helped.

Try to put yourself in their shoes - as awful as this is for you, they're probably going through things that you have no idea about, and won't tell you about because they're scared to death of what dear old mommy will do if she finds out. I only found out the full extent of everything my ex put my kids through in the last year or so, and even so, I have a feeling I only know part of the story.

I know it took Panda about five years to feel comfortable enough with my kids to want to be around them on any consistent basis, and I know it's still somewhat awkward for her. Your feelings of discomfort make total sense.

The suggestion about activities was a good one. Pick something easy to do as a family, like a movie. Or... .what if you bowed out, found an excuse to do something on your own (maybe "I have to go in to the office," assuming you work outside the house), and let the boys be with their dad? Maybe that relationship has to be healed a bit before you can step back in. That was true in my case. And I had the "luxury" of them having no choice but to be with me - dear old mommy was couch-surfing, basement-surfing, bedroom-surfing and then hotel-surfing, so it was me or that. The fact that we had to live together meant we had to find a way to make things better, which we did.

Anyway, know we're all behind you. This sucks but hopefully, it isn't forever.

[Panda39]

Hi Sanemom,

I'm glad the boys made it to your house for the weekend (although awkward and uncomfortable). The threat of legal action seemed to motivate mom.

I agree with everyone else it will take time to build trust again.

This is how things with Boss and his kids looked to me as a kind of outside observer... .

During the divorce between Boss and his now uBPDxw was when things were the worst she was in full on divorce war mode and was using those girls against their dad, like Dirty Harry uses his 44 Magnum on the bad guys.

The year after the divorce was final was horribly awkward no one being themselves no one talking about anything real and meaningful... .everyone tiptoeing around the big giant elephant in the room... .the real problem... .their mother and the things they had done on her behalf.

On the plus side Boss gained 60% custody and finally could work on re-building a relationship with the girls.  The divorce also showed who both parents were... .one responsible and one a hot mess.

For me cracks in the "solidarity with mom" program began to surface about 6 months after that (1 1/2 years post divorce).  D15  could no longer deal with anything and made a suicidal comment that landed her in a inpatient psych hospital.  The stress of the last few years, the instability of her mother and stuffing her feelings could no longer be contained.  This hospitalization (family crisis) was a catalyst for action and an opening for some honest conversations.

That was the beginning of something more normal and natural.  Gradually Boss and the girls began to take those opportunities for conversations... .D19 an emotional stuffer finally blew her top (not fun but a good thing). 

Meanwhile mom continued her downward spiral... .

Things really flipped on it's ear when mom did some incredibly terrible things to the girls, D19's college fiasco and D15's trip to camp "no where" that hurt them deeply.  Boss was there to pick up the pieces in both cases.  The girls know they can trust dad and today he knows he can trust them too.

Just take your time and be as open as you comfortably can.

Panda39

[sanemom]

Panda and Boss, I am really interested in how long it took for your girls to come around (and anyone else who has faced this).  It is just crazy how they can believe such big BS so easily.

They believe because they think it's their job as her kids to believe her. Demented but true. I once asked my therapist why my kids bought their mom's nonsense, and her answer was that we're hard-wired to believe our parents, particularly mom. She worked with kids who endured outright abuse that was orders of magnitude worse than anything your husband's ex has dished out to the boys, and those kids still defended their mothers. That was a pretty astounding concept for me to grasp.

I think what bothers me here is that for 14 years, DH HAS been the stable one, and their BPD mom has been moving from job to job, boyfriend to husband to boyfriend, apartment to apartment, etc. yet they still, after all of these years, doubt my DH.  BPD mom has lied to them over and over, and what results instead of just not trusting BPD mom, they don't trust anyone--not their mom, their dad, or even the counselor. 

They are acting like nothing happened, and what the counselor wants to talk with them about next time is how one minute they are so hateful towards DH and the next session, without even seeing DH once, they are fine with him... .100% based on BPD mom knowing she has to make their relationship work or she loses the boys.  The counselor can't believe how they can do a 180 with solely input from BPD mom.

DSS17 let my middle school daughter go hang out with him and his friends tonight so I texted him a thank you.  Tomorrow I will be gone with my other DD.  I am sure we will get through this weekend ok, but I don't see how we can ignore the elephant in the room long-term.  We have security cameras all over the house now, and we have a keyed lock on our bedroom door.

