Is this invalidating?

[Lostindirt]

My uBPD GF at times will call state that she is "a piece of S--T". Typically in episodes of self loathing. This phrase has a lot of weight in her mind because from what I know this is a phrase that her primary abuser used with her when she was a child, it really triggers me when she says that about herself, and I always tell her she is not and make her promise not to say that about herself.

Up until now I've always thought this was the right thing to do, in order to support her and because I feel like it helps to put that thought process and perseverating on self loathing in check (this only seems to work when she is sober). I read a comment in a post discussing a SO w/BPD where the BPD individual referred to themselves as worthless and someone said that it was invalidating to counter their negative self talk. Maybe the way I did it was wrong as I write this I can think of more constructive ways to counter that like, "I don't think that about you, and no one who really knows you could." But I am really having trouble seeing where countering that invalidates them. It seems to me that they are starting off invalidating themselves and either looking for agreement so they can believe it or hoping for it to be countered to find some relief from the self critic.   

What do you think?

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[wundress]

I'm going through something similar with my wife. I've been reading some of the books list on this website. From what I can gather it is invalidation to disagree with the statement also you can't say "yes you are a piece of... ."  Better to say "I can hear that you saying you are a piece of... ." then start asking questions why she feels like this.

With my wife I have found acknowledging what she says and then asking her why she feels that way gets a good reaction. And frankly, if she starts talking about the way she has treated me I don't disagree with her. I let her see that I have been upset but then ask whether there is anything we could do to change it.

I've noticed that as soon as the other person has to engage their brain and start thinking about answers to the questions it distracts them from the oringal negative thoughts. It works with my daughter and my mum too.

[waverider]

Just flat out countering is to them like saying shut up, I dont want to hear it, you are wrong, and your opinions are invalid... but in a polite way.

The second  way you phrased it is stating your truth from where you see it, which is the T part of using SET. The S & E part of it would be along the lines of, "It sounds like you are down on yourself, I can see how that makes you feel worthless... " This shows you are listening to what she is saying and that you can see it is affecting her...

Your reassurance should then be to state your view on things, as opposed to telling her how it is regardless of how she is feeling. You can't expect her to suddenly stop in mid emotion and suddenly say... "ok you are right I am just being silly". She has probably had that lecture all her life and that would just remind her that she is "useless'

[Chilibean13]

When my uBPDh says negative things about himself, I try to lead him to the right answer. Instead of countering him with "No you aren't" I instead first ask why he thinks he is a bad person. Then ask him what a good person looks like. The when he answers that I remind him about a time when he did/said/acted like the good person. With the question, so does that mean you can behave good and bad?

I've learned that when I  try to fix him I get no where. So instead I try to support him in trying to fix himself.

[waverider]

I've learned that when I  try to fix him I get no where. So instead I try to support him in trying to fix himself.

This pretty much the core message of how to help a pwBPD, stops us from going nuts too.

[an0ught]

My uBPD GF at times will call state that she is "a piece of S--T". Typically in episodes of self loathing. This phrase has a lot of weight in her mind because from what I know this is a phrase that her primary abuser used with her when she was a child, it really triggers me when she says that about herself, and I always tell her she is not and make her promise not to say that about herself.

[... .]

What do you think?

1) Making her promise anything is by definition controlling. And controlling is almost always invalidating.

2) Telling her something that she for whatever reasons feels at a certain time is not right is invalidating.

3) And she telling herself that she is a piece of S--T is self invalidating.

She invalidating herself-->gets agitated-->you trying to save her from herself, invalidating her-->she feeling broken--> [repeat and escalate until relationship broken]

Lot's of invalidation going on. That is typical (there is the other variant that starts off by not self invalidating but directly invalidating the partner).

Breaking this circle of invalidation is key in getting out of this trip to Oz and with realizing what you contribute you have done a major step  

I think ideally one gets not too directly involved and has a boundary when it comes to deep core issues of shame. Leaving that for a therapist to explore. In any case treat carefully - there is not a quick fix and the root may be deep. Not all of us have the luxury to keep these issues at bay as we are confronted by disturbing symptoms like vocal self flagellation, self mutilation or self destructive food (non-)consumption.

We need to hear it out once in a while but then we also need to protect ourselves from listening too often as it is painful to witness how a loved one self destructs. A validating way to respond could be e.g.:

-"You have a bleak view of yourself".

-"Liking yourself is hard for you".

-"Wow, struggling to cut yourself some slack".

[Lostindirt]

This came up tonight and went like this:

(We were discussing a friend of mine who had a ridiculous list of requirements for choosing a girlfriend)

Her: "Good thing you didn't have a list like that or else we would have never gotten together... ."

Me: Why do you say that?

Her: "Because I'm a big loser... ."

Me: "I know you have trouble seeing the good in yourself, but I don't think you are a loser at all.  I love you."

Her: (crying) "I love you too."

Me: "Why do you feel that way?"

Her: "Because I can't do anything."  (she has been crippled by the anxiety and depression) 

Me: "You're a beautiful work in progress."

Her: (more tears)

Hopefully more validating. Thanks for the good suggestions. an0ught Working things out in therapy? I wish she would go let alone work them out.

[cosmonaut]

Yeah, it's invalidating, but I can certainly understand why you would say it.  Unfortunately, you're on a rational level (she's not a piece of crap; that's distorted thinking), but she's on an emotional level (she feels like a piece of crap).  pwBPD have special needs in relationships.  Usually what is most needed is to recognize and empathize with the underlying emotion.  There is some reason that your gf feels like a piece of crap in that moment, and that's really what she wants addressed.  She wants you to help soothe that pain and shame that she is feeling, because she has trouble doing that herself.  Validation is very soothing.  Try to see the emotion and then empathize with how hard, scary, frustrating, shameful, overwhelming, or whatever it is must be.  She needs you to feel not think.

[waverider]

This came up tonight and went like this:

(We were discussing a friend of mine who had a ridiculous list of requirements for choosing a girlfriend)

Her: "Good thing you didn't have a list like that or else we would have never gotten together... ."

Me: Why do you say that?

Her: "Because I'm a big loser... ."

Me: "I know you have trouble seeing the good in yourself, but I don't think you are a loser at all.  I love you."

Her: (crying) "I love you too."

Me: "Why do you feel that way?"

Her: "Because I can't do anything."  (she has been crippled by the anxiety and depression) 

Me: "You're a beautiful work in progress."

Her: (more tears)

Hopefully more validating. Thanks for the good suggestions. an0ught Working things out in therapy? I wish she would go let alone work them out.

Thats good, you showed interest in her opinions, and acknowledge the impact they have, and told her how she appears to you. Without telling her she is faulty for thinking that way... I bet it was a whole lot less frustrating for you too