Just grateful we have a counselor who is on top of this... .

[sanemom]

For me cracks in the "solidarity with mom" program began to surface about 6 months after that (1 1/2 years post divorce).  D15  could no longer deal with anything and made a suicidal comment that landed her in a inpatient psych hospital.  The stress of the last few years, the instability of her mother and stuffing her feelings could no longer be contained.  This hospitalization (family crisis) was a catalyst for action and an opening for some honest conversations.

That was the beginning of something more normal and natural.  Gradually Boss and the girls began to take those opportunities for conversations... .D19 an emotional stuffer finally blew her top (not fun but a good thing). 

Meanwhile mom continued her downward spiral... .


Panda39

I worry because of DSD somewhat--she moved a ton with BPD mom, was in poverty, had many broken promises, but still hung on tight.  So although things were crazy and chaotic, she stuck it out and is still enmeshed as all get out.

I think in some ways, this HAS been a wake-up call; unfortunately, it was on DH.  The only reason my DH fell apart was that he realized he had lost DSD--this is what pushed him to get put on an antidepressant where the side effects ended him up in the hospital (and the boys thinking he was on drugs... .ugh).  The boys know he was depressed because of losing DSD, and the counselor said that that understanding made the boys more defensive of mom and feel more in the middle (apparently we should not have told them that)

For DH the crisis now has him coping better than ever (and not on that antidepressant anymore... .).  Now that the boys are here, they can tell by his behavior that he is not on drugs and that he is fine.  Surely they will eventually start questioning that he needed 90 days of rehab as their mom has really gotten them to believe.  (example of how warped their thinking is--the counselor pointed out to DSS15 that insurance is not going to pay for treatment (such as rehab) their dad doesn't need; DSS15 then said that their dad should have paid for it out of pocket then)

If/when the boys start to question their mom's lies, she will more than likely start acting up. 

[Deb]

I think what bothers me here is that for 14 years, DH HAS been the stable one, and their BPD mom has been moving from job to job, boyfriend to husband to boyfriend, apartment to apartment, etc. yet they still, after all of these years, doubt my DH.  BPD mom has lied to them over and over, and what results instead of just not trusting BPD mom, they don't trust anyone--not their mom, their dad, or even the counselor. 

When my SD was 16 and her mom had put her through all kinds of cr*p, she turned on her dad and me and just ripped us to pieces. She said se didn't want to see us anymore. We were very hurt and sought counseling. The counselor told us that she did this because we were "safe" and she knew we loved her unconditionally. She didn't feel that with her mother. Her mother's love was flighty, fleeting and conditional. Yes, you and your DH have been very hurt. You have reason to be angry. I get that all too well. But your step sons know that they have your unconditional love. They probably know thier mother's love is very conditional. At some point, they will (hopefully) get that they DON'T have to please her; that it's not worth hurting others to gain her sick version  of love. My SD gets it. She calls me "Mom" (Her choice) and the other "my bio mom". She was 19, holding her new baby when she got it. That parental love should be unconditional.

[Panda39]

When my SD was 16 and her mom had put her through all kinds of cr*p, she turned on her dad and me and just ripped us to pieces. She said se didn't want to see us anymore. We were very hurt and sought counseling. The counselor told us that she did this because we were "safe" and she knew we loved her unconditionally. She didn't feel that with her mother. Her mother's love was flighty, fleeting and conditional. Yes, you and your DH have been very hurt. You have reason to be angry. I get that all too well. But your step sons know that they have your unconditional love. They probably know thier mother's love is very conditional. At some point, they will (hopefully) get that they DON'T have to please her; that it's not worth hurting others to gain her sick version  of love. My SD gets it. She calls me "Mom" (Her choice) and the other "my bio mom". She was 19, holding her new baby when she got it. That parental love should be unconditional.

I agree with Deb,  as messed up as it is and as twisted as it is it may be the only way the boys feel that they can have both parents (and their sister) in their life. And if I remember right mom has moved away and back again a few times.

The other dynamic I often wondered about when it's 2 kids is does one kid report (or tattle) the other kid's behavior at (in this case) dad's house to (in this case) mom ... .does one child get used to reinforce the brainwashing of the other?

It is a miserable, frustrating, and confusing place to be watching parental alienation happen.  It's hard to know what pressures are being put on these kids and what lies they are being told, understanding why they don't even believe what they have seen with their own eyes and how much of a part they themselves play in things.

As discouraging as it can feel, don't give up, and give things time.  Time for the therapist to work with the boys, time for the betrayal and hurt to start to heal, time for the boys to discover the consequences of their actions, and when they are ready time to face the truth.  

Also give mom time because if she is like Boss' ex she will shoot herself in the foot eventually.  (She nearly did by threatening to withhold visitation)

I guess "Patience" would be the word of the day and stay in the lives of those boys because even though it seems like they are rejecting you they need you and their dad too.

How is dad doing?  How does he feel the visitation is going?  What have his interactions been with the boys been like?  How is your daughter doing with this?

Keep us posted.

Panda39

[sanemom]

When my SD was 16 and her mom had put her through all kinds of cr*p, she turned on her dad and me and just ripped us to pieces. She said se didn't want to see us anymore. We were very hurt and sought counseling. The counselor told us that she did this because we were "safe" and she knew we loved her unconditionally. She didn't feel that with her mother. Her mother's love was flighty, fleeting and conditional. Yes, you and your DH have been very hurt. You have reason to be angry. I get that all too well. But your step sons know that they have your unconditional love. They probably know thier mother's love is very conditional. At some point, they will (hopefully) get that they DON'T have to please her; that it's not worth hurting others to gain her sick version  of love. My SD gets it. She calls me "Mom" (Her choice) and the other "my bio mom". She was 19, holding her new baby when she got it. That parental love should be unconditional.

I agree with Deb,  as messed up as it is and as twisted as it is it may be the only way the boys feel that they can have both parents (and their sister) in their life. And if I remember right mom has moved away and back again a few times.

It is a miserable, frustrating, and confusing place to be watching parental alienation happen.  It's hard to know what pressures are being put on these kids and what lies they are being told, understanding why they don't even believe what they have seen with their own eyes and how much of a part they themselves play in things.

As discouraging as it can feel, don't give up, and give things time.  Time for the therapist to work with the boys, time for the betrayal and hurt to start to heal, time for the boys to discover the consequences of their actions, and when they are ready time to face the truth.  

How is dad doing?  How does he feel the visitation is going?  What have his interactions been with the boys been like?  How is your daughter doing with this?

Keep us posted.

Panda39

DH would say it is going well... .they are acting as if nothing has happened now.   As soon as I got home yesterday from work, DSS15 went upstairs (he was lounging on the sofa).  I did not go out of my way to be nice to him, but I have not been ugly.  It started off awkward, but I guess once they realized we weren't going to bring it up, they started interacting more.

My DD purposefully scheduled her weekend so she would not have to be around them much, and when she has been around them for limited periods, she is ok.  Today she found a concert out of town to go to so she invited me and her boyfriend, and we went on a day trip.  Tomorrow she is going to re-do the trip she had planned last month when all of this went down, and she was forced to cancel.  Tomorrow I have to be gone all day, too.  So that means for both of my DD and me, we have had some interaction with the boys, but it has been limited.  I think I would have a very difficult time being with them all weekend and pretending nothing happened--my DH tends to be an avoider so he is better at that in general.  :-)

[ReclaimingMyLife]

Hey sanemom, I am not in your shoes and know I cannot imagine how it feels and how hard it must be.  Though I am actually here on the "Leaving" board, but had a few thoughts about the perspective of your boys. 

1)  I am a 48 year old, professional, confident, assertive woman.  Nevertheless, I got in a r/s with a pwBPD and leaving it was brutal.  I had only known him 8 months;  we never lived together;  he never met my kids;  he came to my house just once for about an hour;  I never once went to his house.  In short, despite lots of big and important gaps in our r/s, it was still one of the most intense of my life and definitely insanely hard to leave (made worse by his stalking).  I second guessed myself thru out both the r/s and the b/u.  All of this is to say, if this sporadic and short term r/s which occurred very late in my life had this much impact on me, I can only begin to imagine what it must be like to be raised by a parent with BPD.  A parent who has had free reign to impact, infiltrate and brainwash the kids.  I found my ex so confusing and doubted myself so much that I fell prey to his lies and manipulations.  And again, I am 48, well educated, confident, assertive and DID NOT LIVE WITH HIM.  And still he got in deep.  So even though the truth is obvious to you it may still be very confusing to the boys.  And even when they can see the truth, I imagine figuring out how to maneuver it is still exceptionally difficult.  It was for me.

2)  I left and do not desire to go back.  Will not go back.  Yet, still, a year out, I am trying to make sense of my experience with him.  So sometimes I read the staying board to remind myself of just how difficult living in a r/s with a pwBPD can be.  I wonder if it would be helpful for you to spend some time on the L5 Coping and Healing from a BPDParent Board.  Just to read about what it might be like for the boys to live with her and the impact she has had all day, every day of their lives. 

Just a few thoughts.  I am glad they have you and your husband and am sorry for EVERYONE (bio-mom included) that BPD is in your lives.

XOXO

[ForeverDad]

I think what bothers me here is that for 14 years, DH HAS been the stable one, and their BPD mom has been moving from job to job, boyfriend to husband to boyfriend, apartment to apartment, etc. yet they still, after all of these years, doubt my DH.  BPD mom has lied to them over and over, and what results instead of just not trusting BPD mom, they don't trust anyone--not their mom, their dad, or even the counselor.

When my SD was 16 and her mom had put her through all kinds of cr*p, she turned on her dad and me and just ripped us to pieces. She said se didn't want to see us anymore. We were very hurt and sought counseling. The counselor told us that she did this because we were "safe" and she knew we loved her unconditionally. She didn't feel that with her mother. Her mother's love was flighty, fleeting and conditional. Yes, you and your DH have been very hurt. You have reason to be angry. I get that all too well. But your step sons know that they have your unconditional love. They probably know thier mother's love is very conditional. At some point, they will (hopefully) get that they DON'T have to please her; that it's not worth hurting others to gain her sick version  of love. My SD gets it. She calls me "Mom" (Her choice) and the other "my bio mom". She was 19, holding her new baby when she got it. That parental love should be unconditional.

I agree with Deb,  as messed up as it is and as twisted as it is it may be the only way the boys feel that they can have both parents (and their sister) in their life.

I agree, I recall a passage in Richard Warshak's Divorce Poison where he described a 5 year old girl whispering to her grandmother, "Whatever I say, I mean the opposite", and then pulling away shouting, "I hate you!"  It was all to avoid the pressure and/or gain the approval of the girl's parent and the girl trusted grandma to still love her despite it all.

Another risk to the boys is that by bending now to their mother's perceptions and demands, their own worldview, perceptions, inner sense of right and wrong, true and false, is suppressed.  Think of Stockholm Syndrome, they have come to side with the pressuring person.  However, considering their years of minority time with mother, I'm surprised to see this in teens.  She must have worked very hard on them once the older daughter aged out of the family court system and as a non-working mother she sought some other way to get child support.  (Sorry, I still feel that the timing is so suspicious, SD has just started college and at virtually the same time the boys feel they must be with their mother.)

They're like leaves blown in the wind and their mother, pardon the pun, blows the most wind.  It will be hard for them in later years to objectively ponder all aspects of an issue, formulate their own judgments and stick to them without acceding to others' pressures and manipulations.

[sanemom]

"They're like leaves blown in the wind and their mother, pardon the pun, blows the most wind.  It will be hard for them in later years to objectively ponder all aspects of an issue, formulate their own judgments and stick to them without acceding to others' pressures and manipulations."

I don't think she had DSS15 believing her mess until she had them sequestered for 6 weeks... .he actually is more independent of a thinker than DSS17.  Judging from the phone records, she was working DSS17, and DSS17 dragged DSS15 into it.  In fact, DSS15 was begging me to explain to his mom that his dad was not an addict right before she seized him from our house.  I was not going to engage (and I was dealing with my own child at that moment anyway).  I don't think if I explained it would have done any good anyway... .she had her mind made up.

Maybe I am overly-optimistic, but because of that, I am hopeful that DSS15 will be thinking on his own again eventually again now that he will have time with his dad to see I was right--it was an adverse medical reaction and not because his dad was on drugs and some kind of addict.  He watched his dad for four days in a completely sound state of mind.  I wonder how much of that he will need to see to start questioning his mom's crazy thoughts.  Of course, he may have to believe the other just to feel ok with himself for how he reported his dad to CPS... .who knows.